0:01 Who [music] are you? And where are you going? [music] What do you want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemmel, and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and probate administration. Uh, primarily from the standpoint of other professionals like myself. Um, but also for those of you
0:39 who either are working on your own estate plan or maybe you've been made the executive of an estate and you're trying to figure out what you need to do. So, uh, this show is also designed to help you gain the knowledge you need to do that kind of work and and to communicate better with the various advisors that are that are helping you out. So, today I'm very pleased to have back as my guest, Michael Zwick. Uh, you can see his uh his subtitle there, the probate PI. Uh, Michael, if if you um
1:16 didn't see um the first show we did together now, I think what about a year and a half ago? Something like that.
1:22 >> Something like that. Yeah.
1:23 >> Yeah. So, Michael uh tracks down missing heirs and assets for estates among some other things that are not particularly pro uh probate and trust related. And uh because we hadn't spoken for a while, I I I asked Michael to come back on the show. I want to d first of all hopefully dive in a little bit uh more deeply into uh what Michael does and how he does it and and also see, you know, what may be going on uh that that's uh you know, has changed in the last, you know, 18 or 24
2:00 months since you on the show. So, Michael, thanks so much for for coming on the show today. Well, thank you for having me and pleasure to be here.
2:08 >> So, uh, you know, let's let's start for, you know, some of the people viewing it. You know, my viewership is much larger now than it was last time. So, tell us a little bit about your background so people can understand who you are and and and what you do.
2:25 >> Sure. So, I uh started my professional life as an attorney uh almost 25 years ago. uh started as a little side business uh recovering unclaimed money sitting in government treasuries whether state unclaimed property divisions or other government agencies uh started with two partners and we started doing it part-time and uh after all kind of grew where you know we still do that kind of work we also uh are applying the skills and knowledge that we learned in that arena to the trust and probate uh world where there are missing heirs or beneficiaries or someone has died and in
3:01 telling one what assets they own. Um so we just that's the work we do. We find either people who are due inheritance or we find inheritance that people are can't find.
3:11 >> And so I I would imagine because you come with a legal background. So you understand more of the intricacies of of probate administration than you know perhaps just a u you know a a regular I guess um you know sort of private investigator. Is that reasonable to say or
3:35 >> uh yeah I I think so. Well, I mean, frankly, I didn't practice much probate when I when I was when I was practicing law, but it definitely helps to have the knowledge of not only the of probate law, but also just to first of all, how to, you know, look up and read statutes or case law. Uh, just the other day, for example, I had a had a case where uh we needed to find heirs for an estate where where the father's side of the estate was unknown. and I had to look up the relevant state law as to how far out on you go on the family tree to define the errors. Um, so coming from the legal world, it helped
4:11 me in terms of be able to just know where to find the statute and how to read it. Um, but that it comes in play in other arenas because you never know what other legal issues might come up that could affect somebody's um somebody's heir or relationship to somebody whether it could be being having adopted adopted into the family, adopted out of the family. Um, some you have um issues where an heir might have committed a crime or something like that. There's so many different legal issues that might come up that it helps to have that that knowledge and background uh in order to either know the issues or know how to find the
4:46 issues.
4:47 >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that that and that makes perfect sense. Interestingly, just um a few weeks ago I did a share I'm sorry, a show I should say on the laws of descent and distribution here in California and and they're they're quite complex. Um I'm not a lawyer as as viewers know but I you know I deal with a lot of legal uh issues and reading statutes and such and and even given that background uh it it was it was a challenge to kind of parse through all that information. So, what would cause someone
5:25 first of all um who would typically engage you and what would cause that person to want to do a search for heirs? So, I'll I'll give you a sense of where the question is coming from. uh you know I handle typically disputed uh um probates where uh the heirs have descended into sort of two or more waring camps, right? And the last thing they want is for yet another heir to be identified because now that means you know the pie is going to be sliced even
6:02 more thinly. So uh you know h who would who would initiate uh you know a search for additional errors and and why what are the reasons why they typically do that.
6:17 >> Um okay so lot lots to unpack in that. Uh so first of all in terms of the the pie getting swallowed you know obviously uh when people are signing uh documents for court including the petition where they're laying out who the heirs are whether they know where they are or not. Um on the bottom of everyone it says basically there's a uh a a statement that says that everything in there is to my knowledge true uh under penalty of perjury. So people are going to put it in there even if hopefully they'll put it in there even if it means they're going to get less. Um so yeah, usually
6:54 our finding people does reduce the the amount but often it's more that there's one if it's for for example they're trying to find one error. One error is missing just for for example one out of the 10 errors. If that 10 that tenth error can't be found it's not as if the other nine errors get to divvy up that person's money. Uh in most states that person's money will be just set aside and um deposited with the either the county or the state to hold for that person usually uh in perpetuity meaning
7:29 no one else could touch it anyways. Um California and Michigan are two notable exceptions to that rule that after a certain period of time it can be divvied up. Um, so in those states there there is a little bit of a disincentive to find people uh who who you know who quote quote unquote are missing. Um, so who's calling us tends to be usually be sometimes it's the executive or trustee who's handling the estate, but sometimes more often than not it's the attorney who's representing them. Um, the reason they call is because first of all they just want to do the right thing. They want they want to make sure that everyone's getting what they want. They
8:04 want to honor the last wishes of the deceased. Um and they also want to follow law. Uh they don't want to get into trouble. And I have seen where where cases where someone has um just you know conveniently omitted the knowledge of a person's existence or whereabouts. You know, we once handled a case where uh there were three children of the deceased and we we we start we came in after the fact after the money had been deposited with the county and it was very simple to find the third child who the other two said didn't you know didn't know where he was. Turns out he was living within just a few miles of
8:39 them and their their attitude was well he was never he was not not a good son. He stole money from his mother blah blah blah. I don't remember the exact but you know the they could have made that argument initially and said he stole therefore he shouldn't get his inheritance and they could have put that on the record but instead they they chose a deceptive u manner to do so by basically we don't know where he is and I think they were hoping after a few number of years they could just collect his money. Uh fortunately you know we found him and he was able to get his money and the court said you you have you have a theft claim against him they take them up take that up in a separate
9:14 proceeding. Um but to your question, usually it's going to be the attorneys. And one of the reasons also in addition to wanting to do the right thing and um and also do the legal thing is that when you can't find someone in many of jurisdictions, it makes the proceedings take that much longer and get more complicated. Uh so it really slow actually slows things down for everybody else. uh because you have to have sometimes a petition to um determine you know what to do with this person's money deposit deposit with the county or or whatever and until that is done you can't settle and distribute the rest of the estate um and in some jurisdictions
9:50 like especially like in Los Angeles County where you can wait months and months just to for a hearing on a very simple matter that can really slow things down. So it it really is to the benefit of everybody to have a company like mine come in and find those people and get them in there right away so that everything can move more smoothly.
10:10 >> Yeah. That and and that that certainly makes sense. So it it sounds like um when we talk about missing errors, it they're missing in the sense that people know that they at least at one time existed. They just don't know where they're living or something like that. as opposed to just sort of an open-ended search um for somebody who might be related to the deedent.
10:38 >> Well, there there could be those cases as well. I mean, we see that where um someone dies and the executive trustee could be someone who's appointed by the court or just another person where like we don't know who the person is, but we're handling a case right now for out of upstate New York where someone died and uh the I'm not sure I haven't got into why who the who the executive is relative. I think the executive is a maternal heir and she's like [clears throat] I don't know anything about the about the father's side of the family. So she's like we don't even know who to contact to let them know that there's an estate going there. Um so we
11:15 had to do a search. It turns out there there were no paternal heirs because the father was an only child and uh under most state law most states laws the uh the farthest you go on the family tree are the descendants of the grandparents meaning aunts and uncles and their children or grandchildren. So it turns out there were no antim calls. So therefore no no nobody else. Um but also one of the reasons that somebody calls us is you would somes you got to find there is even if they're not inheriting anything there's a common misconception that the person who's inheriting is an heir. Um an heir is simply someone who
11:50 is the from the most the closest relative to the deceased regardless of whether they're inheriting anything. So you could have someone who for example has children but leaves everything to charity. The children are heirs but they're not getting anything. So anybody who's an heir whether they're ch children or nieces or nephews or or cousins whatever they're entitled at least from the beginning of the proceeding to notice of the proceeding to know that there is a something's been filed that there's a will uh and they they can object you know if they want if they think there's grounds for to object to the will. Um, so sometimes that's
12:25 what we get what we get hired to do do as well is just simply find the mo the current address. Like we don't have our job does not entail getting a contact with the heirs or getting them money because they're not getting anything. We're just providing the most current information so that the executive can give notice. Again, if they can't do that, that can really slow the proceedings a lot.
12:45 >> Gotch. Okay. Interesting. So, um, just to make sure I'm I'm understanding this. So someone someone can be an heir without I I get the part they can be an heir without actually being entitled to any share of the estate. Now
13:02 >> in in in this are we talking about any relative of the deedent or are we talking about someone who has legal standing as an heir even though they may not be collecting any money or
13:16 >> so it's so it's legal standing. So uh you know some there there's a priority of who is defined as an heir. Uh and if there's somebody above that priority level anybody below it doesn't get anything. So for example you know I said you know aunts and uncles and cousins can be heirs
13:32 >> but they aren't if the deceased left children or grandchildren because the that that's as far as it's going to go. If the person didn't leave children or grandchildren, then you look to see, okay, did they leave any aunts or uncles? And if there are no aunts and uncles or did they leave, you know, first cousins or cous first cousins once removed. Uh so you know whether you you could have two people you know nextdoor neighbors who both lost a first cousin uh you know and one one of them will be in heir one of them won't
14:02 >> because one of them there could be someone in between more closely related to the deceased and the other one doesn't have someone more closely related.
14:10 >> Okay. So, so you know, like a a third cousin, fifth removed, which to be honest with you, I'm not even sure you know how that works. But, you know, you hear all these things about very distant relatives or or like you watch, you know, Downtown Abbey and, you know, this guy who's he's like he's I think he has like a third cousin or something like this. He ends up inheriting the title. So, someone like that is still considered an heir. Um, even though, you know, they're they're so far distant. um isn't really related or
14:42 >> so so most states limit it as I mentioned earlier to only going so far out in the family tree. Usually it's it's most states limit it to either the descendants of grandparents. So aunts and uncles or their descendants or descendants of the great-grandparents. So it could be uh you know great aunts and uncles and their descendants. And that's pretty much as far as I go. I want to say and I haven't dealt with it a while. believe California is the only state California has I I believe has a rule at least it used to that if someone if there's money for missing heirs after the proceeding then at that point
15:19 anybody no matter how far out on the family tree as long as they can prove they're related can come claim that money uh but that is a that is a uh outlier of a law most states say if there are no known errors then then the money just goes to the county or the state and they counter state gets to keep the money
15:36 >> okay So, so it becomes a process of of a cheat after if there are no if there there are no heirs to
15:44 >> and that that's actually the the original definition of a cheat goes back to uh you know old Mary England where it meant that if somebody died without without heirs their property became the property of uh of the crown of of the kingdom. Um, so nowadays we use the word a sheet. It it does it's it's a sheet is used a little more widely than it should be now. Sheet refers just to unclaimed assets that are dormant for a certain period of time regardless of whether the owner is alive or dead or the owner is a corporation. That's a whole different other story.
16:16 >> Gotcha. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back with Michael. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step. Magnum Properties, Inc. Turning property
16:53 challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 2132644396 or visit magnumprops.com. So this is Trust and Estates Weekly and I'm your host Kevin Beml. My guest is Michael's Wick, who is essentially a private an attorney turned private investigator who finds heirs and assets. And we've been talking about the the the process of finding heirs, the wise and the house and the wherefors and that
17:28 sort of thing. So, so Michael, uh, you know, how does the process work? I mean, does you know, somebody gives you a name or or you know, and then you I don't know, you you put on your, you know, Sherlock Holmes [laughter] and start, you know, sleuththing through the streets. I mean, that would seem to, you know, not be a very efficient way to work. So, I'm curious, you know, how how is it that you, you know, find these people?
17:56 >> Well, I'm more of a Magna PI guy, so I'll put on one of my Hawaiian shirts instead. Okay. But uh so so you know it really depends first of all what kind of case it is whether it's a you know whether they don't know the identities or whereabouts of either all the heirs or a group of the heirs like for I mentioned earlier all the they knew the maternal heirs but they didn't know who the paternal heirs were. Uh, so we're starting from scratch and we have no idea whether we're going to find zero errors or we might find out 20 or 25. Uh, versus where there's money for a specific person. You know, we have cases where we get a call and says, I've got
18:32 a4 million dollar inheritance to give to the niece Michelle, but like we can't find her. So that so um you know we're not you know contrary to what what you might think and uh we're not out there you know you know going on the streets and and you know knocking on doors so much at least not right away. Um it's a lot of ordering documents accessing databases. Uh we we tend to it's funny we a few years ago the insurance company used for our general you know company insurance like every company has uh notified us one day that they were no longer carrying us because they didn't
19:07 realize that we're private investigation agency and we had a whole back and forth them explain to them we in terms of the risk of like hurting other people or whatever we're probably much more and more in line with a an accounting firm uh than we are with a private investigation firm and nobody in my company carries a gun. We don't do surveillance. To the extent we're actually out on the street, it's because we're someone's driving to a courthouse to pick up some documents. Uh occasionally, you know, yes, we will go knock on someone's door. We don't really meet a lot of our clients face to face, but that's partly because we get cases from all over the country and our errors
19:42 can be anywhere in the world. Uh we do have cases though where we where we do meet them especially but that's usually more in the beginning where they understandably dubious about uh whether what we're telling them is real because we're calling people go hey great news we found money for you and we understand they're going to be a little skeptical. So sometimes having a face-to-face in-person meeting can help. Um so in those cases or sometimes we'll we will just go knock on a door if we just can't get a hold of someone. We might just go knock on the door where we think that person's living. Um, but that doesn't happen too often. Most of my work is done in front of a computer and on a telephone. Uh, and that's most goes for
20:18 most of my staff.
20:19 >> Interesting. Um, so switching gears here a little bit on the asset side of the equation. Well, for heirs, okay, so we can typically get a sense, okay, did the person have children? Did the person get married? Right. So it it I would I would guess many times there's at least some sense of whether a person you know ex exists although you you mentioned some cases where not but how does it how does it come about that you know an asset becomes lost and I'll I'll sort of play
20:56 this out so like in one of the estates that I'm administrating uh we're we're you know two years into the administration and I think maybe six months months ago, um I was, you know, going through some folder and I found, you know, a document that appeared to indicate the estate might own a property in, you know, Cabo San Lucas, uh, you know, and and I was able to, you know, figure it out. But, you know, short of of a of a piece of paper, you know, identifying something, I would have had no idea that potentially there was an
21:34 asset, you know, that I didn't know about. And I I mean in theory I guess I could have every single estate I administrate investigated for uh you know for quote unquote missing assets but [clears throat] you know I would have no idea about how you know where to direct you or or or anything like that. I mean, you know, so aside from checking, you know, lost property um in in the state in which, you know, the the deedent uh lived and maybe did business or the states in which the the deedent
22:10 lived and did business. I I would have no idea, you know, where to or even if I should search for assets. So, how does that aspect of things come about for you? So, you know, typically we we only get involved in cases where we are where the errors are starting from scratch. They just don't know because, you know, we we that kind of work we do on a contingency fee basis. We only get paid for what we find. Um so, if they come to us and says, "Hey, we've already found this, this, and this." But we would just want to make sure we got everything, I'll usually decline that case because
22:45 at that point, the odds of us finding something are so much smaller. uh in terms of how things get lost um uh you know people buy you know open bank account multiple bank accounts I think back to this is years ago my grandfather who has been gone now for 31 years he lived in the lower side of New York and he used to just you know back this is back in the day when they'd give out you know toaster ovens or alarm clocks whenever you open accounts he had a whole closet full of these of these appliances that he would then give out as gifts to people um and he um so he
23:20 would like just go around to all the different banks in the neighborhood and he just every so often if he found out they were giving something he he'd open up another account and he put another hund you know $100. But sometimes you know people some people are very secretive about what they have.
23:33 >> Um some people you know they there could be a variety of reasons and sometimes they for they invest in assets and just forget about them. You know, I remember years ago we had a case where this was unclaimed property, but we found about $600,000 of blue chip stock that had been, you know, of Pepsi Cola and some other ones that some woman had bought stock years and years before. Uh she listed her two sons as the co-owners of the of these stocks and then she passed away. She never told them about it. She probably bought the stock, you know, when it was much you many many years
24:08 before invested with P whatever the case might be. never told them about it. We found them and they were they're both like long-distance truck drivers and all of a sudden they're getting this, you know, this nice this nice added inheritance. Um there are a whole variety of reasons why assets could be. So, you know, you mentioned it, you know, and you do something that's very smart, which is go on to the unclaimed property site where the person lived. Unfortunately, not every company or bank or insurance company does reports money to unclaimed property. Um, so you know, you what we do is when we take on a case is I'll talk to the family, talk to, you
24:43 know, a relative or two and get a kind of draw a profile up of the person, find out, you know, did, you know, did they what did they do for a living if they if they worked outside the house? Um, you know, did they do they have any hobbies? Did they travel? You know, did they um, you know, variety of things. And then then we can sort of draw that profile up as to where assets might be. You know, for example, if the person was a, you know, worked for one big company for a number of years, we'll go, oh, let's see if there's a pension out there.
25:17 >> Uh, you know, some sort of pension or retirement accounts. Same thing with a if they work for a government agency for a while. So, it really depends. Really have to like assess look at the person. And part of it is because we've been doing unclaimed property recovery for 25 years is we do know where what kind of assets do get left behind and kind of where where to look for them. [clears throat]
25:38 >> Unfortunately, contrary to what people think though, we do not have some sort of special database that just has everybody's assets on it. I wish I wish we had such a thing, but that as far as I know, it doesn't exist. At least not outside at least not in private hands. Well, well, what's interesting is in theory, like for the state of California, for example, you know, the unclaimed property, you can go online and you put in the person's name or you put in I typically will put in a few permutations of the person's name, right? Um, but most of the time what you know what I find it would cost me more
26:13 to file the paperwork than I would be able to recover. You know, it's like $2.38.
26:20 >> Yeah. My I know my my paternal grandmother who passed away 40 years ago has 50 or $60 with the state of Michigan and my father knows about it but they said hey we're getting the death certificate which if my father doesn't have one that will cost 25 bucks to get a copy of it right
26:38 >> and then he'd have to do an affidavit and showing that he's splitting it three ways between him and his two siblings like
26:45 >> at that point for him to get you know the the the you seven or eight bucks or whatever it is is just not Worth it.
26:51 >> Yeah. Yeah. And California, it's the same thing. Death certificate and the affidavit has to be notorized. And
26:57 >> yeah. Well, I mean that that's really that notorization actually is not that big of an issue because uh pretty much any bank has a notary and I think post office can also do it. So that's actually I consider what unless someone's homebound uh is is not the biggest and states by the way are starting I think some states are starting to accept um virtual notoriization. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. California is not among them [laughter] yet.
27:23 >> No.
27:24 >> So, kind of, you know, here in the United States, and I think this is true of all the jurisdictions, you know, like titles to property are recorded and,
27:36 >> you know, there's there's, you know, pretty strict banking regulations and regulations on, you know, security accounts and all that kind of stuff. But once you get outside of the United States, um so for example, I've had a couple of situations of of dealing with, you know, potential um you know, property in Mexico. Um and and the the sense I get is um you know, the the systems for keeping track of of ownership of property are not as I don't know, robust, thorough, I don't even know how what the right word is. um and
28:13 maybe even more importantly as easily searchable as as they are here in the United States. So I'm I'm curious to to hear your thoughts um because you you you do work, you know, worldwide. So what are some of the challenges once you you get outside the United States? Uh it's definitely a challenge in many countries because you know you don't appreciate until you start doing the kind of work I do outside states that America is a very open country in terms of its information and records. Uh you know the ability you know you just land
28:49 but it's also you can look up if someone's got also um you know any sort of watercraft or aircraft is not that many people have but those are registered. Um but there are other assets that are you know you you can find out about the fact that like they even have unclaimed property lawsuits don't have a lot of countries don't have that so it it can definitely present the challenge and that also goes for finding finding people is uh you know us you know there are you know there are ways you know we have some databases that we subscribe to we have had to go through security clearance to get it and whatnot um and they're not cheap either uh but
29:25 they allow me to look into and I could I could if I wanted to look up somebody's past addresses and who they who are relatives of theirs and stuff like that. Um whereas as far as I know that's not really available in many other countries. Uh I mean there are there are definitely databases of people where you know like back the old days of uh I was just telling my kids the other day about how you know when I met their my wife their mother you know 20 three years ago I you know met her and I called information and I got her phone number and like who slow down for a second you
30:03 called a number to get mom's number? I was like yeah that's how it worked back then. uh but like
30:08 >> phone book
30:09 >> well there's still that to some extent in other countries but uh not nearly what the US has uh in terms of information and it really like various country country you know we've located people in in in dozens of countries throughout the world but there are some countries I wouldn't even bother trying you know like you know North Korea uh you know Cuba right now I mean Cuba is starting to open up and if I knew people on the ground maybe but there are certain country and not not only is a matter of finding them but then also getting contract with them and then also getting them their money getting their money to them. Um which frankly you know
30:46 I I try to do good I you know we have a mission our company to help people but also it is a business and I want to make sure we get paid and uh you know getting paid from someone in Cuba is uh a lot less likely than getting paid by someone in in uh Louisiana. [laughter]
31:03 >> Yeah indeed. All right, we're going to take another quick break and we'll be back for more.
31:11 >> Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration, featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Bralet, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time
31:47 searching. So, we're back again with Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm Kevin Beel, your host, and my guest is Michael's Wick. been talking about finding lost heirs and assets. Quite quite a fascinating discussion. We were just talking about uh countries where it's virtually impossible to find either. Um places like, you know, North Korea and Cuba. That that that certainly makes sense. um you know what about you know countries that are um you know typically
32:24 more open like you know I don't know Canada, Mexico, you know countries in Europe um h how do those compare uh to to the United States?
32:36 >> Uh so it definitely is definitely is easier in some countries rather than others. Like I said, you know, Australia is actually a much better country about finding people. England is um you know, obviously it's a little easier in English- speakaking countries because we we that's one less barrier to deal with. Um you know, once we get into other countries, then we need someone and we know we do have some foreign languages on staff, but you know, we get in, you know, if we had to find someone in in, you know, certain countries, we'd have much harder time than others. So it really like said it really just depends
33:11 on the country in terms of what they have. Also, you know, we we do have colleagues who in other countries around the world that do what we do. We will partner with them on certain things if we need someone on the ground to to get into records or or to go knock on someone's door and speak their language to them. Uh you know, we we we have that ability fortunately usually, you know, through definitely in throughout all of Europe uh and into into Asia. um you know hasn't been as much of an issue going into Africa. I guess we just haven't had that many cases. Um but we definitely have you know because we have
33:46 an association with other companies that we partner with and sometimes they'll call us. Sometimes they'll you know we'll get a call from someone in England saying hey I've got a case and I've got someone uh you know can you help me find find a person there or even go knock on their door and get them you know you know get them to sign like I was talking about earlier about you know overcoming that skepticism.
34:06 >> Right. Right. So, oh shoot. I and I I had a follow-up question and now uh I I I dropped it. Um well, so I'll move on to the to the next topic. So, oh, I here this is what it was. So, you you were talking earlier about how um having a lost heir can delay the administration of an estate. uh you know typically how long does if if there is a typically in you know in in this case how long does it take uh to
34:41 to find an air and and you know kind of get that person uh get that person's contact information or whatever so that the administration can proceed.
34:53 >> Um there really varies. We've had ones where we can find, you know, I could it would it could take me longer to log onto the database that we use than it would take me to actually find the person depending on how much information we have. Uh, you know, I think back to a case we had a number of years ago uh where we knew the the guy's name. We knew he lived in had lived in Orlando and Las Vegas and his name was was unique and it took us literally it took me literally once I logged on to the database you know putting in whatever data we had I I I was I found them
35:28 within seconds. Um and fortunately he was very open. He signed with us the next day. Great. No problem. Uh other times we're starting with no known errors and we're where we really have to build out the family tree from scratch. uh that can be more difficult especially because some what you know the starting point usually is okay person with no known on air uh we want we need to find out we like so we're filling out the family tree that starts with the parents of the deceased
35:56 >> so sometimes we'll have the parents names but then we got to then we got to dig into the parents relatives who their parents were their siblings were sometimes that information is available on online databases and and resources that we have but sometimes it means we have to order parents death cert certificate because that will contain the names of their parents and uh you know if they're married or stuff like that and and and ordering death certificate sometimes we can get in a few days but sometimes it could take a few months just to get one one single piece of paper and everything's held up until then. Uh so you know so much of it
36:31 varies based on the the unique circumstance of the case but also you know what jurisdiction we're dealing with. Uh, you know, so like I said, some some states we can we can get a death certificate turn around in a day or two. Some of them even if you want to rush order, it can take a month or two.
36:48 >> Wow. Wow. So, I mean, it really sounds like especially on the air side of the equation. It's almost like you're a genealogologist, right?
36:56 >> Yeah, genealogy is definitely part of what we do. I mean, I I was just on Ancestry for about an hour this hour this afternoon working on a case.
37:04 >> [snorts]
37:04 >> So I I can imagine you're you know like pouring through records of um what was the big port of entry in New York that that people
37:12 >> Ellis Island
37:13 >> Ellis Island right, you know, things like that. I mean there I I think there are online databases where you know they record people's names and such.
37:21 >> Yeah. I mean the most popular and well-known one is is ancestry.com uh which you know we we we use and it's definitely definitely comes in handy but there are other resources. Sometimes we go we we go into databases of newspapers to find look at obituaries
37:36 >> uh because then it'll tell us who's related to whom.
37:39 >> Wow. Wow.
37:40 >> And sometimes sometimes on the ground sometimes like I've gone to cemeteries where because if you you I'll if I know you know okay there's this one uncle that's the only name I know but I know there might be others. I might go to the cemeteries. Okay who's buried next to that uncle
37:56 >> and that you know who's buried around that uncle. So that might tell me who else, you know, what are other relative? If I see someone with the same name, that's going to tell me they're probably relative as well.
38:06 >> I mean, it's so interesting. The minute you mentioned it, of course. Yeah. Makes sense because typically when you go to a cemetery, you'll you'll you'll see,
38:15 >> you know, several graves often times with the same last name. So then they're probably connected. But it never would have occurred to me [laughter] to do that, you know, on my own, which is of course the benefit of having uh, you know, a professional and a specialist. So, um, we, you know, we're we're we're kind of coming up on our time here in a few minutes, but talk to me if you would about, um, some of the most unusual situations that you've handled and and and how they worked out. Um, you know, I think that
38:50 helps people, it helps sort of, you know, jogle people's minds into, you know, oh, I didn't think about that. That that may be something I should look into. Um, so let's see. I mean, you know, we have obviously had some interesting cases over the years of um, and this, you know, some the the law depends on it. In in California, for example, we had a case a number of years ago. Uh they it was a couple that never had children and unfortunately they were they were elderly. Uh one was homebound, but the other one who cared for her passed away
39:27 suddenly and the homebound one was left sitting there for until she passed away. And so yeah, the problem so the uh you know under California law the all their joint assets split even though we even though it's conclusively determined that the wife uh that the wife lived longer by at least a couple of days if not longer. Uh so therefore under the California law everything should have gone to her should have gone you know him then to her and then but under California law again having a unique law on this on this subject uh the law was that everything split with half going to
40:02 her heirs and half going to his heirs. Uh and it was one of his nieces that was handling the state. She's like I have no idea who who the the other heirs are. Uh so we stepped in we found the one heir but then we found another asset. We found a mobile home and lot in Reno, Nevada. Uh which and one of the things to understand is that um pro is always done in or should be done in the state and county where the deceased last resided except for if there's real estate in another states because real estate is governed by the the state where the real estate lays. So in this
40:38 case they got they actually they had property in Nevada. So that was controlled by Nevada law. Nevada law says no because it was conclusively determined that the wife survived long enough after him to you know by law that it was only her estate that got the proceeds of the of the sale of the Nevada property. [clears throat] And there's and there's also we had to but we had to open up a separate proceeding right
41:01 >> in in Nevada to deal with that. There also was a a property in in Houston, Texas, but that was it was so worthless. It wasn't worth it. We just abandoned it because it wasn't worth it wasn't worth the cost of opening an estate. Uh it was worth just pennies.
41:17 >> Wow.
41:17 >> Um
41:19 >> yeah. So part of it is really familiarizing yourself with uh with the unique laws and I would say, you know, I don't I am a lawyer. I don't practice law anymore. So, I'm not giving out any illegal advice, but uh unless it's a really simple estate, you know, get a lawyer uh because there might be nuances to the state you're not even thinking about.
41:40 >> Right. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, um Michael, you know, again, I really appreciate you you Oh, oh, wait, sorry, one last question before I before I let you go. what if anything has changed um in in in what you do over the last you know couple of years and any any you know kind of updates on those from that perspective.
42:04 >> Um uh not so much. I mean I don't think I don't think in our area that that that technology has really uh you know ced too much uh or advance things that much. I know I know from having you know read of what people who in my line of work did back in the 80s or 90s where they where they literally had stacks of phone books by their desks uh they would have like phone books from all over the country in case they ever needed one or if they didn't they call call a company and say can you send me your phone book uh and they you know they have to go over with a pager and every time you
42:40 know they from the road they didn't have cell phones so uh I'd say in the last you know 10 to 15 years you know I I I think the biggest thing though I would say is probably the the amount of data like sites, you know, sources like ancestry or newspaper.com. They're always adding more sources because you know th those those sites are sites are basically collate collating data. They're collating uh information and documents for you. You're not they don't just you don't just put a name and it spits out a report for you. You actually have to wade through the documents and and glean the data that you need. And so
43:15 one of the things is they're just adding new data every every every day they're adding new databases to their stuff. Um you know for example every you know every 10th year ending in number two uh the census records from 72 years earlier uh become public record. So in 2032 the 1960 census records will come online. And for people like me that is that's a that's a bonanza. that's you know because that's just a whole major set of information out there that's not available. Uh so that I think that's the
43:50 biggest thing is just it's just more and more uh information is is coming into these databases to make to help us.
43:58 >> So and this is kind of a question I don't know I don't know how many people will be interested in this but I'm interested in this because I'm dealing with this in my own practice. H how if at all is you know large language models and other AI uh you know features how is that uh impacting what you do? are you able to get, you know, productivity gains there and such or or is is it, you know, pretty much
44:23 >> I will I will admit to being somewhat of a lite in that [laughter] in that uh I I do use uh AI for certain things but I more for management than actual research. Uh but I um I have thought about just now literally thought of like hey what if I what if I give in the narrative of a of a thing and tell AI to produce the family tree for me so I don't have to map it out now that I think about it I'm I'm gonna have to try that. Um well because you mentioned having to you know sort of pour through documents. I mean like I I know I can
45:00 upload a document to you know chat GPT and and I can say hey find you know X Y or Z and I think it'll do that. So
45:08 >> right
45:09 >> you know I it just cured because you know this is listening to um you know business podcasts and such. This is an ongoing topic, right? How this is going to impact all of our businesses and
45:21 >> Yeah, it definitely is. It's just it's just a matter of, you know, like so my uh putting some thought into it. Uh [laughter]
45:30 >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been able to do, you know, become more productive, but it it it takes some initial thought at how am I going to, you know, make this happen.
45:40 >> Well Well, Michael, thank you so much for coming on on the show today. I really appreciate it. It's been a been a great uh conversation and and hopefully we'll we'll have you on again sooner than [laughter] you know a year and a half or two years from now. So
45:55 >> love to
45:56 >> Great. So I'm gonna have you hang tight here for a minute. I'm just doing a quick wrap up. So
46:01 >> thank you so much for joining me today joining and my guest Michael really appreciate you checking out the show. If you have any questions, comments, criticisms, uh links to social media will be in the show notes after the episode posts on YouTube. Happy to hear them. Uh if you want to get in touch with Michael, um I'll put his contact information in the show notes as well. Uh you know, shameless you, you know, I'm going to give him a shameless plug. I always do. But but I I've known Michael for a while now and I can tell you that uh he's both a a very decent
46:38 man. We've gotten to know each other um as as friends as well as professional colleagues and uh you know absolutely tops in in what he does. Don't don't let his um very uh sort of humble demeanor fool you into thinking anything other than, you know, he's really at at the top of of the uh of the business of of finding uh heirs and assets. So, uh Michael's contact information will be in the show notes. Uh and then so just real quickly, tomorrow, Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific time is my show, Business Lessons from the Military. And Wednesday
47:16 at 10:00 a.m. is my show uh people making money. So hopefully I'll see you later on in the week. And again, thank you so much for joining me. Michael, again, thanks for being a guest on the show and just signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.