0:00 Who are you? [music] And where are you going? [music] What do you want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemel, and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about uh probate [snorts] and trust administration, estate planning, and all of the attendant uh subjects related there, too. And today, I'm I'm very pleased to
0:38 welcome back my uh good friend and colleague, Bill Gross. Um, Bill Gross is um probably the top real estate agent involved in probate uh certainly here in California, perhaps uh in in the entire country. So, uh I I have never met any real estate agent who knows more about the probate business than Bill does. uh and his his knowledge extends far beyond just the real estate part of of probate and and uh and Bill probably tell us u
1:15 you know that some of that'll come out as as we uh we we do our discussion. So So Bill, thanks so much for uh being a guest on Trust in Estates Weekly.
1:24 >> Thanks for having me again. It's always a pleasure to chat with you about uh real estate and probate. My favorite topics.
1:29 >> Yeah. So, it's probably sounds a little bit deja vuish because uh Bill does a weekly show that's actually somewhat of the model for this show called Probate Weekly. And uh and I'll plug this a couple of times, but uh you can see Bill's uh show on he has a YouTube channel and and I uh encourage you to check out Probate Weekly um because uh a lot of great uh guests and information on that channel as well.
2:00 >> Thanks. So, Bill, first of all, take a minute and and talk about I mean, like me, you've you've been in a kind of a number of areas in real estate and related fields over the years. What drew you to probate?
2:20 >> You know, it was the first time I really spent some time thinking about what I wanted to do in my career. I was 60 years old. I had spent um a good part in residential real estate and and you know mistakenly got involved in management and coaching and recruiting and I say that because I'm really an entrepreneur at heart and um is very seductive. I think my generation assumes you know management is a more prestigious position than sales and in reality in real estate you have the opportunity to build your own business and um have so much more flexibility and you know choose the direction you want to go. So at 60 I found myself
2:56 relaunching and I I I could have retired but very modestly and didn't really want to. Um and I I really spent some time I spent really literally 30 days um exploring planning uh researching and I was really trying to find the intersection of three things which was one what was I good at and I've always been interested in law. I'm a I'm a good learner. I I feel like I write well. Those are probably my strengths. Uh, second, um, I I think that, uh, I always enjoyed going to court. My father was an attorney. I enjoyed putting on a Brooks Brother suit and tie and going to, uh,
3:32 Stanley Moss Courthouse, which was only half our way. It was convenient for me to go there. And then there in my research, I realized there was a gap between what the market was offering um, clients and what clients needed. And I discovered about 90% of clients love their attorney when they hire them in a probate administration case. And after 90 days, 90% hate them because the mismatch between their expectations and the delivery. That seemed like an opportunity to kind of fit that gap and help the attorneys be more effective as well as help the clients navigate through the process. So I started that about six years ago. I used to court every day. I also uh went in to see
4:09 court sales every day because I had the calendar. I could pick them. And so I would see two or three sales a day whereas a normal judge might see one a week. And within a year, I probably seen more court confirmed sales in the county than any judge or attorney or realtor. And so I use that as my uh launching pad for my expertise in that particular niche.
4:28 >> So I want to talk about the court related procedures in a moment, but but start out talk more broadly. How is being involved in probate real estate different than being just, you know, why can't I just call up my regular real estate agent, right?
4:47 >> Maybe I have an existing relationship, you know, and they they helped me, you know, find my house or find me a house or sell me a house.
4:56 >> Why, you know, why shouldn't I use them?
5:00 >> Right. Well, again, I think number one is for um clients for for petitioners, administrators, executives. I don't think that most attorneys, you know, they might be at the top 1%, but if you take, you know, uh all the cases they file in LA County, about 90% of them are being filed by an attorney who's done one or less in the last 12 months. So, you can't be great at anything if you do one a year or less. And so the attorneys need somebody I think to kind of be the grease in the gears to help the customer
5:35 through the process. They don't really want to for the most part handle the soft skills not related to the law uh or the administrative work not related to the law. And so yet the customer needs help. And so I found the opportunity to fit that need number one. And then two, um, where there's objections and confrontation and litigation, um, you know, a mistake by attorney can be very costly. And I just found so many attorneys did not really know, um, the the specific procedures to get home sold. They had some ideas and they would throw out some, you know, but they didn't have the vendors. They didn't
6:11 really know the the process down well. And, you know, and and most of them had, you know, parallegals. Well, I'm way better than a parallegal on this one narrow niche of law of selling homes in LA County particular or California with court confirmation. So, there was an opportunity to present itself both to service attorneys and service customers that by being really f hyperfocused um I was able to create value for them and in any business I really believe that if you create value for customers the compensation just kind of flows naturally as a result of that. So, that was my focus.
6:42 >> Yeah. So talk to us then about how is the the actual process different. Right? So I'm a I'm a lawyer. I'm selling my own house, right? I call it my my agent and you know the agent does whatever. Um but this is a different process. So talk talk us through that process so people can understand the steps and the complexity.
7:09 >> Yeah. I mean, I think first, if you're if you're a petitioner, uh, you're getting some free help on the administration side. I'm not just the realtor, but I also can help you in the probate. For an attorney, I feel like I'm really a high skil high skilled parallegal in this niche because um, they know bits and pieces, but my experience is most of them uh, who aren't in this field regularly uh, don't really understand. I'll give you one very common misconception, which is homes that go to uh, sale for confirmation at the court. at the court need to be clear all contingencies and at that point uh anybody bidding on it has to raise the bid by 5% plus $500 and
7:46 have a a cashier's check made out for 10% of that bid. That doesn't mean the initial buyer has to buy it without contingencies and or all cash or with a deposit. The truth is depending on the the property you can buy you can have a normal buyer who puts you VA loan no money down or 3% down. At some point though, they clear contingencies and have to be able to close and that's when you file the petition. And so a lot of estates lose a lot of money because the real estate agent and or attorney don't understand that the process a court confirmation doesn't dictate the process of the sale. It can influence it. Some
8:22 properties need a a cash buyer and you need a buyer who can last through that process. But again, there's so many misconceptions and that's one of them. uh that uh another one is I think that with the change in the court so much can be done online and and in fact you you can manage the court confirmation process online. I think it's a mistake if you're trying to maximize the price for the estate. Somebody should be there somebody should be coaching the biders on how to bid more. Make it easier for them to bid more because it's easier for them to bid more. They're more likely to bid and make more money for the estate. So again, there it's a lot of little
8:57 details, but I just think in general, this is an area that if an attorney is only going to do one or two probates a year and one out of 10 have court confirmation, they may not do one but for every 10 years. So rather than spend all that time and try to learn it at the risk of making mistakes, uh I feel like I I bring in that uh expertise on the procedures and administration to help them be successful.
9:19 >> Okay. And I mean I is is the is how does how is the paperwork different for example right it because if a if if a if a sale has to go for court confirmation or may have to go for court confirmation
9:36 >> especially in a state like California where
9:39 >> I know over my career you know the the the the contract to sell a home went from I think it was two pages two two letter size pages to now I don't even know how large it is now. What is it about 15 20 legal size pages, right?
9:55 >> I tell them all the time. I don't even know because we keep adding new forms that go to the so it's like an 18page form and then you have all these other addendums and the addendums keep growing. So I don't know I think it's like 40 to 50 pages by the time we send it out for signature.
10:08 >> It's crazy. [snorts]
10:09 >> Yeah. You know in California is different in that we have and I think it's a good thing. California Association of Realtors has created an addendum for all listings that are probate and an addendum for all um purchase offers that are probate. I think it's great. I think they've done a great job as a real estate agent. I feel like it protects me. I feel like it protects my my clients as well. Of course, most real estate agents have never read the form. And so, you know, I look at that as my sword or my knife as a warrior. uh the more effective I am with my tools or my weapons, the more I can defend my client and or attack the opponent if I have to. So, we do have
10:44 these forms and you you use an interesting word may or may not require core confirmation because those are the two choices. There is no third will not require coral confirmation. That's a mistake. Uh and people make that statement and that can be dangerous because the either either it does require coral confirmation for some reason. Most commonly the state only has limited authority, not full authority and that triggers the requirement. There's other cases as well. But even if it's not required because of that reason, there are times when there's multiple let's say errors and uh in
11:21 order to close a sale without court confirmation, you need a notice of proposed action cleared by all particular parties. And there's a list of who those people are. And if one of them says, "Hey, I I object. I don't want this property to be sold to that buyer for that price. I think you're selling it too low. You're you're self-dealing. You're whatever they issue this or that." [snorts] Your only option is either get them to change their mind or go to court to get it confirmed. And so it may not be required up front and then you discover it is. And you know, I have a case in that case where we thought it didn't and then uh due an objection it became required. So,
11:56 it's one of those things where you should never say will not be required because unless you know uh you you run the risk of really hurting yourself and or your client.
12:06 >> Yeah. So, talk to us about then the the actual court confirmation process, not not just the part where where you know people are in court, but but just you mentioned a notice of proposed action. talk to us about that process so people again can can kind of wrap their start to wrap their arms around what it entails.
12:31 >> So on any probate case um you know at the end of the day to sell property you need a title insurance company to ensure title to make the buyer comfortable and the buyer's lender comfortable. So there are times where attorneys will say to me well we don't need a notice of proposed action for whatever reason the the administrators of solar is the most common case. Well, that's great if the title company will agree to that and and depending on who they are, they may or they may not. Sometimes we can just change title companies. Sometimes though, you're stuck for whatever reason with a particular title company and they have their they want, you know, two belts and three suspenders and you're stuck with their approval. But even on a
13:06 on a more standard case, if you have multiple errors and one objects and so there's some strategy involved. When do we want to do the proposed action? Some attorneys want to do it right away and get it done. Um, I I feel like once you have the buyer wave contingencies, now you know they're going to close. Uh, and and it can take 15 days if the other party doesn't respond after that time period, their lack response is considered approval. Um, but if you know they're going to approve it, get it signed and get it in the package right away. If if you have limit authority or there's objectors litigation or for whatever reason you have to have court
13:41 confirmation, it's really important the be the process begins by publicizing your intention to sell the property and you can't accept offers before the date in the publication. And so there's two parts that are really important. One is the publication has to be the right publication. usually the same one that got publication for the probate approval because the judge already approved that com that firm and that geography. And then second and I I like the company the Daily Commerce because they know those restrictions. They also will file they do more than anybody this will file it with the court on your behalf which is a
14:16 great step to save some time. But in the publication it'll say you know we'll accept offers on or be on or after you know whatever December 18th. Well, common mistake is a contract signed before that. In fact, you and I have one where the offer was dated before that, but we waited and then signed afterwards, which is the proper procedure. We just had to correct the the probate attorney that it was done properly. But it's important that you follow those dates because you get all the way to the hearing. And uh I've seen attorneys say, "Oh, it didn't really matter." And the judge goes, "Well, it matters to me." And your your petition's denied. So the the confirmation is
14:51 important. And then once you've accepted a sale and then you're ready to go to court, um, you then file the petition for court confirmation. And I don't think I've ever seen one that didn't get certain corrections from the probate attorney that serves the judge. It's just so complicated and so many of the boxes are just so counterintuitive that how you answer them is is always a question. And so there's a process where you file a petition then the probate attorney in the notes will you know identify certain problems and then the attorney has to file and reply to
15:26 the notes hope hopefully enough time for them to be reviewed before the hearing date and cleared. If not you go to the hearing with these notes outstanding and the judge is already predisposed to um continuing or denying your petition. So that process is critical and that's where I get involved as I track all my cases and I kind of bug the attorneys. I know some don't like me because I'm on them, but I much rather that be the case than to let something sit. Uh, and I've literally seen so many attorneys say, "What are probate notes? I don't even know what you're talking about." Uh, and yeah, that's Look, I'm glad to help those attorneys. I I, you know, I don't think that's the right way to practice.
16:01 And my job is to help. So again, I see these cases all the time and I look at the notes and I try to help assess what what can be cleared, what can't be cleared, how we can clear it, and then hopefully go to court and get it done. And then you show up at court um and hopefully the judge approves your petition and then says, "Uh, does anybody here want to bid more than this buyer by 5% $500?" There's a set formula. The dollar amounts in the petition and somebody shows up. Uh you want to check make sure that the cashier's check is made out to the state and then the judge just conducts an auction and somebody bids it and then uh you have to fill the form out that says
16:38 that there was bid in open court. Then your attorney has to submit an order for the judge to sign. This is another big misconception is after confirmation matri will say well I submitted the order before the hearing date. But the judge, the LA County system doesn't work that way. They're going to disregard anything before the hearing. You have to resubmit it afterwards. And so I've seen attorneys say, "Well, I submitted it, you know, two months ago." Well, that's a clue something's wrong because it takes usually, you know, a couple days, a week. Um, but if if you haven't submitted it after the court date, then you haven't really submitted it yet. And then once you have the court uh signed order, you can close escrow at that time.
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17:49 challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213264396 or visit magnumprops.com. So, we're back here at Trust and Estates Weekly with my guest Bill Gross, and we're talking about the um the complications, I guess, is the best way to put it, that attach to dealing with real estate uh that is that is in a probate and and in this particular case
18:24 is being sold. So, so, Bill, you talked about, okay, so now we we have the judge's signed order. we can close escrow. Um, talk if you would for a minute because it's it's it's not as if there's a whole new transaction created by the court confirmation process. And I I think that people also might find that aspect confusing. So
18:55 >> again, talk us through that so people can understand what's what's really going on.
19:01 >> Well, if the court confirms the sale, meaning that in your you know, when you go to court, you have the order and you're saying, "We sold the house to Joe and Mary for a million dollars and the court agrees and the nobody over bids it, then you simply wait for the order and and close the escrow as is. However, if somebody else comes in over bids, so imagine a property is being sold for a million and somebody else walks in and says, "Well, I'm willing to pay 105,000, I'm sorry, one uh, million50, 500, 5% plus 500 more and here's a cashier's check made out the state of whatever uh,
19:36 for 10% of that and there's a bid and then that over bidder wins." Then it's interesting uh you know it it is a very interesting process because by default there's no contract now other than in court you sign this thing that says you know it's overbidden court here's the price here's the property and you reference the petition and the buyer has that you don't have a California association of realtors um contract now some estates try to backdoor it and say the winning bid is subject to all the same terms that may or may not be legitimate that are legal. I'm not the
20:11 attorney or the judge to make that assessment. But absent that, and I say 90% of the time, most people don't think about it, the over the only contract you have is I'm Joe Smith. I bid this amount. This is the property signed by the other party and by the judge, and then you take that to escrow and open escrow and close. That is a whole new transaction in that sense. And I will say that one of the mistakes I've seen listing agents make is insist on a new contract because in some regards you might be giving that bidder rights they don't otherwise have like a final walkthrough for example is one that caused a problem I was representing the buyer and the buyer wanted to delay the
20:47 close and we're in the rights because the new contract the listing agent I think unfortunately forced on us were to their detriment. And so it's one of those things where you have to think about do we want to use a contract or not? Uh and who is the escro provider? Are they truly independent or are they going to side you know with us or are they going to side with the other party? So on the over bidder it is really a whole new contract and it is kind of the wild west to get it done. For the confirmed buyer it's the same contract. This is just a step in the process towards closing. Even if they over bid and raise the price there'll just be an amendment to the new price and then you
21:22 close.
21:23 >> Okay. So if the original buyer in essence outbids the over bidder,
21:29 >> that transaction continues, albeit at the higher price.
21:32 >> But the the if an over bidder wins, now you've got essentially an um a contractless contract or contractless situation, right?
21:44 >> Okay. So uh how from the from the over bidder's perspective um if if he finds subsequently somehow finds you know a defect with the property
21:58 >> right what what happens in an eventuality like that right because he he has no contingencies
22:05 >> uh once the court has confirmed him as the buyer right so pres you know loan contingency in inspection, nothing. In in fact, it would appear he he doesn't even get the opportunity to um approve uh you know, a preliminary title report.
22:27 >> So, um the legal title is presented and it it says clear. So, you you're going to get a you're going to get a title policy at the end. Um but you're right, you don't get a chance to read it and then start complaining about easements and such because it is asis and that's that was asis. That's why smart over biders get a copy of the prelim before they bid on it. Good listing agents put the prelim in the MLS package or the bid package. Um, so that's important. And I I think also to your point, the over bidder doesn't have any rights other than buying the property as is. And so if the property asis, let's say it's
23:03 vacant and then you day before the the close summies in the property, well that's not asis anymore. And so that becomes a a bone of contention because what does ASIS mean? It's a legal term and you I can't really advise my client other than talk to your attorney. I think we either have a problem or we have an opportunity. Um and in the case of the over bidder again, some brokerages mistakenly insist on the customer signing a whole new purchase contract. Well, now you went from asis to all these new rights that might be in the contract and and uh you know what does that mean and what does that look like? So, it can it can vary, but if you
23:39 write the contract improperly and and I've been the the beneficiary of that and the and the the realtor's yelling, "No, this is a probate. You don't get those rights, but but you just gave me a contract that you signed that gave those rights to my buyer." So, uh and I'll give you one other example is the listing agent might assume that we have to use their title and their preferred escro and often it's owned by the brokerage. And I would say, "No, we didn't agree to that. We agreed to buy the property as is. Now we have to decide where these things and how these things get done and it becomes a negotiation. So those are things where again you can try to control them in the
24:14 petition. That's debatable. But if you don't do anything it really just the wild west to get things closed. So, uh, what would what would happen typically if an overbid at some point changes his mind and decides he doesn't want to uh, buy the property, right? Again, there's no contract. So, for example, um, there's no, you know, liquidated damages like there typically would be uh, in in in a real estate contract. So what has your
24:49 experience shown you in terms of uh you know sort of a recanting over bidder?
24:56 >> The buyer is going to lose his 10% cash deposit at a minimum. And I've seen attorney I've seen uh uh attorneys pursue and judges approve um additional damages if you can prove them. You know, it's hard to prove damages in a real estate transaction, but theoretically if you sold if a property over bid for, you know, 1.1 um you know, are the damages uh at the over bid price or the damages over the original confirmed price? All those are legal questions that that the judge would decide and the trades would argue. But I've seen the the customer I mean
25:32 the buyer uh get um you have to remember you're in court already. It's not this is not like a civil matter where you might wait 6 months, two years to get a judge on a probate. They're in court all the time and so they can file a petition. They can file an exparte uh to and the and the judge is not sympathetic to a bidder just backing out for no reason. Now, of course, if the bidder buyer is backing out for good reason, like I said, we did this in a case and it's interesting because the attorney on the other side is one of my better attorneys. I work with her quite a bit. But my buyer, I think correctly said, "Hey, we're not buying a property with a squatter in it." That's that wasn't as
26:07 is. You know, if and and this isn't a case of they didn't disclose. This is a case they disclosed. We want this guy in the house until we close escrow. And my buyer said, "Absolutely not. I want to do a walk through the day before with nobody there." And so my my buyer did run the risk of, you know, non-performance and losing. We ended up closing the escrow because we found some way to get the the squatter out or the the friend of the seller out. But again, these things are debatable. But over bidder has a risk of losing his money and also potentially other other damages.
26:39 >> Okay. So, and again I'm not looking for your you know not looking for you to you know opine legally but let's say somebody over you know a successful over bidder actually agreed to pay a price that was higher than market value. Maybe he agreed to pay a million and a half and in reality the house is only worth 1.4. Um and uh you know and so subsequently the estate sells it for 1.4 million presumably. Then you do have I you know what looks to me like identifiable damages. Yeah.
27:12 >> Right. And so then the potentially the the um the administrator could petition the court for damages against the you know the buyer who didn't perform.
27:22 >> This is why when I'm the listing agent, I want the cashers check in my hand. I want it made out correctly. I want to know we can deposit that check if it's, you know, made out to um uh escrow. No, because uh and it's a subtle distinction, but if the overbid money goes into escrow, then to get it back out, the escrow needs both parties to agree. But the process is supposed to be the overbid deposit check is made to the estate. And so theoretically, the day after the close, the estate should deposit the money right away and have the full use of it and leverage that
27:57 way. And on the flip side, I've had cases where I represent a buyer and we overbid and we had a cashier's check as appropriate and they turn say to me, "Hey, I we haven't opened an estate account yet. Do you mind remaking out the check to the title or restaurant company?" No problem. I'm glad the check. No, I'm not going to do anything dishonest. Uh, but my buyer has the authority to do what they want to do. I I I don't I don't represent them the same way an attorney does. I'm the real estate agent. So, of course, we rather have the money back. And then once it goes into escrow, now if there's a dispute, the escro needs both parties to
28:32 agree at some point. Uh, or there's litigation. So, this is a case where these little subtle differences make a difference, but you know, if it's your transaction, it could be all the difference in the world. Well, and and and I this is I think an important distinction as well because um as you mentioned a few minutes ago a probate um confirmation sale process is is you're already in court
28:57 >> and now if if there is a dispute and the money is in escrow. So escrow is going to file an interpleer action but that's not a probate court action. That's a civil court action. And so now the estate is tied up in the civil court trying to resolve that and and the timeline in the civil court is much much longer than it is typically in probate court.
29:21 >> I know you and I are involved with one of those. But that's the only one in my career I've seen. Almost every other case I've ever seen in these is done in probate court. And it moves very quickly because, you know, even if you file a normal civil, you know, I don't know what the the calendaring like is now in LA County, but could be six months or two years, but the judge is very sympathetic put a thing everything on the next calendar if you have a proposed resolution. Now, they're not going to do a whole trial and if the buyer's objecting, but again, in my experience, the judges, it's pretty cut and dry, man. if you didn't close and the 10 days is up and you document it. I've I've seen many times where the buyers are
29:57 begging for the money and the the judge says you're lucky we don't, you know, uh assess damages or maybe we could assess damages and come back with that later. So, yeah, I I I would be very careful to file laws to think I'm get money back by filing a suit against an estate when they're in probate because they're already in front of judges.
30:16 >> Yeah. Yeah. So, what are the um let's let's now let's go kind of go back. Maybe I should have asked this earlier, but from from the the standpoint of marketing the property for sale and and and we've been talking about we've been talking about this in the context of a home, but but indeed um and and correct me if I'm wrong, this process applies to any real estate that's sold by an estate. So, what is What does the marketing process look like and and how is that or is it
30:54 different than you know the marketing process for a property that's being sold just you know conventional sale
31:02 >> or conventional
31:04 >> when your sale goes to court confirmation you're going to have to um um make the claim and back it up that you market the property fully uh and represent full market value uh you know your best effort uh is represented by the price you've accepted. And so it's important to document more so than a standard realtor. You know, where you listed the property, what kind of views you have, showings that that those kind of activity can be more important, particularly if somebody's objecting to the sale. Um so there's there's that disclosing as a pro a probate is, you know, important to protect your client and yourself legally with the proper
31:40 disclosure in the MLS and the proper forms and any offers you accept. And I actually kind of coach the buyer agents to say, "Here's the form numbers, and if you have questions, call me. I'm an expert in this area. I don't represent my own buyers, so I can I can really walk you through this." So, it is important to fully market the property. And I think that's another misnomer. People get in this business uh used to as realtors thinking they could double in every deal and they kind of hide the property. And and I'm sure people do that, and get away with it. uh though I scour the records try to find those opportunities because if they're getting it on the cheap then that's a chance for investor to pay a little more and get it. So the marking should be in the same
32:17 and then once you've accepted an offer and then petition for the court confirmation which can be 30 35 days or more you're obligated to continue to market the property up until the court date because now you're looking at a different group of buyers. You're looking at investors most commonly or sophisticated buyers who are going to come up with a deposit. But you still need to continue once you've publicized the sale to continue to market the property and and the if you don't that is grounds for the uh sale being continued or and I've seen even denied when somebody could prove hey you didn't show it you make it available I called you 10 times. I've seen judges as a
32:53 result say well it clearly wasn't marketed and we're going to decline the the petition. So it is important to continue to market the property.
33:00 >> Interesting. And one difference I just one difference is is often times because the person owned the property by definition passed more often than not these properties were vacant and or squatters or had tenants who were kind of sat there and took advantage situation in the environment we're in. And so one difference with probate is very often we do have tenants, heirs, squatters and that does make showing the property different than a standard residential property where you have the seller in the property. One of the areas that I try to focus on is is that person a is an error because if they have money
33:35 coming to them through the estate and they interfere or hold up the marking of the property then the administrator or executive has the possibility at least of charging back the expenses or losses to that error's percentage and so I often will make you know I don't advise people legally but I do advise them strategically hey let's make sure we talk about this you know if they're an error make sure they know that if we have to evict them and cost us $20,000. That's coming out of their side. You know, all those legal fees are their portion, not anybody else's.
34:06 >> So, um talk about and and we we have we have a situation like this where um the estate is insolvent, right? So the heirs stand to get nothing and now but but they nonetheless they you know they have taken up residence in in the property that has to be sold. So talk about a a a situation like and and by the way I the reason I bring this up is I I take it on faith this is not a
34:41 unique situation. I I you know probably most estates are not insolvent but but there's probably a percentage out there that are and on the one hand I can understand I'm an heir. I'm thinking I'm you know oh my gosh my you know relative has died. I'm I'm I'm legitimately sad about that. But on the other hand, now I'm going to be inheriting some money and oh wait, now I'm not going to be inheriting money because it turns out, you know, the estate is insolvent and and so now I'm I'm I'm mad or I'm whatever. And so I
35:16 take up residence and and maybe try to, you know, this may be a strong word, but extort money, you know, from the estate that would otherwise go somewhere else. talk talk to us about you know a a complex situation like that and how you've seen you know those kinds of things dealt how you've seen them dealt with. Well, the problem is if there's no equity in the property, uh then it can be argued there's no beneficial interest for the state to do anything, right? So, it doesn't make sense to spend money, um legal fees or
35:51 otherwise. Um there are options for short sales for probate. There are options for short sales, particularly with reverse mortgages, but short sales usually require somebody in the property who's cooperative or vacant. when you have a militant occupant, um it makes a short sale probably impossible because you just can't meet timelines. Um you know, there are cases where if there's a little bit of equity, we can sell the property and their investors will buy the property and take over that problem. And I've done more of these in the last year than I have my whole career where we we just say, "Look, there's a problem tenant and and you know, we started a
36:26 eviction and here's where we're at, but you know, we're not going to continue. you're going to get this property with this person in here, you know, and they're investors in certain markets that will will pay and and I think overpaid. We had a case where I think the buyer came back to me six months later kind of crying asking me for help and I said, "Well, if I could have got the guy out of there, we would have you bought the property because we couldn't." So, this is an area of the practice that's getting more uh it's just changed a lot. you know, few years ago, I had a rolodex of eviction attorneys and I knew the eviction laws and we moved pretty quickly. But postcoid and just, you know, working on all the politics of it, given our
37:02 current political climate here in in LA city, LA County, many surrounding cities, the state, there's so many protections for tenants, there's a militant attitude in the in the eyes of so many occupants that these are very complicated. You have to make sure you get to the right person to get the right answer. And you and I were meeting the other day where our, you know, staff people were saying, "Well, we have, you know, great eviction attorney we used 5 years ago." And I try to explain to him a, the guy who was great five years ago is not great today because it's a whole different business. Five years ago, it was an eviction mill and paperwork and and dates and such. Now, it's almost like you're a mafioso, you know, that
37:38 you have to kind of get in and talk to people and and um number one. Number two, um we're probably not going to be successful. And so I much rather let the other attorney pick the eviction attorney who's going to fail than for me to try to find somebody going to solve the problem that may not be solvable. And that's the problem in some of these cases. It just isn't solvable. So again, and I just closed a property in Herosa Beach with two tenants that I, you know, I just don't know how they're going to get them out. But it's not my problem. We sold the property, got a good price with the tenants in there, and that's I'm doing more and more business like that.
38:09 >> Yeah. Um, okay. So, you know what? Let's take another uh break and we'll come back and and and uh talk a little bit more with Bill. Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration, featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Bralet, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own
38:44 succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time searching. [snorts] So again, this is Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host Kevin Bemel and I've been talking to Bill Gross um arguably the most knowledgeable probate uh real estate specialist in in California. Uh Bill, we've worked on um
39:20 you know projects in other places uh besides California. Uh talk a little bit about your experience working outside of this state.
39:31 >> [laughter]
39:32 >> Well, I think Californians tend to do more business than other states and countries because we have to because our business climate has not been as attractive as some of the markets are growing. Um, you know, and we are a big we are a big um uh state, so we happen to have, you know, maybe more resources. But yeah, know we uh we're working on one where we have a buyer a seller perhaps in Virginia and a buyer perhaps in Colorado and um and they're all different. You know, it's it is interesting how just, you know, side side note, Colorado has only um active removal of uh I'm sorry, passive removal contingencies, which means that you buy
40:08 a property and you have a loan contingency. And if you waste time and that contingency expires, you've lost the right to use it. Whereas in California, you have to affirmatively remove your contingencies. And so these are small subtleties that when you do business in other markets, uh in probate or just in general real estate are very different. Another factoid is to my knowledge and I've asked this question numerous times there is no other state in the union that has a disclosure for probate whether listing property or selling it. And I ask you know key originator uh real estate a brokers I ask key attorneys in other states what do you do to protect your client and
40:43 they all tell me they they write something uh you know custom. Well obviously that takes time and money and then you know how thorough are they on that? Um, and it just always, it interests me. We're in a very litigus here in California. It's not as lit as other states. They don't really worry about it. And I ask them that I'm alarmed to not have a probate addendum for a listing or a contract. I I would be I'd be like, "What am I going to do?" And they're like, "Yeah, I write something up. It's not a big deal." Because I think doing business in Virginia or Colorado or or some of these other states we've done business in Alabama, people are just different there. here. It's a very very
41:18 competitive um adversarial situation. You have to protect yourself. So, it is different other states for sure.
41:24 >> Yeah. I I I'm you know I handle um a couple of matters in Alabama and I remember being in court last time I was in court [snorts] um I think it's maybe a couple years ago and I I was I was able to attend remotely fortunately but my lawyer was there in court and uh and and the the court recessed for a few minutes uh because the other side needed to go out into the hallway and and um you know whatever confer so I'm just kind of you know standing here in my office and my my lawyer says to the judge, "So, how are the kids?" You know, [laughter]
42:00 he says, "I you know, I didn't see them in church last Sunday." You know, [laughter] I mean, you know, it's so it's so different here in California than here in California.
42:11 >> It's so different. You know, I I part of a couple masterminds nationally with real estate agents. And so some of these teachers will say, "Yeah, go to the court and you'll meet the clerk and ask her questions and she'll give you information and go into the hearings and ask the judge questions." I'm like, "Are you kidding me? We have armed baifts. The the clerk is uh of the filing area is behind bulletproof glass. They're not going to answer any question other than where's your your case number? Here's a file." I will say I did go to Orange County once for confirmation and I was in the uh audience area of the courtroom and before we started the judge like hi everybody. How you guys all doing today? What brings you here? They haven't
42:47 started yet. What brings you here? Oh, good. Okay. I look forward to that. Okay. Well, and you're Oh, great. You're this, you're that. I'm thinking, man, it's a different world outside LA County where, you know, you go through the the metal detectors, I think, everywhere. But, uh, you feel like you're in this intense um, I don't know, process in LA is very different than any other jurisdiction I've done business in.
43:07 >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, also in Alabama, I went to file a document with a court clerk.
43:13 >> [laughter]
43:15 >> And I I you know I had her thing and she and she wops up. She says, "Oh, you're Lindsay's client. Don't you just love Lindsay?" [laughter] My lawyer's name was on that matter was Lindsay. Actually, I do. [laughter] You know, I was like, they knew they knew all the lawyers by name, by, you know, reputation. It's so wild. I can't imagine a clerk at at LA Superior or for that matter even Orange County Superior, you know, knowing the lawyers that well. It's it's again, it's just a it's a really very different experience.
43:50 >> I will say the top 1% back pre-COVID when the attorneys had to go to court way more often, the [clears throat] top 1% definitely got recognition and from the judges and the staff, you can see it and they earned it. Um, now they'll go to court nearly as often. It's almost all video and they have you know staffs that you know go instead of them. So but yeah there there is certainly look I go I I was was it with you or another matter I was there and the judge recognized me because I I always go and all my court sales whether I'm representing the buyer or the seller I always go in person because I want to hear what's going on. I want to see the judge. I want to see
44:25 the the body language. Um and after a while you get a reputation with in this case the judge and other attorneys. So I do think is in LA the best you can you got to do but we're certainly more anonymous than other jurisdictions.
44:39 >> Yeah. So switching gears a little bit now um and you've you've talked a little bit about you know working with attorneys and and and you know identifying experienced versus perhaps less experienced attorneys. talk about some of the things that [snorts] you do to work more effectively with not perhaps just the attorneys but the judge be I think we all we all we have this idea of judges you they're in their black robes and they're you know
45:14 they're [snorts] almost you know robotic in a way or or with with you know without human emotion. That is not frankly my experience at all. Um it has it was never been my experience even back when I had a real estate company and I'd be there for a you know a UD or something. So talk about how you um the things that you do to to work more effectively with with lawyers with um other parties to a probate you know with with the judge although maybe it's not working with the judge per se but you know sort of dealing with the judge.
45:50 Well, as far as judge is concerned, I actually interview with one of my podcasts. I was really lucky. You know, I try to learn uh LA County Bar Association has an annual um I forget the exact term they use for it, but where the probate judges will kind of share their insights from the bar over the year, changes and procedures and and kind of their general feeling, what mistakes they see made. Well, that's really valuable. I always I always watch that and take notes or record it and take detailed notes and share it with some attorneys I work with because they're telling you what they like and don't like. You might as well pay attention. Um, you know, I always go to court when I'm on a on a matter as far
46:26 as a sale either side. I show up dressed like an attorney. Um, I think the real estate agents that don't I think that's a mistake. Um, and I I've learned to address the court in a lawyerly manner because they appreciate uh being addressed that way. And so um you know there's a com that's a part of the combation things with attorneys is different because boy they're all so different and you also spend a lot of time with you know I'm always looking for who is the person who's really going to do the work. Is it the parallegal or the secretary in the office or the assistant um and because I end up doing more work with them than I do the attorney to be honest about it.
47:00 >> Um but again just learning how they do business and trying to understand their cadence. You know I work in realtor time. you know, as a real estate agent, you know, somebody texts me, they expect either immediate response or within the hour, I'll get back to you and by the end of the day, you know, attorneys are the only business I work with. And I don't mean to disparrage the industry because some are very busy, but you know, you'll send them a message and like a week later they'll they'll call me and say, "Hey, Bill, this is, you know, attorney so and so returning your phone call." I'm like, "Who? What?" Oh, yeah. A week ago. Cuz as real estate agents, a week ago, I probably closed a deal already. like it's just a different
47:35 life. Uh but we have different rhythms and different cadences and I think the key is to understand your client's cadence and rhythm and verbage and procedures and try to meet them where they are. And so it varies uh you know you're different than other fiduciaries I work with as well and and I appreciate your professional style and I try my best to you know adhere to those rules where others are much more um uh inconsistent or less professional less structured let's say and try to you know work within those framework as well.
48:07 >> Yeah. Good. So, and we're actually we're kind of coming up here on time. So, any any other thoughts you'd like to share that you think will be, you know, beneficial for for the viewers?
48:20 >> You know, I think whether you're an attorney or fiduciary or real estate agent or, you know, even administrator of an estate, I I do think the focus should always be on creating value for your customer. And I think everything else kind of takes care of itself. That's that's always been my northstar. even when I couldn't you I started the podcast people say well how do you get paid on this and I said I don't even know but you know 400 interviews later with attorneys I've learned a lot about probate through talking to attorneys and related vendors and as long as I'm learning and growing uh and doing what I enjoy it's worthwhile so I would just say for anybody in this business if this area that you want to get into um you
48:56 know learn how to be more productive and more valuable for your customers and the value will take care of itself don't so focus so much on the the business format at the beginning. F focus way more on learning something that you can help other people with and then that opportunity will present itself more often.
49:12 >> Very good. Well, I think that's a that's a good uh idea to to wrap up on. So, Bill, thanks so much for, you know, for being a guest on on my show today. I really appreciate it. you know, um I I use I use my show, I think, for the same reason you do, which is to learn more, but also to develop relationships with people. Um because in my experience, the better we know um each other, the the more effectively we can work together. And and in the end, you know, our our our jobs are similar in that we're we're
49:48 looking to administrate an estate as effectively as possible. and and so communication and and and mutual understanding go a long way toward making that happen. So
49:59 >> yeah. Yeah. And I might add just one more piece. A little overlap always helps too. I think sometimes people are very clear on drawing line what they don't do and they expect somebody else does do and then things fall in the middle. And I I always feel like in any you know in sports you want your your areas of responsibility to overlap just a little bit so that if you missed it I covered it. If I missed it you covered it. And we should know where those overlaps are. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, again, thanks so much for being on the show today. I'll I'll have you hang tight while I do a quick wrap-up. So, also thank you all very much for uh viewing the show, for being
50:34 on viewing the show today. I really appreciate you watching. If you have any questions, comments, criticisms, all of our my social media links uh will be in the show notes when the episode posts on YouTube. Bill's contact information and a link to his show will be there as well. So, if you want to talk to Bill or or maybe you have uh you know a transaction that you you need a real estate agent for, this is this is I I always give the shameless plug because my my guests are too modest to do so. But but you will not find I I can attest
51:11 to this personally because Bill and I have worked together many many times. uh you will not find a more skilled diligent real estate practitioner uh than than Bill Gross and and across the property spectrum because we've done both residential and commercial transactions. So I um unequivocally recommend Bill to you and his contact information will be in the show notes as well. So that only uh leaves for me to thank you again very much for joining us today and signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell. Courage
51:47 at all times, my friends.