0:00 business lessons from the military I'm your host Kevin bemel and we are here every Tuesday at 10: a.m. Pacific time to talk about business um sorry military Doctrine um military history the practices of great military leaders and see what lessons we can distill from them in order to apply them to our business lives improve uh our improve our success in our professions in in the companies we run Etc so um earlier this morning um I
0:37 was in a meeting of a a group uh to which I belong it's a a group of military veterans and um um was telling them a little bit about the show and they really love the idea because there is so much that we learn in the military um that can be applied to the civilian world and yet somehow it does seem to get out there a lot of the uh podcasts um done by veterans are about how to help veterans they're um you know sort of inward-looking and um Our intention
1:14 is to be outward looking to um you know create some connections between um military veterans and and even people still in in the in the armed forces and uh our our fellow citizens in the civilian world so my topic for today is speak truth to power now um this this the idea for this stemmed from um um an incident early in my career um when I was uh stationed to
1:49 in okanawa Japan so um I I I as probably most of you know was a a chaplain in the US Navy and the Navy provides chaplain um both to to the Navy and the Marine Corps um as as well as uh the merch Marine Academy and and the Coast Guard and um I was um I was also at at that time in addition to just being a a chapel chaplain um I was uh the brig chaplain the brig Brig is the Navy and Marine
2:25 Corp term for jail and as as part of my work as the brig chaplain I looked for ways to make the time that these it was almost all young men in the brig um were spending make it more um uh beneficial for them and so one of the things I was looking at doing was creating a college program um so that while they were in the brig they could take some classes that um would give them credit toward earning a an AA or even even a ba um
3:02 bachelor's degree after they um uh got out of the brigand or the Marine Corps and uh I was um so in in the in the um military It's Not Unusual to have a situation where um you you have what are what are called uh what are two chains of command so a chain of command is is is to whom you report so um in in in the uh chaplain Corps we oftentimes have an operational chain of command and a separate
3:39 administrative change of chain of command so and that was the case in okanawa our operational chain of command uh started with the chief of chaplain I'm I'm sorry not the chief of chaplain the um the base chaplain um for um Marine Corps bases uh um uh for for Marine Corp B medley D Butler um and it and it kind of worked its way down through the the deputy based chaplain and then in my case uh to me um our administrative uh and that was all the operational chain of command was about the work that we did the conducting of
4:15 services the visiting of workspaces the um providing Counseling Services um helping with various types of celebrations Etc our administrative chain of command worked through what was called Headquarters and services Battalion uh and this this the administrative side dealt with things like our pay um insurance benefits we might get um and and and all of the sort of routine um functions of of military life
4:51 that don't involve the actual work that you do and our the in in okanawa the headquarters and services battalion is headed up by a a full bird colonel and um I'm not going to mention his name Al although I I I do highly esteem this individual and the reason I'm not going to mention his name is is I I can't remember it now but in any event um when when I came up with this program to do um to do college credit for the brig I I
5:26 got a call from the uh quarters and services Battalion Commander's office saying he wanted to meet with me now this was pretty unusual um because in general there was there's no there was no reason for me to you know to meet with the colonel of the Battalion um uh you know the routine administrative things that I needed done or that had to be done on my behalf certainly were not you know handled by him by any stretch of the imagination
6:01 and so um you know previous to that the only time I had had um an interaction with him was when I was asked to go with uh one of his uh senior enlisted Marines to make what's called a KO call it was to notify uh uh the wife of a marine that that he had been killed so you know I showed up at his office and to my surprise he was um very upset about plans that I was making with the brig officer that's the officer in charge of the brig um to create this college uh
6:39 training program or this college class program and his his essential argument was that these marines had disgraced the Marines in the brig had disgraced the Marine Corps they had um um you know misbehaved to say it to you know to put it lightly and that they you know they weren't there to be entertained or coddled rather they should be um you know treated as harshly as possible within the you know the strictures of the uniform code of military Justice um and and be given as
7:15 little consideration is possible um and so certainly advancing their educational goals um was was not was not something that he thought was appropriate um and we hadn't had a lot of interaction um a a at at that point um I like I said I had um uh dealt with him on the KO call um I had I had made a what's what's known as a courtesy call on him when he first came to the Battalion which kind of surprised him because it was a a practice that uh wasn't really done any longer um and uh
7:53 you know just as an aside it was it was it was something that my father and mother used to tell me about because when my dad was in the military back in the 50s and 60s making courtesy calls on on a new commanding officer was you know der riger it's what you did as as a junior officer especially and so I thought well there's there was a new colonel in charge of the Battalion and so it was my duty to to go and present myself to him and and to in essence get his instructions and and so I made an appointment to see him and when I walked into his office he said so why are you
8:28 here chaplain and I saidwell sir it's it's my obligation to pay a duty Call on you or a courtesy call and and so I'm I'm I'm here to do that and and to get your perspective on what you want to see done by the chaplain within your command and uh and and other than that I'm I'm I'm here to listen so you know I I I think that you know he saw me as as someone who respected military tradition who you know wanted to Accord him respect um but but nonetheless you know a little bit quirky there right and and and so but it
9:05 it was it was an interesting meeting and and and you know as I reflect back on that time I was I was very glad um that I did that given how things turned out so now here I am you know a number of months later in his office and he's basically calling me to the carpet for um you know wanting to establish this program now um I didn't say this to him but um UNT for him he did not have the authority to prevent me from starting that program and and the reality was he the brig officer was not in his chain of command and uh um well I don't want to
9:43 say that the brig officer had the authority to override decisions regarding what happened at the brig um and and he liked the program he likeed the idea of the program because it gave these these um detainees and and prisoners um something to do so they wouldn't get up you know get into mischief and so the the program was instituted but nonetheless um when a Marine Corp Colonel expresses um distaste for a program um you know you listen and and I certainly did listen I heard him out and then I I um I said to
10:20 him the following and and that is um you know with due respect sir um I I have a different perspective and and and perhaps um this is is is something that you may not have considered and I said when these young marines get out of the brig most of them are also going to be kicked out of the Marine Corps that typically was the case and I said so they're going to go back to this the civilian world and they were um and I said well we may know about their record of
10:57 spending time in the brg and and we I I certainly join you in in in your condemnation of the behavior that that they um did that warranted brg time our fellow citizens back in the States are just going to see them as you know members of the Marine Corps or former members of the Marine Corps that's all they're going to see them as and so if we set them up for failure what we're setting them up for is to give a black eye to the Marine Corps on the other hand if we set them up for Success
11:34 despite the time they spent in the brig then we are setting them up to at least not blacken the eye of the Marine Corps if if not you know put it in a in a good light with respect to our other citizens and I think so I said I think for for that reason alone it makes sense to um help these marines make some kind of of decent transition out of the Marine Corps and back into civilian life and um you know he he he argued the point um and and you
12:11 know we we left essentially agreeing to disagree um I'm I'm sure he knew that the program was instituted I'm sure he also knew that you know I mean he didn't order me not to do it he he didn't have the authority to do that um because he was not in my operational chain of command but he but he spoke his peace and I spoke mine respectfully um and and and here's the upshot of of of the story so um about a year and a half later my time in OK was up I was getting ready to uh my family and I were getting ready to to leave the island and come back to the
12:46 United States for our next job in California and um as was traditional um I was um um being given what's called an end of tour award now I jokingly call it a go gold star for showing up every day but but in in point of fact in this particular case and you know sometimes uh you know having worked you know 80 plus hours a week week after week I think I really did earn that award um and um and and so they have what's called a formation which is when um basically all of your colleagues stand
13:22 in ranks like you see you know in the movies and you're called front and center and and you're given the award and and the award is read so there's there's a write up that's done on the certificate for the award that explains why you're you're being given this award and to my surprise because this hadn't happened before for a chaplain this Colonel um showed up to give me the award um and and you know I Chap and bmel front and center I come marching up I standard attention and you know he the
13:59 citation is read he the the presenter doesn't read the citation someone else does um in fact my mentor read it and then you know he he clipped the award onto my uniform and then um he he he said I think probably the highest praise I've ever I ever received in the military and that was that um that Not only was I um a good chaplain but I was also a good officer because I was willing to speak truth to power and that
14:35 he he deeply respected that even if he disagreed with what I was saying and um I found out later that in fact um he had specifically asked to be able to present the award to me because he wanted to to make that remark and I will say parent synthetically I I um there was a point in time when I I did serve um on his staff um for for a short time and and so I was at his staff
15:10 meetings and it it was it was interesting to watch him interact with the other mostly Junior officers on his staff the ones that sort of knuckled under to him um you could see there was a certain lack of respect on his part for them he he didn't want people to he didn't want you know yes men around he wanted people who would you know speak their minds respectfully um so that then he could have the best uh advice the best information for making the decisions that he needed to make and so
15:45 in talking to my mentor about the whole situation afterwards um when he told me that the colonel had specifically asked to be to be able to present the award to me I I will tell you that um as I said it was the most memorable thing that Commendation that I received while I was in the military and so the reason I bring this story up is is not to say oh what a great guy Kevin is I mean believe me I I certainly I have my faults I made my mistakes in the military as as do everybody I I think that it's it's a
16:23 difficult um thing to do to um candidly speak our minds to someone who has authority over us now you know in point of fact he couldn't literally have fired me although he certainly could have um complained to the base chaplain about me if he thought I was disrespectful or if I had um um in some way um you know transgressed my position and and that would that could very well have uh meant that um I would get a a negative Fitness
16:59 report and and in fact my my career would have essentially been over at that point um and so but but you know he he he did not and and I I think there's a couple reasons why um and one of them is something we can control and another is something that we we really can't control so what we can control is the way that we present um potentially difficult information to to a superior so to give another small
17:34 example when I was assigned to the Carrier air to to um carrier airwing 14 KAG 14 um my uh my commanding officer there was a Navy captain and uh we were fortunate to have a good good relationship based on mutual respect um nonetheless there were times when I felt uh that I needed to say things to him that I wasn't exactly sure he wanted to hear or would hear and and so the way I would serve it up in his case was I would come in his office or I would come to the door of his office knock and wait
18:09 to be acknowledged and he and and I could usually tell his mood because if he said yes Rabbi I knew he was you know in essence glad to see me and if he said what can I do for you chaplain it meant he was busy and and uh you know and and I I I might be you know Annoying him but yeah I would always say the same thing sir there's something I'd like to speak with you about and if if uh now is is not a good time if you if it wouldn't you know if you wouldn't mind letting me know um when it would be a better time I'd be happy to come back and almost always he would motion me in and and I would um um you
18:44 know say is it all right for me to close the door sir um because when I was going to have a difficult conversation with a with with my Superior I certainly didn't want people walking by in the passageway and overhearing anything so he and he would always say yes so so you know it's within our control first of all to um you know choose the place and the time um that that we um speak truth to power um and and to do so as wisely as possible um and then the second thing is um I would always start out when when I
19:19 had something that I thought might be you know difficult for him to hear I would always start it out the same way I'd say Sir there's something I'd like to speak with you about and may be out of line in doing so and if so I I I I ask you sir to please turn me around kick me on the backside out of your office um and he would always you know the first time I said it he chuckled you know and and and after a few times you know he recognized that this was my way of acknowledging to him that um what I was about to say could be um interpreted as being disrespectful but it was not
19:54 meant um with with disrespect um that in fact um I I was doing this um because I was concerned about him both as as a leader and and an officer and and also as a human being and and so then I would kind of lay it on him you know and and to his credit um you know he listened with an open mind um always didn't always agree with me which is fine you know um I was a big boy then I'm a big boy now people don't have to agree with me then we can you know we can disagree I hopefully will disagree respectfully and that was always the case and so this
20:31 this the second part of the first thing where we have control is we also have control about how we present things to people so you know there there there's been been this tendency over the last um I think couple of decades at least to to speak the truth as if merely saying something that's true means that people have to listen to it and I would argue that that that is uh Incorrect and and and manifestly unwise so um we may be saying something that's perfectly true but if we say it in a way that people um that offends
21:07 people or that um pushes them away from us then we are unlikely they're unlikely to really hear what we want what we're saying and to hear it in the in in a in a spirit of um seeking to you know gain Mutual benefit so so that's that's something we control and the other the other part of of how we present ideas or or comments uh even criticism to people is to present it in a way where they see that they have a compelling reason in order to listen to what we're
21:45 saying so going back to the example of of the um Marine Corps Colonel I could have I could have Focus purely on the benefit for these marines but clearly he was he was not going to hear that it was absolutely true it was for their benefit it was also it would also benefit the um the uh Brig officer and the guards at the bridg because it would make it EAS their jobs easier because the the prisoners would have something productive to engage them and and that
22:20 that that's a good thing and and he might have been open to to hearing that um but knowing him knowing a little bit about him and and um and and and Marines in general um have a very deep and abiding affection for the Marine Corps itself um how the Marine Corps was viewed U was was of importance to him and it turned out I I would say great importance to him and so by approaching him from a the standpoint of how
22:56 something he cared about would benefit I.E how the Marine Corps in total would benefit I think that helped him he um better where I was coming from and and that even if he in the end didn't agree with what I was recommending nonetheless he could appreciate what my motives were and that you know my that that our our motives were aligned even if our methods were not and and I think that that's an important thing to recognize so you know
23:33 we in in point of fact although like I said he did not agree with with what he viewed as coddling these prisoners we he certainly agreed with maintaining the um the the um image of the Marine Corps among our fellow citizens and and so he saw that that like I said in the bigger picture we were aligned and and so and so that my you know doing this um was was at least you know in part um something he could Embrace um at at least
24:10 philosophically um and and I and so um you could say well God you know that's sales that's diplomacy yeah yeah it is for sure it is um and if we are going to speak truth to power then I think we should do so intelligently and we should show them that that you know they have a stake in listening to what we have to say with an open mind and hopefully agreeing to what we're saying or agreeing to what we're recommending so all of those are potentially within our ability to to impact to create the
24:47 scenario the time the place to present it in a way that's most likely to be heard now the the part that we don't have control over is whether person we're speaking to um has the leadership qualities and character that will keep them open-minded no matter how we present it so look there are some people who you can just fire the truth at them and and and they have an open mind and they will listen to it even if they feel you know
25:23 potentially personally attacked by it so my friend Michael um is is is is like that um while I don't fire things at him like that I know from conversations we've had that even when people say things to him that he that that you know in a in a rude way um he does his best to parse through it and and nonetheless entertain what he thinks is the point that the person is trying to make and it's it's a tremendous ability on his part and and not one frankly that I think a lot of us have I I will admit
26:00 that if if someone you know Fires at me with the 16inch guns as I call them I I I really struggle to overcome um the feeling that I've been attacked you know and and really be able to listen to what they have to say um but and and so um and there are some people who they are so egocentric they they don't care even if you are explaining something and showing that it's it's to their benefit to listen they will not because it's their way or the highway and in that case
26:37 there there isn't anything we can do right and and and by the way I've had both types of I've dealt with both types of leaders um I I will say in the Marine Corps most of the leaders were the open-minded kind um generally speaking principled um that is what part of that is part of the Marine Corps ethos um but the worst officers I dealt with one was a a Navy Captain and the other was a Navy Admiral both of them extraordinarily close-minded very very full of themselves and they were not at
27:15 all open to hearing something um that that differed with their view um they they they preferred to pontificate and if you weren't um if you didn't go along with what they were pontificating then you were a dirt bag you were you know all those horrible things um and in one case with the Admiral I was nonetheless able to um navigate that situation well and and um was was was lauded by my colleagues fortunately because I wasn't the only one who saw that this this Admiral really was was was you know
27:52 undeserving of his star um and with the case of the Navy Captain uh was frankly defeated by him um because he had enough he had enough synop fants around him that uh you know he was able to insulate himself um and and um you know um May his name live in infamy as we say so you know I I think there's essentially a onetoone correlation in bringing this into our civilian lives so there are people in civilian in bu in our business lives our professional lives they are they are open to criticism they are open
28:28 to our recommendations our thoughts they'll they'll listen to us um and and and and we may have to present it somewhat diplomatically in order to you know help them keep an open mind um and if we we choose our our place and time carefully then indeed um you know we can create that that situation where we can speak truth to power with you know little if any risk to to our you know careers our professional advancement our business um and and and hopefully those are the kind of people that we get to work with
29:05 now if we have to work with someone who is not open hopefully we figure that out pretty quickly without um you know damage to our our career prospects um I.E you know making a recommendation to them that they spurn and and take offense at because you know we've had the tarity to you know challenge their omnipotence um and and you know what do we do in that case where we have this this you know egotistical Superior um who who does not want truth spoken to him um and you know
29:40 quite to the contrary he he wants to be surrounded by yes men and I you know look I I I think there's there's really only two choices right we can tolerate the person and just recognize that they they don't want us to do our best work for them um and unfortunately they will well not Unfortunately they will suffer for that unfortunately we will too because we can't do our best work um openly and and above board and and and and you know make the best effort on behalf of our team um and the other thing we can do is you know find some
30:16 hopefully find someone else to work for maybe we can get some sort of lateral or upward move in our organization to get out from under that person um in into you know to get under the supervision of someone who who is open to our ideas or you know leave the company and find a find a position somewhere else now if it's our own business it really is incumbent on us to listen and to create the kind of atmosphere where our our people our staff our team members will speak truth to us okay and that is critical I I I
30:55 would say that it is if not the most important aspect of good leadership it is certainly among the very top so if if we put it up there with acting with Integrity um and and excuse me um I think those are you know probably the the the two most important qualities in a leader that we can have because people want to follow someone who acts with Integrity but they also want to follow someone who they feel um has respect for them and part of respecting people is
31:30 allowing them to speak truth to to power which means speaking truth to their superiors now do we have to suffer um their rudeness or or or or disrespect on their part no um I don't think we we we have to or should in fact um and if someone um you know treats us rudely then I think you know calmly um we need to help help them redirect how they how they behave and explain to them that while you appreciate them you know
32:05 bringing this um idea to your attention or bringing this matter to your attention you would appreciate it if in the future they handled themselves in a more respectful way um and and to say it you know just that calmly so you know again um in the civilian World um you know where we don't have as formal chains of command nonetheless it works very much the way it works in the military and so you know we have to gauge is this is our supervisor our Superior someone who is you know is is
32:42 open to hearing the truth and if not then what are we going to to do about it are we going to um you know sort of suffer Our Fate in silence um with the attendant um probably attenuation of our career Prospect or are we going to look for some way around this impediment so that we can go on to um greater success um with with you know working with someone who um has an appreciation for what we bring to the table so speaking truth to power I think it's a skill we need to develop and and
33:19 and it's it's you know constantly challenged and and of course the higher up we go in the hierarchy um it it should become easier for us to do this but but oftentimes doesn't um ego is part of what drives people to succeed and oftentimes the most senior people in an organization have the biggest Egos and and and oftentimes um you know look it's fine to have a big ego as long as it is um married to humility so that the ego doesn't get in the way of doing what's right and and and and being open
33:55 to um suggestions and criticism um but unfortunately that is um sometimes not the case and so then we need to deal with it appropriately so I thank you very much for joining me today hope would love to hear your comments on this topic um maybe uh share an experience you've had where you were successful or unsuccessful in uh speaking truth to power um these these you know anecdotes I think can be valuable as as each of us
34:30 decide how we will um use this particular tool in our toolbox so um you can post on social media the links will be in the show notes after this episode posts or if if it's something that you don't want public you can always send me an email my email address is in the show show notes as well and um I I would would love to hear your thoughts so so for um that's the show for today tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show um people making money and our
35:05 topic is networking to get a job so um there was an article in the weekend edition of The Wall Street Journal and it magically had discovered that marketing that networking is back as the way to get a job I you know uh sometimes I am uh astonished by the foolishness of of what I read in in what is after all um one of the top newspapers in in the world um and and the Wall Street Journal has the largest circulation of any newspaper in the United States and so I do want to talk about that talk about
35:42 some of the issues that that are raised in the article um and and and you know dig into this uh this topic of you know what what really is is the way to uh to to find a job so please join me tomorrow again 10: a.m. Pacific time and then next week on Monday at 10: a.m. is my show uh trust and Estates weekly and then a week from today also at 10: a.m. all Pacific time is the next edition of business lessons from the military so uh one last thing before I go if you're not a subscriber to the show um please do
36:18 consider doing so you can just click on the Subscribe U button right right below um the video on YouTube and that way you'll get notified every time a new uh a new show posts or a new uh feed you know goes live and you'll you'll never miss another episode um and uh so again thank you for joining me and hopefully hoping to see you tomorrow and signing off as I always do Marie you are my bell all the