0:02 Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want? [Music] Hello and welcome to People Making Money. I'm your host, Kevin Bemmel, and I'm here every Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about job hunting, starting and running a business, and building wealth, all of the financial aspects of life. So, today I'm going to be talking about the uh emotional toll
0:41 of firing someone or getting fired. Uh I I think this is um I it's it's the you know hoped for um you know I'll never have to do this kind of thing. Um I I guess you know what this is the triumph of uh you know hope over reason as they say. probably sometime in our life um we're going to have to engage if one in one if not both of these uh situations and and so it's I think a good idea for us to uh understand them be prepared for
1:18 them and and the fact of the matter is although I'm going to be talking about uh firing someone or getting fired in the context of a professional sit situation uh look we have to deal with firing people in other parts of our lives. U there are times when um our our involvement with another person in our personal life is so detrimental to our well-being that we essentially have to fire this person. Um I I know it's ghosting is a popular
1:54 thing to do these days and or or throwing a tantrum over um social media. Um the these are not appropriate. They are not the way an adult handles such situations. And so I I guess I should say I'm going to be talking about the way a mature adult handles these situations. So, I I I will tell you that uh I I I'm I'm sure I had to fire someone sometime in my life. I I couldn't remember an incident where that was the case, but I was fired uh very
2:31 early on in my professional career. It was actually my second job uh out of college. I was working for a a real estate syndicator. That's what they were called at the time. This was a man who uh essentially bought properties um in uh limited partnerships and syndicated them, meaning he sold uh limited partner uh shares in the property to investors and then he managed the properties and and eventually turned around and and sold them. Um presumably, you know, always at a profit. So I worked for him
3:08 for about I think a year, a year and a half. Uh, I worked long, long hours, 70, 80 or more hours a week, week after week, month after month. And he paid me very, very little, frankly. And uh, you know, I talked to him about getting paid more. He wouldn't do it. And and so uh you know young man that I was uh I was I was in uh I was about 25 years old. Uh I decided that I was going to start my own
3:44 company. Uh but since I had been paying into unemployment insurance, I didn't want to quit uh because then I couldn't collect unemployment insurance. So I had to get him to lay me off or fire me. and he wasn't going to lay me off because I was doing the work of two or more people, you know, for for one measly salary. And so I concluded I was going to have to get him to fire me. And so uh I I didn't lower my workload. I just uh started essentially doing things like ignoring him when he would speak to me and forcing him to tell me things, you
4:20 know, over and over again, you know, and and and things like that. And and finally he got so upset he uh one night it was it was a Friday night I believe I think it was u um uh Halloween that night or the next night or something like that. He calls me into his office the end of the workday. It was already dark outside even though it was only I think six o'clock or thereabouts and you know essentially crying told me he was going to have to fire me. and and I just sat there um with with kind of a half smile on my
4:57 face and and you know he started telling me a I thought this we were going to have this great relationship and I was going to make you a vice president and all this stuff and I'm kind of like yeah no you weren't thinking in my head right um and he and he he starts to cry and I said okay well you know I'll clean out my desk and and and he's he was he was just you just absolutely beside himself. He said, "Don't you have anything to say?" And I said, "No, I don't." And he couldn't believe that I
5:34 was not upset. He Why aren't you upset? I said, "There's no reason for me to be upset." Said, "This is what you this is what you require this how or this is how you require this situation." end. These are not exact quotes, but but basically I said to him there was no other way the situation was going to end. I I I told you before I I was dramatically underpaid. You didn't want to do anything about it. I'm not going to be taken advantage of. I got up and I walked out of out of his office and I walked across the hall into my cubicle
6:10 and you know, it didn't take me long to put my stuff together because I was prepared. and and and and he he walked after me and and just sort of watched me go. Never spoke to him again, you know. Um I'm not even sure I got a final paycheck from him, but um you you know, now this maybe isn't the typical firing situation. Uh but but I think that it should illustrate something. And for for me, it was that getting fired was a benefit. Okay? I mean, I couldn't have cared less that I was getting fired.
6:46 I'm, you know, who cares? Uh, but but for me, it allowed me to go on and take the next step in my professional life and and and get where I am today. So, um, you know, we have a lot of, I think, preconceived notions um about what it means to fire someone or to get fired and and these get in the way. sometimes at least of what's what's what may be going on. So I I want to play. So the other whenever I think of firing, I also think of one of my all-time Broadway
7:23 musicals, a show called How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. It was made into a wonderful movie starring Robert Morse um in in the lead role. And I I'm going to play you just a little short clip of a song um that relates to this subject because this is this is such a heavy subject. I think we need a little levity uh to to get it going. So, let me go ahead and share my screen here and let's let's uh here we go. Let's open this up. Okay. So, here we go. I'm just going to play you um roughly roughly a minute of this. This is this
7:59 is a song called uh um Brotherhood of Man. And uh uh like I said, this is Robert Morris. He plays the lead character. And um he's talking about a situation where uh one of the uh senior uh leaders in in the company is considering firing a bunch of people. Now, Wally, I want you to remember that before you consider firing Mr. Bigley. Who's considering that? Get the hell out of here. You see, I know what's on your mind. You'd like to clear out the whole place. I mean, from top to bottom. It's the obvious move, but stop and think.
8:37 One man may seem incompetent, another not make sense, while others look like quite a waste of company expense. They need a brother's leadership. So, please don't do them in. Remember, mediocrity is not a mortal sin. There we're in in the the brotherhood of Okay. So, so you you can see that you know there there right there's all the
9:12 reasons incompetence the the middle guy in the middle you you can't he doesn't make sense the third guy is just a complete waste of company expense by the way he's the nephew I think of the CEO of the company or the president of the company CEO was not a term that was used used back then but but right so it's just and and and here's um here's Robert Morris basically saying now wait a it, you know, this is the average worker, right? Um, now whether that's true or not, right? Uh, you know, you can see kind of both sides
9:47 of of the firing situation going on there, right? The the man who was planning on on doing the firing when it's when it's, you know, brought out into the open, what his real scheme is, he immediately disavows it, right? uh and and and the people on the other side who who might be upset because it it it's it may make them think they're incompetent or useless or all those kind of things, right? It's all exposed right there, you know, in the in the I think it was less than a minute uh you know, clip of that song. So, so, you know, I
10:22 want to talk about the um you know, like I said, the emotional toll that firing takes on the supervisor and the employee. I I have six thoughts on that. Um and then um talk about some some ways to handle the situation so that hopefully both no matter which, you know, position you're in, supervisor or employee, it can be handled in an adult, you know, mature fashion, right? So talking about the emotional toll first for uh you know from the supervisor's
10:58 perspective um they're likely to feel both guilt and self-doubt over the fact that somebody needs to be fired. And by the way it may not necessarily be the supervisor's decision to do the firing. that decision may be coming up from from higher up but the supervisor is the one who has to actually you know do do the firing right so and e that's an even more difficult situation where essentially you know you're being told well you got to go
11:33 fire this guy and and you may feel you may genuinely feel that that firing this person is the wrong decision but it's not in your hands to to you you know, say, "No, no, we're going to keep this person." Right? So, now you have to go through with firing the person. And so, uh, you know, a supervisor may feel like he didn't support the, uh, the employee, uh, well enough. um he may question um his own judgment about firing the person because of that or because of other
12:08 reasons or like in the example I just gave where it's not the supervis it wasn't the supervisor's decision. They're just being essentially ordered to carry it out. They may disagree with the decision, but they nonetheless have to be the one to to make to do the firing. Right. And and two, you know, it's it's a judgment call. I mean, if you say to someone, I don't agree with this decision, but uh I've been given the responsibility to carry it out. You know, if if it gets around that you've said that, your superiors uh could
12:47 interpret that as you're trying to undermine their author undermine their authority and and that can be a bad thing as well. So, you know, there there's that whole dynamic going on of, well, I have to do this thing. I think it's wrong or I think it's unjust. Um, but I still have to do it. And I've been given the responsibility I can't, you know, slough it off on somebody else. Um, that that could be interpreted negatively against me, which could damage my position here in the
13:22 company. Uh and it could also, you know, make me look like I'm, you know, sort of uh I I want to shift blame rather than take responsibility for the actions that it is my responsibility to perform. Right? So all of those can create guilt and self-doubt in in the supervisor and and and those those kinds of feelings typically don't go away uh in the short term. They take some time to to process. Okay. So that
13:57 that's number one. Uh number two, and this is this is from the employees standpoint. So there might be the the employee might feel shame and even a loss of identity. Uh so you know when we get fired from a job especially if we've been there for any length of time and especially if it's a job that we we wanted it it it was it was I mean when I say we wanted but we really wanted to do the kind of work we're doing in that job. uh you know to get to get fired
14:32 really feels like a personal rejection not unlike you know when um you know someone would break up with us you know an interpersonal relationship. So uh and and and by the way there may be an aspect of personal rejection in the firing. You know, it it it could be that uh one of the motives for for firing uh the person is that there the you know, there there is a a personality conflict between, you know, the person being fired and someone else in the company and the company leadership has made has
15:08 drawn the conclusion, well, it's more important to keep the other person than this one. And so there, you know, so you know, you're the one that gets fired. So uh you know as as an employee who gets fired to the extent that you valued the job and and wanted to stay at the company uh you know don't I I would say don't uh don't try and uh subsume the feeling of rejection. It's real. Okay. You are being rejected. I mean for better or for worse that's
15:43 what firing means. It's a rejection. and it's saying we don't want you working here anymore. And and it's easy to say don't take it personally. Uh but it is it is personal, right? And so rather than trying to convince yourself that it's not personal, I haven't really been rejected. Just mourn the loss and and do your best to learn from it. What could I what could I do in the future to potentially avoid this result? Okay, maybe you know you were slightly less
16:19 than diplomatic let's say at times interacting with other people in the company, right? So there is a big difference between cander and just flatout rudeness. Cander is is being honest and and open about what what you think. Okay. But that can be that can be conveyed in a way that makes it easier or more difficult for somebody to hear your critical remarks. So when I was a chaplain with um with Carrier Airwing uh
16:57 14 I think was the one I was with. It's a while ago now, right? Whenever I had to say something that I thought would would be interpreted as critical of my commanding officer, I would go into his office and I' I'd knock on the door, which was I wouldn't go in unless the door was open. I'd knock on the door, you know, kind of the door jam actually, and say, "Sir, um, I'd like to speak to you. Is is now convenient?" Right? And almost always he would say yes, right? Although he would almost he would almost always say either yes, rabbi or yes, chaplain. So if he said yes, rabbi, I knew that he was, you
17:33 know, kind of in a good mood there. I I hadn't done anything recently to, you know, upset him, which I, you know, did on a regular basis that I had to be aware of that. Um, and if he said, "Yes, chaplain," I knew, okay, I had to I had to be extra careful in what I said. And I would start out by saying, "Sir, I I I need to discuss something with you." And uh it may very well be that I'm out of line in raising this issue. And if so, I would think it's absolutely
18:08 appropriate for you to turn me around and kick me on the backside out of your office. Right? And whenever I would say that, like the first time I said that to him, he's looking at me like, "What are you talking about?" Right? But then after a few times he realized that I had to say something that would you know potentially be uh uncomfortable for him to hear. Um but it was important enough for me to sort of you know risk doing that uh you know a and for the betterment of you know his his unit the airwing right and so then we he would
18:44 almost always say why don't you close the door and have a seat chaplain and then we would talk about it right and and so I think the way we set up difficult conversations are important now I'm using this in the context of how someone who's been fired can you know might learn to do something better But, you know, we want to do the same thing if we if we're the supervisor firing someone, right? We want to set it up and make it as um as easy for the person to hear as possible. Okay? It's it's it's bad enough for a person to lose their job. Um there's no reason to beat them up emotionally
19:20 um in the process of of firing them. Okay? So, shame, loss of identity, uh these are real. Okay? and the the um the if the job was like I said meaningful or was held for a long time. Okay, that can certainly make those uh emotional responses uh much much deeper. Okay, so that so that that's number two. Number three, stress and anxiety. So this is true for both both people both the supervisor and the employee are are likely to feel stress and anxiety. Okay. Now the employee uh
19:57 to the extent that they have no idea what's coming okay they may you know they get called into their supervisor's office um that may be an everyday occurrence for them in the sense that they you know supervisor also says hey come into my office I need to talk to you about something so they may have no inkling of what's in store so at least at the beginning they're not feeling any stress or anxiety on the other hand if the relationship between the supervisor and the employee employee I is one filled with stress and anxiety. Uh you know that will be the response once
20:32 they're asked to come into the office even though they may not know that they're being fired. On the other hand, they may they may have sort of read the the writing on the wall so to speak and so they know what's up. Um but just because an employee knows what's coming, it doesn't that doesn't necessarily reduce the stress and anxiety. uh quite to the contrary the fact that the moment is now here uh can can cause the stress to increase and in some cases increase dramatically. So that's from the employee side. But for the supervisor
21:07 too, most people are not so coldblooded that they enjoy firing someone uh and and potentially hurting someone's feelings. And so the need to fire someone will raise their own level of stress and anxiety. The uncertainty about how the employee is going to react to being fired could also raise the supervisor's stress and anxiety. Right? So all of these things come into play. Now, I will add too that especially in
21:45 today's environment, uh, an employee being fired may not be the last word from that employee. So, if the employee feels he's been wrongly terminated, right, then that employee could turn around and sue the company, they could get the state labor department involved. You know, there's there's lots of things that can happen. And so there's an there's a lot of pressure on the supervisor to handle the firing appropriately so as not to uh increase the likelihood of some kind of follow-on event or some kind of even worse successful follow-on
22:22 event. So that's oftentimes why uh someone you know either a a representative from human resources if it's a large company will be present or maybe even the human resources representative that's the person who will do the firing to make sure that all of the legal requirements are followed. there may actually be a member of of you know in-house council's office there as well uh depending on on the stakes of this particular firing. Okay. So now by the way I'm describing this as it's an in-office meeting. Of course firings
22:58 don't always happen in office especially if it's a virtual company. They could happen over the phone. They could happen virtually. Nonetheless all of these things still apply. Okay. And uh while the immediacy of a face-to-face meeting may make them tougher, okay, the um lack of immediacy of a phone call or a virtual meeting of can mean that certain um visual clues are not perceived as readily and and so it can
23:33 be more difficult to successfully navigate the firing of someone um you know through a telephone call or or a virtual meeting. Okay. So that that impacts uh uh so uh stress and anxiety impacts uh both both people as does sadness and grief. So especially if there's been a long-term working relationship. Okay. Oftentimes emotional bonds are built up. Okay. We're human beings. this idea that somehow we're automatons working in a professional
24:08 environment and nothing really ever, you know, develops of at an emotional level just is is is not the case. So, uh and again, it could be on behalf of both parties. Okay? Especially if if the person doing the firing is someone with whom the the the employee has worked with a long time. Okay? So, um, you know, there is likely to be sadness and and by the way, you know, firing, I I could have said, you know, being laid off as well. Um, you know, a layoff is more
24:44 like a no fault firing. Okay? And and in a in a layoff situation, the sadness and grief may be heightened because there is no good. There's no the the person hasn't done anything to warrant being let go. It's really more a a you know a situation where either the economic conditions or the state of the company means that the number of employees has to has to be downsized. and you know this particular person, it's just been
25:19 decided that their position can be eliminated for one reason or another and and they haven't done anything that would warrant, you know, being being laid off, but nonetheless, they're not going to be working there anymore. So, this can add to the sadness and the grief again of both parties, right? It's in some cases it's it's easier uh it may be e I should say it may be easier to take being fired for cause uh than just being laid off where you're left with kind of going I didn't do anything wrong. It's just the economy is awful
25:54 and the company had to shrink and I you know I didn't make the cut. I was only there for two years and and and the the cut off line was people who had been you know had been there for three years or less were going to be let go and the people with more seniority were going to be kept or something like that. So uh all of these factors play into the sadness and the grief that might exist. And I I I would say that either side of it, you know, if you're feeling particularly sad or you're grieving particularly hard after uh you know, a short period of time, maybe a few days
26:30 or a week. So then it may it may be time to get some some counseling to help you deal with the sadness and the grief. um it it it it won't necessarily self-resolve in every case and so you would be wise to get some help in that respect. Okay. Uh number five, anger and resentment may very well be felt by the employee. Right? The employee may feel that they've been their their work has been wrongly assessed. They may feel that
27:05 they were blindsided by being fired. may that they weren't given a warning or weren't given sufficient warning. Um all of those kinds of things. Um and so um and so and they may be they may be angry at their supervisor because they they felt the supervisor didn't give them proper support, didn't train them, wasn't clear in the instructions or the or in in um setting the expectations, all kinds of things. Okay. the the employee may be bad at the company more
27:40 on a sort of more amorphous basis like this company, you know, just treats people badly. Well, the fact of the matter is companies don't treat people badly per se. It's the people in the company, right, that are doing the treating. However, the culture of of a company can be one that is uh you know, we'll say less than optimally uh you know, respectful of of the people who work there. Um but but recognize that's that's coming from somewhere and most likely it's coming from senior leadership. And so uh you know it's it's
28:18 all good and well to to refer to the company but let's be clear about really you know who has the responsibility here. So anger and resentment on the part of the employee um can will will often result uh from a firing and and by the way the employee may also be angry at himself right he let himself down. He he realized he wasn't performing the way he ought to and now he's been fired because of it and he may be angry that he didn't take some kind of measure himself to improve his performance uh
28:55 rather than essentially sabotaging himself. All of that can lead to anger and self-resentment, right? And so if if you're feeling angry and resentful about being fired, but you know when you look at it uh you know as objectively as you can you you you really can't hold you know anyone in the company responsible for you know injustice or something. So then I I I you know take a look at yourself. Are are you angry at yourself? Did you shortch change yourself? And if so, okay, we do that sometimes. Many of
29:32 us have uh have sabotaged ourselves. So then the question becomes, all right, what did I do? Why do I think I did it? And how can I pre prevent this in the future and that can be a way to work through the anger and the resentment? Now, if you can do that on your own, fine. you, but you may also decide again you you you need to get some counseling to help you work that through and and you know get out of the self- sabotage business. And then finally, uh fear of fallout. So on the part of the supervisor, I I mentioned this a little
30:09 bit um just a few minutes ago. So the supervisor may worry about backlash from the from the fired employee. He may also be worried about backlash from employees who are staying. They may have really liked the person who was fired. They may have liked that person more than they like the supervisor. Uh that that that can, you know, that that could also be the case. Uh they could feel uh less uh sure in their positions because one of their peers has been fired. And so they may seek a way to, you know, kind of
30:44 wreak their revenge, so to speak. And and and again, there may be leadership repercussions. Uh and there may be um there may be damage to the supervisor's reputation. Oh, he had to fire such and such. you know, he's just doing that to cover up for his own lack of leadership ability or his own inability to properly mentor his employees or work with them or, you know, whatever it is that people, you know, decide is is, you know, the true reason why the person got fired. Especially if the if the if the
31:19 employee who was fired was well-liked by other peers of the supervisor and nonetheless the supervisor went ahead and fired that employee, the other supervisors may uh they may feel, you know, that that their their peer was is doing a bad job. And so the the supervisor who did the firing may feel like, wow, you know, um how is this going to affect my position among my peers or among, you know, my my superiors? So, um all of these are part of the emotional toll that can be taken
31:56 on a supervisor and an employee when they're fired. So, we're going to take a a a sponsor break and be back with how to handle the situation. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're
32:31 your trusted partner through every step. Magnum Properties, Inc., turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. Okay, so this is People Making Money, one of the Way to Wow shows, and I'm your host, Kevin Beml. We're talking about firing with humanity, and I I've just talked about uh six possible emotional tolls that can be taken on the
33:07 supervisor or the employee or both as a result of a firing. So, so then you know, how do we fire someone with humanity, right? And and that that's that's really the the the crux Whoa. We just had a small earthquake, I think. Um that's really the the the crux of of today's uh uh you know, today's show. So, first of all, sorry, the earthquake left me a little bit off balance here. Um so first of all uh from
33:43 the supervisor's perspective you need to prepare. Okay this isn't something you want to do off the cuff. So give some thought about the conversation that you're going to have and realize that the conversation needs to be had in the context of empathy not sympathy. Okay. Oh I'm so sorry. not that I mean that's that won't necessarily help the person out and it may convey the wrong message but but empathy one of of a sense of I you know
34:20 I I can imagine this is this is difficult for you to hear and uh it's honestly a little bit difficult for me to say uh but you know here it is you know I mean I I tend to use like I gave the example of of when I had to tell um my commanding officer at KAG14 um you know something difficult uh you know I I set it up with with humor um but I I'm not sure that I would set up a firing with with humor but but rather with with a a sense of uh of
34:56 understanding that what's coming is is difficult and I I'm I I I will do my best to uh make this as easy as I can on you within the context of knowing that there is no way for this to be pleasant. Right? So you you know as the supervisor I think you could you could acknowledge the the employees contributions uh and and and and recognize that um those contributions are real um while
35:31 the same while at the same time acknowledging unfortunately um they weren't uh sufficient for you to continue working here and so um we are going to have to let you go. Um, we want to be clear. Um, but we want to we want to do so with with some some empathy. Okay. Uh, it's a it's a hard it's a for most people it's a hard thing to hear. Notwithstanding the example I gave in the beginning where I was trying to get my my boss to fire me. Um, most people are not trying to get fired, right? And so, um, you know, we do want to be
36:08 clear. um we you know we don't want to belabor the point and and and on the but on the other hand we don't want to you know metaphorically take a gun out and shoot them between the eyes that that is not the proper way to treat a fellow human being no matter what you think of the person. Okay you may you may think the person is genuinely you know terrible at their job. Well, okay. Okay. Um, you know, that's why I played that clip from from How to Succeed in Business. Some people are terrible at their job. If you if you've ever seen
36:44 the show, the people that he uses as his examples really are not good employees. They they are not okay. Um, but nonetheless, at at a at a time like this, we need to treat the person decently. We need to show due concern for the person's humanity. So we want to prepare with compassion. That's number one. Uh number two for both the supervisor and the employee. Um we need to remain professional and not get personal. Okay? So we want to focus on um the the the
37:22 role and performance of the person but not the person himself. Okay? This isn't uh there there's no point in in getting involved with with blaming someone or um getting into you know emotional reactions during the meeting. Now look, someone may start crying. Okay, that can be it can be difficult to hold our emotions um in u people will try. Uh but but sometimes they won't succeed. Okay, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that someone uh you know starting to tear up at at
38:00 hearing they're being fired is is a lack of professionalism. We're not stones. We're human beings. And so if you're the supervisor and you're firing someone and that person starts to cry, I'm not talking about wailing and, you know, nashing of teeth and tearing of hair, but they they start to cry. They they start to tear up. Um I I you know, I would have a box of tissues uh nearby, offer them a tissue. Um ask them if they would like, you know, a glass of water or a drink of water. um and ask them if they'd like, you know, just a little time alone to to gather their thoughts or to to kind of get a hold of
38:36 themselves. Um and and and if so, you know, say, "Look, I'll I'll you know, why don't you just sit here for a little while and I'll check back with you in a few minutes and and see see how you're doing." Okay? There's that that there is nothing unprofessional about any of that. It's perfectly appropriate conduct even in a professional environment. Okay. Um for us to think that somebody getting fired should take it stoically um I I think is is first of all foolish and and and at that point probably um
39:14 showing a lack of of empathy uh for a fellow human being. So you know as the supervisor the maintenance of a professional situation may fall most heavily or maybe even singly on your shoulders. Okay. Now if the employee starts getting abusive uh you know saying things I think it's also the supervisor's role to say I I I I I would ask you to refrain from saying these kinds of things. They're not helpful. Um they will not uh you know
39:53 stead you well in the future. uh you know um somebody may call our company to get a reference on you or may contact the company to get reference on you and and how you handle this situation could be part of what the company would include in a reference. So, I I I I encourage you to get a hold of yourself and you know, and and if someone is is acting overly emotional and and and even aggressively, you may say the same thing to them. Um, do you need a few minutes to get a hold of
40:28 yourself? Okay. You know, would you like a drink of water? I'll be happy to go get you one. Um, but how I'm going to I'm going to give you a few minutes to calm down. I'm going to come back and then we can wrap things up. Okay? But it will while both sides uh you know if if the if the person being fired attacks you the supervisor it's still your responsibility to remain professional. Okay that's part of your job. Okay. So remain professional not personal. Okay. Um allow for emotional space. So, I
41:07 mentioned that um in the last one where if the person start if the employee starts to tear up or something, give them a little emotional space uh to to to kind of get a hold of themselves. If you're the employee, okay, um you know, don't react, okay? take a few beats before responding to the to being told that you're being fired. Okay? You're not required to speak immediately after you hear those
41:42 words. Okay? Let let the initial shock sort of sink in a little bit and and take a few minutes to uh or take some time to process your emotions. Okay? And if you're feeling especially tumultuous inside. It's perfectly legitimate to say to your supervisor, I I'm I'm I'm not I'm I'm I'm struggling to be able to appropriately respond at in the moment. So, um may I have a few minutes to just absorb what you've told
42:17 me and then perhaps we we could speak about it when I I feel like I have a better hold on myself. Okay. Again, that is perfectly appropriate for for an employee to ask for something like that. And if the supervisor is asked for that there, I can't think of any circumstance under which this supervisor would would would be appropriate in saying no. Okay? You're there to help this person
42:52 transition out of your company. Okay? So firing someone, telling that they're they're fired is is the beginning of the process, not the end of it. Okay? So no matter what you think about that employees performance, they are entitled to have a discussion about what went wrong, what they could have done better. Okay? That's that's part of what they're owed by the company. Now, maybe you've had many conversations about that before that led up to the firing. Nonetheless, it's
43:29 still appropriate to take a few minutes if the employee wants to review them. Okay? And and you can it's okay to say, well, you know, we did talk about this several times. Um, but I'm I'm happy to go over them again for a few minutes and if you have any questions that weren't addressed previously to address them now. Okay. Again, um that that is um that is part of the give and take in a firing situation. But it is the the for if you're an employee and and you you know
44:06 and you you end up getting fired, you want to allow for some emotional space so that you can handle the situation appropriately. Okay. Next, offer some resources and support if you're the supervisor. Okay. So, um if the person is entitled to any kind of severance package, make sure that's made clear. Okay. um they may are they're probably entitled to a final paycheck. When are they going to get it? Now, there are laws about that in in most if not all states. So, make sure you have prepared all the details of that before you meet
44:42 with the employee so you can be clear um and you're not telling them something that in fact is not is not the case or you're not telling them something that actually breaks the law that you know the employee may leave and immediately consult with somebody who knows the the law surrounding termination of an employee. And if they've been told anything that it contradicts that law, it's likely to make them angry. And now a dispute is could could be created where one could be avoided. Okay. So it's the supervisor's responsibility to
45:18 in advance of the meeting determine what are the resources and support that are available to the fire employee. Maybe there's counseling services available. um especially if it's a layoff situation, maybe there is job uh job finding services available. So the company is going to help the laid-off people find a job somewhere else. Okay, there there you know there may be COBRA benefits for health care. All all of these things may apply and so the supervisor needs to be prepared to tell that to to explain those things to the employee. Okay. Um,
45:56 I've I've alluded to this several times. Um, but the I think there's a responsibility on both parties, the the employee and the supervisor to do some constructive reflection on the situation. Uh, how could this have been avoided? What could the uh employee have done better? Now, you don't you won't necessarily engage in a conversation of what the supervisor could have done better. Uh, but if you're the employee and you feel you genuinely feel that the supervisor
46:33 made some mistakes that led to this result, uh, it's perfectly fine to explain those to the supervisor. Okay? I mean you you don't want to be antagonistic about it but you may feel that uh the supervisor uh treated you unfairly that you were always given the the the worst assignments and other people in that supervisor's department um seemed to always get better assignments or at least it appeared that way. Okay. and and and the supervisor
47:08 didn't seem to be open to uh um examining u how you felt about that and and that really you know maybe demotivated you uh and to the point where your performance um you know was was not up to the mark um and and you might suggest to the supervisor look you know this is what happened with me I I felt completely disempowered because it seemed like I always got the worst assignments. And I attempted to talk to you about this uh a
47:43 couple of times and and you you just weren't open to it. And I just I'm just telling you this that so hopefully um you know for the people who are staying here that you're working with maybe you'll re-examine how you how you supervise them. That's that's completely again completely appropriate thing to say. Don't say it with ranker. say it with in the interest of maybe the the you know the good of of your of your you know of the your peers who are saying of the company while you leave. Okay. So
48:18 you know the you know having an opportunity for each of you to learn from each other what might have been done differently um is is a good way of handling um the firing of an employee with with humanity. Okay. Um, next, maintain dignity. Okay, now some people would say maintain dignity and respect. I I don't agree with that. Okay. Um, dignity is how we carry ourselves, okay? And and how how we treat other
48:55 people. So, we need to treat other people decently even though we may not respect them, okay? And the fact of the matter is, if you're an employee being fired or you're a supervisor firing an employee, you may you may not have respect for the other person. You may feel that they're not competent at their job. You may feel that they're not a particularly nice person. Okay? You don't need to respect someone you feel is not a good person or is, you know, subpar in what they're supposed to be doing. But you do need to behave with
49:31 dignity. So how you treat the other person is a reflection of you. Okay? And it's undignified to treat somebody less than decently. Okay? So I would say treat maintain your dignity and treat the other person with decency. Okay. Now I I think in many times what people mean when they say is treat other people with respect is they mean treat other people with decency. Okay. But uh one of the great things about English is it it is it is such a
50:07 precise language. I want to make sure there's an understanding of the difference between the two. Okay. So, a dignified exit, okay, preserves your reputation as an employee. A dignified approach to an employee that you're firing maintains your reput reputation as a competent leader. Okay? And that's that's hopefully how how this situation will end up. Okay? uh and and and as I mentioned before um
50:43 how uh how a uh the situ how how the termination of an employee is handled it can affect future reputation f your your ongoing reputations it can affect uh um uh uh references right so all of these things are at stake in how we conduct ourselves in in in a situation where somebody's being fired Okay. And so dignity and decency. All right. The two D's, I guess. I don't know. Um those those are what's demanded by the
51:18 situation. Okay. Um for the supervisor, the supervisor needs to communicate with the team in a thoughtful way. Okay. So, um, if someone has been fired, first of all, you should not communicate to the team that someone is being fired before that person knows that they've been fired. That is completely unjust to have that kind of whispering going on behind their back. Okay? However, it shouldn't fall on the employee who's been fired to have to tell the other
51:54 people that I've been fired. Okay? So it is the it is the oblig or the duty of the supervisor to to notify the team that you know such and such is no longer going to be working with us. Okay. And that decision should be or that information should be conveyed to the team without any breach of confidentiality. So again, it's it's it's part of the supervisor's responsibility to make sure that whatever information is given complies with the law and company policy. Okay.
52:30 Um and uh it may also um be required of the supervisor, especially if it's a layoff, to be clear that, you know, Kevin leaving the company is no reflection on Kevin's performance here. And I want to make that absolutely clear. Okay, Kevin is being laid off because that's what's required for the good of the company, but he leaves with uh a good reputation uh with with our you know best wishes for future professional success and uh
53:08 you know I would expect that you know everyone staying at the company uh will will uh you know understand that that Kevin leaves with his reputation. intact or however however you would choose to say that. Okay. But again, it the super it's the supervisor's job to set the expectations for how this is going to play out in the future after the person is gone. I I know for me, I I would I would have very low tolerance for a lot of whispering and gossiping about a person after
53:43 they're gone. Okay, that's that's not appropriate. Um, and most employees are not going to have the full story about why the person has been fired or laid off. And I think so I think that should be I I I would I certainly would make that clear. You um I I would adjure you know all the members of our team. Um you don't know the details of why this decision was made. It's not appropriate for them to be disclosed. that's a private matter between the company and you know such and such and so I would
54:18 just ask that you know we get on with our work um and and wish you know Kevin well um on his future endeavors. Okay. And then finally, um, for the employee, um, you know, look, it may take you a little bit of time to grieve the loss that you've suffered. Um, but, you know, you want to create a path with a plan forward. I'm sorry, a plan for a path forward, right? I mean, in the end, that's what we have to do. Life goes on. Okay? Being
54:53 fired, it is not the end of the world. There are many many examples of people who got fired uh who went on to have tremendously successful careers and you know if you read about famous people you will you will find they've they've been you know fired Walt Disney was fired for example one of the characters that I um you know that whose life not cares one of one of the great uh you know business leaders and uh creative people whose life I've studied in depth. Uh so a lot of people um who went on to tremendous
55:30 success have been fired and you know as as someone who's been fired part of your responsibility to yourself is to properly contextualize what's happened to you to learn what you can about it and then to plan your path forward. Uh, it may mean reaching out to your network of contacts, kind of seeing where things at, making some decisions about what you want to do. Maybe one of the reasons you were fired is when all is said and done, you just don't like the industry that you were in, and so
56:06 you need to make a change. Okay? And if that's the case, how are you going to make this change? So while uh the temptation may be to kind of wallow in our misery, right? Um planning our path forward can help us avoid doing that. It can help brighten our outlook and help us avoid feeling despair uh o over the situation. Now, I I think the final thing I want to say about this is from the employee standpoint is uh you I I
56:41 think it's you're going to have to make a decision in terms of balancing how many people you reach out to and and and and you know, not reaching out to anyone. Uh this is not something that you you want to uh uh sort of handle on your own and and cut yourself off from other people. You may feel betrayed, maybe rightly so. Uh and and and I I just don't want to deal with people anymore. Now, you know, again, you may need to grieve for a day, maybe a couple days or a few days, but uh you know, you you you need to reach
57:18 out to other people, people you can trust, uh people who will uh understand you, offer you compassion and empathy. Okay. On the other hand, reaching out to a huge number of people uh and and complaining about how you've been treated that that oftentimes only serves to deepen the wound and extend the time that it takes you to recover from this setback. And so again, you'll need to make a decision about uh to whom you're going to or with whom you're going to
57:53 communicate. And if to the extent that you can kind of set some ground rules. Look, I need your support. I I I I need some empathy, but I I don't want to get into a uh a cycle of, you know, rehashing all of the injustices that I felt uh over this or or please don't try and convince me that that this was unjust when in fact, you know, uh I should have seen it coming or or whatever you truly feel about the situation. Okay? So, plan the path forward. Make make an a a um a um
58:29 affirmative decision about with whom you're going to communicate and you know proceed on. Um and for the supervisor too um you know once once you've terminated someone and fulfilled your responsibilities to that person you know you need to go back to working with your team and uh I would say you know recommitting to helping your team members be as successful as possible right and and for the in dealing with the emotional toll on you the supervisor
59:06 the best thing you can do to the extent that you found yourself wanting in any area with respect to the person you fired is make a plan for how you're going to avoid doing that in the future. So, my thoughts on firing with humanity, uh I I would love to hear your thoughts and comments on what I said. Links to my social media will be in the show notes after the episode posts uh on YouTube. And so I invite them. Uh and I thank you all for for joining me, for watching. My live viewers especially, thank you. Um
59:42 this is my last show for this week. So next week on Monday at 10:00 a.m. is my show uh Trust and Estates Weekly. And do I have my do I have a guest next week? I'm trying to remember. Uh yeah, I I do not I do not have a guest next week. Um, so anyway, uh, Monday at 10 a.m. Pacific time, Trust in Estates Weekly. Tuesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show, Business Lessons from the Military. And then one week from today, I'll be back for the next episode of People Making Money. And then next
60:19 week as well, my on Thursday at 5:00 p.m. Pacific time is my every other week show, Jiggers's Place. I hope you'll join me there for a cocktail and a schmoo as we say when we talk about all the things that are not related to finances. So, thanks again for joining me. Wishing you a wonderful rest of the day and week and signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are