0:01 [music]
0:02 >> Who are you? And where are you going?
0:09 >> [music]
0:09 >> What do you want?
0:18 >> Hello and welcome to Trusts and Estates weekly. I'm your host Kevin Bemel and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and probate administration. Um kind of from the standpoint of professionals like myself and my guest Debbie who I'll introduce in just a moment who do this for a living but also for those of you who, you know, we might call you lay people. This isn't what you do for a living but oh gosh, you know, you were appointed executor of your parents' will and now you're caught up in probate and fig-
0:55 trying to figure all this out. So this is hopefully will help you learn more about it and be able to communicate with the your advisors in a more cogent fashion. So today I'm I'm very pleased to welcome my guest Debbie Babb. So um Debbie and I met um gosh, well, almost a year ago now I think it was. Sometime last year um I actually attended uh a webinar I'm not a webinar, I'm sorry, a seminar a live seminar uh that Debbie did at one of my favorite places. You all know me, right? It was at Total Wine.
1:30 >> [laughter]
1:30 >> So and um and and and Debbie just did an amazing job presenting her her topic which was primarily estate planning oriented. And so afterwards I said, "Hey, you know, got to have you on the show." So we finally were able to to schedule to to do an episode. And and so Debbie, first of all, thank you so much for being on the show today. I appreciate it.
1:54 >> Oh, thank Thank so much for having me.
1:56 >> Yeah. So you know, I'd like to start out by um having my guest give a little bit about their background so viewers can understand who they are, you know, how they came to I'm you know, there are there are always exceptions, but you know, typically people don't grow up thinking, "Hmm, I want to be an estate planning lawyer." You know, I wanted to be an astronaut, you know, right?
2:20 >> [laughter]
2:22 >> Exactly. Yeah, no, exactly. But actually, I am a third-generation lawyer, so I think it was sort of uh preordained that I would become a lawyer. Um I remember being in high school and my grandmother asking me what I wanted to do when I grew up and I thought my dad's, we called them legal secretaries at the time, I thought my dad's legal secretaries were just so sophisticated and that's what I wanted to be. And my grandmother was like, "Well, maybe you should be the lawyer." And I said, "Oh, that's a really good idea." Um but even before high school, I I like
2:58 to say that I started my legal career in the seventh grade because I would take the uh bus after school to my dad's and grandfather's law practice and answer the phones. Um I was really just waiting for a ride home, but they kept me busy anyway. And um after high school, I attended Smith College in Massachusetts and then came back home. I grew up in uh Los Angeles. Um came back home and attended USC Law School, going into big law afterward, eventually becoming partner. And my practice was focused on real estate
3:35 transactional work. Um but after a while, it was time for something new and uh both my dad and my brother have their own practices, so I was like, "You know what? I'm going to hang out my own shingle." And um I'd been thinking a lot about what practice area I wanted to start cuz when I was in the big law firm, I was representing national REITs and I just did not think they'd be calling Debbie Bablaw. So, um, I had administered my, um, second cousin's estate and seeing how she had
4:11 done her trust and just everything being so easy and, um, with the planning with proper planning. Um, she made such a hard time in my life so much easier cuz she had planned ahead and I was like, you know what? This is what I want to do for people. And it's been such a wonderful choice. My work is so meaningful. I really like so meaningful for me and I have such a passion for it. I feel like I have the best job because I get to protect people with planning and give them peace of mind. And then, you know, in California
4:48 probate so expensive. So, I get to save them so much money. So,
4:53 >> Wow.
4:53 >> That's my story.
4:54 >> Yeah, so I have to, you know, it's so when you talked about how sophisticated the legal secretaries were, it did take me that my first job after college was clerking at a law office and I had a huge crush on the law legal secretary there cuz she was like so sophisticated, right? I mean, I was obviously way too young for her but [laughter] I was like, "Woah." You know. And and by the way, you know, fight on, right? Trojans. So,
5:20 >> There you go. Yeah.
5:21 >> So, you know, and you've been you've been doing this for for a while now. So, why don't you please start out by, you know, maybe identifying the maybe the two, three, four what you see as being the most important issues for people to be thinking about, when it comes to, you know, putting together their estate plan and and dealing with that that whole topic.
5:51 >> Okay. Yeah. Good. It's going to be hard to limit myself to two, three, or four, but let me let me
5:58 >> Well, we have time limitations, right?
5:59 >> Exactly. We could talk about this all day. First of all, it is so important to talk with a lawyer to determine if you need an estate plan. Most of us do. Some of us choose not to do an estate plan, and they figure they're going to do it just by beneficiary designation, or putting somebody else's name on an account. Um beneficiary designation does not work if there's an incapacity. And also, when you designate
6:36 beneficiaries, you're not able to put any guardrails around the way the inheritance is transferred, and for many people, they should not receive an inheritance in all just one lump sum. And then the joint accounts, when you put somebody else's name on one of your accounts, and that person has any trouble where they become liable, those accounts, even though that's your money, now be can be used to satisfy any of their liabilities. So, it's
7:13 mean very you need to tread very carefully. Um so, I recommend it's so worth it, right, working with an attorney to make sure that it's done properly. Too many of these online wills, or trustandwills.com, or you know, other I don't want to name I shouldn't be naming, I guess, individual companies, but you know, people don't know what they don't know, and they don't know what these questions are asking. And also, these online resources just aren't built out enough to give people the advice
7:48 they need to do it correctly. Um and then also, like I see them all the time, right? And that's always after the person Well, not always. In some cases, I see them where somebody has this niggling feeling that it wasn't done correctly, so they ask me to review it. So, then we're, you know, starting all over most of the time anyway. So, it's not like it doesn't cost It's not nothing to use these online programs. Um so, um and then something that I really want your listeners to understand is that this is not a one-and-done
8:25 transaction. This is a plan that has to be kept up to date over time. Um and part of that is making sure that the assets If you're doing a trust-based plan, that the assets stay in the trust or if you acquire new assets, that they that they get put in the trust. Um And, you know, circling back, even just the first time you're doing your plan, knowing what needs to go in your trust and what doesn't, and having the advice of counsel to hold your hand through all of that, and then hold your hand to make sure assets
9:02 actually get in your trust. Because if you don't put assets in your trust properly, then you're in probate court, and your trust isn't worth the paper it's written on. So, I see a lot of waste, like people think they're saving money, um but this is one area of the law where I can guarantee you it's worth the investment, right? So,
9:27 >> Yeah, for sure.
9:28 >> because you and I see this when there's been a death or there's an incapacity, and it I wasn't done right, and you have to tell the loved ones like okay, we're in probate court. But mom and dad did a trust. We were avoiding probate court. And I was like, yes, but they didn't do it correctly. And I, you know, and it's so heartbreaking, right? Like I hate having to deliver that news, but
9:55 >> Right.
9:55 >> especially because keep in mind or in we're only in probate court when something terrible has happened, right? Like when mom or dad has lost capacity or mom and dad or dad has passed away, right? Like
10:11 >> Mhm.
10:11 >> And then it's the circumstances for being in probate court are never positive. And now you're just adding expense and stress and um
10:24 >> Right.
10:24 >> Anyway, I think you get my point.
10:26 >> Yeah, yeah. And And I I think too and and I'm I'm I'm curious uh you know, what you think about this. Now, I this may be just because this is where my practice happens to sit, but what I see is so often when there is not an estate plan and people end up in probate court, by the time anything's, you know, starts to even be slightly resolved, there's all kinds of conflict that has developed in the meantime. Heirs are fighting, siblings are are at each other's
11:02 throats, uh you know, the the daughter of the first marriage wants to, you know, not literally, but you know, wants to brain the second wife, you know, kind of thing, right? These are the kind of things that go on. I'm just how I mean, is is my experience, you know, somewhat unique because that's when they want to call in someone like me or or or how do you find that in general?
11:29 >> I find that a crisis like death or incapacity with grief and stress does not ever bring out the best in us. And many of us handle stress and grief, I mean, we all handle it in different ways. And for many of us it does bring out confrontation. Remember, we're talking about money and family. And money equals survival to many people. And when their survival is threatened, then it brings out, you
12:06 know, it's just fear, right? And they're worried that somebody's pulling a fast one over them. And it's hard. And people project, right? So, um and we've all got our scars from childhood, too, that all come out now. So, um yeah. So, you're not your experience is not unique. I see it all the time. Now, there are occasions where it goes smoothly, but I would say that that is
12:42 the exception and not the rule. That's why we have so many probate litigators in this town. They and you know, they're making their living helping, you know, people navigate these tough situations, right?
12:59 >> Mhm.
13:00 >> [clears throat]
13:00 >> Um it's it's stressful, and that doesn't bring out the best in people.
13:06 >> Right. Right. Yeah, I I and I I mean, I I joke and I'm joking somewhat, but I I I rarely do people, you know, call up a lawyer and say, "Hey, I've got this problem, and I want your help solving it, and I want you to be really nice and really kind and very gentle." Right? It's It's like, "No, no, no, attack them, tear them apart, destroy them." Um maybe they don't say that literally, but but that's kind of the subtext to it. And and when you add in the family dynamic the family dimension to this, so you know where everybody's soft underbelly is, so to speak, right? And so it it just I
13:42 think it exacerbates that whole problem.
13:44 >> Right. And I do think many of the the litigators out there like, you know, they caution their clients like, let's please try to take the emotion out of this and just be practical because you're going to end up spending so much time, which means so much money. But um you know, we all see estates just getting eaten up by the legal fees because as much as the lawyers are trying to counsel their clients to leave the emotion aside, people can't help it. I mean, right? Cuz
14:19 it's survival. It's fear and all these human emotions come up.
14:26 >> Right. So, talk about the kind of things that you do in an estate plan that help families avoid these these kind of conflicts, right? That's that's really the the key. I I I don't want to say it's the only reason for an estate plan, but to my mind, the maintenance of good relationships in some ways outweighs the financial aspect.
14:50 >> I I totally agree with you. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this. And I approach estate planning where I think parents, more than anything, and of course they want to pass on financial accounts and assets um in an efficient way, minimize taxes, make sure that they end up in the right hands, don't get lost to the, you know, state department of unclaimed property. But I think more than anything parents care about having their children's
15:25 relationships stay intact. And it's certainly not um degrade any further than they might already be. And hopefully, you know, now that the parents are gone, um that the relationships go you know, are even um strengthened. And so doing an estate plan with the eye where we're going to minimize conflict or the potential for conflict is really important. And part of that is just having a plan that stays up to date over time. We've listed the assets. We know
16:02 where to find them. The assets, if we're doing a trust-based plan, are in the trust. The trust is up to date. It's in compliance with current law. You know, law changes. Um and that it still reflects the the client's priorities. Um And then and so if when the plan is up to date, it's going to work when the family needs it to. Meaning we're not going to have to litigate anything. And then another thing that I think is really
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17:14 challenges into peace of mind. call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. Okay, so you were saying that, you know, properly uh drafted uh estate plan, the trust is funded, everything's being kept up to date, and and I I I cut you off there, so
17:40 >> Right. Um and because we do that because we care so much about our children's relationships, and we want to minimize any stress. Like what we're doing is we're wrapping everything up in a nice neat bow, right? Everything There's still so much that needs to be done when there's a death. It's a legal and financial administrative process, and it's over it can be overwhelming, but at least having an up-to-date plan and being able to easily find all the accounts,
18:15 um really goes a long way to easing the burden. But another thing that we're we're So, we're thinking about, you know, our our we do this for It's really an act of love. And Kevin, if you can think of a greater act of love than having a plan that's going to work when your loved ones need it to, I would If you can think of a greater act of love, please share, cuz I haven't been I Like that's a bold statement, right? And I get that it's self-serving, cuz this is my business, but I can't think of anything else. But so,
18:50 having this this gift all wrapped up in a neat bow, everything organized, that is going to preserve, you know, people are going to be people, but that's going to go a long way to preserve relationships among our adult children. And then also, we want to think about how we're leaving our state, if we're you know, how we're leaving it to our our children and making sure that they're getting their inheritance in a healthy way for them. We all know people, you know, who if they struggle with we, you know, we call lifestyle disabilities like addiction to
19:27 drugs, alcohol, gambling, you know, you name it. Like if they are given a bunch of money it could literally kill them.
19:38 >> Mhm.
19:39 >> Or, you know, a lot of us want to make sure that that inheritance is there for our children when they need it. So, you know, we don't want too much money going to our children before their brains are developed enough that they can manage the money and then also even people who inherit, you know, at a at a more advanced age like 30s, 40s, you know, they don't understand the consequences of putting their inheritance in a joint account and putting their
20:15 spouse's name on that account and now they've converted their inheritance, which is separate property, into community property and if there's a problem later in the marriage, then, you know, the spouse can get half in some cases. So,
20:31 >> Right.
20:31 >> really I spend a lot of time with my clients um thinking about these issues like how to keep the family together, the loved ones together, not cause strife and then what's a healthy way to pass on the the estate.
20:47 >> So, and I I I as you might imagine, I talk to a lot of uh trust and estate lawyers and I I get different responses to this question. So, I'm I'm I'm curious to know what you think and that is um on the issue of socializing the plan with your, you know, your heirs, your beneficiaries in advance. Uh what You know, some No, no, no, this is your plan, you know, you do what you want. Others are like, no, no, if you really want to avoid conflict, you know, they should at least know what it says. I'm Like I said, I'm curious to know,
21:22 what is your perspective on that issue? Cuz I think it really is an important very, very important issue.
21:28 >> I agree. I like at a minimum for the adult children to know who I am. So, I include a family meeting. I also include like I like to work with the clients' other advisors if they have them, their CPA and their financial advisor, instead of having to make the client play operator. Like I like to just all, you know, do a a meeting where So, we're all on the same page and we understand things about the client that maybe the client forgot to share with one of us.
21:57 >> Right.
21:58 >> Um so, and then getting back to how much to share with the adult children, I do it's really uh sorry, I hate this answer, but really depends, right? Um depends on how old the children are, if there's any likelihood that the plan may change over time. So, every time I'm doing a family meeting, I meet with my client, the the parents, um and we talk, you know, about how much we should share. But at a minimum, I like the adult children to know that a plan
22:34 has been created. Uh oh, and this is my opportunity to share if the adult children haven't been named co-trustees. I hate, you know, in There are a couple of circumstances where I'll name co-trustees, but mostly when you name children to serve as co-trustees, you end up with no trustees. So, I like to be the bad guy, right? Like I like to tell the in this family meeting, I'll tell the adult children that I would not let your parents' name co-trustees. Like I wouldn't let them. Like it's my, you
23:10 know, get Don't get mad at me. Get Or don't get mad at your parents, get mad at me.
23:14 >> Right.
23:14 >> Um and
23:17 >> Why is that? I mean, again, what what why do you think it's important that they not be co-trustees?
23:24 >> Oh, because as soon as there's a disagreement, there's no no way to move forward, right? We're stalled. And so we can't administer the estate. So that's why I say when you have co-trustees, when they disagree, you have no trustees.
23:40 >> Right. Got you. Got you. Mhm.
23:43 >> So it, you know, again, I do like to have a fam Oh, one other thing why I think it's really important to have this family meeting is for the adult children to know that I exist because one of the things that the parents are putting in place when they work with me is that they've got a trusted advisor to help their kids when they can't be there themselves. And so they've met me, you know, at a calm time, nothing is on the horizon, and they know that I'm here for them. Their parents have, you know, put a trusted advisor in place and somebody
24:19 who can hold their hand and walk them through things when the parents can't do so for themselves.
24:25 >> Yeah. It strikes me that that what you just said a moment ago is is more Other other lawyers have said it to me, but it didn't strike me until you said it that for them to know who you are. Otherwise, and I have this happen a couple of years ago, a lawyer friend of mine, he was the one to call, in this case there was just one heir, it was the decedent's son, and tell him, "Hey, you know, your father has died." And he had never met He was a, you know, youngish man in his early to mid-30s, so he wasn't a child
25:00 or anything, but but still that's a very difficult thing to do. Uh, you know, to to what is essentially a stranger. I mean, I I know from having done notifications in the Navy when someone was killed, you know, you Oh my gosh, it's like the most traumatic thing from both sides. Right?
25:20 >> Right.
25:20 >> And so for them to know you at least at least there's some some kind of connection there.
25:26 >> Right, exactly. I mean, I don't think a lot of people never want to talk to a lawyer, but if they've met me um, way ahead of any, you know, stressful times and they see that I'm like friendly and kind, right? Like I'm a I'm here to help them, not to you know, cause more stress in their life. And then another thing you know, people often don't have documents that they need at their fingertips. They're just not wired to be as organized. Um, and I definitely, you
26:01 know, have challenges in lots of areas of my life, but I'm very organized. And I have my clients' documents available for their health care agents, their successor trustees like on a moment's notice. So, um, knowing that there's somebody that can help them in crisis.
26:18 >> Right.
26:19 >> I mean, to a within the in my lane, right? Like
26:23 >> Right. Right, of course. Of course.
26:24 >> You wouldn't be coming to me for medical advice, but um, helping navigate, you know, I'm an agent under a health care directive or you know, mama's died. What do I do? You know, um
26:37 >> So, so um what do you see as and and obviously this will vary on the on based on the client's specifics of their situation, but typically what do you see as being the essential parts of an estate plan? Because we really we've talked about a trust, um but I think I think we you and I would both agree a trust is just one part. There are other parts that people need to have, and they're probably not nearly as well-known as oh, you need to have a
27:13 trust.
27:13 >> Right, exactly. So, the documents, the core documents are the the trust, you still need a will even with a trust, health care directive, and financial power of attorney. Um those are the core. There's more that I often include, um but those are the core. But the thing is the documents are only one piece. In order to have a plan, you need, you know, a list of all the assets, where to find them. You need to check the beneficiary designations
27:49 on your um life insurance policies, your retirement accounts, your qualified retirement accounts only pass by beneficiary designation. We want to take a look and make sure everything is coordinated. We want to take a look and see how all the various uh properties, your assets, are titled, um and make sure everything is titled and so that it all works together. Um some things, you know, a lot of your assets, if you have a trust, will be titled in
28:24 the trust, but some things we may intentionally not be putting in the trust, but and we're expecting them to pass by beneficiary designation. But let's look at those beneficiary designations, and keep in mind that financial institutions, you know, there's a lot of mergers, software changes, upgrades, these financial these beneficiary designations can get lost over time.
28:50 >> Mhm.
28:51 >> And we need to be double-checking and that's also just part of comprehensive planning. So, we're taking a look at our clients, families, you know, children get born, grandchildren are born, we buy properties, we sell properties, our priorities change. So, we need to keep it all up-to-date and comprehensively. Actually, I just had a really good article published on my newsletter. It's on my website about
29:27 like why a quick and easy um trust review there's no such thing. You need to be examining every aspect. You want to make sure that the documents are up-to-date, so they're you know, complying with today's law and that they take advantage of today's law. By the way, Kevin, just for your listeners, anybody who did a trust 10 years ago really should re-look at have a lawyer re-look at it because there's some good planning that was done for the laws that existed 10 years ago, but with our
30:03 federal estate tax exemption so high now, it's going to cause unnecessary complication,
30:11 >> Mhm. [clears throat]
30:12 >> which also means expense. And you know, I don't want to get into the step-up in basis right now, but people are going to lose the second step-up in basis and as you know, that's going to be very, very costly.
30:24 >> Right.
30:25 >> Anyway,
30:27 >> Yeah. So, uh I I had a it's funny when I love these interviews because my guests often times bring up points that resonate, you know, with things that have happened to me. So, um back in 2024, I was brought into an intestate succession 4 months before First Republic Bank or before JP Morgan closed its acquisition of First Republic Bank. And I'm I bet you I bet you know what I'm going to say.
31:03 The decedent had a business and all the accounts for the business were held at First Republic Bank, right? And I was in a I could I couldn't transact because I I had to be appointed initially, right? And and I at first I was appointed a special administrator, you know, on an expedited basis. And and First Republic, all it was all it really cared about was we've got to merge with JP Morgan and and it was crazy-making trying to administrate this estate that had an operating business in it without
31:38 access to bank accounts. So, I'm I'm you know, again, I'd love to hear your thoughts cuz I I suspect again, this is not a unique situation to to me. But it's probably something that you deal with, you know, unfortunately, probably much more often than you'd want to.
31:58 >> Right. Well, fortunately, banks don't close every day. So, you just have was just bad luck. I don't know that I mean, it made perfect sense for the decedent to have all of his or her business accounts at First Republic, right? Who could have predicted? Um I don't really know, you know, what could Maybe the lesson to learn is have accounts at multiple institutions.
32:34 Um
32:34 >> Well, now I should I should I should he died intestate.
32:37 >> Oh.
32:37 >> All right? So, you know, that would
32:40 >> Oh. Well, that that's what makes it so complicated.
32:43 >> Right, exactly. So, for someone who has a business, what do you What do you What is the best way or what is a a good way, right, for them to facilitate the continuity of that business, even if in the end it's going to be sold? At least in the short term, the business has to continue to operate, otherwise it's going to lose its value, right?
33:04 >> Right.
33:05 >> So, so what do you When you talk to your clients and they have a business as part of their estate, you know, what How do you talk to them about it? What are some of the things you you you discuss?
33:16 >> Business owners, and we know business owners are so focused on their businesses and achieving their business goals, but we have to get them to pick up their heads and do their estate planning. We need to get them to take a moment to plan, and we need to transfer their business interest into their trust. So, if the worst happens, we have that successor trustee just picking things up the very next day and can um handle the business. Also, putting together a business succession plan so
33:51 that everybody like people know where the keys are to the office, where the people who can access the accounts can access the accounts, payroll can be made. If you have a partner, a business partner, we need a buy-sell agreement because if if the decedent's married, the decedent's partner probably doesn't want to be in business with the spouse. And there probably aren't liquid assets that want to be pulled out of the estate like of the business or the estate to
34:27 buy out the decedent's interest. So, now the partner or partners, you know can own the decedent's interest. So a buy-sell agreement funded with life insurance is really important. And getting that life insurance and a buy-sell and you got to keep the buy-sell up to date over time. So we've got a good mechanism for valuing the business. Um and then you'll want to do this early because I hope most people know the younger and healthier healthier you are the cheaper the life insurance is. And over time
35:02 and business owners are so focused on their businesses that unhealthy habits you know creep in. And
35:12 >> [laughter]
35:13 >> and um and sometimes you know life insurance just can become unaffordable and so you got to do this early and then your estate planning lawyer like needs to be checking in with you often, right? That's because you got to keep an eye on the value of the business and you got to figure out your exit plan. Um you dealing with disability, death, divorce, you know anything. And so having it's you know for business owners estate planning is critical.
35:48 >> Absolutely. Let's take another break and we'll we'll come back. Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Rabalais, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most
36:23 practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time searching. So, you know, in in aside from from business owners, which I I honestly I couldn't agree with you more. Business owners in particular need to uh you know, have an estate plan and and it's probably going to be more robust than a non-business owner because of the business. So, there's a whole another sort of class of assets out there now
37:00 that I think more in which more and more people are getting involved and and I think they're not paying attention uh to some of the unique aspects of these and that is things like cryptocurrency investments, other types of you know, non-fungible tokens and these sort of things where, you know, you you in general you can't you know, call up whoever it is, Fidelity, and and you know, go to their uh you know, uh the department that handles, you know, the the transfer of assets because somebody's died. Um so, what um I'm I'm
37:37 I'm I'm interested to know, what is your experience working with these sort of newer types of assets and and and again, how do you talk with your clients about them?
37:49 >> Yes, and crypto, I mean, we have to take asset by asset, right? So, but you mentioned crypto specifically, it really depends on how it's held. Some of it can be easily transferred into your trust, but some of it just cannot be and we have to, you know, by its nature, it's um you know, private, right? Like it's off the grid, right? So, it makes it much more challenging to pass on. And in some cases, you know, it might not if you haven't taken the
38:24 proper steps, you may not be able to pass it on. So, you really need to be aware of that. It's just the nature of the asset. So, when you're working with your estate planning lawyer, like what I do, I take each, you know, I get a list of the client's assets. I call it the treasure map and I say we want to make sure your successor trustee can find everything. And um depending we have to for depending on the asset, like real estate, I transfer by deed. Business, I transfer by business assignment or we retitle stock certificates, that kind of thing.
38:59 Financial accounts that are held with a financial institution, work with the client's financial advisor. IRAs, life insurance, we look at the beneficiary designation. But crypto, we have to take a close look at exactly what type. So, is it a cold wallet, you know, what is the wallet? Like so, it's hard to give I can't give just a general statement. It's very much very fact dependent.
39:30 >> Okay. And and another another type of asset that I think is potentially more common in California or Los Angeles because I think we're still the entertainment capital of the world, not sure, but all right, we're clinging onto that title. A lot of people have intellectual property, right? Whether it's you know, scripts they've written for you know, TV, movies, whatever or whether they they own, you know, or they have an ownership interest in a published work, music, again, you know, video works, whatever. So, talk if you would about
40:07 that class of assets, which I think is also important.
40:11 >> Right, exactly. I'm so glad you brought that up. Yes, and we can assign royalty streams into a trust. We can assign copyrights and trademarks. Each type we have to follow specific um uh the procedures, but we just navigate it. Again, it's asset by asset. And then this is something, you know, again, I think for all estate planning, even those who think their their estates are so simple, working with a lawyer
40:48 making sure, you know, having it done correctly, and then properly getting the assets into the trust, which, you know, as we were talking about, like every type of asset there's different requirements, right? So, and getting it we need to follow those requirements and get it properly into the trust, and that's how we avoid probate court. So, which is very expensive.
41:15 >> Yes. So, I I I I I have two more two more questions cuz we're we're getting toward the end of our time. The first question is um what advice do you have for you know, typically I think it would be children who, you know, they're watching their parents get older and they're watching this and they're going, I really don't want to have to face probate, right? But their parents are reluctant or maybe even adamantly
41:51 opposed for various reasons to having an estate plan. What what advice do you have for, you know, children in a situation like that that, you know, perhaps will help them I don't know, change their parents' mind maybe or or open their parents' minds at least?
42:08 >> Right. I know that is such a tough one. Um sometimes parents are just resistant to paying for it. So, if the adult child pays for it, knowing that it's worth the investment, right? Because probate's so much more expensive than doing a a proper estate plan. So, sometimes just having the child pay for it addresses the parents' reluctance. And then just if that doesn't do it, just sharing, you know,
42:43 how much it's going to the impact it's going to have. Not just the financial cost, but the stress involved. And you know, if the the adult child does the legwork to find a lawyer that um they think their parents will like and be comfortable with. I mean, people don't I don't blame them. Like, I don't like when I've had to talk to lawyers for my own personal needs. Like, it's not a fun thing to do. But, if you can find somebody that's approachable and warm, I have clients all the time tell me they can't believe how easy
43:17 >> Mhm. [clears throat]
43:18 >> the plan like they we get to their signing date and they're like, "Wow, I feel so good. And I didn't realize how easy this could be." So, maybe interviewing some lawyers to, you know, and then present one or two, maybe just one, right? Like, reduce the friction. And um where the the the the parent feels comfortable. Um And also, you know, there's nobody I haven't had any clients die because they did their estate planning.
43:53 Some people think if they do their plan and they they talk about death that they're going to die. I mean, every But, everybody's going to die. I've had two clients die that I've done their plan, but they came to me sick. So, they knew they were they were already like
44:09 >> [clears throat]
44:09 >> death was imminent. And also just impressing upon people like you don't want to be dealing with this on an emergency basis. Like if you are dying then I want you spending as much time with your family, not talking to me. Like doing this on an emergency basis is it's not it's it's not good planning, the quality, like we just can't, right? Like you're rushing to make decisions and you're stressed and you're not thinking clearly.
44:44 Um it's just a terrible time to be doing plan You got to do this before. So, and then you know what, Kevin? That's why there's always going to be probate court because as hard as we try to get people to do their planning
44:56 >> Mhm.
44:57 >> some people just flat-out refuse. So,
45:01 >> Yeah. So, I this is another I think it's it's it's it's it's a difficult subject. I and I don't actually remember ever asking another guest this question, but I think it's it it can be in the back of people's minds and uh and and you you have a very nice way about you. So, I think you you probably would be more effective in dealing with this than than perhaps others. But what about a situation where someone specifically wants to disinherit someone
45:37 else, right? That's you know, for you know, if someone dies intestate, no will, no trust, etc. So, now basically the state of California has your estate plan for you. You have no say over who's going to, you know, inherit your your uh your estate. Um but what I mean, what is your experience with with that issue of, you know I don't want you know such and such to be involved or get any part of my estate.
46:11 >> Yeah, we can do it. You want to do it way before there's a chance you're going to die. You don't want any concern about undue influence you know because the person disinherited they'll claim that the trust is invalid or the will is invalid because there was undue influence meaning that the person making the trust the say the parent was um you know being preyed upon and
46:46 influenced not to to disinherit or that they lacked capacity like they didn't have the mental capacity to be making a will or a trust. So you want to do it when when um none of that is an issue and you you don't want to do it at the last minute either because again it's stressful thinking stressful planning. Um and there's things that we can do you know we can have a doctor opine the letter from doctor you know
47:22 the the person making the plan has been examined and the doctor you know writes a letter saying that hey I examined this person they're in their right mind this is you know they entered their made their trust or will with full capacity.
47:41 >> Mhm.
47:43 >> So you when you disinherit somebody you do like you know a child for example you have to be really careful and Um, but there's ways you can do it.
47:57 >> Yeah. Yeah. So, don't want to end on a down note. So,
48:01 >> [laughter]
48:02 >> how about a kind of, you know, kind of a closing thought that that will, you know, bring us bring us back up a little bit.
48:09 >> Let's circle back to estate planning is what you do for the people you love because you love them and you want you know when you die it's going to be or when you lose capacity that it's going to be a really hard time for your loved ones. And so, you want to do the planning. You want to do it right because you want it to work when your loved ones need it to.
48:32 >> Right. Right. Very good. Well, Debbie, thank you so much for being my guest today. I I just really great thoughts and information on on the subject. I really appreciate it.
48:44 >> It was fun. Thank you so much for having me and help letting me help spread the word about how important this is.
48:49 >> Absolutely.
48:50 >> you for all that you do to spread the word.
48:53 >> Thank you. I'll have you hang tight just for a minute while I wrap up. So, uh, you know, you you you can see by um, Debbie's level of knowledge, her demeanor, um, just her whole approach to this that if if you need an estate plan that by the way, this is when I give the shameless plug for my guest cuz when you know, most most guests with their too modest to do so. But, you can see that that you will be in absolutely excellent hands, um, if you if you need to speak to a lawyer about an estate plan. And all of Debbie's contact information will be in the show notes,
49:28 uh, after this, uh, episode posts on on YouTube, uh, Apple podcast, and Spotify. So, um, I would say don't don't hesitate to reach out to Debbie if you have questions or if you you think you you need her help. I know she'll be absolutely, uh, delighted to to, you know, to have the opportunity to talk with you. Uh, so, uh, let's see, real quickly, tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. is my show business lessons from the military. Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. is people making money, and then every other Thursday is my show Jiggers' Place at 5:00 p.m.
50:04 These are all Pacific time. We'll sit back at Jiggers' Place and have a cocktail, and we'll talk about something completely unrelated to finances as we head toward the end of the week. So, I I thank you very much for for joining my guest Debbie and I today. Debbie, again, thank you very, very much for for all of your thoughts and and and, you know, good information. And that just leaves me to sign off and say uh courage at all times, my friends. Marie darling, you are my bell. All the best.