0:02 Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want? [Music] Hello and welcome to People Making Money. I'm your host, Kevin Bemmel, and I'm here uh every Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about job hunting, starting and running a business, and building wealth, the whole financial side of life. And so today my
0:37 topic is invisible financial drains. Uh yes, this is a subject that I dealt with quite frequently both in my own life and when I was a chaplain in the Navy talking to other sailors and marines. So, it's it's it's a trap that is so easy uh to fall into because um we want I think most of us want to um be
1:15 nice, kind, um generous people. We want to help out pe the people about whom we have or for whom we have affection that we we care about and and as a result we may you know we offer financial large s to the oftenimes to a greater extent than what is financially healthy for us and oftentimes to the detriment of the person receiving the the help. And so
1:52 today's show is really both about finances, but it's also about relationships and what it truly means to help someone and to be kind to someone. So we we tend to to equate being kind with being nice. They are not the same thing. Sometimes the kindest thing we can do is something that the other person might not interpret as being particularly nice. Uh but it it is the best thing for them. And so uh kindness
2:31 is not necessarily in the in the eye of the recipient. I think a a more objective standard is necessary to both protect yourself and to do to really help the other person out. So, I have a few thoughts on this topic about invisible financial drains and and I'm I'm going to talk about them uh give you some examples of uh where this has happened in my life or where
3:06 I've seen it happen in other circumstances. And perhaps some of this will resonate with you. uh and and if it does um you know my my hope is of course that it helps you live a better life and be a better be a better family member and friend uh bo both of those. So um first of all I want to talk about the cost of lending to loved ones. So our our family members who are presumably our loved ones, okay, not
3:42 always, I I acknowledge, but you know, most of the time hopefully, uh, you know, they have a way of putting emotional pressure on us that makes us feel compelled to do something even when we know it's maybe not what we should be doing. It's certainly not in our own best interest and even and may not even be in uh you know the family members the loved ones best interest.
4:18 So if a family member or a friend um you know asks for money um out of a sense of duty to family or out of a sense of friendship uh you know many times we feel that we we we cannot say no. It feels cruel. um and even though it stretches or breaks our own budget, we go ahead and lend the money. And I I think that um what we really need to
4:53 look at in a situation where a family member or a friend is asking for money is are we actually helping or are we enabling the person's uh continued you know bad behavior sounds very porative but perhaps you know irresponsible behavior. So, uh, you know, growing up, uh, you know, as a I'm really not growing up. I was already an adult, but as as a young
5:28 adult, right? I started my first business when I was uh, 26 in 1986. And it was a struggle, as anyone who started a business knows, it's it's a struggle to start a business. And but the one thing I was not going to do was ask my parents for money. Um, candidly, I you know, I don't I don't think my dad had the capacity to help me out in any significant way, nor did my mom really. Um but because I
6:05 wanted independence and starting a business was a way of achieving not only independence from my family but also from employers, right? Turning around and borrowing money from my family members seemed like counter to that goal. So, it always annoyed me, frankly, uh when one of my siblings uh would get money from my mom and on a recurring basis and I would say to my mom, "You're not really helping.
6:41 All you're doing is putting her in a situation where she doesn't have to learn to take care of herself." Uh and and the reality is that went on for decades now. She would ask me for help sometimes and I would give her a job so she could earn money. Um that's different than uh you know than just handing somebody money. Uh but um I think that
7:19 to it's it's to for a family member especially a parent to be giving money to an adult child. Um it it can be uh prolonging the time when the child learns to stand on his own feet and that's not good for the long-term maturity, spiritual, emotional health of of the individual financial well-being of of of the of the child. Uh it's it's really unfortunate. I I I know of one case where uh a woman is in her 60s.
7:57 She's never really held a job and she basically still lives off off of money that her mother gets, right? She never learned to take care of herself financially and and as a result, she's caused uh significant problems. Uh I I don't think her mother would say so because, you know, her mother is just not that way. Um, but as a result of her dependence on her mother's financial well-being, she's
8:32 done a number of things that are of questionable uh ethics, shall we say, on her mother's behalf. Okay? None of this is good on any level. Okay? It it's just people need to learn to take care of themselves financially and they can't do that if especially a parent is helping them out. Okay. Now, a little bit different between siblings. Okay. Siblings do not typically uh
9:08 support each other. It's not a continuation of a parent child relationship. Nonetheless, you know, it can it can still be problematic, right? And so the the real issue in lending money to a loved one, especially a family member, is am I really helping or am I actually harming this person by lending them money? That's a completely separate issue from how much money they
9:43 need for example. So if a family member asks you for you know a large sum of money that you just cannot afford obviously the answer is no right the financial the size of the of the request is is the relevant factor and the answer is no. Right? Somebody comes in you and says I want to borrow a million dollars. Okay. Most of us are going to say no. Um, no, not going to can't do that. Not going to do it, you know. Um, but if somebody comes to us and says, "I need $100." Okay, probably most of us, we
10:18 could lend them that money or give them that money, but are we really helping them? Okay. Now, it's it's one thing if we're giving them a gift, it's their birthday. Okay, maybe we normally, you know, buy them a gift for $50 or $60. they're they're struggling a little bit financially, so we give them a cash gift. Maybe it's a little bit larger. Okay, maybe not so bad. Okay, but lending money to loved ones to help them live, for example, very problematic. Okay, especially if the person is not
10:53 looking for a job, um, you know, making no effort to support himself, right? So I know for me I always made um typically I didn't lend money. I always made the giving of money to uh you know to a sibling contingent on them working for me. Now as someone who has with except for my time in the Navy had my own business so I could put them to work. Um so there's a big benefit there. Um, but even if you don't have your own business, you know, the person can run
11:28 errands for you. Uh, they can walk your dog, maybe take care of your children, right? There's lots of um um, you know, there's lots of ways for them to earn money rather than you just giving it to them. Okay? And and by the way, you can you can get a sense of whether you're really helping them by their response to the proposition. Well, I don't think it's right for me to give you money, but I'd be I'd be willing to talk to you about you earning the money.
12:04 Maybe you can uh you know, do some repairs around the house or, you know, X Y or Z. Um if No, I'm not going to do that. Okay. Well, now now you're probably in the realm of enabling them rather than uh rather than actually helping them, right? So, these are the kinds of issues that I think um need to be examined so that lending money to family members uh doesn't become an invisible financial drain. When you
12:39 think about it, if you're lending a family member $50 a week over a year's time, okay, that's $2,500. That's that's a significant amount of money. It's actually $2,600. Okay, 52 weeks a year, but round numbers, $2,500. Okay, that's not insignificant. $100 a week, over $5,000. Okay. And it may not seem like it because it's going out in small amounts, but at the end of the year, it's like where did where did this money go? Right? So, I think that
13:16 anytime you're looking at lending money or giving money to a loved one, it needs to be very, very carefully considered. Okay. I would add if it's truly going to be a loan and I know my policy is unless I'm making some kind of investment with a friend where it's it's a bonafide investment. Okay, if I'm going to if a friend needs some assistance, okay, I give them the money without an
13:51 expectation of it being paid back. And um I'll I'll talk about that a little bit more. I'll talk about that in a little while, I should say. But um because I don't want to create a problem w with there being an expectation of money being repaid. Okay. If I can afford the money, if I can afford to, you know, lend them the money, then presumably I can also afford to not have the money paid back. If I can't afford to have the money paid back, okay? If I if if I'm ever going to get to a situation where I'm gonna need
14:27 the money back, that's a sign to me that I probably shouldn't be giving them that money, right? Because am I really going to press the person to get the money back? The answer for me is no. Okay? So, this gets into the realm of of uh friend and family dynamics. Okay. So, um financial transactions between friends and family members and and ourselves, they they change interpersonal relationships.
15:03 So, they introduce power dynamics potentially. They introduce a stress to the relationship. Um even small loans can create these dynamics and we may not realize they're going on. How even the other person may have come to us for help and we were you know happy to help them out and we not we may not realize that they've now changed their perspective of us. So now they look at us as someone to whom they owe money instead of just a
15:39 friend or a sibling or whatever. Okay. So I know for myself and some of you know that I've been going through a divorce for the last several years. Um there was a point at which uh you know I had I had to borrow money and I talked to a couple of friends about it that I thought had the capacity to do so whose lives I wouldn't impair by the at least you know if by making the request and and and if they felt they were able to do it it wouldn't have a you know a negative impact on their
16:16 life. Okay. And I but I was also very clear. This is this is a loan. I'm going to sign a note, a written paper that says I owe you this money. Okay. Now, there's a couple reasons why I wanted to do that. One is I wanted to make sure that they knew that I'm I'm obligated to pay it back and and that this stood as an a bonafide business transaction between us. Business in the sense personal business. That's number one. Number two, uh, look, I'm not a young man anymore, okay? Turned 65 last month.
16:51 Um, it's possible, um, that before I could pay the money back, god forbid, I would, you know, die. And then what would they do? How would they how would they get paid with no documentation of the loan? as someone who administrates probates and and and trusts it for for a debtor to collect when somebody has died, they need to have some evidence of the debt, right? And so I just wanted to, you know, I wanted to make sure that they were protected. You know, they were doing me a favor um and I wanted to make sure that, you know,
17:26 they were protected. So I made sure that that there were you know written notes um what what are called note is you know a loan the paperwork for a loan. I made sure I signed you know notes that that I that I gave them so that you know in the in this unfortunate circumstance they could get paid back right and and um look I felt in in these cases um they knew what I was going through. Um I they were happy to help. Um I felt that they were very very generous and I think in a
18:02 way it kind of helped our friendship that you know they would have the trust in me to lend me money. Right. So um I don't I I would say it did change the relationship but in this case it changed the relationship to the positive. Um but and I've been very upfront with them. I've kept them advised about the state of my finances whenever they ask. I give them as much information as I can. Uh and um and so, you know, because we did discuss upfront, you know, what kind of
18:38 impact might this have on our relationship, right? And so I think that anytime you're going to lend or give money to a loved one, a friend or a family member, those issues need to be be discussed first so that a a determination can may be be made as to whether it is even a good idea to think about, you know, lending money uh before you get to how much and all of that. Okay. So uh you know not unlike the helping and
19:14 enabling issue right one of the things one of the issues I I would recommend you discuss is or not issues you discuss but that you take a look at is are are is a is a relationship of uh dependence being created or one of mutual support. Right? So for the two friends who lent me money, we we have relationships of mutual support. They they were u relationships of mutual emotional support um that had you know
19:51 been years long in some caa in one case decades long. Okay. Um, and in one case I I had, you know, helped a friend out financially before and and so he may have looked at it at this as an opportunity to sort of return the favor. But we had we we we're used to relying on each other for mutual support sort of broadly written. Okay. as as opposed to being dependent. And we're both familiar with uh you know people who seek to be dependent on us who should not be. Okay.
20:27 And and the other friend um you know we had you know that was a him lending me money that was a a new aspect of our relationship and like I said it's I think it's made in some ways the relationship stronger. we we we know just how how much we can rely on the other person. Okay. But relationships of dependence can be created as well, right? So, you know, in in my younger days, right, I I dated women and sometimes, you know, they would lose a job and I would feel compelled to, you
21:04 know, make their car payment or pay their electric bill or whatever. Um, and in one case I was paying a lot of her bills and she was not getting another job, right? And I realized I was creating uh a dependency on her part that was not good for her, right? So, you know, we finally had to sit down and talk about it and, you know, candidly that that was the beginning of the end of of the relationship, right? So, uh, you know, her her perspective was, "Well, you're my boyfriend, so you're obligated to do
21:39 this." Said, "Well, okay. I mean, it's true. I am your boyfriend. Um, but I'm not your husband, you know. Um, and I don't think I'm obliged to support two households. Um, and um, I didn't think it was wise, you know, to cohabitate." and uh and and that that sort of left no no place to go since she didn't event any interest in you know really looking for another job. Um the way I resolved it was I found a job for her basically.
22:17 Um and she went to work for someone that I was doing some work for. Um and I think the relationship broke up. I I think they they they started having an affair. Okay, whatever. uh we weren't married so uh you know that that that was just I guess you know whatever. So uh anyway um it it's it's a it's a it's a judgment call whether uh lending or giving someone money is creating uh a pattern of of dependency or of mutual support. Okay. Um, but it is something
22:53 that needs to be examined seriously. Uh, and and you may you may not know the first time they make a request and you give them money. Okay? You may see, oh, they keep coming back, you know, and every time it's a little bit more than the time before. That looks like a dependency relationship, not a relationship of mutual support. Okay, let's take a break. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties
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24:06 Oh, so this is People Making Money and I'm your I'm the host Kevin Bemel. We're talking about invisible financial drains. And these often come down to to loans or gifts or favors that we do for friends and and loved ones, family members. and talking about this both from the financial sense but also from the relationship from the perspective of relationships because really the two are
24:41 inseparable in a in a situation where you're dealing with family and friends. So, uh I've talked about um the the the hidden cost of lending to loved ones. I've talked about how it changes uh relation or can change relationship dynamics. Now um one of the most sort of insidious ways that this happens is when um well there there's sort of there's sort of two insidious ways it happens.
25:17 Uh one is in in in many ways the other person's responsibility. The other is our own. So, um, people will often times, um, just ask for a small favor. This, this could be a work colleague and and you, you know, you go out to lunch with the work colleague, um, on a, you know, regular basis and it always seems like they they don't they forgot their wallet. Uh, oh gosh, I, you know, I I don't have any cash. Would you mind picking up the tab? That kind of thing, right? And so it's a it's a frequent
25:52 series of small favors and they accumulate until they become a significant financial drain. Okay. The flip side of that is when and and this is something I I did when I was a younger man is I would pick up the check. I would just volunteer to pick up the check. Even if it was several people, you know, the the waitress would bring the tab and I'd say, "Oh, I've got this." Right? And on my credit card it goes. I would do that all the time. And it was it became a huge financial drain.
26:28 But my ego, frankly, liked the boost that I the sort of dopamine hit, if you will, that I got from being able to pick up the check. Okay? even though I really couldn't afford to do it a lot of the times and so, you know, I was running up credit card bills and struggling to pay them. So, this sort of, you know, accumulation of so-called small favors, small favors we do because other people ask us or we do, you know, again, to boost our own egos. Um, they they can be a a problem
27:04 and they're a real financial drain, right? So, uh I I you know I was doing I was trying out some online dating the last several weeks and uh one particular woman we you know exchanged messages for for a while and then sort of out of the blue she says she sends me a message. She says you know uh I have to go to a wedding next week. I have a dress in my shopping cart. Will you pay for it? thinking to myself, "What?" Right? Uh, and I I sent her a
27:43 message back. I said, "No, I won't." She was, and she got very upset. She said, "But you love me." I'm like, "I never said that." I said, "You know, the honest the honest answer was, uh, I told you I was interested in getting to know you." That is hardly an expression of love. But the relevance to this show is that right away, you know, alarm bells went off for me. Oh, just please do me this favor because I've got this special event, right? And then what comes after
28:19 that and after that and after that? It's just right. It's it's very insidious. And by the way, I I think she was, you know, playing on a male the male tendency to, you know, want to give gifts to women. It, you know, it if from a male perspective, it makes it like, see what a what a great guy I am, you know, giving her these gifts. I bought her this dress, whatever it was, you know. By the way, in the end, who even knows? Could have been some guy pretending to be a girl, which which is entirely possible, right? No more online
28:54 dating for me, by the way. But it's it's these kinds of situations into which we get ourselves that can be very damaging to our financial well-being. So, you know, someone may ask us, "Oh, can you can you you know, I I lost my job, but I need to have my cell phone so I can job hunt. Will you pay my cell phone bill?" Right? So something like that falls under the same rubric of of my you know my policy on lending money. Well no
29:30 I won't give you the money. uh but if you want to do some work to earn it uh we can discuss that right and if and if the answer is oh that would be great right and by the way that is a better solution than lending somebody money because most people if you lend them money you know on some level they do intend to pay it back but then it accumulates sometimes it accumulates to the point where they just feel overwhelmed by the debt and that's why it doesn't get paid back. Whereas if we set up a situation where they can earn the money, so then
30:06 they're getting the money for, you know, services rendered so to speak and they're they're not burdened by this idea that they owe somebody money, right? So that can be a better way. And if they're the fact of the matter is although for those of you who have who you know heard me uh do shows on job hunting although job hunting is a full-time job in itself the vast majority of people do not job hunt seven or eight hours a day. Most people who are job hunting may job hunt a couple of hours a day. Three or four at the most.
30:43 Okay. It's a very first of all it's a very exhausting process. and number one. And number two, most people are just not particularly methodical about how they do job hunting, right? So, um, someone who's who's job hunting but is asking you for, you know, financial assistance so they can job hunt, they can work in they they have the time, okay? And and and and if they are literally job hunting, you know, eight hours a day, well, okay. So, you know, if you're if if you're if they're asking you to pay a cell phone bill, maybe it's, you know,
31:18 $50, $60 a month or something like that, uh they can squeeze out, you know, three or four hours of work, you know, on the weekends or or in the evenings or something like that. Okay. Always a better solution, right? So, um, the the the flip side of this sort of, you know, like gift economy maybe we'll call it or or the the do me a favor economy that we call is um when someone does someone a favor, often times they feel obliged to reciprocate
31:54 the favor even when they can't afford to, right? And that can breed resentment as well. Okay. So merely being under a financial obligation to a friend or family member can be can put stress on a relationship. But even if they don't necessarily feel under, you know, they don't feel the, you know, financial obligation per se, they may feel pressure to return the favor, right? And so again, this is something to talk about upfront
32:29 and and say, "Look, I'm I'm I'm happy to help you out. Um, I'm happy to do you this favor. Um, you know, perhaps we can discuss a way for you to earn the money, but what I don't want to have happen is you to feel like you are somehow obligated to return the favor." Okay? U, it it, you know, because that that will have a negative impact on our relationship. Okay. So, so the relationship, you know, the theme of this show, if you will, is the relationship dynamics need to be considered as importantly, if not more
33:07 so, than the financial aspects. And partly that's so that the financial side of this doesn't get out of hand. Right? Once you've started uh lending somebody money or giving them small gifts, it can create an expectation that they'll continue. And so then if if down the road you want to have all these discussions, they're harder to have because they lead you they leave you open to the to the you know charge if you will. Well, why did you lend money to me in the first place if this is how
33:43 you felt, right? which is a major guilt, you know, put major way to put on guilt, of course. Um, and and the answer may be, I wanted to help you. I didn't think it through well enough at the at the beginning. Now, I've grown concerned about what's going on here, and so I think we need to speak about it. Okay? And that's perfectly legitimate, but it is better to talk about these various issues upfront. Okay? So the the final issue I want to talk about on this subject is that when we
34:20 you know have these invisible drains okay we're not just potentially losing the money and when I say losing the money I mean if obviously if we're giving the money away then the money is gone so it's not available for us to help ourselves or our families whatever our immediate families to whom we may to whom presumably we're responsible for supporting. Uh but we also and and if they're loans, okay, so we don't have use of the money even though hopefully at some point in the future we're you know we're going to
34:55 get repaid. Okay. uh by not having the money available to us, we're not able presumably if we can if we have the money to give or loan to someone else, we don't need it for current consumption, which means we could invest the money. I mean, we could, right? So that being the case,
35:33 we're giving up the return on that investment that we could have otherwise gotten. Okay? So let's say let's use that example I I gave a little while ago where, you know, we end up giving somebody the equivalent of about $100 a week. That's $5,000. Okay. So, not only are we giving up the use of the 5,000 or not only are we giving up access to the $5,000 for something we may need
36:08 over a year, the interest that we could have earned on $5,000 is probably a, you know, at least a couple of hundred. Okay? So, we're giving up the return that we could have earned on investing that money. That's it's what's called an opportunity cost. In this case, it's a lost opportunity cost. Okay? So, that's something to consider as well. So, if we're building our own financial future,
36:44 we're we're impeding our ability to do that when we make these loans. Now, maybe you're making a loan and you're charging interest on it. Okay? And and maybe there's some collateral behind the loan. Okay? That that's that is a business transaction now. Okay? Right? So, you know, if someone is going to ask you for a significant amount of money, you know, then, you know, part of the conversation pro might ought probably ought to be, well, if I'm going to do
37:20 this, I'm going to have we're going to have to handle it on a strictly business basis. So, you know, there's going to have to be paperwork. And it's the paperwork is easy to do. Okay. There's going to have to be some collateral. Collateral? What do you mean? Well, I mean, what happens if you're not able to pay the loan back? How, you know, I mean, this would be a significant financial loss for me, the amount you're asking. I'd like to do it, but I don't think I can justify doing it if if if there's a, you know, a significant
37:56 chance that I'm not going to get the money back. And in the meantime, I'm taking the money out of, you know, an investment account, you know, a savings account or a money market or whatever, wherever you have the money, I'm taking out there. So, I'm losing the return that I get on that investment. And that's that's just not that's not just me taking a loss, that's my family taking a loss, right? And again, I think, you know, that will give you an opportunity to to get an idea of how the other person is really looking at this. If the other person
38:31 says, "Well, you know, um, those are good points. I hadn't really thought about that." And it is reasonable for me to, you know, in exchange for you lending me the money to make sure that, you know, you're not you're not losing by doing me this this favor or this service. however you you know choose to you know describe it, right? And I know by the way going back to the example of um of you know my two friends who lend me money uh you know I I told them I said
39:08 you know if you want collateral okay I'm I'm prepared to you know give you collateral so you know I'm I was prepared to use my car as collateral that was really the only asset I had at the time right and I would I I would use something called a UCCC1 form. It's a it's a form that's filed that makes personal property that is non-real estate property collateral for a debt. And I told them that upfront and you know and they said no that's not necessary. You know trust you know you're a credible guy. Okay thank you. Um, but I think that if if someone is
39:46 insulted by the idea of discussing collateral, right? Well, so I think that's telling you something important about how they may be looking at this favor that they're asking you, right? They they're essentially asking you to give them the money, even if they're calling it a loan. And and people people we do that, right? Oh, can you loan me, you know, 10 bucks so I can blah blah blah blah blah. We all, most of us realize that's not really a loan. There's give me $10, right? That's that's one thing. But, you
40:21 know, loan me $5,000 because I need to get my car repaired. Okay. Well, I I you know, if you're living in Los Angeles, you got to have a car. You're not going to use public transportation. I assure you. Not if you value your your life. Uh, so $5,000 is a lot of money. And as I was just saying a moment ago, the, you know, loss of income on that money could be, you know, a couple hundred, could be more than that. Could be $500 over a year or maybe even more.
40:56 So, you know, that that's that's a really big favor that you're being asked to do. Okay. And so, uh, in in sort of wrapping this up, one of the things that I would recommend you do, uh, I if you're especially if you're already in a situation like this, if this is kind sound, if you're thinking yourself, go this kind of sounds like the situation I'm in with my brother or whatever, right? Write down all the money that you've given to the person. Okay? go back through your checking account or you
41:32 know wherever it is you you keep your financial records and see just how much have you given this person. It may turn out to be a lot more than you realize and then you know and and that is truly that this invisible financial drain uh after which you know this this episode is titled think what are you gonna do about this? I mean, are you just going to let it go on? Now, you may come to the conclusion, look, uh, it's not constraining me. It's not impeding my,
42:08 you know, future financial plans and I'm happy to do it. U, you know, my my brother always took care of me when I was younger and this is my opportunity to return the favor. Okay, great. But at least you're able to make that assessment in a cogent way rather than just sort of letting money go out and not really realizing just how much is going out the door, what that invisible drain is. And in the
42:43 future, if if you are going to get into such a situation, I recommend that you keep track of it from the beginning. Right? the date, the amount given, you know, what what the uh arrangements are, right? And that way you can be, you know, you can keep track of of this, you know, the obligations that into which you're entering and you can periodically assess is is is this something that should continue, right? And have all those discussions upfront that I that I mentioned
43:18 throughout this episode. Okay. So, I thank you very much for joining me today, especially live guests. And um if you have any thoughts, as as usual, if you have any thoughts, comments, criticisms, please uh feel free to put them in in uh put them on social media. All the links will be in the show notes. if this episode if you think if you know someone that you think would be interested in this episode or maybe you're in a situation with a family member or friend and you're not sure how to address the
43:56 situation, send them a link to this episode. Say, "Hey, I was listening to this guy Kevin talking about this. this this kind of sounds like the situation we're in and maybe would you you know listen to the show and then we could talk about it afterwards and then you can blame it on me. Okay. I have big shoulders. Uh but I' I'd sure appreciate the opportunity to to gain any any friend of yours as a a viewer or subscriber. So, okay. And let's see, tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Pacific time is my
44:31 show Jiggers's Place. We're going to have a cocktail and a smoo as we head into the end of the week. And then next week, Monday at 10 a.m. Pacific time is my show Trust and Estates Weekly. Tuesday, 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show People Making Money. I'm sorry, Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific time is my show Business Lessons from the Military. And then a week from today, I'll be back for the next episode of People Making Money. So, I thank you so much for joining me. Wish you a wonderful rest of the day and signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell. Courage
45:09 at all times, my friends.