0:01 [music]
0:02 >> Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want?
0:23 >> Hello and welcome to Jigger's Place. I'm your host Kevin Bammel and I'm here every other Thursday at 5:00 p.m. Pacific time to have a cocktail and a schmooze as we say. And you may have noticed it's almost summertime. I'm wearing shorts with a sports coat and I'm doing this for a reason and that's because last week I was up in Nevada City, California at a beautiful hotel called the National Exchange uh hotel and I I got up there on a Wednesday kind of late afternoon,
0:58 checked in, you know, put my bags up in my room and I decided to go down to the bar and have a drink. And so, I was sitting at the bar and on one side of me was a couple and on the other side were three women. And I'm just, you know, quietly having my drink and the woman next to me turns to me and she goes, "What is this about?" I said, [laughter] "What is what about?" And she said, "Jacket with shorts." I was wearing this jacket and these shorts, although I got this shirt in Nevada City. So, I wasn't wearing this shirt. And I said, "Well,
1:33 it's hot outside. It's in the 90s." And she said, "I've never seen someone wear shorts with a jacket before." I said, "Well, now you have." Uh we had a actually had a nice conversation. Uh but uh I I you know, since then uh a number of people have told me, "Yeah, I've never heard of this before." Uh if you go to the farmers market in Mar will see me dressed this way you know, from time to time. So, I don't know. English schoolboys dressed this way all the time, I think, or they used to anyway. But,
2:08 I digress. So, we're here to have a cocktail and talk about courtesy and civility. And in honor of this topic, I decided to have the most civil cocktail, and that is the gin martini. You may wonder why I think the gin martini is the most civil cocktail, and that's because The Thin Man and his wife uh drink martinis. Wonderful movies. If you have not seen them, I've talked about them before, you have to watch The Thin Man movies. It's
2:43 one of the few where the sequels are as good as the original one. In fact, I think the second one maybe is actually the best. But anyway, I'm I'm I I love gin martinis. It's one of my favorite cocktails. I'm going to be making it with my rat gin, which is good old Tanqueray London Dry Gin. I've got some Cinzano extra dry vermouth. And I'm I am going to put a dash of orange bitters in it. This is just good old Angostura orange bitters. And it's I
3:19 I use a simple 4:1 ratio. I do like my martinis dry, although not bone dry, which would be just, you know, looking at the label of the vermouth while you drink gin. Um to borrow a joke from TV show MASH. So, we're going to start out with 2 oz of of gin. And I'm pouring it right up there. I have my mixing glass with ice in it. And uh unlike James Bond, I like my
3:54 martinis uh stirred, not shaken. And, I also like mine with gin, whereas um uh James Bond drank uh vermouth I'm sorry, vodka martinis um and he also um he drank them with uh Lillet Blanc, as I understand it, not not vermouth. So, they're a little bit different. I've never had Lillet Blanc Blanc because it's not kosher, but uh I hear it's great stuff. Put in a dash of the orange bitters. I'll put in two dashes, why not?
4:29 >> [snorts]
4:29 >> Um okay, and we're going to stir it up. You know, martinis are just they're a great cocktail if if you're if you haven't made cocktails before, martini's a good place to start. It's just really two ingredients, gin and vermouth. And, depending on which gin you use and which vermouth you use, there's lots of different ones out there. Um you can have a lot of different cocktails and and different flavors. Um while traditionally it was made with
5:05 London dry gin, there's all kinds of international gins out there that are superb. They have a different flavor palette than uh London dry. Um and and some are better with uh with uh sweet vermouth, otherwise known as Italian vermouth, which is usually red in color. Um others are better with dry. You can experiment and just just try them out um and have a lot of fun. You can you you know, you can really indulge in cocktails, even if the only cocktail you know how to make is a martini. Okay,
5:40 we're going to pour this out. There we go. I am not I don't care for olives. I know most people love olives in their Martinis. Um I'm I sometimes will put an onion in, but today I'm just going to have the Martini all by itself. Isn't that lovely? Mhm. Wonderful. Okay. See you on the couch.
6:49 Ah, so here we are at another toward [snorts] the toward the end of the of a week. And uh you know, it's it's it's a time to relax and uh just kind of uh think about the week that's going to be ending soon and and have a cocktail. Mhm.
7:18 >> [snorts]
7:20 >> Nice thing about a Martini is they're good all year round.
7:24 >> [snorts]
7:24 >> Uh so the topic for this episode of Jigger's Place is courtesy and civility and and the first your first thought may be what's the difference? And there there is a a difference. I'm going to get my my sphere out here. Um yeah, yeah, colors, good enough.
7:50 >> [snorts]
7:50 >> Um So, the the fact of the matter is, regrettably, I think, we live in a a time when um discourtesy and and incivility are rampant. Um And it's it's it's everywhere. It used to be that people who were uh more religious tended to be more courteous um and more civil. I'm
8:26 I I see lots of religious people who are not, unfortunately. Um [snorts] shame on them. Uh and and there there's been certainly since I was uh a lad, as they say, a coarsening of society, and I I think that's really regrettable for a whole number of reasons. The first is,
8:53 >> [snorts]
8:53 >> especially if you live in a city like I do, it just makes life that much more difficult. So, when there when there are a lot of people around, it it it helps to make life easier when we're courteous and civil. Uh so, I think that's one issue. Another issue is, if we want to have good relationships and build strong relationships, uh certainly courtesy is requisite, but I think [snorts]
9:30 civility is as well. And I I'll another example from my trip last week. So,
9:40 >> [snorts]
9:40 >> um I was um uh going to my hotel one afternoon and [snorts] um uh there was a woman standing at the entrance of the hotel and as I come walking up, she opened the door for me. She was not the doorman or the doorwoman. She was actually just She wasn't even staying in the hotel as it turned out. Uh and so, when she opened the door, I joked to her. I said, "Well, this isn't right. I should be opening the door for you. You're the lady." And and she said, "No, no, it's fine. I'm I'm happy to open the door for you."
10:16 So, we got into a little conversation. She ended up inviting me to go with her and her friends uh bar hopping. So, of course, I accepted. And um [snorts] we ended up at a place uh where they were playing music. And so, um we're sitting and and um kind of listening to the music and uh just talking. And uh I normally will not discuss politics, especially with someone I've just met,
10:52 uh because it is a minefield of a subject oftentimes. And uh I I I do not want to offend people, even people I disagree with. Uh I I want to create comedy uh among people. And uh so, in the course of our conversation, she brought up a political issue and I tried to sort of finesse it by just saying to her, "Oh, that's interesting. Why why do you think that?" Um
11:28 and unfortunately, she wouldn't let it go. So, I finally said to her, I said, "You know, I [snorts] I don't get too passionate about politics. Not that it's not important, it is. Uh but, I would much rather deal with it in the context of uh being able to uh get along with people and understand other people, um you know, rather than potentially create bad feeling. And her response I thought was
12:03 interesting. She said, "Oh, I dated a guy like that, and it was it was kind of a negative thing, I guess, from her perspective that uh that I didn't want to, you know, get into a political dispute." And I think that's unfortunate, uh because and and and and um I I I kind of got the feeling I had kind of gotten the feeling before that that she might like me to have, you know, asked her for her number or something, or
12:38 maybe, you know, I don't know, asked her out or something. And I realized, "Yeah, see, this is not this is not someone with whom I share the value of civility." Uh unfortunately. And and she was very nice, don't get me wrong. She was uh courteous. She held the door for me. Um but we did not see um I think even remotely the same on this issue of civility. And and and that highlights the difference between the two. So,
13:14 courtesy is a a personal one-on-one way that we relate to other people. So, to be courteous is to be thoughtful of the other person directly. Uh so, so for example, it's to say please, thank you, you're welcome. It's In former times, we might have called it
13:49 well-mannered. And I I I I know of someone who's prominent here in the Los Angeles community who uh pooh-poohs manners as being, "Oh, this is what, you know, upper-class people do." No, you know, manners are an extension of wanting to create a pleasant environment for another person.
14:18 >> [snorts]
14:18 >> And I think we all know instinctively that relationships work better and are developed more strongly in a pleasant environment. And so, if we actually do value relationships, we will be courteous. So, someone who wishes to show me courtesy
14:54 won't use profanity when they're talking to me. Uh on the other hand, wanting to be courteous, if [snorts] someone is using profanity when they're talking to me, I don't stop them and say, "Please don't use profanity." Uh [snorts] for me, it's harsh, and it makes it more difficult for me to communicate with the other person. I know that's not the prevailing social
15:31 more these days. Uh I was I was raised in a different way. That's all I can tell you. Uh And and while I will acknowledge that this isn't the case today because the use of profanity is so broad. It always reser- redounds on me in a way that makes me think gosh you don't know a 'nother word or another way of saying that? You have to use profanity?
16:07 And and by the way, I'm not talking about when, you know, we hurt ourselves when we go, "Oh, you know, another word for shoot." Uh okay, some you know, sometimes that happens and and and and, you know, that that's understandable. Uh but um for most people in society today um profanity is a part of their vocabulary. And I I find that unfortunate. Uh I accept that that's the way society is.
16:43 I do my part to not use profanity as an example of how one can be more courteous. Uh I I would certainly, and I know this sounds chauvinistic, I would never use profanity in front of a woman. I think for a man to use profanity in front of a woman is it it's it's almost abusive of of her um because of the impact that that it can have. Now,
17:18 I I acknowledge for a lot of women the use of profanity is very common. And okay, you know, that's that's how it is. Um but um uh I I would just never do that. It feels far too discourteous uh for me to to use profanity in front of a woman. So, um other aspects of courtesy. So, not interrupting another person when
17:53 they're speaking, arriving on time, uh holding a door for someone, as I mentioned already, and um keeping my voice modulated properly, so that if for example if I'm in a restaurant, I'm not speaking so loudly that it's disturbing the people next to me. Uh I don't walk around um you know, on a cell phone um in a way that you know, I'm not
18:29 paying attention I might bump into somebody. Uh all of those are aspects of courtesy. Um when when I'm with another person, I generally put my cell phone away. Cuz I want to give them my attention, my full my full attention, hopefully. And that doesn't mean that sometimes my mind doesn't wander. Uh but but in general, I don't have my cell phone out when I'm when I'm with another person. Uh
19:04 because I want I want them to know that I want to be engaged with them. They're important to It's important to me the time we're spending together. And in while I'm not big on entitlement, I am very big on treating other people decently. And courtesy is a way to do that. And so, if if I'm with someone, for example, driving with someone in a car, they're entitled to my attention. Okay? So, that's courtesy. It's a uh more one-on-one interpersonal
19:43 uh value. Civility is more of a societal value. So, it's looking at the broader community and in essence saying, "How can I be a better participant in the larger community?" Okay? So, uh civility requires me
20:18 to stop behind limit lines when I'm driving. Even if
20:27 >> [laughter]
20:28 >> there is no one in the crosswalk. Even if there's not another car approaching the intersection. I I need to stop, make sure, you know, I'm not missing someone driving or walking or on a bicycle or whatever before I proceed. So, following traffic laws. It's using my turn indicator when I turn. So, people know what's going on, which is why turn indicators exist. Aside from the safety, they're a way of expressing civility
21:03 to another person. Uh civility is is um it's telling society that societal cohesion is important. So, um I was talking to a client a little bit earlier this afternoon. And she was telling me that about her children, um both of whom recently
21:39 completed college. Uh uh one she completed college uh I guess in May after 4 years. Another one, her her I guess her son doesn't really like school, so he kind of got through college in 3 years. Good for him. Wow. Right? But now they're both looking for jobs, and it's it's difficult for recent college graduates. And and so I offered to her to um meet with her children or her and and her children and show them how I use
22:14 LinkedIn to for business development and to and to build professional relationships. I said I'd be you know, be happy to do it. You know, as as you know, as as as kind of a a friend slash you know business relationship thing. And she said, "Well, I'd be happy to pay you." I said, "No, I Thank you, but uh it's not necessary. It's from my perspective, it's part of the social contract." And I've used that word a a couple of times in the last few weeks.
22:53 The whether we want to acknowledge it or not, there is a social contract between human beings. And it really comes down to I'm going to conduct my way in society. I'm going to I'm sorry. I'm going to conduct myself in society in such a way that I'm benefiting the community as much as possible and detracting from it as little as possible. That's
23:30 civility. Okay? So, for me to help her children potentially find a job that's part of the social contract between me who's older and [snorts] has benefited from the mentorship and help of people who were older than me when I was younger passing that along to the next generation. It's acknowledging that the communities in which I lived
24:06 did what they could to help me out. So, when I was a young man I I think this was this was I was in high school at the time. And uh my mother was working for a thrift and loan um at the time. And And once in a while I would go and visit her at her office. I I It was in downtown Santa Barbara. I liked to be around there. It was so beautiful. And And I would you know, once in a while I would drop by to say hello to my mom. How are you doing? Whatever. And this particular time
24:41 uh as I was leaving after visiting my mother the the the man who uh we didn't call them CEOs in those days. He was the president of this thrift and loan happened to see me walk by. I I had met him uh you know, occasionally. And and and he saw me and he said, "Oh, Kevin, hi. How are you doing?" And and uh b- because I think he was such an exemplary man, I'll I'll I'll give you his name. His name was Robert Svoboda. People called him Bob. I of
25:16 course did not. I called him Mr. Svoboda. And he invited me to come into his office and and sit down. Which I I I I was kind of blown away by that. He was from he First of all, he very successful man. Uh a very, from my perspective, cultured man, a very good man. And and if you were to talk to anyone who knew him, they would all I think agree with my assessment. And
25:51 you know, here I was, you know, a high school kid. This is a man with important things to do. Uh and he was taking the time to talk with me. How was school going? I told him a little bit. "Oh, that's that's very good." And he s- he said, "Have What have you thought about life after high school?" I said, "Well, uh you know, I know I'm going to go to college cuz basically my parents had said, 'Kevin, you're going to college.' That's how it was in those days.
26:28 And he said, "Oh, what do you think you're going to study?" And I said, "Honestly, I really don't know." He said, "Oh, well, um in what are you interested?" And I was a very, very big Disney fan as a teenager. I said, "Well, I don't know. I I really love animation. If you've seen any of the classic Disney animated films. They're so beautiful, so creative. And he said, "Well, that's a wonderful field." And we ended up talking about that for maybe, I don't know, 10, 15, 20, whatever it was.
27:03 He was very encouraging. That's that's civility, to take the time to have a meaningful interaction with a young man. I I mean, I know he knew that my parents were divorced. I I suspect he either knew or intuited that uh you know, as a young as a teenage boy living with his mother, I maybe was not getting as much male guidance as I wanted.
27:39 And he was willing to step in or step up, I guess we would say, and do a little bit, you know, to help me out. I've I've That interaction, by the way, happened half a century ago. And it's still meaningful to me today. And it's one of the reasons why I offered to help this client's children because I was helped by this conversation with Robert Svoboda. And if while I don't
28:15 account myself as good a man as he was, as successful a man as he was, uh I I I I hope that I can be as as civil a man as he was. And and sort of meet that obligation. You know, fulfill the social contract. So, how can we be civil?
28:50 Well, we can disagree without dehumanizing people. So, uh yesterday I spoke to my my long-standing good friend Todd. And uh gosh, we've known each other for a long of 30 plus years, I think at this point. Such [snorts] a wonderful man. We don't agree on politics. And one of the things I most love about Todd is we can talk about it without demeaning each other
29:27 without being aggressive. And and I think, you know, the interesting thing is what we found in in these discussions, he's always so gentlemanly when we have these discussions, is despite our political differences, there are lots of things on which we agree. This, you know, that that show us, you know, this is this is why we've been friends for over
30:03 three decades. And that the political differences are not nearly as important as understanding each other on a basic human level. And and in a way, for the for the first time, uh when we were talking yesterday, I realized, wow, you know, the fact that we disagree on politics, maybe it's almost a good thing because he can help me make decisions, for
30:39 example, about voting that otherwise might be very difficult for me, he can make those decisions easier for me. I know that sounds perhaps a bit bizarre. Uh but um I think it's it's it's good to be long-standing close friends with people with whom we have some some disagreements. So, you know, disagreeing without dehumanizing I think is very important. Um
31:14 following norms in a shared space. Right? So, um when I was I'm going back to my trip in Nevada City. Um I I I met a a fellow there um when I was in the hat store. I never wear hats on these shows, so you don't know I'm a hat aficionado, but if you could see right there, you would see my hat rack with all kinds of hats on it. And uh after talking with Todd, the owner of the store for the better part of an hour, this fellow Eric and I left the store at the same time, and Eric said, "Hey, I'm going to go get
31:49 some ice cream. Do you want to come with me?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah, absolutely." And um so, we uh you know, we we we went to uh this ice cream parlor um down the street. And uh we we were having such a good time. Uh we uh we were I guess I think we were laughing too loudly. Uh and um the lady sitting at the table next to ours, finally she turned to me and she said, "I want whatever you two are
32:25 eating." Right? Um and I realized, "Oh my gosh, we're we're we're being, you know, a little bit too loud." Um and and and and and good for this lady uh to point out to us in a very civil way that that we were of violating you know norms of not disturbing other people. So, that's another part. You know, listening before reacting or responding, avoiding needless hostility. Um all of these, you know,
33:00 driving you know in a obeying the laws, not you know blocking driveways or parking lot entrances, that sort of thing. And maintaining composure during conflict. All of these are civility because when we're out, you know, in the world if we for example respond in an explosive way to something it's not just impacting the other person and ourselves, it's
33:36 impacting all the people who are seeing it. Adults, even worse children, right? So, civility has impact beyond even if it's only two people involved, though just those two people. It is I've said this several times. It is observing the social contract. And I and it's unfortunate I think that people are
34:12 so surprised when I bring up this idea of a social contract. But it exists. It's it's there. And we would all be much better off if we acknowledged it its existence and agreed to its terms in essence. So, uh things like, you know, self-restraint and public conduct, being aware of social cohesion, all of these are
34:48 aspects of civility. So, I put together a little chart here um that kind of compares courtesy with civility. So, I'm going to give you some sort of counterpoint examples. So, courtesy is how do I treat you right now? And civility is more broadly, how do we live together? So, courtesy is personal manners and civility is social order.
35:24 Courtesy is interaction focused. Civility is society focused. Courtesy is politeness. Civility is res- respectful coexistence. Courtesy is small gestures and civility is broader uh broader cultural norms. And courtesy is often warm
36:00 whereas civility can be emotionally neutral. Right? There doesn't have to be any emotion in my stopping at a stop sign or behind a limit line to make sure that I'm not um potentially endangering a pedestrian. Right? So, think the question is, can we be courteous without being civil and vice versa? And I think we can. Right? So, um we can be pleasant when we're face-to-face with someone
36:35 >> [snorts]
36:35 >> and still be socially corrosive. So, we can be very polite when we're face-to-face with someone and we can be driving in a dangerous way. The The The flip side of that is we can be civil without being courteous. So, we can be very respectful of traffic laws and yet when we're dealing with a person face-to-face, we can be nasty to that person.
37:10 So, how do I sum this up? Uh A friend of mine who I is I think one of the wisest people I know said to me, "We should try to be decent." And I think decency infolds courtesy and civility in it. If we want to be decent and the reward for being decent is self-respect. If we want to be decent, we will be courteous to people in our
37:47 face-to-face interactions, but we will also be civil as we move about society because we recognize the social contract. So, those are my thoughts on courtesy and civility. I'm would be fascinated to hear your thoughts. If you look down below, you'll see in the show notes links to social media. I'd be interested to hear what you Do you agree that courtesy is personal, civility is
38:22 social. Do you agree that these are valuable traits for us to exhibit in society today? Or maybe share just some instance where maybe a stranger treated you courteously or you you were the recipient of an act of civility. I'd really love to hear about those. And I thank you very much for joining me today.
38:58 And uh I I hope we you'll become a a regular you know attendee at here at Jigger's Place, a regular visitor here at Jigger's Place. And that just leaves me to wish you a wonderful rest of the evening, a [snorts] wonderful weekend, a restorative weekend. And to sign off as I always do by saying Marie darling, you were the most beautifully courteous and civil person.
39:34 You are my belle. Courage at all times, my friends.