0:00 Who are you? And where are you going? What do you [Music] want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemel, and we're here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about all matters relating to estate planning and trust in estate administration. Uh both from the standpoint of your own
0:36 situation as well as for professionals like me who help people uh with with their estate plans and and the administration of estates and trusts. So today I'm going to be talking about um leaving a legacy through uh charitable giving that's in your estate plan. And I I I think uh hopefully a lot of uh estate planning attorneys um talk about this. Um I I I haven't been able to get a sense of of how often they do. Uh I I
1:13 think um many times unless the person who's having the estate plan done raises the question, I'm not sure it gets discussed. Um but but I think it's it is it is important no matter what the size of your estate. So you may have a a fairly modest estate um and and yet um you may have some uh very uh profound wishes um in terms of leaving some kind of legacy by making
1:48 some final charitable donations. And so um you know it's important that those be um embedded into your estate plan. So, gener there there are many different uh vehicles for for doing so. And I'm going to talk about some of those. I'm going to start out by reminding everybody I'm I'm not a lawyer. I'm not an accountant. So, I'm not giving either legal or accounting advice. This is just general information for you so that you can understand what some of your options
2:23 may be. And then from there, I I encourage you to talk to your advisors and and work with them to make sure that your wishes get fulfilled. So, I I want to start by um talking about um why you may want to make some some charitable why you want to make may want to make charitable giving uh in have that be a part of your estate plan. And I think that um first of all, there's personal fulfillment. Um you may
2:58 have been a long-term donor to a particular charity. And again, no matter what the scale of that donation, uh it's it's important. Now, um, speaking as someone who's been involved in numerous charitable organizations, um, often times it's it's not the size of a contribution that is the sole value of that contribution. So uh what's also important is the fact
3:34 that a contribution is being made because the number of donors supporting a cause uh is important especially if that organization is going out and and writing uh writing for grants uh from from grtor uh organizations. So that's uh an important consideration. So, uh, if if you've been a longtime donor to a particular charity, so you count among those people and and you might, you know, you might be tempted to say, well, it's, you know, it's it's just me only one out of tens,
4:12 hundreds, thousands, no big deal. But in fact, if everybody takes that attitude, so then as as as the organization's current donor base starts dying off, the ability for that organization to raise money uh may be attenuated as well. And along with the number of people is the frequency of donations. So a lot of charities ha have create plans where uh donors can make a small uh or a
4:48 smaller monthly contribution as opposed to one annual contribution and again the number of people who do that and create that regular income stream for the organization can be very important. So while uh grants as another source of income to a charity will uh sometimes allow a certain percentage of the grant to be used toward overhead. Um much of what is raised through grants cannot be
5:23 used for overhead. So just the sort of cost of office space keeping the lights on so to speak uh salaries for administrative people. Now, to delve into this just a little bit more, um, unfortunately, uh, some charitable organizations use a very high percentage of their contributions toward overhead. I think that's problematic. So, uh, and I'm not going to get into that too much, but you know, if an organization certainly 10% of an organization's contributions toward overhead is
6:01 is frankly outstanding. Most organizations, their overhead is not that low, but even 15 or 20% um is in in many cases would be quite reasonable. Having said that, raising those overhead funds can be difficult and that's why uh charities start programs where people can make monthly contributions. Typically those monthly contributions are going to sustain the regular overhead of the organization office space again office space admin
6:37 administrative personnel etc. So um they can be very important for the survival of the charity. So, uh, you know, continuing to make those contributions and continuing to make them with the same frequency as as you did when you know when you were alive can be an important component of your estate plan. So, it can also help you preserve your legacy. So uh in Judaism there's a a thought or a philosophy that
7:14 um while a person may be have died um they remain alive in in the minds and hearts of their their family their loved ones friends and that can include a charitable organization. So it's it's a way of of of keeping your memory alive of of making sure that which you valued is is continuing continued to be supported. So um you know again if you have religious beliefs or or other personal beliefs if you um feel very
7:50 strongly about taking care of animals for example um making sure that your that the charities that you have historically supported or or maybe you're going to find uh you know a new charity um something like that that that aligns with your beliefs making sure they're supported as part of your estate plan can be very very beneficial and can uh hopefully give you some comfort as as you face you know this this this the sort of inevitable event in our lives
8:26 that of as Shakespeare said shuffling off this mortal coil. So, so I think those are those are the benefits of charitable giving in in your estate plan. And there are several ways uh to to do these uh to do the the charitable giving. So, first of all, you can make a specific bequest in a will or a trust. So, um these typically take the form of some sort of fixed amount. So, you know, for example, you might give, you know, $1,000. I'm just using that number,
9:03 $1,000 to your church or synagogue. Uh um you know, upon your death, that might be in your will. Or if you have a trust, okay, you can do the same. You can put that same bequest in your trust and then your trustee is obligated to see to it that that bequest is fulfilled. You can also leave specific assets to a charity and I I'm going to talk about the tax benefits of doing that. But, you know, you may have a car and your beneficiaries may all have cars and so there's no necessity of leaving them
9:40 another vehicle. You can leave it to a charity and and they can sell it or or maybe they can make use of it. Maybe they m, you know, maybe you have, you know, a minivan or an SUV or something and and they can make use of it. Maybe the charity is something involving um senior citizens or children and and they need to be transported and so your vehicle could be used to do that. So that and that's just one type of asset. You can leave u certain portions of your of any securities that you have, stocks, bonds, etc. Uh you could leave a
10:15 specific bank account. Uh again, furniture, whatever whatever it is that you uh you have you if it will benefit the charity, you could leave it to them. I know for myself, um I have a a large uh library of books on World War II, and one of the things I'm thinking about doing is finding a World War II museum that might like to have the books. So, um, you know, because I I'm I'm not under any illusion that anyone I would leave them to would would, you know, would like to have them. Uh, I I I I
10:50 think I'm one of the few people alive who still likes, you know, books and paper books and hardcover books. But but in any event, you know, you may have a collection of something and your children may have no uh interest in in that. And so it it but there may be an organization that would uh really like to have that as part of their uh legacy or as part of their mission. And so you know you could make that the quest uh in your will or trust as well. So so that's
11:26 that's one and that's a very straightforward way of doing things. Um, I I would add that, you know, you you also could make some of these donations prior to your death. Um, if you're looking to downsize your life, um, and if you, um, recall the two or three shows I did with Hillary Cooper at Unluttered, that was one of the things um, she mentioned was one of the ways of downsizing is is perhaps donating some things to charity while you're still alive. and and and it can still be thought of as as you know part of your
12:02 estate planning. Okay. So um you can also make a residual bequest. So this would be a percentage of your estate after other distributions are made. So, you know, perhaps um you know, you're going to distri, by the way, I I don't recommend this, frankly, but perhaps you're going to distribute, you know, a house that you own to one heir and a a a you know, a securities portfolio to another one, and you're going to have some, I don't know, bank accounts left
12:37 or whatever. And you may say, okay, and so, you know, 25% of the balance of my estate after these distributions will go to, you know, the following charity. That's one way of handling it as well. Okay. Certainly, if you're going to do any kind of residual bequest, you want to make sure that it's set up in a way that's not going to cause disputes and and the distribution I just s suggested where one asset goes to one heir and another asset goes to another heir. that's really uh it's it's it's it's
13:13 really uh ripe for causing disputes um if any assets have to be sold prior to your death. So, I can't encourage you enough to get sound advice uh when you um you know when you're setting up your estate plan in terms of how you're dividing up your estate among your heirs. Okay. But a residual bequest is another way of of seeing to it that uh there's some kind of charitable giving um you know in your estate plan.
13:50 Okay. So bequests in a will or trust whether it's a spec specific or residual bequest. That's one way of handling things. Another way of handling things is what's called a charitable remainder trust. So a charitable remainder trust provides income to beneficiaries uh for for the beneficiary's life or for a specific term of years and then the remaining assets in the trust go to the charity when the term of the trust ends.
14:25 Okay. So the trust becomes a a a separate entity. Okay. and you transfer, you know, you may you may have a again a securities portfolio and it may be generating a certain amount of income uh you know each year and that you may distribute that income to to your heirs or or whomever your beneficiaries are and and it may be for for how long they live. It may you know until they live until they die or it may be they're going to get it for 10 years or 20 years. Maybe they're your children and
15:01 you want to make sure that your children have there's adequate funds for your children to be raised. Um go to college, go, you know, get set up in a business, go to go to a trade school, whatever it is. Um and then, you know, once they're, you know, kind of set up, you you know, you it may be that you don't want them to to continue to uh you know, get an income. You want them to stand on their own feet. And so at the at the at the end of the term of the uh beneficiaries getting the income from the charitable remainder trust then what's left in
15:38 terms of assets goes to the charity. Okay. And especially if you have a larger amount of assets, this can be a very good way of both uh benefiting your your heirs or your bene you know the bene your beneficiaries um as well as making a a potentially large charitable contribution. Okay. The sort of the flip side of that is something called a charitable lead trust. And this in this case the charity gets the income from
16:16 the trust for a set period of time and then after that period of time ends the uh your your your remaining assets go to your beneficiary. Okay. So charitable remainder trust your beneficiaries get the income. The charity gets what's left after at at the time the trust ends. the trust term ends. Charitable lead trust, the charity gets the income for a a period of years for whatever the term of the trust is. And when the trust term
16:52 ends, then your beneficiaries get the money. So they're kind of opposite sides of the same coin, you might you might say. Okay. Now, both of these are more sophisticated estate planning. They're they're more sophisticated estate planning vehicles. Okay. and uh and so um they they are going to take you know working with an estate planning attorney to set them up. Um you're probably going to need to have some sort of financial advisor involved as well. So, especially if it's going to be any kind of financial assets, uh whether
17:28 it's bank accounts, you know, again, securities, whatever you you f whatever you fund the trust with, um all of that needs to be thought out in advance to make sure it's all set up in a way that that it's actually going to work according to your wishes uh on once you pass away. Okay. So again, charitable remainder trust, charitable lead trust, it the distinction between the two is really who gets the income and who gets the uh remaining assets after the trust term ends. Okay. So I want to take a
18:04 break here for just a couple of moments and I want to mention um that uh first of all this is Trust and Estates Weekly um and one of the Way to Wow shows. We're here every Monday at 10 a.m. Pacific time to talk about matters relating to estate planning and trust and estate administration. And especially if you're a professional, uh you may want to consider joining my uh LinkedIn group called Trust and Trust and Estates uh experts. And and this is a group of people who from from all sort
18:41 of walks of life within um the estate planning and administration area. and and we have a a group where we can you can post a question especially if it's something out of your area of expertise. So maybe you're a lawyer and you have an accounting question or vice versa. So you can post a question and people in the group as a matter of professional courtesy will uh respond to your questions. Also if you like me uh develop content related to estate planning and trust and estate
19:17 administration. So this is another place where you can get exposure for your content. I have a couple of people who pretty regularly uh post in in the group uh and um and and their topics are always of interest. one is um Lori Israel who does prenuptual agreements which although isn't exactly estate planning per se can play a role in it depending on what the situation is. So if you'd like to be a member of trusts and estates uh experts my LinkedIn group just go to LinkedIn search that name
19:52 click on the button asking to be admitted to the group and I I will admit you and would love to have you in the group. Uh so okay so again trust and estates experts on uh on LinkedIn. So going back now to our discussion about charitable giving through estate planning leaving a legacy. Uh um we I talked about uh two ways of making charitable uh contributions. One is a bequest in a will or trust. Uh, another is a charitable remainder trust or a
20:28 charitable lead trust. Okay, which are separate vehicles that you set up to do your charitable giving. Another is a donor advised fund. So, in a donor advised fund, um you make a contribution to uh to a charity or to a foundation um and you receive um an immediate tax benefit when you make the donation and then you can recommend grants over time. So, uh, the end of
21:04 last year, I believe it was December 30 23rd, I did a whole show on, um, on qualified charitable distributions and donor advised funds. And so, I'm going to put a link to that show in the show notes for this this for this episode. And if you are interested in having more information about donor advised funds, I invite you to check out my other show. Um, again, it it goes in depth uh on on this particular vehicle and it can be
21:39 less expensive to set up than a charitable remainder trust or charitable lead trust because in essence you're donating uh money to an organization that that specifically uh handles making uh charitable donations essentially on your behalf. Okay. Now, there are certain restrictions and such, and that's why, again, if you're going to consider doing something like this, you're going to want to get accounting and legal advice to make sure it's all set up correctly and you don't end up, you know, causing a some sort of tax
22:15 problem for yourself or for your estate. Okay. And then, excuse me. Finally, the the last um option that I have here for charitable giving in your estate plan is beneficiary designations. So, you have may have a life insurance policy or a retirement account or a bank account or an investment account. All of those allow you typically to make to appoint what's called a beneficiary at death or on death. And what that means is the the funds or securities in that
22:53 account will go to the beneficiary at the time of your death. Now, it's it's not automatic. There's there's usually paperwork that has to be filled out. Um, but the reality is a beneficiary on death designation happens outside of the probate process. Uh, so and it also happens outside of your trust. So you don't have to rely on the trustee fulfilling your wishes. You don't have to rely on the administrator of your estate in probate if you're
23:29 going that route to handle it. Uh, basically the beneficiary and they should be told they should be told if they're a beneficiary on death. they contact the institution uh at at which the uh account is housed or or the insurance policy uh you know is is is held and and there's usually a separate department there to handle such things and the people in that department will you know give them the paperwork that they need to fill out and sign. Usually requires a copy of a death certificate, a certified copy. Okay. And once all
24:04 that paperwork is in, it usually doesn't take very long and then the funds are uh distributed uh to to the beneficiary. So you can make a charity a beneficiary on death. It doesn't have to necessarily be a natural person. It it charities typically are organized, excuse me, as 501c3 uh organizations, typically a corporation. And so they too can be named a beneficiary on death. And and again, this is a a you know, a potentially excellent way to make sure
24:39 that your charitable wishes are fulfilled without having to rely on a trustee or an administrator, personal representative to to make sure it happens. Now, I know in in in my case as a professional fiduciary, when I have when I have an account in an estate that has a beneficiary on death, I will help the beneficiary with the process of the
25:15 paperwork. Pardon me. um I'll I'll help them with the paperwork. Most people are not, you know, familiar with this this process and and so they can use a helping hand and it's just, you know, it's just part of the the the the service that I give as a professional fiduciary. Uh but um you know, others may not handle it that way. They might just say, "Hey, you know, you're you're a beneficiary on death. Here's here's the financial institution have at it and good luck." uh but in any event um it it is a way to again ensure that your
25:51 charitable wishes are fulfilled. Okay. So those are uh those are some ways that you can um actually the the sort of the mechanics of of making a a charitable contribution um in your estate plan. So next I want to talk about the tax implications of charitable giving. Now of course your individual situation is is is going to be unique and this is why you want to make sure you get proper accounting and legal advice. Uh but but in any event uh like when you give a
26:28 charitable contribution while you're alive and you can get a tax deduction for that. Uh although these days the u you know the automatic exemptions are so high it may not be relevant. Uh but an estate too that makes a charitable contribution may get a reduction in the estate tax liability for that charitable deduction. And so, you know, for example, uh you may you may have an estate that's worth uh $15 million. Uh and uh and you may be a, you
27:04 know, single individual and the uh the exclusion from a state tax uh limit this year is probably going to be around $14 million. It was about 13.6 last year. So it would be somewhere around $14 million. So if you have a $15 million estate, uh you may be liable for estate taxes on the million dollars over over and above the exclusion. So in that case, you may decide, you know what, for for every dollar I give to the charity,
27:40 I save, you know, uh 40 cents in estate taxes. So, excuse me. If I give, I don't know, a half a million dollars to a charity, right? Um, 200,000 of that is is basically money that otherwise would have gone to to the federal government in the form of estate taxes. So, uh you might again you might be able to reduce your estate tax liability by making some charitable donations. Okay. There can also be potential income tax
28:15 benefits uh for the heirs. Um and and again that'll depend on their uh you know their particular tax situation. Uh but um if if the estate for whatever reason uh does doesn't need the charitable contributions, it it may be possible to pass them uh to the heirs when the when the estate closes. Again, this is something that that you need to get accounting and legal advice on. Okay. And then finally, there may be capital uh gains tax advantages
28:50 uh to the estate by donating uh appreciated assets. So, uh let's take that car that I mentioned earlier. Maybe it's a particularly nice car um and it's and it's appreciated in value. Maybe it's, you know, some kind of collector's car. I don't know, a Ferrari or something like that, right? So, uh, in that case, you know, you may have originally bought the car for, let's say, $150,000. Now, it's worth $500,000, right? So, uh, you know, that donating that car
29:26 could um there could be capital gains tax advantages um to doing so. Um, and and and again, this is a a pretty sophisticated level of tax planning. So, you'd want to get advice from from your accountant and and your lawyer. And if, by the way, if they're not sophisticated enough to advise you on this, then, you know, look beyond them. Um, you know, you might uh consider, for example, contacting my friend uh uh Jacqueline Yu. um and and and this would be the kind of thing that
30:01 she'd be able to advise you on or for that matter u my friend Roy Gia who's an accountant handles uh estate tax um uh estate tax returns very complicated ones. Okay. So um what is the the right strategy? Well, um first of all, um you need to start out by assessing your financial and philanthropic goals. So, uh you know, what do you want to do with your estate? Okay, what kind of legacy do you
30:37 want to leave? And no one can answer that for you. That's something you're going to have to decide for yourself or decide in conversation with your spouse if you're married or your children, especially if you have adult children. Okay? All of all of this um um needs to be discussed, thought about, etc. And and by the way, especially if you have adult children, I I highly recommend that you discuss this with them so that they understand your wishes
31:15 and under um they understand why you're doing it. so that um hopefully they will not feel uh like I don't know you're slighting them or you're you know reducing their legacy in in favor of a charity or something like that. Uh so you want to socialize it with them and I'm not saying you need to get their consent. Of course you don't. Um but it's always better for potential heirs or actual heirs to understand your
31:50 wishes. Um that that can um lead to um a that that can that can tend to reduce the opportunity for conflict. Okay. So talk about it, think about it, get information on the various options. That's why I'm doing this show. Okay. And then after you've had some time to discuss it, talk to talk to your advisors about it. Talk to your uh your estate planner, your lawyer, your
32:25 accountant, uh your financial advisors, and again, socialize with them your thinking in terms of charitable giving. You don't need to make decisions the first time you speak with them. uh you know, but you do want to get their advice. Um they're going to know better your individual situation and so they're going to be able to give you specific advice on what vehicles may work for you based on how large your estate is, based on what your other commitments may be,
33:01 and and so they can start narrowing down options or maybe expanding options. Okay, I'm not I'm this show isn't intended to be, you know, exhaustive in terms of how to handle this. It's it's really designed to get you thinking about this as an aspect of estate planning. Okay? And then as you develop your plan, you know, you want to ensure that your your legal obligations, your tax obligations, your moral obligations are all aligned with what you know with your wishes. Okay? And so the plans are going to uh you know
33:40 evolve over time. And that's why really the sooner you get started with this the better because it's not these are not decisions that you want to make quickly. You want to take time to think them through to talk to other people to reconsider. maybe have additional conversations and really give it some time to to stew until it germinates into a plan that really reflects your wishes. Okay. And so that's that's how that's the strategy here. And then uh you know in terms of
34:17 sort of actual implementation so you know you want to identify the charities or the charitable organizations that you want to support. Okay. Again, may as I mentioned in the beginning, maybe it's an organization with which you've been involved for a long long time. Great. So, you know them. You may you may know the people involved. Terrific. And and so you can bring them into the conversation. Maybe there's some new organizations. So maybe your your feeling is that you know at the time you pass away maybe your children are in you know
34:52 pretty good financial shape and you don't have a spouse or your spouse will be well provided for and so you're going to have some additional funds uh for charitable giving and and that being the case perhaps you you know want to consider more than one charity. uh maybe you have more than one charitable interest or maybe you want to spread, you know, your your contributions among more than one charity in the same area. Again, all of that's part of the thinking through process. So, but at some point, you're going to need to identify the actual charities that you want to support. You're going to need to
35:28 then you're going to want to go on to determine what is the best way to do so. what vehicle, whether it's a again a bequest, a trust, a donor advised fund, whatever you're going to do. Okay? And then, you know, at that point, your legal and financial and accounting advisors are going to need to be consulted on the specifics of what you want to do so that they can draft um the documents that are necessary in order to make this part of your plan come to fruition at the proper time. And then you know once the documents are set up
36:04 you you you know you're if you haven't done so previously again highly recommend that you communicate your intentions to your family your beneficiaries to the charities themselves uh so that they know what's going on and try and reduce potential conflict that would arise out of your plan. And so uh again uh going back to the the the core of of today's show and that is I think uh many of us would like to leave
36:40 some kind of legacy. Um and it's not money is money is a part of our legacy but ideas values uh are are also a large part of our legacy. And so if we're going to uh do that in the best way possible, then we need to think it through as part of our estate plan and and and get clear on our own minds first and foremost how we want to handle this and then talk to those concerned.
37:15 Uh again, our our our family beneficiaries and our adviserss about what you think you want to do, what it's possible for you to do, uh what potential conflicts may arise so that your wishes can be best fulfilled. And and and again, I encourage you to get started on this as as soon as possible because the more time you have to consider it, the better your plan can be. So, uh, charitable giving through estate planning, it it can create a lasting legacy for you. I know, uh, one
37:50 of the organizations that I was involved with for many, many years, it's called Step Up on Second. It was it was started by a woman named Susan Dempsey. I met her many, many years ago at a service at my synagogue. she came to speak about taking care of the homeless and I was so impressed by what she said I called her up um I think the following week and said hey I'm in the real estate business if there's any ever any way I can help you I'd be happy to you know pro bono um and interestingly enough not too long
38:25 after that um Susan called me and she um asked me if I could help them find another place to house themselves because their current location was going to be turned down, torn down and permanent housing for homeless people was going to be built on that site on Second Street in Santa Monica, hence the name Step Up on Second. And so I I it was an interesting situation because you might think, well, Santa Monica, very favorable area for the homeless. And and this is this is
39:01 back in the uh um late late 1980s. Uh I had a devil of a time finding someone who would rent them space. Finally did. We relocated them. They built their facility, moved back in, and the fee I got for uh finding them the space, I donated to the organization uh just so they had some additional cash. And um when they moved back into their new facility, they created a donor wall. And much to my surprise, I
39:37 appeared on the donor wall for having, you know, given them my fee. Um and this is a treat for me. Those of you who've seen my show, Jiggers's Place, you know one of my all-time favorite TV shows is Hogan's Heroes. So, not far from my name on the donor wall was the name of Verer Clamper, who plays Colonel Clink on Hogan's Heroes. Um, what I didn't learn until many many many years later was that uh Verer Clamper was Susan Dempsey's ex-husband and they had they even after um they got divorced, they
40:13 stayed in touch and and he continued to support her work. So um from from my perspective to be on a donor wall with uh someone whose work I so admire and who was as uh charitable as uh Verer Cleer was uh you know it it it's it's a for me it's my legacy is is being uh maintained. I really all I did was offer to you know help this charity out. So there's I I but I do find it very fulfilling uh that that this is the
40:49 case. And so uh again I I I encourage you to think about it uh and and and and take action uh if if if if it's important for you to support charitable organizations. So I thank you very much for joining me today. Uh, tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. uh, Pacific time is my show, Business Lessons from the Military, and my topic is pivot or surrender. I'm going to be talking about the battle for Appamatics
41:25 Courthouse, which you may recognize is a famous battle from the American Civil War. And so I hope you'll join me to learn uh what business lessons we can from uh from this uh one of the last battles of the American Civil War. And then on Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show, People Making Money. And I'm going to be talking about how to dress for success. So I think it's very important. You you can see the way I dress, right? So uh I'm I'm I'm somewhat old-fashioned, I guess. I I wear a tie
42:00 when I present to you out of respect for you, my viewers. Um, and and maybe uh that's Pay nowadays. Uh I I would argue not. But in any event, I'm going to talk about the many issues there are to dressing for success. And then on Thursday at 5:00 p.m. Pacific time is my every other week show, Jiggers's Place. and I'm going to be talking over a cocktail about biblical commandments. So, the Jewish holiday of Passover starts Saturday night. So, this is a kind of an auspicious time to talk about
42:37 this particular issue. We we call them commandments, but I would suggest to you that that that's really a shorthand term that's not particularly appropriate. So, I hope you'll join me at at Jiggers's place on Thursday afternoon or Thursday at 5:00 p. p.m. Pacific time. And then a week from today, uh, will be the next edition of Trust and Estates Weekly. So, thank you so much again for joining me, especially my live guests. Really appreciate it. And wishing you a wonderful rest of the day. Signing off
43:12 as I always do. Uh, Marie, sorry. I was going to get them backwards. Marie, darling, you're my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.