0:03 Who are you and where are you going? What do you want? [Music] Technology is great when it works, but when it doesn't, Wow. Well, hello and welcome to People Making Money, one of the Way to Wow shows. We're here every
0:38 Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about job hunting, starting and building a business, and building wealth. all of the financial aspects of our lives. So, uh just before um the the show started, um one of my uh colleagues dropped by for a few minutes. Um she was bringing me some papers. Um I think she's a regular viewer of the show because she mentioned she was going to try and and and tune in again to this this morning or this morning our time anyway. And uh she was asking me, well, what what is your topic?
1:15 And uh the the topic is one very near and dear to my heart. Um how saying no uh builds wealth and sanity for that matter. Uh it it it is an incredibly hard lesson to learn. Uh one that it took me years and years to even realize was a a possibility. So, uh, you know, I I came out of a situation, uh, or well, situation, that's not the
1:51 right thing. I mean, I I was I was raised that, you know, you you you you say yes, right? Um, and if you've if you've ever um if you've seen the the show I did with my friend Bob Sanders, uh, he does a play on some company's slogan, he's just say yes. Just say yes to opportunity. And in general, I think that is um a good uh a good philosophy. However, there are times when saying no is undoubtedly not only the correct answer,
2:28 it's the very very best thing uh that that you can say. And I I you know, as I reflect back on my life, you know, I'm I'm not a young guy anymore. There are many times that in retrospect um I I wish I had had the uh wisdom to to say no. Uh whether it was a business situation or for that matter even some personal situations. Uh so I'll start out with with with a a bit of a story or not a bit of a story with a story. You know in
3:04 the Navy we call DC stories. We should have a similar uh phrase for uh the business world, I think. So, uh um I was uh um gosh, now I've gone up on the story. I was just telling my colleague. Uh so I had a um uh a client uh well a prospective client came to me and she owned uh this this was when I had my real estate company um back from the mid 80s to the mid 2000s and um client came
3:41 I don't remember how she found out about me but one of the things my company did was manage property and and back then I managed uh apartment buildings with here in Los Angeles, which uh frankly I would I would not do today. Too too difficult today. Um and she had, as I recall, four buildings. Um yeah, three or four buildings. Um none of them were particularly nice buildings, but you know, whatever. It was a a big chunk of business. And uh and she, you know, she wanted to know if I would manage the buildings for her. And I, you know, I
4:17 said, "Well, you know, let's let's talk about it kind of thing." and and we talked about it and she really you know grilled me on the fee really you know negotiated hard on the fee and uh you know right at that time I got a sense wait a minute um this is not a good situation but I felt like you know you never say no so you've you've you know I so I I I negotiated the best deal that I could and I I took on the properties And from the beginning I regretted it. So um
4:54 at the time both of my parents worked for me even though they had at that point been divorced for gosh probably about u let's see this would have been probably for about 20 over 20 years over 20 years. And uh my mother did the uh bookkeeping uh and you know paying all the checks and that kind of stuff in the office. And my dad who was basically retired at that point um but and you know didn't really have anything to do and and uh so I got him a
5:29 box of tools and he was kind of the handyman for the various buildings um that I managed. And my dad always loved doing that kind of stuff. And he would go and he would meet with the tenants. And my dad could be very charming at times. I remember one of the uh female tenants calling me after my dad had repaired something for and saying, "Oh, your handyman is so nice, you know, blah blah blah blah blah." And I said, "Oh, well that's that's my dad." She's like, "That's your dad?" You know, kind of thing. So, you know, it was very very funny. but he really enjoyed, you know, like I said, sort of going from building to building and fixing this and that
6:04 and, you know, helping helping the tenants and all that kind of stuff. So, uh, this this, uh, particular client, I'm going to call her Julie. That is not her real name. Uh, I'm just that's just a name I picked out of the air. Um, so Julie, uh, right away started making all kinds of demands that were way out of line. Um, and uh, and and and yet at the same time, she would just not spend a penny on maintaining any of her
6:39 buildings. So, in one situation, I had a tenant call me um to let me know that there were cockroaches in in their house. Uh that's pretty disgusting, by the way. And and so I I checked the records of the building that I had gotten and there was no pest control service there. Now, here in Los Angeles, especially with older buildings, and these all were older buildings built in the, you know, 30s, 40s, that kind of time frame, you have to have pest control uh spraying around the buildings once a month minimally. And then usually the pest control service for the monthly
7:14 fee, they'll also do the interiors of usually was a couple apartments a month um if need be. And I realized the building didn't have that service. We're talking about something that again at the time was I think $25 a month, maybe $30 a month, very inexpensive. And so I went ahead and engaged a pest control service. And the when when the owner got the statement for that month, she called me up furious that I had instituted a pest control service uh to
7:49 spray the building and uh insisting that I that I cancel the pest control service uh and and and insisting that the tenants just kept a filthy house and that's why they had cockroaches. when I told her why I had done it and I told her, "Look, I I walked through the apartment. Their their house is kept well. This is not due to something that they're doing. It is a problem with almost all buildings like yours, especially in that area." And, you know, big big argument about it. I think in the end I I ended up having to cancel it. You know, she refused to pay for it.
8:26 and and right then and there she told me that she was not interested in anything other than squeezing every last penny out of these buildings no matter what the consequences the situation for the tenants the you know the the impact on my ability to effectively manage the buildings etc. Uh, and so sometime later, I think maybe a month later, not not very long after that, month, maybe a month and a half later, I was actually in Palm Springs on another project and my dad called me up. Um, and uh, uh, you
9:01 know, interesting dynamics of parents. Um, even though my parents had been divorced for a long, long time, my dad was always, you know, very protective of of my mother if if given the opportunity. So, uh, my dad called, it was my dad calling and, uh, he said, he said, "I I need to talk to you about something." I'm like, "Yeah, what's up?" He said, "Well, uh, Julie screamed at your mother, right?" I'm like, "What what do you mean?" And I I guess, so the the long and the short of it was the client Julie had called my mother up and was had screamed at her
9:36 about, I don't know, whatever the bills or this or that. And my dad was insensed that, you know, a client would do that. So I said, "Well, thanks for letting me know. I'll I'll I'll give mom a call and find out what's going on." And, you know, called my mother up and asked her what was going on. Now, from my mother's perspective, having worked for a lot of very high pressure people, me not among them, I hope. Um, she was kind of used to people screaming at her. And so when I asked her, I said, "What's, you know, what's going on?" She said, "Regular day." I'm like, "Well, dad said that, you know, Julie went off on you, screamed at you." She says, "Oh, yeah.
10:11 She does that almost every time she calls. I'm like, "What?" She said, "Yeah, that's, you know, that that's who she is kind of thing." I'm like, "Yeah, that's not acceptable. I'm sorry. I'm dumping her. Please box up all of her records, you know, cut final checks, do final um reports for her, and I'll have dad come by and pick up the box and deliver it to her and tell her she's fired." I was just I was just fed up with it at that point. Um, and I called my dad back and told him what I wanted him to do. and he's like gladly, you know, he he despised this woman. Um, and she, you know, I I talked to my dad afterwards. She was shocked that I would
10:48 have the timmerity to fire her, especially summarily like that. Um, and and my attitude, you know, at that point was you are so difficult to deal with. you are uh you are abusing me, my my staff, the tenants uh in your buildings, just not going to be a part of that. Um and I could have saved myself a tremendous amount of grief, not not to not um and not to mention a financial loss. Um because when you take on a new
11:25 property management contract, there's a big upfront workload. It takes time to sort of pay that off, if you will, based on the monthly fee. And so there was there was a lot of time and work that in the end I never got compensated for because I fired her. But in the but the fact of the matter was she was so demanding I was never going to make any money uh working for her. I should have when when I got that sort of you know that you know spidey sense or whatever it is I should have said you know what no I I I don't want to handle your properties that that would have been it would have saved me time
12:02 aggravation money I mean there was there was nothing good I got out of that except that it drove home the lesson that I don't have to say yes to every client and this was the second client I had fired. Um really in in my career up to that point. Um and and after the first one, you thought I would have learned my lesson, right? Once burned, shame on you. Twice burned, shame on me. It took me that second time to understand that
12:37 one of the most important skills we can have in business is the ability to say no. and and then that in the end is better than having to fire a client where in essence you've said yes to the client and now you're turning around and and and firing them um and and they they take a lot of umbrage at that they get very upset uh you know etc etc. So uh you know this is the kind of situation that hopefully we can learn to avoid by cultivating uh you know the ability to
13:12 say no. So, I I I have some thoughts on this uh that I that I want to um share share with you um that that hopefully will make it easier for you to develop this skill. So, first of all, I think it's important to look why is it so hard to say no, right? I mean the fact of the matter is a number of problems in life and in even in our society in theory could be solved if people had a better ability to say no. So one is I think there's a cultural bias toward yes. Um
13:50 despite the decline in uh creation of new businesses uh in in this country over this last several decades, nonetheless, we're still a pretty entrepreneurial culture. And an entrepreneurial culture breeds this this sense that you we have to say yes. And again, going back to where I started, you know, with my friend Bob, just say yes. In many cases, yes is the right answer. Maybe in most cases it's the right answer, but it's not always the right answer. And that's the key. So
14:25 while we have a cultural bias toward saying yes, that we have to sometimes overcome that for the good of our business and our sanity ourselves. So I think that's that's one one issue. Another is there's a there's a sort of a fear of of missing out like well maybe I don't understand this fully. Maybe there's more to it that we just haven't gotten to yet and if I say no I'll never find that out. So um okay I'm going to say yes and and and sort of go with the flow or there's a f a fear of burning
15:01 bridges. So, if I say no to this one, then you know, this person will never refer anything to me again if it's a referral source or if I say no to a potential customer or client, they'll never come back to me. Uh, and so I'm going to say yes even though it doesn't make sense for me to be doing this in my business. And then also there's I think there's a certain guilt especially for those of us who are people pleasers. And I I I certainly as a middle child especially, right? Uh it's like endemic
15:37 to middle children. We're people pleasers. And so to say no, we feel guilty like we're not doing what we're supposed to do. And then there's also this this sort of sunk cost bias that we have. And that is once I'm into it, I can't back out of it because I've already spent so much time on this. I've already put all this effort into it or I may have even invested some money in it. So, I can't turn around now and say no because I'll lose that whole, you know, that whole investment to date. And and
16:12 and and the problem with that is is that once once you've sunk the time, energy, money into something, that's gone no matter what. So, the issue isn't what you've put in before. The issue is what is this going to cost me going forward? And is that cost worth the potential gain? That's always the equation. What's already been invested is is almost never relevant. What's really relevant is what can I expect to gain versus what will I continue to have to
16:48 put in. Okay. So it's we need to look at the total investment what we've already put in plus what we need to put in going forward against whatever we expect to gain in order for us to make a rational decision. Okay. And not be swayed by the fact that well I've already been working on this for three months and you know blah blah blah blah blah so I guess I'll just you know stick it out. Okay. So I think those are things that make it difficult to say no and we need to keep those in mind so that we don't uh fall into a trap,
17:25 right? And if if we're in a situation, and I'm gonna I'm gonna post in the show notes this this part about why saying no is hard. So that um after you watch this show, if you need to, you'll you can refer back to it or you can even copy it out of the show notes and make yourself a little cheat sheet. I do that with several things. That's what these are back here. They're they're kind of cheat sheets and affirmations, things that I I need to keep in mind in order to make good decisions, keep my head in the game, that kind of thing. So, it might be something, you know, you want to you want to post or have it, you know, on a
18:01 window in your computer, some whatever you're going to do. So, so you're not tempted to say yes when you really ought to say no. All right. So, I think that's one one thing to look at. Another thing to look at is what is the cost of yes. Yes is almost never a costfree decision in in in business there in order for us to get something we have to give something our services our product. Okay that's that's the the bargain of business. So cost so yes is not
18:36 costfree. Yes, comes with a a a an expense to it. So, um so I'm going to tell a another story. The the the first uh incident where I I should have said no and or or or I should have asked more questions first of all and and then as a result I said no. So, I had a a friend of mine uh great guy his name is Ed Saxi. Uh we were in a a networking group together for many years. Ed was an accountant who went into the commercial real estate business. Did very did very well. And uh
19:14 part of his company uh was he did commercial property management. And this was back when I had my real estate company. I did uh mostly residential property management. And so he had a client come to him who had a bunch of commercial or I don't know several commercial buildings I think. But she had one apartment building and he didn't manage apartment buildings. So, he called me up and he asked me if I'd be interested in handling this building for the owner and and uh because it was Ed calling me and and like I said, I've always I've always have thought very highly of him. So, I said, "Yeah, sure."
19:49 You know, and and nothing against Ed, but um I I just, you know, assumed, I guess, that you know, he had, you know, vetted her. He was he told me he was managing some buildings for her, etc., etc. Uh, I'm going to call this person Julie as well. Okay, so there so you know there's no not not the real name. So she had a building in Bair, California. Okay, Belair is a district of the city of Los Angeles. Very high-end. Okay, and the building was was older. I want to say it was probably built in the 50s. Um, I mean was in, you
20:24 know, moderately good shape. Um, but you know, every tenant drove, you know, a BMW, a Mercedes. So, um, these weren't, you know, fabulously wealthy people, the kind who owned homes in Bair, but, you know, they were paying pretty big rents and and they were obviously making, you know, good money. Uh, I think they were making more money than I was at the time. Uh, and and and expected a, you know, pretty high level of of service in in their apartments. And like the first example I gave you, uh, the owner was, she was cheap.
21:01 There's just no way else of describing it. It was always a major discussion to get her to spend any money on repairs. Uh, she was always blaming the tenants for breaking things out of carelessness or whatever. And I would say to her, you know, um, I just remembered her name. I got to be careful not to say it. Julie uh you know this is the cost of owning a a building and you know these are residential tenants these are not commercial tenants so they are not responsible for repairs uh unless it's
21:36 in the lease which it typically is not and so we I have to make these repairs and it would then it would reduce the amount of money she got from the building each month and and this went on for years right and I just every time I had to speak to her, I was I was it was it was you know, God, I wish I didn't have to, you know, call her, that kind of thing. And uh you know, I went on and on and on and um several years after taking on the building, I was talking to Ed and for some reason, Julie came up in the
22:11 conversation. Uh I just realized this is funny because Ed's wife's name now that I recall is Julie, but not his wife. It's again, just just a name. and uh and I mentioned that, you know, that I was, you know, that I'm I've been handling her building and blah blah blah blah. And he said, "You're still handling her building?" I said, "Yeah, of course. I mean, look, you referred her to me." I said, "You know, she's a pain in the neck, but I I I wouldn't, you know, risk, you know, her thinking badly of you because she referred because you referred her to somebody who then turned around and, you know, dumped
22:46 her." And he's like, "Are you kidding? I dumped her years ago. She's awful. Like, oh no. That was the first time I realized you could fire a client. The cost of Yes. was so high working for this woman. the stress and the the constant difficult interaction with the tenants where you know I was the one who had to tell them things always that they didn't want to hear like I can't make this repair right now or you know you're going to have to pay
23:24 more rent even though the repairs are you know pending or what whatever it was right the cost of yes was incredibly high in that instance and so after I got on the phone with Ed I basically turned around And I told uh Julie that I was terminating the uh our agreement, you know, at the end of the following month or whatever it was. Um and um you know, now that I think about it, she wasn't particularly surprised. I think she may have been surprised I had hung in there that long. She was she was probably used to having ch to change property managers every, you know, few months or year or so because she was so difficult to deal
24:00 with. Now, you might argue, did she have no, you know, self-awareness? And and the answer is I I I think not. You know, so um you know, we we we we have to look beyond just the dollars, right? What is the cost of having said yes in terms of attacks on our energy, on our time, our on our focus, on our overall well-being, and on our ability
24:35 to take on projects that will be that will work better and be more profitable. Okay, that is always the underlying question of cost. If we have a finite amount of time that we can devote to work, okay, even if we work every minute of the day, we still only have 24 hours to work. Okay? and and of course we can't work every minute of the day. We've got to sleep. We do have to eat. We do have to, you know, attend to personal hygiene once in
25:10 a while, etc., etc., right? So, the reality is we have a limited number of hours each day that we can work. And if we're taking it up, working on something to which we should have said no, that means we are now hampered if we want to say yes to something that comes along. Okay, that that really is a much better thing for us to be working on. Minimally, even if we say yes to both, now we cannot devote as much time, attention, and energy to the good project because we're bogged down by the
25:47 awful project. Okay. So, not only so, so we need to examine anytime we take on a project, what is the cost of saying yes? Okay. And um there's there's a saying that um when we say uh yes to the to the wrong thing, we may end up having to say no to the right thing. And and that's that is not a that is not a formula for a successful business. Okay. So um when should you say no, right?
26:24 um you how how do you how do you you know work through that analysis? So um I've got a like a a a three a three-step uh or a threepoint framework if you will um to help you evaluate uh an offer a proposition um in in a in a in a business situation. Excuse me. So number one, alignment. Does it match your goals? Okay. So let's say that uh you have a plumbing
27:02 company. Uh if you've watched this show regularly, you know, I oftentimes talk about plumbing companies. you know, fantastic business to be in these days because uh AI will help uh make will help um plumbers work more efficiently, but but no AI is going to be able to do what a plumber can do, right? So, let's if if you are a plumber and someone asks you to fix something electrical, right? Does that match your goals? I mean, if you're a plumber and
27:37 you're a licensed plumber, hopefully, right? Does it match your goals to be doing electrical repairs? Uh, and and most likely the answer is no. Now, by the way, you may know how to do them, and you may even enjoy doing them, but does it match your goals? If the and if the answer is no, but I still want to do it, then maybe you need to change your goals. Maybe you need to change your business to one that does plumbing and electrical and then I guess you know go get an electrical contractor's license or whatever, right? So number one is to
28:13 look at alignment. How does this shape up with what I'm looking to do or working to do in my business? Does it fit? Right. So um in in my business as a professional fiduciary. So my license permits me to act as an as an administrator in probate as a trustee and as a conservator and a guardian. Now with respect to the last two conservator and guardian oftentimes there's a whole
28:48 healthc care oversight component that goes with being a guardian and a conservator. So from time to time people will call me up and ask me about being a conservator or a guardian and my response is I only do the financial side of those. So if you want someone who will handle the the the um the care of the person as well as the finances, I don't do that. I don't have the background to do it. Okay? I said, 'Now, if if you're
29:25 content with me contracting out the health care side of it and I handle the financial part of it that I will discuss with you, but I don't handle the health care side of it. Okay? And there's lots of reasons why I don't. Number one is, as I mentioned a minute ago, I don't know enough about it. Number one. Number two, don't like doing it. Okay? When I was when I was a boy scout, you know, um we used to visit uh at the time they were called old age homes or
30:00 nursing homes and I saw some of the stuff. I can't can't deal with it. Not my thing. Okay. Um and and and and it's very hard for me to, you know, watch people suffering and all of that. Um and and I have a hard time dealing with people who are who are declining. I mean, I do it when I have to. Um, I certainly did it for my dear Marie, of course, we, you know, we were we were very close. Um, and and so, uh, that was an exception. Um, but, um, she's the only one I've
30:37 done that for in uh, all the years that that I've been in my profession. That was a that was a special case uh, because of of the relationship that we had. but as a professional um you know it doesn't make sense for me to do that kind of work because it doesn't match my goals. Okay, so that's number one. Number two, capacity. Do you have the time and energy to take this on? Okay, and that's that's an important question and there needs to be a realistic assessment done uh of of this. So, um,
31:13 for several months I was involved in potentially being appointed as a, uh, a as the, um, uh, probate administrator on a particular case. Um, and it kept it's been going on now for the appointment just the appointment hearings have been going on now for months. Um, and um, it keeps getting more egregious and more egregious. And so maybe a month or a month and a half ago um after a hearing um I I I talked to a close
31:48 friend of mine who also is is a lawyer. He advises me personally and told him what's going on and I said, you know, I I think I need to just bow out of this. Um it's going on and on and on. I I don't see an end. I've devoted I've already devoted quite a bit of time and mental energy to this. And even if in the end I get appointed, all I can see is conflict, conflict, a tremendous amount of time and energy needing to be spent. And the reality of probate administration is largely I get paid the
32:23 same amount whether it whether I can whether it's a smooth probate or a highly contested one. and and my lawyers my lawyer friends said to me, "Yeah, I agree that it's time for you to bow out of that one." And so I did, right? Um and and and that that's a part of the business and that I that I'm in. You know, things can look, you know, pretty clear and easy at the beginning. Once I climb into it, um, oftentimes it it's it's much more contentious than I assessed or it it becomes more
33:00 contentious. It's sometimes it's hard to know upfront. uh and and so uh you know there but there comes a point where I I I I have to say no because I I don't have the capacity to continue essentially working for free hoping that I'll get appointed and at some point we'll get you know paid for not only the work that I do but all the time spent getting the appointment. So do you have do you have the capacity? Do you have the time and the energy to take this on? And then number three, and and this is the one I think that is in some ways
33:37 most important and it's the one we're least likely to rely on. And that is what does our gut say? Okay. Does it feel right? And I I I remember going all the way back to my first company. There were times when I would get a gut feeling about something and I would ignore the gut feeling and I would say nine times out of 10 deeply regret it. Deeply regret it. And so I think
34:16 that we have to learn to trust our gut feeling. And that's a hard thing to do, right? It can feel egotistical. Uh it can feel um uh really uncomfortable. I I can't we we we live in a society that claims to be very rational and and and a gut feeling doesn't seem to fall into the category of being rational. And and yet I I would argue that when all is said and done, our gut feeling is really the
34:51 sum of all we know uh mentally, all all we know in terms of information and sort of mentally and emotionally about a particular situation. And it all comes into in essence our gut. And if our gut is is if we have a bad feeling about it, then the answer should be no. And we have to learn to trust our gut. So you might boil this down into uh something called the hell yes or no principle um that was promulgated by a
35:26 fellow named Derek uh Civers. And and and basically it works just like it says. If it's not hell yes, then it's no. Now, I I don't know that I 100% uh agree with with Mr. Civers. Um I I don't know that it always has to be hell yes or heck yes, maybe I should say. Um but it should be strong. If it should if if if you're if you're getting a bad gut feeling, it's for sure it's not. Yes. And if you have a if you have kind of a you don't have if you have a neutral gut
36:02 feeling it it should be a pretty strong yes before you move forward. It may not have to be heck yes but it should be a strong yes. It there should there should be a strong alignment to your goals and you should be confident that you have the capacity uh to do it if you're not getting a strong you know gut feeling that that yes is the answer. Okay. So, uh, you know, you're you're so I I I talk with this I'm going to apply this in a different context. So, we've been talking about running a business, but um I'm going to apply this to job hunting for just a minute. So,
36:40 uh, typically when you talk to people about job hunting, they'll talk about going on interviews. And I I I have I have not liked I I I just don't like that term. interview. a job interview in some way some way implies that you know you're you're meeting with the um uh hiring manager and it's like oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh please may I have a job you know like like you know Oliver in Oliver Twist you know please sir may I have some more right he's begging for food that that's what an interview is
37:16 um we should think about such situations as a meeting to discuss us a job. And when I used to job coach or job do job hunting coaching for people coming out of the military, I would tell them that I said, "You are not going on interviews. You are having meetings to discuss a job." And when you're talking to the hiring manager, you your perspective should be to ask questions that will allow you to say yes
37:55 to a job offer if you get one. Okay, that should be the perspective, right? If you don't have a reason to say yes to a job offer, then you probably shouldn't say yes to a job offer. You know, if your gut feeling isn't like I'm I want this job, you probably shouldn't take that job. It's probably not going to work out. And and this this is a big problem among veterans where um I think I don't remember the figures exactly anymore, but 50 or 60% of veterans leave their
38:31 first post-military job within the first year or two of getting out of the military. It's a very very high percentage. And part of the problem is is they feel very uh um under pressure to get a job, any kind of job, because they're leaving the military and and they're losing that that security of having a paycheck. Well, that's all good and well, but if you say yes to the wrong job, you're not going to be getting anywhere and and you're going to be frustrated. it's going to negatively
39:06 impact your overall transition to civilian life, etc., etc. So, we're when when we're in a a perspective business situation, I think the same thing applies in the sense that we're looking for reasons to say yes. If we don't have reasons to say yes, then probably the correct answer is no. All right? and and um it's a hard discipline uh you know really to to to stick with. So um you know um the so I've got a sorry
39:44 I'm looking at my notes here for a minute. I see I've got a couple more notes on this uh this idea of Derek Civers about hell yes or no. So he basically the idea is if you have um if you're offered an opportunity client, a project, a meeting, a partnership, whatever. Okay. Um if your immediate inter if your immediate reaction um isn't uh enthusiastic or excited, okay, then you should probably decline. You'd say no. Right? That that's his philosophy. So um the ideas is what it
40:19 helps cut out the sort the the the sort of things and this is what we want to do in general in our business life. We want to cut out taking on projects where it's kind of like okay I guess I'll do it or um yeah maybe you know um we want to we want to cut those cut those out. Okay. So what we want to do is work to have a screening system, if you will, for projects so we can focus on what truly matters where we have room for the the
40:54 better opportunities. Okay? While we protect our time, energy, and integrity, right? So, and this is why I talk about saying no for building wealth and keeping sanity. Okay? So it's all good and well to uh you know have a successful business but if you're getting an ulcer your family life is is falling apart uh you know what has been the price of that success right and so the ability to say no be looms very large if we want to have an overall uh
41:32 worthwhile life. Okay. All right. So assuming then that we're going to develop the ability to say no, right? So part of that is there are ways of saying no and there are ways of saying no. Okay? So to to you know if someone offers you an opportunity say are you kidding? I wouldn't work with you if you were the last potential client on earth. Okay. Pro not the way not the right way to say no. Okay. there's there's no reason to uh you know insult people uh
42:08 merely because you you know you're not interested in in a particular proposal. Okay. On the other hand, I don't think we should lie. So, you know, no, no, no. I'm I'm too busy when you're not. I don't think that's the right thing to do to do either, right? Because there's an integrity issue there, right? What happens if the next day someone comes to you with a proposal for a project to which you say yes and it just so happens that the person to whom you said yes and
42:43 the person the previous day to whom you said no talk right and the guy the guy you said no to says uh well gosh he told me yesterday he didn't have time now he's saying yes to you the next day that doesn't sound right I mean I I don't think you're going to get good service from him. Okay. So, you can say, "Oh, that's very remote. That will never happen." Well, maybe, maybe not, though. You'd be surprised. Uh, six degrees of separation, if you know what that means, right? So, I think when we say no, we want to say no with integrity. So, uh,
43:19 for a prospective client, for example, okay, I think here's here's a good phrase to use. I appreciate the opportunity, but I don't think I'm the best fit for what you need. I'd rather point you to someone who is okay. So, you're not you're not you're saying no, but you're saying no in a way that still helps the person potentially get their needs met. Okay, so I'll give you an example. Uh this is going back maybe about three months ago now, maybe a little bit more. Uh someone contacted me about being a trustee on a trust in that
43:56 was cited in Illinois. And I've looked at the rules in Illinois for doing what I do. They're not they're not 100% clear to me. Uh and um and and Illinois is a a difficult regulatory climate like California, but not I mean similar level of difficulty but potentially different issues. And I I it really was a situation I I thought this isn't this is not the right situation for me. So, but I didn't say no to to the client. What I or the potential client, what I said
44:31 was, you know what, this isn't the right fit for me or or actually I turned it around. I said, I I don't think I'm the the right fit for for what you need, but let me refer you to a colleague of mine who I think would be able to handle this for you. Now, funny ending to the story. The person had also contacted my colleague. So when I when I contacted him to to make the introduction, he said, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm already talking to, you know, such and such." I'm like, "Great." I said, "Just so you know, you know, she contacted me
45:06 and and I told her I wasn't I didn't think I was the right fit and I I suggested you, so I just want to let you know about that." He's like, "Hey, I appreciate it." Right? So, I don't know. I I never followed up with him honestly to see if he got it, but you know, uh presumably it would help him to have someone who's in his profession say, you know, he's the right person for this. So, by saying no to something that it was not a right yes for me, I I was able to help still help the person out and help out a colleague of mine at least potentially. Right? So, there's there's
45:42 some relationship building going on there. even though I said no. Okay, so that that's one way to hand that's a way to handle things. Uh well, okay, so if it's a collaboration or a partnership, uh so here's here's a phrase you might use. This sounds exciting, but it's not aligned with our current focus. Uh let's keep the door open for the future. Okay, it's a it's a polite way uh again of saying no, but uh you know maybe at a different time or or with with you know a different project. Okay. And that's
46:17 that's legitimate, right? Um so uh again this is going back this is going back to January, right? Because it was it yeah it was it was during during the fires here in LA. uh somebody contacted me about a project um that he was considering taking on and uh he he you know he asked me if I was uh interested in working on it with him and so I said well you know tell me a little bit tell me tell me about it and he did and I said you know uh this I
46:53 don't think this is really you know in line with with what I do and with you know the kind of skills I bring to the table you know if If if you have a couple of questions that that you think I can answer that will help you with it, I'm I'm happy to do that, you know, a as a professional courtesy. Uh but but I don't as a collaboration, I I don't think this is uh one for us to work on. Maybe there'll be something else down the road. Okay. Um and and by the way, that was the that was the second time um you know, he had brought me something. Now, the first time he brought me something, we went a little bit deeper on it. um it
47:30 didn't it didn't work out for whatever reason. Um so, you know, um presumably, you know, if he has something else, you know, he'll he'll he'll run it by me. Um and and won't be, you know, turned off by the fact that I told him no on this more recent one. Okay. So, that's another way to do it. All right. Um so, then here's one that can work in kind of any situation. So I need to protect my bandwidth for the commitments I've already made. I wouldn't be able to give this what it deserves. Right? So, this is essentially
48:06 saying to the potential customer or partner, collaborator, no, but I'm I'm saying no for your benefit because you you're relying on you'd be relying on me and I don't think I'd be able to fulfill your expectations. Okay. Um, and again, you know, we're we're we're we're taking what we want to do is is take the responsibility on ourselves for saying no. We don't want to blame the other person, if you will, for saying, you know, that that we're not going to say
48:41 yes. Uh, and and and at the same time, it leaves the door open for future engagement. That's really the goal. Okay? So uh it keeps our integrity intact but it also keeps us sane and able to build our business most effectively. Okay. So uh look we want to be we want to be direct. We want to be we want to treat the person decently. Okay. And we want to be brief. So there's there's no reason to make a long elaborate statement of no. Just you know a sentence or two should suffice. and
49:19 and you know kind of move on move on with your day. All right. So, um what happens after you say no? Well, candidly, it it depends on the person to whom you said no. Now, some people, no matter how nicely and politely uh you say no, they're going to resent it. Okay? They're going to, as my dad used to say, take umbrage. Now, here's my question. If somebody gets mad at you
49:55 because you turned them down, is that someone you would have wanted to work with? Now, I know the answer for me. For me, the answer is no. I you know if someone is if someone can't hear the word no I don't want to work with them because at some point in that project in that relationship almost for sure I'm going to have to say to them no to some part of the project and if they're going to get mad at that point what's going to happen is the whole project going to blow up now because I had to tell them no and now
50:30 I've spent all this time effort money whatever it is okay So if the person isn't um isn't res uh essentially respectful about receiving the no, you you know that you've just dodged a bullet. Okay. By the way, this is true in personal life as well. Okay. Uh, you know, I was I was uh um I was introduced to uh a woman uh this is going back probably about six, seven months ago. The first time this
51:06 has happened since uh you know my marriage broke up. Uh we had a a very nice first phone call, but afterwards kind of thinking about it, I realized this is not the right situation for me. And so I I got back to her after a little while and said, "You know what? this I'm this I'm not in the right place to be getting involved with someone and so you know I'm I'm I'm I'm you know I've got this on my plate and this on my plate and this on my plate. So um you know but thank you thank you for you know a nice phone call. Um and I got a
51:41 kind of nasty response to that. Okay. And when I and and when I saw that I thought okay really dodged a bullet there, right? Um, look, you know, sometimes we have to say no. Um, and and uh I'm not going to claim that I've always been gracious when people said no to me. Uh but you know it depends on the context but uh you know um if the you know hopefully when you say no okay the person will you know respect the fact that that you said
52:16 no um that you were thoughtful about it and and you know kind of you know no hard feelings. Okay. Um, so, um, I've I've shared with you, um, a couple of stories. Now, by the way, in both of the stories that I shared with you, both of the Julies, I'm pretty sure they resented my eventually saying no. Probably, you know, I'm pro I'm relatively sure they probably said nasty things about me. And that's part of the problem with having to say with having said yes when I should have said
52:52 no. um that will almost always lead to a negative outcome, right? If I had si given them a thoughtful no from the beginning, I pro I obviously I would have saved myself a lot of aggravation etc. Um but also um you know probably could have saved myself you know two people who you know think think that I you know am terrible because you know essentially I dumped them right. So, um, you know, uh, I hopefully, you know, you'll you'll take these examples on
53:28 board. You probably have examples from your own life, especially if you've if you've dated and you've had to break up with somebody, right? Never a comfortable thing, right? And and the reality is, um, as I just mentioned a minute or two ago, kind of it works the same way in in dating and and and business uh, you know, commitments in some ways work the same, right? better to give a thoughtful no upfront um rather than sort of bump along and then you know people get involved in all these kind of things and then um and then you know you have to break it off.
54:05 So this this is as I said at the beginning of the show a crucial business skill learning to say no to build wealth and save your sanity. So, um, I'll put a couple of ex excerpts from my my my, uh, what I what I've said from my remarks in the show notes if you want to have them and hopefully this will help you going forward. So, thank you very much for joining me today, my live viewers. Lammond, good to see you again, my friend. And let's see, uh, that's it for this week in terms of shows. Next week
54:42 on Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show Trust and Estates Weekly. My guest is Kelly Wei and she's going to be talking about estate planning for intellectual property. Given how much larger uh intellectual property looms as assets in a lot of people's estates, I think there's a very important discussion. I'm looking forward to having it with Kelly and so I hope you'll tune in on uh Tuesday at
55:17 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show business lessons from the military. I'm going to be talking about the battle of PaloAlto and we're going to be deriving some in some uh lessons from that. And then a week from today uh I'll be back for the next edition of people making money again at 10:00 a.m. Wednesday. And then uh next week it also on Thursday is my every other show Jiggers's Place. We'll sit back at 5:00 p.m. Pacific
55:52 time, have a cocktail, and we're going to talk about the concept of duty. What What do we have to do? What is our duty? And I think this is a particularly important topic for men to examine. I think we are uh we are a duty centric sex if you will. Um not that women don't have duties, they do. But I think to be a good man uh means being very focused on your duty. And so we
56:27 we're going to talk about that. A heavy subject that requires a cocktail beforehand. So, thanks again for joining me uh and wishing you a wonderful rest of the day and week and signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell.