0:00 Kevin bemel and we're here every Tuesday morning at 10: a.m. Pacific Time 1 pm eastern time to talk about uh military Doctrine military history the leadership of great military figures and apply them to our business and professional lives so today I'm going to talk about a a I guess there's kind of a pun here a sensitive topic so um over the last I think what couple of years there's been a lot of talk about classified information and classified information
0:36 stored improperly and all these kind of things my my purpose here is is not to be political it's to um understand how classified information Works within the military so that we could so that we can set up similar protocols in our businesses um but also just for our own knowledge so we can better understand um events that are happening in our country just under understand what you know some of the rules of the game are how this kind of thing works so I know this is a
1:11 little bit of a departure from um what I normally talk about but I I I think that it's it's it's worth taking this uh little bit of a side road here um you know given the the the kind of things that are going on and what's at stake so I do have my handy dandy um PowerPoint um and and I I call this protect your business's Secrets right because in you know first first of all not all businesses have you know top secret type information or um trying to
1:48 remember the the phrase that's used in Animal House by by Dean wormer um D oh double secret probation sorry that has not I was thinking that had it was double secret double top secret but anyway slight digression um but in but in any event um we do have um typically in our businesses uh information that um should not be disclosed if it's a health care business we have to comply with HIPPA um minimally and there may be you know we may actually um have a a higher level of of
2:24 confidentiality um you know in a in a healthc care business than Hippa even requires if you're a in in any kind of service business whether you're a lawyer an accountant a real estate broker um an appraiser all of those carry uh duties of confidentiality Andor privileged communication with your clients not to mention clergy um who have the highest level of of um privilege communication with with what's called uh clergy penitent privilege um- which is
3:02 virtually absolute um and so if we're going to store information anywhere but in our heads um these days with um cloud storage with computer network computers etc we do have to be careful about how we handle those things and so um I I think you will find this information instructive so um as is always the case on the way to wow shows everything revolves around the three pillars of attainment typically we're dealing in
3:37 the finances Realm of the Pursuits pillar um but um you know whenever we're dealing with confidentiality um there's probably other people involved whether it's the other people whose privacy is being protected or the the other people who are trying to get access to to the private information so you know that that plays into it as well all right so um when we talk about classified data classified information there's really
4:12 four issues we need to examine one is the classification system itself okay what what what is what are the classifications what what do they mean Etc next is Access Control who gets to see the classified data next are what are the security measures that are taken in order to protect the classified data and then finally um what are the results what is the discipline me it out for someone who violates um the classified
4:52 nature of the data violates the secrets of our businesses right and and so I think you'll see very much a one toone correlation as we go through this okay so there are basically um three levels of of classified data I added a fourth one because in the military you do um you do see this um uh so the highest level of classification is top secret the next is secret the next is
5:28 confidential um and the last one is um uh oh gosh it's it's fuou which which and I'm I'm going up on the acronym all of a sudden wow that's uh for official use only okay for official use only um and um all of these um they describe information that should not be accessible by everyone okay even for
6:05 official use only for official use oh I I did it backwards it's actually fuo sorry I just realized that that's why I'm I'm going up on this even for official use only this is not information that someone should be you know talking about at a party um it's not classified in in the sense of the higher level um but it's just not for everyday uh discussion okay and um so you know the the the higher the level of
6:41 classification the more potential damage there would would result from the disclosure of that data okay so um you know in a business um there is there there's probably a lot of for official use only dat um which may not you know actually damage the building or cause a legal liability for the company if it were released um but nonetheless um it it doesn't need to be sort of spread out all over the place
7:16 confidential data on the other hand this may be something that falls under Hippa it may follow it may fall under a professional obligation we have as I mentioned before for lawyers accountants Etc um and and so there are potential penalties um in civilian in the civilian world for its um dispersal um or its un un um its improper uh disclosure so you know does your business have you know secret type or top secret type um uh data well um as
7:53 I understand it cocacola does not disclose um the the formula for cocacola that's that's a uh tightly kept Business secret okay so um in that case um I would say you know you have that kind of level and if you have some sort of proprietary um formula for anything whether it be food some sort of proprietary chemical formula um the disclosure of that can have a materially bad effect on your business right now we
8:28 all know that um industrial Espionage goes on um there's lots of talk about how China looks to get a hold of formularies for example for um prescription drugs and then they manufacture those drugs in violation of patent protection Etc right so um the question would be you know how do they get access to that information and it it must be that either their Data Systems are getting hacked or there are people within the companies who have access to that information who
9:04 should not right just the same as we see in the military right so all these things um need to be uh looked into um for for your businesses okay now when there when classified information exists and especially if it's on hard copy there are going to be markings on it you've probably all seen in TV or movies like they'll be you know stamped top secret um doesn't really look so much like that anymore there are cover sheets on the data um that that explain the the level of classification attached to it
9:40 um there are special folders um with with markings on them um there will typically be um a log on them that um if someone has possession of that that information they need to fill out the log so that it's it's it's known you know who has seen this information obviously if someone gets a hold of it who's not supposed to they're not going to fill out the log um but um um you know people who do they're going to have no problem
10:15 um uh you know filling out or or you know keeping that log um current so um so you know in in the same way um if if there is um uh you know if there are files for example that are that are confidential so then um you know they they should be um you know so labeled if there's you know files that fall under Hippa they should be you know so labeled e even on U I would argue even on a um um you know
10:50 a computer uh based storage system right so um or you could even you know you could Mark you could color Mark such files so maybe they're those files are marked in red and that means you know kind of Beware about disclosing that and that's that's understood to be um you know how they're how they're identified okay next declassification so in theory classified data is is periodically reviewed for declassification in other words um being
11:25 made public in practice uh I don't ever recall a situation where um in my military career where where that happened um and and by the way this is one of I think the problems with um how the military and the larger government um handles uh classified information is there's a tremendous amount of information that's classified um that probably doesn't need to be um and then it's kept classified even even though it could be
12:01 Declassified um and it it you know there's there's so much of it that it becomes difficult to keep track of it all um and so I think um you know we need to um be aware of the same lesson if you will in our businesses what really needs to be kept a secret in our businesses right the less that we need to keep secret the more effective we can be in keeping that secret right so um I I I I think that um the the tendency in the
12:36 government over the last several decades is to keep more and more and more and more data classified um and and and it just makes it unwieldy so you know again um I I I I I think we we don't want to repeat that mistake in our businesses and then kind of along the same lines as declassification there's the Freedom of Information Act sometimes just called Foya based on its acronym so um the Freedom of Information Act grants um any person including non-citizens and
13:11 businesses the right to access um records held by the federal government so this is an outgrowth of things that happened in in the 60s and uh in the 1960s and 1970s um excuse me um because um files were being kept about people um that shouldn't have been kept um Jay Edgar Hoover the director of the FBI was was famous for doing that um and
13:49 so a law was created whereby people could request access to Government Federal Government held data so Foya presumes that when someone requests the information the information will be released to to that person um and in this sense I use person broadly to also mean businesses Etc okay and the way it works is the person submits a foyo request you um some agencies have an online um portal for doing so others you
14:27 have to send a request by mail and then there's a time within which the agency has to respond to the foyer request typically it's around 20 business days okay and the answer should be you know here's the data unless it falls under certain specific exe exemptions and those exemptions are National Security and and if it truly is a matter of national security so then the data should should not be um should
15:02 not be released under a foyer request now you can say well wait a minute who decides whether it's a matter of National Security and it's probably going to be agency staff um who are going to do so um you know and and there's a presumption that they're doing so in good faith but of course we've seen that's not always the case Okay law enforcement is another reason is another um exemption from um the the requirement to disclose data under Foya typically an ongoing um investigation or or data that
15:38 might um damage the ability to enforce the law on on an on you know on on some future um situation um even though there may not be something right at this moment um that's going on with respect to that data and same thing you know it it's it's incumbent upon the agency staff generally speaking um to uh make these decisions okay and then the last one is um personal privacy so um we've seen where IRS data was um improperly um disclosed so IRS data is
16:16 not is not actually classified data per se um however um our our tax returns are supposed to be kept um private um but um and and by the way a foyer request doesn't necessarily um apply to uh classified data applies to any data that that the federal government um has although it could be um you could one could make a foyer request for data that has a a classification um recognize that it's probably less likely that the foyer
16:52 request will be um honored if data is is classified um so in the case of personal property again the foyer request would be turned down so if you made a foyer request for you know my tax returns presumably the IRS is going to say no those are private and you can't have that under a foyer request now you might be able to subpoena my tax returns if if you you know um had a reason to do so and the court would oversee you know that the the issuance of that subpoena and so then um the IRS presumably would
17:28 would comply um but with a foyer request probably not okay so so that's that's another way in which in in theory at least um uh classified data could be disclosed now let's say you submit a foyer request excuse me and the agency uh declines the foyer requests they they claim you know National Security whatever that's not the end of the matter you do have the ability to appeal um that decision on the part of the
18:03 agency um you can go to court and for you know to enforce um compliance with your foyer request and and and so the the you know judicial system is available um to do so um and and depending on what the issue is that that may be the case now how would that apply in the civilian business World well let's say you know you have um conf let's say you have data protected by Hippa okay um you know if you request that you make a request for
18:38 that data which you certainly can do okay most likely the healthc care provider is going to turn down that request unless maybe it's you know data about yourself but if it's data about someone else um they're almost for sure going to turn down that data so is that the end of it no not necessarily right um you if you have a compelling reason for getting that data so you could go to court and and and you know try to get the court to issue a subpoena okay and um and and if the court felt you had
19:13 a compelling reason then they might issue a subpoena and then you know the the um healthc care uh company Under The subpoena would be obligated most likely to um to honor The subpoena now if you have business Secrets okay then presumably if someone were to make a you know a request to see them the answer is going to be no right that's a secret however let's say you were in some kind of patent fight where someone is suing you because they believe that you have stolen their intellectual property right so in that
19:51 case again they may apply to a court uh to get a subpoena to get access to that secret information or that proprietary information however you might describe it and if the court believes there's a compelling reason um for that individual or that other company to have access to that information um the court May Grant it they may put certain restrictions on on the access to it given that it is secret to your business um but there's you know the fact that it's secret and you declare it so um you
20:28 won't have the same um you won't have any greater protection than than the government does okay so um that that that's how all of this can work um you know in a uh um in in in a civilian World situation okay access control so um people in the military depending on who they are may have a security clearance okay so for example um all the years that I was in the Navy um I had a secret clearance which in in
21:05 theory allowed me access to data classified at the secret level and Below okay uh the confidential and the for official use only level as well I did not have access to top secret data now when I was chaplain for a Seal Team um the being because I was with a Seal Team so um pretty much everybody at a Seal Team um um you know gets access to Top Secret uh gets a top secret clearance I
21:40 should say doesn't get access necessarily but gets a top secret clearance and indeed um my my unit had uh you know applied for me to get a top secret clearance at the time it was taking several years in order for a top secret clearance to be granted and the fact of the matter was um I left the Navy before my uh top secret clearance could be granted so whether it would have been or not I don't know um I I know I had to fill out you know all kinds of paperwork I had to go in for a meeting with um um a woman who um you
22:18 know asked a whole lot of questions etc etc so um it it's it's a very serious process okay now had I been had I been granted a a to secret clearance that wouldn't have that would not have meant that I could then go and just start looking at top secret information because having the clearance alone does not justify seeing information there also has to be a need to know meaning as part of my uh as part of fulfilling my duties I need to know this information
22:54 so for example let's say some of the members some of the operators in my Seal Team had a particular mission in a particular part of the world and that that information was top secret it's extremely unlikely that even if I had a top secret clearance I would I would have NE been given access to that data because why do I need to know that as a Chaplain I would not be going on the mission right no way okay and there's there's no reason for me to have that
23:30 information so even if so you know let let's say when the operators got back one of them was was was struggling and and they you know they came to me for counseling so um if the operator felt it was relevant for me to know where he was because that was part of what was causing him the uh emotional difficulty ulty um and and and so he he needed for me to be able to talk about him with that then maybe in that case he could
24:07 disclose the top secret information to me but my my experience was um The Operators I I spoke with they would just say you know I was in a bad place or something like that they would use a euphemism because they recognized there was no real need for me to know the specifics of where they were if if they told me it was a bad place and and they you know and why it was a bad place um the danger or whatever that was really what I needed to know to help them um with you know what what what had happened um to them and
24:44 so this idea of the of a need to know is crucial and I think that this is something we absolutely need to apply in our businesses so um when we have confidential or even secret information in our businesses who who gets access to any kind of information like that that would be what what we might call a security clearance but just because um they have their their sort of you know security clearance in your business do they really need to know this information and if not why would they you know why
25:20 should they have access to it without some kind of control on them okay so we we should probably have systems in place so that um um confidential information and secret information um is potentially available to certain employees or certain categories of employees but not actually available to them unless there's a demonstrated need to know and then depending on how sensitive the information is that might determine who
25:56 who in your organization will determine whether a particular individual has a need to know so in that way we can be um you know do our best to make sure that that um we're keeping control of access okay next so security measures um uh so there there basically they fall into three categories one is secure facilities um I um where people work um with uh
26:31 classified information um secure communication how the the the information can go from sort of you know one person to another and then data security itself so um secure facilities so I think a a good example of that is on our on a ship when I was deployed on the USS Ronald Reagan so there was a room on the ship um in the spaces occupied by the intelligence um officers and enlisted people where um if if there
27:07 was um top secret information to be conveyed from from maybe an intelligence briefer to let's say a pilot okay they would go in that room the door would be closed and the and the you know there was like a lock on it almost like a bank vault um and that and only those two people or if there maybe there would be three people whatever it was um could could be in that room when that when that information was being um disclosed so it was an absolutely secure uh facility um
27:44 that's how seriously um the Navy takes for example um information on you know where a particular um uh Squadron for example is is going to conduct a mission right it could potentially be disastrous for the enemy to know that that um you know a group of of um fighter attack Jets is launching from our carrier to go provide say close close air support on a military operation or or a bombing Mission or something because then they
28:19 could intercept them and and you know potentially shoot them down right so that kind of information has to be kept very very secret and so the places where that information is dealt with um are secure facilities okay and even just to get into the intelligence spaces like I I never went into the intelligence spaces that I recall because there was just no reason for me to be in there if if if intelligence Personnel wanted to see me so they could come to my office and we could talk there but there was no reason for me to be in their spaces I didn't have a need to know any of that
28:55 information um at least I you know maybe there are some chaplain that did but but I certainly did not and so you know there was I would not I was not led into those facilities okay so secure communication while sometimes as I described on the ship communication was personto person um that's not you know data cannot always be um you know transferred person to person so um sometimes you know for example data is transferred by email so the military has two email sipper uh two email systems
29:32 one is called nippet and the other is called sipper net and I'm going to give you the names of them they're you know we never called them uh we just called them Nipper and sipper we never um even use the net and and we certainly didn't use any so nippet stands for non-secure Internet Protocol router Network right only the government could come up with this and as you might imagine sipper is Secret Internet Protocol router Network so um most of us on a routine basis communicated on Nipper okay um if we
30:10 were dealing with classified information then we would have a sipper account what was known as the high side and oftentimes what you would do is um if you were communicating with someone and then you had to communicate with them on um you know you had to communicate classified information to them so you would just you would send them a a Nipper net email or a Nipper email saying hey check the high side and then they knew to go check their sipper account which had a much more uh thorough protocol for logging into to
30:46 get that that that communication of of classified information so um when I was with the Seal team I did in fact have a sipper account I don't ever recall using it um candidly but again it was it was just um it was standard protocol because I did have a secret um uh security clearance so if there had been a need for me to know about certain secret classified information um I had to have a way of of of receiving that information and or sending it okay um
31:21 but um like I said I I don't ever recall actually uh getting a sipper um email um and and you know likewise in your businesses so um it it probably doesn't make sense to have a sipper type level of security in your day-to-day email Communications because most of that stuff is is you know not particularly um it's not really confidential or and and not secret so to have you know your regular email system would be you know pretty much like a Nipper uh email
31:56 system but when it comes to these you know business Secrets Andor um confidential information it may you know make sense for you to have the the equivalent of a sipper type Network that only certain people have access to and those people are routinely um audited etc etc etc okay and then finally data security so um classified data is STO um is stored um using media that has um controlled access um often times it's
32:32 encrypted excuse me that sort of um I'm sorry not encrypted it's um um encoded um to to make it um uh difficult to um get it off um the the um the um data storage um that data storage may not be networked um in in the way regular data storage may be and again we can replicate all of these um in our businesses in order to keep secret data in our businesses um uh from being from being uh wrongly disclosed okay and finally the last
33:08 thing discipline so um during um my time in the Navy um as a Chaplain um there were uh a few times when um um uh Sailors I I don't recall um Marines um ever having done this but a few times when sailors um were caught disclosing uh classified data um and depending on how egregious it was um they would be subject to disciplinary measures and and
33:45 oftentimes I would be called in um to help make a determination um as to um what should happen to this sailor especially if there were some kind of potentially um mitigating circumstances so um in my experience and this this happened primarily when I was with um Aviation and submarines so the commanding officers didn't want to be unjust um on the other hand they you know needed to make sure that um information was was kept uh you know
34:21 classified data was kept appropriately classified so um you know often time I mean I don't recall ever where I knew what the data breach had been I just knew that one had taken place and I was given a sense of um what the potential consequences were um for for that data breach now what I will tell you is I never had a situation where a sailor was not disciplined for a data breach okay
34:57 okay and um maybe at some of the very very high levels um there was you know discipline was Overlook but honestly with with especially Junior enlisted people kind of you know e1s through kind of e3 e4s e5s even e6s never never saw it they were always disciplined okay minimally they would they would suffer a loss of their security clearance and it kind of makes sense if someone has um improperly handled uh classified
35:32 information so they're in a way saying I am not qualified to have access to it okay now by the way losing a security clearance often times meant that they lost the current job that they had because the the Billet they were in a a lot of billets in aviation and submarines require that um that uh the Personnel have a security clearance and indeed I think everyone on a submarine has at least a
36:07 secret clearance right um and to be in that environment you're going to almost inevitably be exposed to some classified data um if only when you're on a mission and you know where you are so you know it's it's expected that you'll keep that confidential so and by way um I never dealt with anyone who you know I think was a spy typically the disclosures were inadvertent so um for example they might disclose to a spouse um hey meet me you know in in in this place at this time
36:44 because you know we're going to be pulling into Port um and you know we're talking about a Submariner and and and that was classified information shouldn't have been disclosed and so bang There You Are improper disclosure so um if that sailor lost his security clearance he would probably also be transferred out of submarines um because he couldn't be on the boat any longer so that that's kind of the lowest level the next level is what's called njp non-judicial punishment and this is essentially a type of punishment where
37:19 the um accused appears before his commanding officer and um the there is a a discussion of what was done wrong there's a discussion of whether um what was alleged to have gone wrong actually happened and if so what the results were um and then the commanding assuming that the person is um held responsible so then the commanding officer is um uh authorized to discipline the person so in the Navy and Marine Corps we call
37:55 that going to mased or Captain's masted and it comes from when um wooden sailing ships existed and when these kind of disciplinary hearings were held they were held at the Mast one of the masts of the ship the wooden you know wooden um Mast that held the sales um now they're just held in the CO's office generally speaking um and the type of punishment could be anything from um um loss of pay it could be um depending on on the where it happens so if you went to njp on a ship you
38:32 could be put in the brg for a certain period of time you could be put in the brri and with o an only allowed bread and water I I know that sounds really archaic um but we had a situation a sailor in a squadron went to njp in this case it wasn't for um a breach of classified information he had been caught um with uh some illegal drugs um and he was was um put in the brg for I believe it was uh 30 days on bread and water so we could have all the bread and water to eat and drink he wanted but but that's all he got no ice cream no you
39:08 know no vegetables no nothing right um and and and it was difficult and he was bored out of his mind because I was the only person besides his um his chief petty officer um and his CEO who were allowed to interact with him and Co never did it's just not what cosos do generally speaking okay um and and by the way um another possibility for njp is what's called administrative separation so basically getting kicked out of the Navy if the breach was
39:44 serious enough um and especially if the um the service member shows you know no no remorse they very well could be um kicked out on an administrative basis basis um and by the way sometimes a loss of clearance will essentially affect the same thing so by losing their clearance they they no longer are able to operate in the Navy um and um and Marine Corps same thing and so they are kicked out now next up from there is a court Marshal if you've ever seen the movie um
40:19 uh shoot the one with Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruz um A Few Good Men okay now that's that's pretty heavily dramatized um but I I have um been um at court Marshal uh proceedings as a witness um and while the movie makes it much more dramatic it it largely works that way um and it's it's like a trial it's a trial held under the uniform code of military Justice the UCMJ um and and in this case um there there's a typically a jury it's
40:55 typically made up of officers and they they hear the accusations and the testimony supporting that they hear the defense and the testimonies supporting that and then they reach a decision just like any jury would um and and you know if the breach of classified data is serious enough the uh sailor could get Court marshaled okay um if for example if the Sailor took um some classified data some some secret data or top secret data and stored it in his room um maybe
41:31 he was intending to study it so he he wasn't intending to give it to you know any foreign agent or anything like that but but he took it out of a classified facility um or maybe he emailed it to himself um you know to his private um email address because you know he needed to study the information in preparation for a mission or something okay that would something like that would could very well be a court Marshal offense it's so egregious and once classified data is outside of the restricted control environment really anyone can
42:07 get a hold of it um by by the way when when um my family and I visited Hong Kong this was in 2001 I believe it was um I had to go through an intelligence briefing and one of the things I was told was I was not allowed to bring a cell phone a computer or anything like that into Hong Kong and if I did I would most likely be Court Marshal and the reason is because even if I didn't use those um devices in Hong Kong or and even if I
42:43 didn't you know go online in Hong Kong um once they were there um even if I didn't disclose that I was in the Navy it would pretty easily be found out and so it would be very likely that my room would be searched and if they found those devices they would very quickly download everything on them um even if it you know meant nothing in the end it was standard policy um for uh the Chinese government to do that even even back then when this is before Hong Kong was was was uh essentially taken over by
43:18 mainland China and and I I mean I thought that was pretty ridiculous at the time I was taking an online college course and and I I said to the man giving me the briefing I said look I'm taking this online college course I have to keep up with my studies I need my computer and he said well you got two choices take care of your college studies at a time other than when you're in Hong Kong and don't bring your computer with you or risk getting kicked out of the Navy and he said just so you know an admiral brought a a a laptop
43:53 into Hong Kong and he was sever severely disciplined for doing so an admiral right so okay well that sort of settled that I did not we did not bring cell phones we did not bring laptops we didn't bring any electronic devices um in in into Hong Kong that was it okay um but but Hadi it's it's entirely possible I I would have um been U you know held to a court Marshal okay and then finally if it's egregious enough it there could be criminal proceedings which is um I think there's a case pending right now I want to say a National Guardsman or something um uh disclose some U
44:31 classified data and I I think he's being prosecuted criminally um in addition to uh going through a court Marshal now from um a a private business standpoint right um all of these can apply right so to the extent that we have a system for determining who even gets to have access to uh confidential or secret uh data that our company has there should be some kind of system about um who who has access and if they if they misuse the um authority to access it then they lose
45:07 that Authority that may mean they get demoted um it may mean that they can no longer work at your company um and and that would all be I I think you know absolutely reasonable um you might have a a form of you know non-judicial punishment where the person's supervisor meets with the person and there's you know some kind of disciplinary measures um taken um now probably can't do loss of salary that that probably violates uh labor laws Etc um but there could be the person could be maybe
45:43 subject to being fired or being put on the leave of absence without pay um for a certain period of time in order to demonstrate the seriousness of what they did okay finally Court Marshal Pro probably not a a court Marshal in the sense of you know a jury trial within the confines of your company um that that I'm not sure that that necessarily makes sense but you may file a criminal proceeding against an employee who egregiously disclosed Secrets um especially if they were engaged in some kind of um industrial Espionage so all
46:20 of these um are with maybe the the exception of Court Marshal could be ways that you enforce um the keeping of of information confidential and secret on the part of your company so I know we went overtime um and uh I I think this was an important subject to cover um just real quickly then um these are places where you can ask questions get some help they'll be in the show notes here's the uh Legal Information and go ahead and close this out now so thank you very much for joining me today I
46:55 hope you found this interesting and um tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. is my show people making money we're going to be talking about how to maintain a business entity okay so just because you start an entity doesn't mean you're done there are things you need you may need to do quarterly annually every two years depending on what kind of entity it is and where it was organized etc etc so we're going to talk about um the um the most uh typical uh tasks um and filings that you have to make in order to maintain your business
47:31 entity so I hope you'll join me uh Wednesday tomorrow Wednesday at 10: amm Pacific time and then we'll be back next week Monday at 10: am for the next episode of trust and Estates weekly and seven days from today for the next episode of business lessons from the military so I thank you very much for watching today and um just signing off as I always do Marie you are my bell all the best folks have a great rest of the day