0:14 hello and welcome to business lessons from the military I'm your host Kevin demmel and we are here every Tuesday morning well Tuesday Morning West Coast time 11 A.M we're uh two o'clock uh on the east coast and and now we're in for Central and mountain time and I am very very excited to welcome back to the way to wow shows um my my friend Mark Brooker um retired Navy Captain um and and Leadership expert and and before
0:49 um I I start talking to Mark I just want to remind you that um tomorrow is my show um people making money and my guest is Laura Israel she's a lawyer who's dealt in the family law arena for many many years and she's going to be talking on the subject of marriage and money and if if you have been married then and you know that that's that that's just a an area Rife for conflict but it can also of course through the through the dealings through monetary dealings bring
1:24 a couple closer together so I invite you to join us tomorrow at 12 30 p.m Pacific Time 3 30 p.m eastern time uh to um to listen to a woman who has spent her entire career uh dealing with these issues and while I say she's been in family law she's really been on the side of it of working to keep marriages together and mediate disputes in order to create harmonious relationships so she has not been you know on the opposite of of you know facilitating the
1:59 breakups of of marriages so I want to want to mention that to you um so you can put that into your calendars um right away now turning to my guest Mark so um Mark was uh um in the Navy for gosh 30 years right correct yeah um and his his sort of uh crowning achievement in addition to rising to the rank of Captain was to be the um commanding officer of of a naval hospital
2:34 um I'm sure Mark will talk a little bit about that as we address the subject but since um retiring from the Navy Mark has really spent his time diving ever more deeply into the subject of leadership and taking the the the study and the Practical lessons he learned as a leader in the United States Navy and bringing them to people in in the civilian world to our fellow our fellow citizens and and giving them the benefit of all that
3:10 he learned during those decades uh in the American Military um and and Mark has wrote a number a few years ago now wrote a book on um Leadership Lessons From the Navy and I'm I'm sure Mark will mentioned that we'll put a link to that book in the show notes um but uh first of all Mark welcome to business lessons from the military thanks for joining me well thanks Kevin I really appreciate it it's great to see you again and uh be back on your show really thrilled to be here man yeah so um whereas last time you were on the show we really kind of talked about your
3:45 you know your professional Arc if you will to today I really want to focus on lessons of leadership that that you learned you know in the Navy that that people can apply to their civilian businesses to working in non-profits even in working in Academia I I think that um so much of what is a value in the military comes from the quality of leaders that
4:20 get developed as someone's career progresses whether it's you know an enlisted career going up into the you know non-commissioned offense officer and Senior non-commissioned officer ranks or as a commissioned officer going from you know Junior to senior officer Etc almost so much of what makes the military work is leadership so I I'm going to kind of throw it open to you um to you know give me or give us kind of your thoughts on how you see
4:55 um you know bridging that leadership Gap going from military to civilian and let the conversation develop from there yeah well thanks again Kevin for inviting me John um you know I tell you what's what's really interesting since we've last spoke I've probably I do a lot of coaching now so I have the advantage of now listening and coaching individual leaders at all levels actually literally at all levels I do a lot of CEOs and I do a lot of uh folks who are brand new and everything in between um what's interesting is it's it's all the same the the principles are the same whether you're a brand new leader or
5:30 you're running a General Motors frankly um and what I've what I've come to find out is what the good news is the things that I it kind of totally understood as I came up to the ranks that Navy had went into the book it's it's bait in my opinion it's it's it's uh it's it's it's correct I mean what I'm seeing with all these folks the the leadership they're displaying and really in a nutshell Kevin it comes down to behaviors um that's it in a nutshell uh if you behave in certain ways you will create a culture of trust uh you'll know what's
6:05 going on uh because you'll be told what you need to hear now what you want to hear and uh and at the end of the day you'll more likely make the right decisions leaders are paid to make decisions that's in a nutshell and those who make the right decisions more or less their their companies grow those who don't make good decisions their companies don't grow and that is directly attributed to attributed to how people treat their people um you know it's just playing out as we speak with uh what happened in in Ukraine it's Ukraine and Moscow and Russia it's not a company but what I talk about in my in my uh seminars is is
6:42 a case study of a culture of fears playing out as we speak uh as we all know Russia goes into Ukraine and we all thought that Ukraine was going to fold uh it didn't we find out that the Russian army is not nearly as strong as it was Putin was probably told it was strong but people were probably told them lies frankly they didn't tell them the truth and here now he's got a major problem on his hands um and that's obviously a macro example of a Culture of Fear so the bottom line is what if if I were in business um I would not over complicate this thing uh the bottom line is is you it's
7:19 not about command and control it's about care and compassion and and usually when I get invited to a speaker Symposium or or whatnot people are thinking here's this guy from the Navy 30 years and I've got a flat top and you know I look pretty militaristic and and I come out and say hey man it's not about command and control it's about taking care of your people and that's it in a nutshell uh in in when I came into the this leadership at the high levels like you talked about this this uh um running my Hospital uh I you know I tell the story I don't think it was a panic attack but I I could sleep about
7:55 three nights before I was actually going to take over this hospital and and the reason I couldn't sleep is I realized I had I'll kick my coverage if you will I did not uh as I thought about I said I don't really know how to run a hospital and that was that was not an overly dramatic statement I'm a pharmacist by trade I ran a lot of pharmacies I did have a some some exposure to the c-suite but in my opinion not as much as I probably should have other people saw some some leadership in me and gave me this opportunity but when I had that night of panic I guess but again three nights
8:31 before this change of command up in Bremerton Washington I'll tell you where it where it was in the beautiful Pacific Northwest my wife looked at me she said you know what are you what do you why can't you sleep I said well I'm not I'm not sure I know how to run a hospital which she looked she looked at me with a look of he said you were you tell me we're three days away from this thing you don't know what you're doing okay that was again that wasn't an overly dramatic statement um I knew I was again I would kick my coverage other people knew it now my wife knew it but what she said to me Kevin she said Mark you've been studying leadership your whole life and I have been passionate about this subject as you have been I just find it fascinating
9:06 I'm still learning we just had a discussion before we went on air about leadership but she said just be the best leader you could be you know not going to learn how to run a hospital in three days and that's what I did Kevin I did I made a major effort to do one thing I wanted to convey to my people that I cared for their well-being I got to know them they saw me a lot I was respectful I course corrected them when they were doing things wrong I certainly gave them ample opportunities to uh tell them they were doing a good job and I was usually pretty upbeat uh you know I tell people you do those five five things you will
9:43 create a culture trust you'll be told what you need to hear not what you want to hear and you more or less your likelihood of success it will will increase significantly and this is backed up by many many studies that I found I'm still coming across these studies so what I try to tell leaders is don't don't over complicate this thing at the end of the day you want your people to conclude that that you care for their well-being and they will work hard for you so and and that certainly has been you know my experience both both in and out of the Navy
10:19 so you mentioned there's five things that you know a leader should focus on um would you take a minute and and tell us what those five things are because I think if I'm reading your message correctly these are the five things we want to have sort of plugged in back here right so that each day as we're we're going through our activities we can say okay I need to I need to be doing this or I need to be I need to be doing three or I need to be doing one or yeah yeah that's great thanks for the opportunity because this really is the essence of this is what I coach on and
10:54 this is what's in the book of course and again what's beautiful is it's it's what I'm going to talk about I feel more confident today than I did even yesterday because every time I have a call with one of these folks in these levels of leadership uh what we're going to talk about here in the next five minutes is is absolutely Amplified and proven frankly to be uh to be the the case so the first thing I like to talk about is getting to know your people you think of people that you trust well you trust these people because you know them you and I formed a very quick relationship and and I began trusting
11:30 you so when you have someone come on board after they go through the grueling process of getting hired and they finally show up at your doorstep and you have your first one-on-one with them they're going to expect you to go through the do's and don'ts and all this other stuff and I counsel don't do that when they get through that grueling process they welcome aboard you know you've been through this this process of taking a while really glad to have you on board we're not going to talk about work today I want to get to know you I want to tell you a little bit about my story and uh and that's what we're going to do and you basically have your five-minute elevator speech your story
12:05 because they do want to know about you you've obviously in a position of leadership and then turn it over to them saying tell me your story um ask them the Hobbies they have what do you love to do what do you expect me as a leader what are your expectations of me as a leader and all you have to do is listen I mean there's no big major skill set here uh listen and uh and be intrigued with what comes out of their mouth ask them if you could take notes take some notes uh that is a extremely powerful way to build a foundation of trust it doesn't um uh it doesn't seal the deal if you will but to build a foundation of trust
12:40 there's no better way and the skill set needed again takes time and it takes the ability to listen uh the second thing I'd love to talk about is being visible uh there's a people on the on the on the call here may know about this thing called high reliability organization it's a term used that the aviation Community has embraced uh with crew Resource Management the uh nuclear power industry has Embrace this for safety and Healthcare is trying to embrace this in specifically the VA and one of the foundational practices of a high reliability organization is the leader
13:16 is seen the leader is not behind closed doors reading you know sending emails out all day long they call it lead a rounding I call it being visible it's the same thing and again when you lead arounding what you're doing is you're listening uh you you you ask people you know what's what can I do to help you uh and you follow up it's very important to follow up there's studies that show following up is the key and one of the stories I love to tell real quick is uh this happened at a major Hospital during covet a CEO went to the award I think it was an ICU award to Intensive Care Unit and asked the nurses in the middle of Covenant again maybe these nurses work so hard uh they said you know what do
13:52 you need they said we can't even get hot food our our microwave busted so the CEO went to Walmart bought a 50 or 100 or whatever uh microwave brought it back to the nurses and you think that built some trust and some some love from the nurses so it's a little things like that that make a huge difference if you don't get out of your office you don't know what they need the third thing I'd love to talk about is show people respect and listening is really the ultimate form of respect uh when you listen you don't have to agree with people you just gotta acknowledge their point uh that is
14:27 incredibly important to show respect and respect is easy when things are going well it's harder when things aren't going well and that's your Crucible moment as a leader what do you do when you get bad news if you go in high to the right and get angry that creates a culture of fear and cultures of fear breed really bad decisions again going back to the story of old Putin he made a bad decision going into Ukraine in retrospect but that was created from a Culture of Fear I mean I don't know what happened with this immersible that you know off the coast of Cape Cod uh I'm
15:03 gonna guess again I don't want to trample anyone's Soul or do we have five dead folks but somewhere in that debacle I'm going to guess there was some level of Culture of Fear people are maybe afraid to tell the truth that this is maybe not as safe as it turned out to be we'll probably never know that so uh the three that we've talked about so far is knowing your staff be visible and be respectful this fourth one is probably the most important it wasn't the first in the book first first one I brought about in the book just because I didn't have the wisdom I know now
15:39 and the fourth one is this one you can do all those three things think about it we probably work for people who are out there they're very charismatic they go out and they get to know you you see them the the uh they're respectful they listen very well but if you don't do this one you're going to come off as being a nice leader but ineffective and this one is course correcting people what I like to say is don't ignore good or poor performance uh you set expectations you want people make those expectations you tell them good job um and I I just had I just was at a seminar at a pretty big hospital I just
16:14 shared this with you because you can't make this stuff up um in this seminar I did the same thing I'm going through a little bit faster with you guys obviously but with this I had 90 minutes and one of the things I said is is you know we we write people up for awards any any institution any organization we write people up for days off we we give people promotions and and all that I said that's all good don't don't take that away but don't underestimate the the the power of just saying good job you did a wonderful job so after I gave this talk the CEO of the organization got up there and he was
16:50 telling a story about how he was off site the past weekend in someone one of his uh people came up to him it said boss I just want to tell you thank you for being here it really means a lot to us thank you and as he's telling this story Kevin he starts breaking down crying it meant so much to him literally he got emotional and and I basically said you know he it was it was not even it was uncomfortable in the fact that this guy you know he broke down in front of 50 people and I'll just share with you this guy's a prior military this person is not a snowflake he's a tough guy but the point is that thank you
17:25 meant so much to him uh it belies the the fact that I'm saying that you know don't be afraid to tell people a good job and the last thing I talk about is optimism uh people like working for people who can see the glass half full as opposed to seeing the glass half empty and that's a two-edged sword because you can't come off as being naive and and not talk about the elephant in the room uh but those are the five things I love to talk about again uh be visible know your staff be respectful don't ignore go to poor performance or be and be pretty don't be walking around all day with your ringing
18:01 your hands and I'll just say the last one I just talked about very quickly is this is these are skills that everyone every leader needs to understand and embrace and the last thing I talk about is you need to continuously relearn uh these these these these leadership uh tenants um study leadership to be a better leader so one of the things that struck me is and and of course I've read your book and and I'm familiar with with these these five principles is um at least some of them we can practice just in our day-to-day lives so so for
18:39 example getting to know people we don't have to do that only as a leader on the job um I I one of the things I try to do um with respect to my my daughter who's she'll be 16 soon and I'm you know I'm helping her sort of figure out how do you successfully navigate the world is is show her how to create relationships with other people and and and so we'll we'll meet someone who's a stranger and interact with them and and from the get-go I work to you know learn something about that
19:15 person um and and and show her how much that enhances the whole situation just by in essence treating people like people um whether I'm one of one of my pet peeves is is people tend to treat uh um folks working in you know retail stores is I don't know machines and and they don't treat them very well and I've had so many conversations over the last several months um where I'll I'll meet someone and just be so how do you like it here you know
19:51 that kind of thing so we can practice these principles that you've mentioned um outside of the leadership Arena I'll share one other quick story so I'm friends with a woman who manages the my favorite restaurant and over the last few weeks I've really seen it growing as she's done some you know marketing things and and when we when my daughter and I were there on Thursday I walked up to her just before I left I said you know really you you need to be congratulated it's it's so vibrant in here it's so busy that's really terrific and kind of like you said I I thought
20:26 for a moment she was gonna cry just just to be told hey you know good job and I'm not her I'm not she's not responsible to me or anything right I just did that because we're friends and I thought she you know should be recognized as as you know succeeding so I I we can we can practice these I think no matter what the arena is yeah I'll tell you Kevin it's so funny so that that I was at the this event in uh not in California it was in Arizona and the morning I went to McDonald's to get a cup of coffee and my old I love sausage McMuffin
21:02 um in the morning when I'm on the road so uh it's like seven o'clock in the morning this was the most the cleanest McDonald's I've ever seen the people were super friendly seven o'clock in the morning I mean people would have to sleep here but I'm sitting with my buddy and I said we're talking about the McDonald's and I said this is a nice instrument I travel a lot and I do go to McDonald's for my meals if I'm on the road and uh I went to the I said who's the manager before we left and again we're going to the event to talk about this leadership stuff and well he's not here but the supervisors here say bring them out here so the guy comes out and I said I got to tell you I travel a lot and this is the nicest for most
21:37 friendliest McDonald's I've been in the last five years and again I'm not saying the guy almost teared up but I could tell in the the whole team kind of came out and this is all that took place in about 10 seconds when I didn't have a long speech for these people but I just told them truth and it meant so much to them and is my buddy and I were walking around he goes you know they're probably going to be talking about that all day long again I did it on me from a hole in the wall just some some stranger but it's a powerful powerful way to connect with people in expressing a leadership position oh my goodness when you tell a young person who's just came aboard you did a really good job on that project
22:12 last week week holy smokes man that makes their day and it gives them confidence to you know to maybe push themselves a little bit so it's and it's an easy thing to do you don't have to write anything up you don't have to ask the boss for extra money it's a low-hanging fruit it's a softball yeah so so here's here's a question this may be a little bit out of left field so I I I've shared this before on on other shows and I'm but I'm not sure if I've told you this I'm actually an introvert people think because I do these shows or whatever oh you must be an extrovert um and and I there's a little bit of
22:47 confusion I think over introvert versus extrovert but for me as an introvert to to do many of the leadership um aspects that you've described it takes a lot of energy interacting with people being visible being out there what what advice do you have for introverts who are in leadership positions to to sustain the the energy level and the focus necessary to be a good leader without sort of you know
23:22 exhausting themselves yeah that's a great question well you know it's funny I gave a talk with a buddy of mine who's actually a retired General uh we had to give a talk on uh pros and cons of introverted and extroverted uh uh leaders and what we concluded was introverted leaders are actually more effective uh again that's that's a broad statement we didn't have any data but the point is introverted leaders are as effective as extroverted leaders and what's beautiful about and I'm basically I think I'm an extrovert I haven't taken a test or anything I haven't done this thing in a while but but the point is what's beautiful about introverts is
23:58 they lit I think they're better listeners and listening if all if all the gifts that leaders have in Colon policy when I could come to think of immediately he was just a tremendous listener um listening is a gift and I think in introverts are better listeners and one of the things I say in the book is no one's going to tell the boss to stop talking so bosses just go on and on and and they're the first to speak in a meeting you should be the last to speak in a meeting and I think introverts have that instinct that they they would listen but listen better I just you know that's just anecdote I don't have any any evidence to prove that but the other
24:34 side is introverts it's going to take a little bit more energy like you said or maybe more a push to get them out the door to walk around but again if you and it's easy to do once you start doing a matter of fact I'm coaching a guy who was not on board with this leader rounding business getting out and walking around and he's an introvert he absolutely told me he's an introvert so once he started doing it he saw the power in it when people come up to him this this thank you thing happened during one of the leader roundings the same same person I'm talking about and he understands now the power of walking around and he loves it he absolutely loves it because he sees that there's
25:09 there's a payback here so I think for for introverts it's it's uh I I loved I've worked for many introverts they were tremendous listeners it's again anecdotal stuff here but don't be don't shy away from being a leader if you're if you think you're an introvert you make great leaders but just like anyone else I would I wasn't good at is a leader is I don't like reading data I don't like reading spreadsheets but sometimes you have to do that sometimes you have to do things you're just not inclined to do and those that push themselves that do it can go very far so don't be it's a great question Kevin
25:44 it's a question I get often uh and I love answering it because uh some of the greatest leaders in the world have been literally introverts uh they're fantastic listeners that's their gift so um one of the things you said in answering that question um was uh you know no one's gonna tell the boss to shut up it reminded me and and please correct me if my if I'm misremembering but there's a theory of leadership and I I think um it comes out of um the Japanese corporate world where when there's an
26:21 issue that needs to be discussed the most Junior person at the table will be asked to give his opinion first and then it kind of works its way up the the seniority ladder and otherwise there they would be fearful that whatever the top guy said everybody else is just going to mimic um you know rather than giving their candid thoughts I'm I'm wondering what you may know about that and what you think about that is that well it's a best practice Kevin I mean it's a and again I haven't heard it that disciplined as the most Junior but I'll tell you what's interesting is I was I'm
26:57 coaching a gentleman who's in the Green Berets I do this through this honor Foundation uh I've been you know pro bono work and help these folks who get out of the military go into civilian world so I do a lot of coaching but I get to talk with these incredibly High performing individuals and one of the things this person said just like you you annotated they go through make sure everyone in the room has a chance to talk about a mission before they go on this Mission and that is a high reliability organization uh leadership best practice um I didn't I've never heard it that you find the most Junior first but that is brilliant frankly you you find the most
27:32 brilliant first if the next book I write I'm going to take I'm going to steal that from you but the more importantly the the leader must be the last person to speak because if you say I think the paints you know the wall should be purple they're all going to say yeah I think that's a great idea boss purple's a great color uh and that takes some discipline not to to be the last to speak but I don't know where you read that but it's that's uh that's a brilliant uh the best practice I'll I'll just see if I can dig it up for you and if I can I will pass it along so what what advice do you have for junior
28:07 people who maybe they're working for a leader who is not a great leader you know who who you know he's the kind of leader who he's always going to speak first or he's not accessible how do you how does you know maybe someone who's you know recently out of college or something like that what what advice do you have for them to deal with with this this kind of leader Kevin I got to tell you man that is you know when I used to go overseas a lot before covet I'll get back on the road again just uh but all cultures
28:43 all organizations all levels of leadership that's the most popular question I get and it's kind of sad when you think of it okay I understand what you're saying Mark about leadership but I'm working for someone who doesn't does the opposite so I've done a lot of thinking on this I don't I don't have the perfect answer but the first thing I tell people is give that person Grace you don't know what you don't you don't walk in their shoes you don't know what's going on behind the scenes so try to give them some Grace um at the end of the day though you have a choice you can either say you want to if you think you can change their behavior if you think you can Enlighten
29:18 them then I tell I say talk to someone you trust a spouse is probably a good start don't maybe someone not in the company because the company the people who started spreading rumors but find out do you think you can have a conversation with your boss to help him or her become a better leader I'm going to say 90 of the time that's not going to happen you're not going to be effective so be very careful before you get on that road because you don't want to cause more harm than good so if you conclude that I can't change this person you have a choice and the choice is again give them Grace that may buy some time but at the
29:54 end of the day if this is causing such a discernment with you or not discernment uh discontent with you and maybe in fact in your health and I talked to you know not not a fair amount of people who are in this boat Kevin and uh and I tell them you need to move on I think this is impacting your health and I think you need to move on and they've called me up a month or two later and say just quit I got a new job I'm making less money but I'm happier than heck uh so uh at the end of the day the good news is we all have choices uh and if you've got that if you're in a position where you're working for someone who's uh just very
30:30 very difficult you you'd have a choice to move on here's the good news though but I'll end with this here real quick we're at the end here but you're learning a lot about leadership you're probably getting it I tell people you're getting NBA in leadership when you work for someone who is not respectful because you will not do those things tendency wise because you see how harmful they are so while it's painful to go through those you can learn a lot from a leader who's not Stellar frankly um but again it's painful process at the end of the day you got to take care of yourself so we are about at our time do you have a few more minutes absolutely absolutely Kevin thank you so I want to ask you a
31:06 follow-up question sure um and and this was something that that I faced um in my Navy career very early on my first Duty station I um I one of my um key people that I worked with I had I had what I thought for him was a fantastic opportunity to um to go to the Marine Corps um one of their NCO Leadership Academy and he was a Navy petty officer second class he would have been one of the first Navy guys to go to a Marine Corps leadership program which was a really big deal and
31:42 and I was of course I had been able to get him this opportunity I was so filled with what I did right yeah yeah yeah and this this sailor at first thought it was great and then talking to his wife and thinking about it he he became very um concern that he just wasn't up to the physical standards and such of the Marines and and other things and um to his credit um he came to me and said sir I really don't want to do this and
32:18 and I I could not hear it I I could I'm like no no you know I I get it you're just nervous you're gonna be great you know blah blah and and this went on for about two weeks leading up to the program and I guess I think he must have gone and talked to somebody else because that person came to me and and essentially said to me you know chaplain bummel who are you doing this for him or you right and and I so I I called my the the senior chaplain that I worked for and I said you know sir here's what's going on
32:53 what do you recommend I do and he said I recommend you have a call a talk with your conscience and and and make the the best decision for you know for your sailor and so I I ended up going to him and saying you know what I'm I'm very very sorry I didn't I just couldn't hear you for some reason but but if if you really don't want to go then you know um all make this go away basically yeah so so my question for you is as that Junior sailor how do you should
33:29 you know should you challenge the decision of your leader and if so how do you do it in a way that will be effective and not necessarily um damage the relationship yeah that's a great question it's a change management and talking to your boss well first of all uh just happened to me I just this happened about a month ago I I had to have my boss support me doing something and uh this was on a Wednesday and my my buddy said well just just call him up today I
34:05 said no I'm gonna wait till Friday so it sounds so simple but people are in better moods on Friday so wait till Friday if you have an issue with your boss and then if you're you go in again I'm assuming this is not urgent if there's you know the the Taliban coming over the berm obviously it's urgent but most things let's be honest aren't urgent it's something you want done uh and so with my boss it's funny as you mentioned I haven't thought of this story is uh my boss would have he was an idea guy and I'll just tell you it's Adam Fason he's a great guy a great guy
34:40 my Best Buy's ever worked for and I'd go in there with a piece of paper and he would come up with ideas and I'd write down all these ideas and they were all good ideas but there's no way we can Implement all these things so I would find the time to you know when you know she's always in a good mood but sometimes better moves than not and I said sir hey all those ideas you had did we went down to like two or three and yeah no they're all we got a sense of Sir let's just kind of work on two or three and I always deliver on those two or three so I guess have that emotional intelligence at the peak level uh wait for your boss to be
35:15 in a better mood than not um and just you know you just gotta sell it um to try to uh explain the reasons why you can't do this or can't do that uh if they're given too much to you which is one of the things I do a lot of coaching with professors at major universities and these folks are hungry they can't say no and next thing you know they're paralyzed with too much to do so I tell them you got to learn to say no and and when you go to your boss say I can do this but what can you what can I take off my plate um so you know managing your boss is a art in itself but uh simple things I say
35:51 is find them in a really good mood relative uh usually Friday and and just uh try to again this is now we're getting in a lot here but uh try to manipulate it so it's their idea um and I can't think of an example that I used recently with one of my old bosses but um uh at the end of the day at the end of the day uh you're gonna have to deliver what you promise and I think what I did with Admiral Faison under two or three things that he that I said I
36:26 delivered on we delivered on so when you build credibility with your boss uh you can you have more leverage to say I we won't be able to do this uh so I guess it goes back to the old Dodge that you you you you you you deliver on that which you promise uh and be very scrupulous of what you promise uh and you'll have a better chance of manipulating you know manipulation managing your boss makes sense makes sense well well you know gosh I I think we actually should have planned for two hours and the time went by so quickly
37:03 um but you know hopefully you'll you'll come on again and we'll we'll you know dive more deeply into this thing we were talking before the show about the book that you're writing on Nimitz and um you know looking forward to uh you know to talking with that even though I guess some of the some of the writings being delayed and such but uh could I just add one last thing this this has come the last 60 days and it's not in the book this the current book that I you know the finished a couple years ago but I'll tell you this has been so powerful I want to share it with the audience is whether you have a a person who's uh not performing well and you're
37:40 gonna have to have a difficult conversation with him or her or someone just a one-on-one they're they are performing well but going to the first one if you have someone who's not performing well um a beautiful way to start the conversation is you're doing a great job doing this um this is an area where we need some improvement what can I do to help support you better and then just stop uh so when I've been coaching people to do that and they're very hesitant to do it because it takes a lot of courage to say what can I do basically look in the mirror if you read
38:15 the Jocko willing's book extreme ownership this is exactly what he talks about you own it so one of the things I've been coaching on a lot is it when you're having a difficult conversation with someone who's not performing well you've got to start the conversation what can I do to help support you better in this project it just changed the Dynamics Kevin it's so powerful and frankly I wish I did it when I was in my 30 years in the Navy I did not do that but it's got it's gotten tremendous results with people who have done it uh in the last literally last uh last couple of weeks I just had to share that well thanks and you know it is interesting because
38:51 um I I've been working with a a very close friend of mine who's one of the most successful real estate agents here in Los Angeles and and I've I've been able to sit in on some of his coaching sessions and that's how he always starts out his coaching sessions he'll say he says okay we'll chat we'll have our coffee you know whatever to sort of you know warm things up and then I'll say Okay so let's start out what problems are you having and what can I do to help you solve those problems because that's the only reason for me to to be here is
39:28 to help you solve the problems that you have and and it is it's it's enormously powerful um and I I candidly am not a big fan of the term servant leader I I it just it just sounds wrong to me but having said that I think a lot of what a leader does is offer to support you know his or her people so that they feel like there's someone who cares about their progress yeah when you have Kevin it's so it's so
40:03 amazing these organizations I've been in and helped out what I've come to conclude is this you got to have some level of Competency in in the job you have but I'm convinced I'm telling you Kevin I'm convinced that you could put someone who doesn't know how to boil water put them in charge of a restaurant and treat their people well and obviously have someone who knows a little bit about running out of a restaurant but if you don't have to know how to run a damn restaurant you need to help know how to treat your people well and when you do that they will rise the occasion and that's what happened at
40:39 Bremerton even though I was clearly not the most proficient person in hospital operations after that three years we won more Wars than any other house from the region uh and it was you know big regions the whole Pacific Rim and I would say that to Bragg I say that because again I am not an expert on Hospital operations to this day I'm not but I understood through all the study and whatnot about leadership so uh it's basically how you treat your people that in a nutshell absolutely yeah well Mark thanks thanks so much thanks especially for spending extra time here um these you know these last few minutes
41:15 with with those with those extra ideas I appreciate it very much and and um like I said um hopefully we'll we'll have you back soon well thank you much thanks so much Kevin and continue success to you my friend okay okay I'm gonna have you hang tight just for a minute while I I wrap things up here so um that that's it for today we'll be back uh we're here again tomorrow as I mentioned with my guest Lori Israel talking about marriage and money on my show people making money that's 12 30 p.m Pacific time and if you if you want to join us live just go to our Eventbrite page and get a free
41:50 ticket otherwise you can watch us on all the streaming that you're uh watching us on now and then we're gonna do it all again next week well next week is is Fourth of July week so we have some kind of special shows lined up um because of Fourth of July and so so please uh you know give us a give us a view next week and last thing I want to ask you is um if if you like the show do consider going to our YouTube page and subscribing and letting other people know about it uh we're we're here to help this is this is sort of an exercise in leadership if you will so if there's
42:26 is a topic that that you you know that you were curious about or need information about do drop us a comment into any of our social media send me an email and I'm happy to develop a show on that topic and if it's if it's on leadership I'll I'll bring mark back and we'll we'll fire those questions at him so thank you all very much for watching I appreciate it very much look forward to seeing you again soon and just signing off as I always do about my great great friend Marie darling you are and ever will be my belt thanks so much