0:00 And where are you going? What do you want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemmel, and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and and probate administration uh from the standpoint primarily of uh professionals like myself, as you know, I do this for a living. Um, but also for those of you who you don't do this on a
0:38 regular basis, maybe you were made the executive of, you know, your parents will or something like that and now you're trying to navigate your way through this confusing and often aggravating process and and so now you'll have a source of information and be able to talk to your adviserss more cogently. So, uh, today I'm going to be talking about, uh, dealing with parents who are resistant to, uh, creating an estate
1:14 plan. So, in in my work, I was thinking about this earlier today. Uh, I kind of sometimes feel like I don't know the grim reaper or something because at the point where I'm asked to step in and administrate a probate, okay, it is much more likely to be one where the deedent has died in testate, meaning there's no trust, there's no will, there's been no estate planning done. Number one. And number two, often times
1:52 as a result of the lack of an estate plan, the heirs or the beneficiaries are now in disputes and so the court finally says to them, look, just bring in a professional and let's get moving with this. Uh but that typically takes at least nine months and sometimes a year or more of you know sort of not floating but bouncing around the court um while the judge you know let gives the heirs
2:29 time to figure it out on their own uh which doesn't seem to happen very often. So uh you know this is this is a real a real issue uh with realworld uh consequences for all the people involved. Um and and I will say um at the out outset because I don't think I have this um yeah I don't have this on the points that I'm going to be talking that I'm going to be going over today. The reality is for the vast majority of
3:07 people, maybe for everyone, the cost to die in test state is less than the cost, I'm sorry, is far greater than the cost of doing a proper estate plan. And when I say a proper estate plan, I don't mean going to a do-it-yourself service or, you know, going to, you know, Perplexity and saying, uh, you know, draft me a will. Okay. Um most of us do not have anything like the legal background and
3:44 financial sophistication that would enable us to use a large language model to draft a will for us and and know whether that will has been properly drafted. Okay. So a basic estate plan three four $5,000 something like that. the cost to administrate an estate is going to be multiples of that. Okay. The the the um what are called the statutory fees on a
4:23 uh on a uh I'm just I'm going to give you an actual example. Okay. So, the statutory fees on a $1.4 4 million estate. For the administrator, they're $27,000. And for the lawyer, they're $27,000 here in California. In other words, the statutory fees are $54,000. That doesn't include costs for filing the probate, which could be another several hundred or thousand dollars.
4:58 Okay? So you could easily pay $60,000 to administrate a $1.4 million estate when someone has died in test state as opposed to the cost of doing an estate plan which is probably going to be in the range of about $5,000. Now, it it'll depend on the assets and the family situation and a number of other issues, but there is virtually no chance that the costs to do an estate plan on a $1.4 million estate here in California are
5:34 going to come anywhere close to $50,000, let alone more than $50,000. Probably a fraction of that, 20% of that at the most. I would say okay based on my experience. So for financial reasons alone everyone should get an estate plan or everyone with any kind of appreciable assets. If you have a home, you have large um stock portfolio um and and uh you know uh other other
6:11 assets like that. So you need an estate plan. And let me add a as many of my guests have mentioned an estate plan is not just dealing with financial issues. So there are other documents in in a properly created estate plan to deal with your health, your well-being if you should, god forbid, become infirmed. um other to deal with other issues like um how end of life decisions are going to be made uh how you know what your
6:47 your burial or committal plans are going to be. So there's a number of other issues that get covered in an estate plan besides financial ones. Okay. So having said having said that, the reality is that aging parents oftentimes are nonetheless uh resistant um to doing an estate plan. I'm going to talk about several of those issues um and and offer some uh some thoughts on on on how they can be uh dealt with. So
7:25 first of all, let's let's try and understand why are they refusing help? Why why are they, you know, why do they not want to to deal with this? So um from the standpoint of adult children who may be urging them you know you may be urging your parents to create an estate plan. Resistance many times is about fear of losing control not you
8:00 know what we used to call oriness or stubbornness. I mean maybe your parents are stubborn but in this case beneath that oftentimes is a sense that I'm I'm I'm I'm losing control of my life. It's it's very similar to why um older people uh hang on to having a driver's license even if they've already stopped driving. So, there's someone in my family hasn't
8:35 driven for literally years, years and years, maybe 10 years at this point. Okay. Still keeps her driver's license and it's fine. Okay. She's told me flat out, not interested in driving anymore. Don't want to. Okay. Gave up her car a few years ago. Okay. But her drive her driver's license that's different, right? She could get what's called a California ID, which provides identification without the privilege of driving. But she wants a driver's
9:11 license. Okay? Because losing that driver's license or not having that driver's license would feel like I think she's losing control of her life. Okay? And and I think we should all be able to understand that. I don't think let's not be so callous as to think that, you know, somehow we're easily going to give up our our sense of freedom or our sense of control over our own lives when others, you know, will not. Um, and so if you're a child of a resistant
9:47 parent, um, pushing harder often creates even more distrust or creates distrust and makes the parent feel like they need to do things in secret. Okay? So, we need to help our parents hear the message that we're here to help them, make their life easier, and relieve them of burdens.
10:23 This is not about them losing control. Okay? In the case of um my relative that I just mentioned, uh you know, I now handle her not all but her most of her business affairs. And without getting into too much of the family dynamics, uh you know, I I just said, "Hey, if I can help you that I I want to do that. Yes, I do this for a living, but this isn't about me, you know, doing anything other than helping you out. and and and just know that if you do ask
11:01 me to take on these various, you know, duties or whatever you want to call them, that doesn't mean that you're out of the loop. Quite to the contrary. I'm going to treat this just as I would any other client where I'm going to report to you on a periodic basis. So, you're going to know what's happening. It's just you're not going to be bothered with actually doing it. And if something needs to be done, you can just call me up and say, Kevin, do this, okay? And I'll do it. Uh, and and the fact of the matter is I'm I'm happy to to do this for her. This is someone who has
11:37 throughout my life been a very important person to me, and I want to relieve her of uh burdens if I can. Um, but I don't want her uh losing control because it's still her life. Okay. And that's I think what we need to keep in in mind uh as as adult children or or adult relatives of somebody. This this is I'm not talking about my mother here just to specify. Um now from the standpoint of professional advisors
12:12 so um you know we can expect um resistance to come from kind of a similar place. Uh our our our you know clients may feel they're losing their identity. Okay. And and and that's a tough thing for any of us to face. So it's not it's not you know fear of cognitive decline although there may be some of that involved. So we have to be um I think open to the
12:50 same kind of language and explain to um you know an an older person um look we're here to support you. Okay? We're not exercising oversight on you. That's not what's going on here. Okay? We're here to help you to make your life easier. Okay? But it's still your life. Okay? And what what I do is take your decisions and make sure that those decisions are carried out and that
13:27 that hopefully will make it easier for you. Okay. So I think that both adult children and advisors often times underestimate how threatening the process feels and so you know in in their zeal to you know get it done. Okay, they overlook the emotional aspects of this and this is where candidly my background as a military chaplain I think helps a lot.
14:02 There's almost always an emotional component to these kinds of issues and we need to keep that in mind. Okay. Next, how how should we um approach the conversation? Right. So, I mean, do we just want to, you know, blurt it out? That that may not be, you know, such a good idea. Um, and so I've got a few tips here. I'm sorry. I'm I'm adjusting my notes so they're they're easier to see. One, there we go. Okay. Come on. There we go.
14:38 Okay. Um, so I I some suggestions on uh how to approach uh the conversation. So first of all um start early okay don't wait for things to hit a crisis point so that now there's there's tremendous urgency to get it done because uh the person you know the family member the parent may just not be ready to move that quickly and again going back to the first thought pushing them will only
15:14 make the situation worse. So, you know, start talking to your parents about it um early on long before there's any crisis need for it. Um next, ask them questions instead of proposing solutions. So, you know, a question would be what what worries you the most about what will happen after, you know, god forbid, may it be a long time from now, you pass away?
15:50 Um, what do you want to happen when you're, you know, unfortunately no longer with us? How how do you want your life to be as you transition from where you are now to maybe a place where we all this happens to all of us things are more difficult for us to accomplish right so ask questions that are empathetic okay but gives them an opportunity to
16:26 think about these issues without a solution staring them in the face. Okay? Give them some time to become comfortable, if they haven't already, with their own mortality. We all have to do this. I I know I went through that process myself. Uh when I was younger, the thought of of death on a certain level was was pretty frightening to me. Um, you know, I I um I wasn't married yet. Um, but I knew I wanted to get married. I wanted to have
17:02 children. And the and the thought that I would die before I got to do do that and, um, you know, was was was very disturbing to me. Uh, and so, um, it's it's not any less so for someone who's who's not young. and and in fact the you know being closer to that uh eventuality uh could could be worse. Okay, unless there's been a working through. So um position yourself
17:37 as a backup, not as a decision maker like I did with with my relative. I I'm I'm just here to help you. if there's things that I can do to take the burden off of you, that's what I'm that's what I'm here for if if you want it. Okay? But, um, I'm not the one who am going to be making decisions about your life. Unless you want me to. If if there's something you just you just don't want to have to deal with it and you say, "Kevin, you decide, fine. But I'm only doing that because I
18:12 want to help you. I want to be a backup to you." So for adult children that I think is the best way uh to approach this issue uh for for professional uh advisors. So we want to reframe the engagement around preserving their independence and choice. Right? We're here to serve you to make sure that what you want to happen will happen or at least make give it the best shot at
18:48 happening. Okay? Uh you know that's our job to see to it that your wishes are fulfilled. Okay? And and again to preserve your independence, right? So again estate planning is more than just what happens with my money after I die. It's what happens in my life as maybe I start losing some of my abilities, right? Am I going to move to a um congregate care facility? Am I going to move to a retirement community? Uh all
19:25 of these are questions that we all are going to need to answer at some point in our life. And the sooner we think about these things, ask the questions that need to be asked, get the advice we need to have because we're most of us are just not experts in all this stuff, the better are the chances that we'll be be able to preserve uh our independence or at least more of our independence and choice. So we as as professionals we can use um scenarios of
20:00 what could be okay rather than using sort of present-day criticism. Why don't you have a will? Why don't you have a trust? Why don't you have an estate plan? Well, the answer to that is because I don't I haven't done it. I'm afraid of doing whatever. There's no there's no point dwelling on that. So, uh, you know, what do you want your retirement to look like? If you're planning to retire, what do you want the latter part of your life to be like? How do you want to engage with your children, your business associates or
20:35 former business associates? H how do you want all that to look? I'm here to help you um make that happen as much as possible. Okay. So as a as a professional advisor, we can serve as a neutral third party between the client, the aging individual and the client's children. Okay? So that um that if if there has been some conflict
21:10 we you know we can you know arbitrate between the them and hopefully lower the temperature and make some good progress. Okay. All right. Let's uh let's take a quick break. We'll be back for more. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what
21:45 matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step. Magnum Properties, Inc. turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. Okay. So, what are some warning signs then that legal risk is is increasing, right?
22:22 that you're getting into crisis time uh and and maybe don't have uh the luxury of leisure with which to deal with this uh this situation. So for adult children, um if you see bills piling up, if you start to hear about, you know, strange uses of money or new helpers handling money. So I have a very longstanding friend uh whose whose father who he's
22:59 deceased now, but at the time he was alive. uh and uh he it got to the point where he could no longer live in his house alone. And so first they got someone to live in the house with him and then it got to the point where he just couldn't live in the house. He had to go live in more of a retirement home. And um my friend started hearing from his father about how his caregiver was uh handling certain aspects of his finances. And you know, good for my friend, he
23:37 looked into this pretty quickly and found that the caregiver was stealing money from his father. And if he had let it gone unchecked, uh his his father could have lost uh much much more than than he ended up that ended up doing so, right? So, you know, even if our parents don't have an estate plan, uh you know, we we have to keep our our radar up, keep our our Spidey sense, right? you know, Spider-Man um about these kinds of
24:13 issues. Um because at some point it's it's not just, you know, that the estate will be um delete um the will be um the money will be lost from the estate. It's that you know your parent will not be able to afford to live. Okay. So if there's sudden secrecy or anger when finances or health are mentioned again that may mean that there's some kind
24:48 something something going on um that that puts your your parent uh at risk. There could be some kind of elder abuse going on. We tend to think of elder abuse as as being physical abuse of of the person, but that is not the case. Financial abuse is as uh a as real and perhaps more frequent than than physical abuse. Okay. And if there's if there has been an estate plan created, but now your parent is reluctant to sign the
25:24 documents or maybe they they won't engage in updating the documents. So that too can be a warning sign that there's increased legal risk uh afloat and then and then you know as adult children what do you do um from a professional's perspective? So um we need to be looking for fact patterns that uh suggest undue influence or financial exploitation. Okay. Again this is a form of elder
25:59 abuse. And uh you know one of the questions um we we should be you know asking is how are you currently handling your finances? Oh, uh, you know, I I write all the checks myself and and I sign them all and I put them in the envelopes or, you know, whatever. Okay, sounds fine. Uh, oh, you know, my caregiver is a signer on my checking account. What? Who's your caregiver? Oh,
26:34 well, you know, she she comes in each day for a few hours and takes care of things. Really? How often do you see your bank statement? Oh, you know, she takes care of that. Now, by the way, there may be nothing wrong. The caregiver could be absolutely honest, but verify, right? Make sure that everything is being done correctly on the up and up, as we say. Okay. Um if the potential client or the client is exhibiting some cognitive cognit
27:09 cognitive um uh lapses um so you know they may not meet the incapacity standards um but they you know may not be 100% there. So again legal risk is increasing. Okay. Both the chances that they'll make a mistake or they'll forget something and that they they're in a position to be uh you know to be exploited. Um finally um
27:45 family dynamics can increase legal risk. Um can increase the risk of litigation. It can create it can increase the risk that if a conserv a conservatorship uh has to be created that that disputes will rise arise out of that conservatorship and so watch the family dynamics as well. How are things going with your children? Have you seen them recently? You know how how are you know how are their lives going? You know, etc., etc. How are things going with your spouse?
28:20 Right? Those are the kinds of questions we want to ask uh potential clients. Okay. So, what tools can we use um to add protection without taking over? So, for adult children, uh limited powers of attorney can help without removing complete control. Okay. So, you know, perhaps uh someone can, you know, an adult child can be given a limited power of attorney
28:57 to handle everyday bill paying. Okay? But that power of attorney will not allow the adult child to make major financial decisions. Maybe that's a good way to get started. Okay? So the parent can get used to the idea of letting someone else help them without really losing any control. Okay? So you know routine matters are routine matters. You you know you can report to them monthly or whatever and they're fine with that. So that's one tool. Another tool is to
29:32 set up a trust um where the trust and the terms of the trust can act as guard rails rather than restraints. Okay. So again in a trust uh assuming that maybe as an adult child you're going to be the trustee rather than the grantor your parent being the trustee. So the trust language can be written in on a narrower basis so that your parent at least for you know at the initial stages can feel like they're retaining control which
30:07 they are. Um and and yet you have enough uh authority within the terms of the trust to to uh fulfill whatever duties you have with respect to helping your parent out. Okay. And then the other aspect of this is so the other aspect of this is that make sure if you're going to use any of these
30:42 tools that siblings roles are clear in order to reduce conflict between siblings and prevent accusations later on on the part of siblings or even your parents that somehow you know the situ you you took advantage of the situation. Okay. So talk all of these things through prior to taking any action. Okay. give people an opportunity to voice their concerns uh and and and you know have and be part
31:19 of putting together a plan that everybody can basically support. Okay. So from the standpoint of professional advisors who may be called upon to actually enact some of these tools like a limited power of attorney or a trust, right? So they can draft uh narrowly tailored documents with limited authorities that will withstand court scrutiny were there to be a dispute in the future and you know one of the part
31:55 interested parties decides to drag this whole thing into court. Okay. So um they can professionals because they do this all the time. So they can anticipate how documents will be reviewed will be not reviewed will be viewed in hindsight if you know litigation results. Okay. So they should be able to look at it now in the present but also give some sense as to how the perceptions of these documents will age
32:31 and change over time. That's that's part of their job. And it's also part of their job to periodically determine whether such documents need to be revised. Okay? And explain that that's part of the process. So whatever we're starting with now is not forever in all times. So it could be that after working under the documents for a year that you know you'll realize hey these are uh these are too broad and we
33:06 need to narrow them further. Or maybe they find out no they they're too narrow. the you know my my child or you know in a power of attorney or as a trustee needs needs more authority to really be able to help me out. Okay. So the professionals can make that call about balancing uh flexibility um and and and accomplishing the goals of the estate plan um with the least restrictive intent. Okay? So to meet the
33:44 ability of everybody to best uh handle the situation as it exists. Okay? So that that's that's very important. Okay, let's take another break. Be right back. Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration. Featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Bralet, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate
34:20 professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time searching. Okay. So now let's look at um what do you do if crisis has arrived and no estate plan is in place and some
34:58 kind of action needs to be taken in order to make sure that the situation does not spiral completely out of control. So one option may be looking at a limited conservatorship. Okay. Now there are basically two aspects if you will or two types of conservatorships. There's a conservatorship of the person and there's a conservatorship of the estate. So a conservatorship of the person is where the person's personal
35:34 needs, their health, their well-being, their personal well-being um is handled by a conservator. Conservatorship of the estate covers their financial well-being. Now there are conservators who do both. Okay? Uh but what I found is unless you're talking about a a large organization that's acting as a conservator. So when I had my real estate company before I joined the Navy,
36:09 Jewish Family Services here in Los Angeles had a conservatorship program and it it was a whole team of people uh to handle both conservatorships of the person and of the estate. Now even with that when they needed specialized advant or specialized uh when when they had special uh issues that with which they needed to deal they called in specialists and so I I often times was called in when there were real estate issues.
36:44 Uh so for example, if they had a property that need to be managed, my my firm managed that property on behalf of the conservator when there was consulting on what to do with with real estate, they would call me in and I might do an appraisal or I might do a consultation or whatever to help them make a better decision. Okay. So even for and and and and again this is what they I I don't recall how many people were on the staff but it was it was quite a number of people. Okay. Outside of that for an individual to have a high
37:20 level of of competence in both those categories the person and the estate I I I would say is unusual. Okay. Now I know here in California where we have to be licensed to act as conservators at least as individuals. So a lot of the people who get a professional fiduciaries license actually come out of the health care arena. They have little if any experience in acting as what what might be kind of a business manager
37:57 uh for other people. And so they're very qualified to be a conservator of the person, but they're not qualified to be a conservator of the estate. And that would be the opposite of me. So, I'm qualified to be the conservator of an estate, but I do not have the knowledge, skills, or experience to be a conservator of the person. And so, when presented with a conservatorship uh situation, I may always make that clear up front
38:32 and then if there is a way I can help with my background, I will. But I would never become the conservator of a person where I would be both the conservator of the person and the estate because I could not do the other half. I could not do the conservator of the person half. Okay? So conservatorships also don't need to be forever. So they can be established and they can be disestablished. Okay? So they can be in other words temporary. So it's not a you
39:10 know lose all rights or nothing alternative. Okay. It can be a conservatorship over just some aspects of of the person or estate or it could be a broader one. It depends on the situation. It can be a temporary conservatorship. It can be a permanent conservatorship. Although technically there's really no such thing literally as a permanent conservatorship, a conservatorship here, especially here in California, can only last as long as the person needs to be conserved. Okay? So,
39:45 uh that's just, you know, something to keep in mind. So, uh as I was saying, it can be focused on one issue like bill paying or medical consent. Okay. Um, and it's often used as kind of the the choice of last resort when um someone has a parent who just won't accept help but is in real danger. Okay? Maybe they've they've been uh financially abused several times and if it happens again, they're really going to be in
40:22 deep deep financial problems. And so then you know an adult child may have to file for an involuntary conservatorship. Okay. Now by the and by the way I should mention that conservatorships can be voluntary or involuntary. So an individual can place himself voluntarily under a conservatorship. Okay. He can in essence petition the court to do that. Uh other other times it has to it can it would have to be done involuntarily. Obviously that's more difficult to accomplish. Okay. From a professional advisor
40:58 standpoint with respect to limited conservatorships. So, um, courts, um, increasingly, um, want to see evidence that this type of alternative was tried first before they will consider ordering a full conservatorship, right? And in the um uh uh there's an organization called PAC uh the professional fiduciary association of California. So in their code of ethics
41:35 okay it requires people who belong to that organization to not uh conserve more issues than need to be conserved. Okay. and and that's I think that's an absolute best practice and courts I think should be skeptical about placing someone under a full conservatorship when in in a situation where a more limited one hasn't been tried. Now, we can
42:10 certainly come up with circumstances where the first conservatorship needs to be a full conservatorship, but generally speaking, that won't be the case. And especially if we're proactive in working with our our parents or as advisors, with our clients to avoid, you know, absolute crisis, okay, a limited conservatorship should be tried first. So uh you know in these cases precision matters right if a person
42:45 um is if an over broad conservatorship is proposed from the gets go from the get-go uh that can cause a great deal of skepticism resistance fear which can delay the process more and end up causing more harm. So even if you you may think that a full conservatorship is the right solution, it's probably not best to initiate the discussion on that basis rather initiate
43:21 it on a limited basis to help the person get used to the idea. So, I was helping out uh a a a client of my sister. My older sister is a a therapist uh who was having a number of difficulties. And one of the things we discussed was putting her her actually her voluntarily going under a conservatorship. And I and I explained to her that first of all, if it was something that I was going to handle uh
43:57 or or a role I was going to fill for her, um it it would have to be limited in scope. I wouldn't take on a full conservatorship because for for as I mentioned a moment ago, I don't do conservatorships of the person and I wasn't in in her case, I wasn't sure that that was necessary. She was under a therapist care etc. But I said even then um this wasn't something that I was prepared to to say ha has to be in in essence permanent. It would be a temporary measure uh to help her get through a difficult period in her life
44:35 and after that presumably the conservatorship would be dissolved and she would go back to handling things herself. Now, um, you know, I'm not sure honestly that that would ever happen, that she would be able to take things on. Um, but I wouldn't go into a situation saying, uh, no, once we establish this, that's it. It's done. I I don't think that's a wise thing to say. And it's it's not it's not provable. We can't predict the future that certain certain with that kind of certainty. Okay. Um and and so again as
45:13 professional advisors we need to be empathetic. We need to consider the emotional dimension of these issues uh as we deal with our clients. Okay. So finally um we need to look at uh dealing with resistant parents as working to bridge between their autonomy on the one hand and their safety on the other. That's the crux of the issue. Whatever we may
45:49 stand to get out of it by, for example, maintaining the value of their estate is secondary to seeing to it that they are able to live their life at as much along the along the lines of how they want to live it as as anything. and that their safety is uppermost in our minds. Their physical safety, their emotional and spiritual safety, their financial safety, those should be the number one issues. So, uh for um adult children,
46:27 okay, um we want our parents to stay in charge as long as they're doing so can be done safely. So, uh, it may be that as long as there are trusted people assisting them, they can stay in charge and we've bridged that gap between autonomy and safety uh, very easily. Okay, we want to work to avoid court involvement in this, avoid disputes. Once these matters get into court, number one, they almost always become
47:03 more difficult to solve because the judge is going to want to make sure he thoroughly understands what's at stake before making some kind of decision. And that will rarely happen in one or two hearings. Okay? It's going to mean there's going to be lengthy proceedings before the judge makes a decision. And that's prudent on the part of the judge. That's that's what judges are there to do. Also, the reality is litigation is
47:38 expensive. Okay? the the court costs may not be tremendously expensive, but if there's more than one lawyer involved. So, you know, two lawyers being in court at the same time can easily cost $1 to $2,000 an hour depending on what they charge. So you could charge four$4 to $500 an hour is probably the base of what you will see a lawyer charge in this area here in California. I'm talking now in other states the the fees are not that
48:13 high. Uh so if you've got two lawyers in court at kind of the lower end of this of of the fee scale, $500 times two, that's $1,000 an hour that's being spent for those lawyers to be in court. Okay, that's a lot of money. It can very quickly defay an estate or cost you as adult children um a lot of money to resolve issues. So, you want to avoid court if you can. Okay? And um you you want to couch what you're
48:49 doing for your parents just that way. We we need to find a way to keep you safe while maintaining your autonomy or at least as much of it as possible. That's what this is about. Okay. Now, for professional advisors, okay, we we want to align whatever solution we recommend as being the least restrictive. Number one. Number two, we want we want to recommend solutions that
49:24 are going to prevent as well as possible disputes and keep everyone out of court. Okay. Now, some of you listening to this may say, "Well, that's not what lawyers do." Actually, in my experience, lawyers would rather stay out of court, especially lawyers in this arena. Uh going to court is a part of a lawyer's job. Um, but it's usually the part they like the least because they get as frustrated with the system as as we non- lawyers do. Okay? They would
50:01 rather spend their time and charge their fees for making progress than showing up at a hearing only to have it continued, you know, for the eenth time without anything of value really being accomplished. Okay, so that th those number that's kind of number one. Number two, they we want to as as professionals, we want to make sure there's clear documentation with with defined support roles. Now in in my situation, I'm not drawing up the
50:37 documents, but I want to make sure that my role is clearly defined and that I have the guard rails I think are appropriate and at the same time I have enough authority to be able to fulfill my obligation. Right? And so that's how a non-awyer for example might get involved in this part of the process. And finally, as professionals, we can be most effective in dealing with these issues before
51:14 cognitive decline sets in. Okay? And that's something we really need to keep in mind. We may need to, you know, badger our clients a little bit. Hey, I really think you need to get this done. You need to think about these issues. We need to talk about them. We need to get your children involved. We need to get your spouse involved. Whatever it is that needs to be done, we need to be the one encouraging them. And it may take a lot of encouragement in order to get them to finally take care of it. Okay. So, uh, real real quickly the the the
51:51 six thoughts I have on on dealing with resistive parents. First of all, understand why aging parents refuse help or resist help. Two, um, think about how you're going to approach the conversation. Make sure it's with empathy uppermost in your mind. Number three, keep keep aware of the warning signs that legal risk is increasing. Four, look at tools that will add protection without taking over. And number five, one strategic option is a
52:28 limited conservatorship. Okay? Where uh it's limited in in in scope, it's limited in time, it's voluntary versus involuntary. All of these are possible ways of limiting a conservatorship. And finally, keep uppermost in your mind and especially as you talk to an aging relative that we're looking to maintain their safety and their autonomy and we're looking for the balance or the solution that will allow that to be accomplished.
53:04 So, uh, thank you very much for joining me today. If you have questions, comments, uh, criticisms, links to, uh, my social media will be in the show notes after the, uh, after the, uh, episode posts on YouTube. Feel free to post them there. If you have questions of a more personal nature, my email address is there as well. You can email me, keeping in mind, I will address the question if it's within my area of expertise. If not, I'll recommend that you contact a lawyer, accountant, or whatever type of professional you need. Tomorrow at 10:00
53:42 a.m. Pacific time is my show, uh, Business Lessons from the Military. On Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific is my show uh, People Making Money. And every other Thursday at 5:00 p. p.m. Pacific time is my show Jiggers's Place. meet me there for a cocktail and a smoo. If you're watching this on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, um, please, if you like the show, um, drop drop a positive comment. I would really appreciate that. Um, and that will help, uh, other people potentially
54:18 find this as a resource to help them with these kinds of issues. So, thanks again for joining me today. I wish you a wonderful rest of the day and signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.