0:00 [music]
0:01 >> What do you want?
0:09 >> Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host Kevin Bemel and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and probate administration a lot from the perspective of professionals like myself and my guest Mark who this is what we do for a living. But also for those of you who this is not what you do all the time. Maybe you've got you know appointed as the executor you know and and and your parents will and now you're trying to deal with this
0:44 rather difficult process. So hopefully this will give you some information so that you can navigate it more successfully and and and talk to your various advisers in a better way. So so this morning I'm I'm pleased to introduce my guest and I'm going to mangle your name your last name Mark Marks Cionchulli is that?
1:08 >> That's close. Cionchulli that's very close. I
1:12 >> [laughter]
1:12 >> It could have been much worse.
1:15 >> You know I do my best but sometimes Mark is the founder of of Krem real estate and one of the one of the primary reasons I I I asked Mark to come on the show is to talk about this this issue of dealing with real estate that's owned by an estate or a trust. This it is not a typical situation of just oh you know I own a house and I want to sell it so you know there you go. So Mark and his team
1:52 are really experts in this field so I think you'll you'll get a lot out of this by by hearing Mark's thoughts on on how this whole realm of trusts and estates works. So, Mark, thanks so much for coming on the show today.
2:08 >> I'm happy to be here.
2:09 >> So, why don't we start out as I always do? Tell us a little bit about your background. How did you end up, you know, starting Cram and and getting involved in this this area, you know, of real estate practice?
2:23 >> Yeah, it's a little bit of a circuitous route for me to get to to real estate and it really started um my well, I started my career, I should say, in public accounting. And I was on the audit side. I would audit financial service companies. I would audit real estate companies. Um and eventually it it it became apparent to me that, you know, audit was not my calling in life. And so, it was interesting. It you know, don't get me wrong, it's very interesting learning about the companies
2:58 and and and how things work, but um I ended up going to law school and becoming a real estate transactional attorney. And you know, while I was a little bit closer to my kind of what what ended up being my calling, it wasn't quite there. And I essentially I stumbled onto the niche that I'm in now, which I've been in for the last 10 years or so. And I know that's true because my first
3:33 hire is about to celebrate her 10-year you know, anniversary with the company. So, I know I'm I know I'm close when I say 10 years, you know.
3:42 >> Right. I mean, by the way, that's that's that's a an accomplishment all in its own to have a you know, to be working with the same person for 10 years, right? That's that's fantastic.
3:52 >> And and our and our second one was not that far behind and they are both, you know, pillars in in in what we do and I'll, you know, get into that a little bit, but um very lucky to to have it and I and I take it that way. So, thank you. Um So, yeah, I, you know, I stumbled upon the fact that this niche exists. And and the niche that I'm referring to is real estate sales um in the probate and trust context, which is how I stumbled upon it and it's really how that has evolved over the
4:27 years for us is a is a little bit different. It's gone a little bit beyond that, but that is still very, very much our core our core business. Um It's super majority of our business. It's just it just has expanded a little bit beyond that. The way I frame it now is that we do real estate sales where there is an underlying legal administration, you know,
4:48 >> Right.
4:49 >> because we do probate trust, but we also do real estate sales in the receivership, partition, and bankruptcy space. So, you know, yeah.
4:57 >> So.
4:58 >> um so, yeah, I I stumbled upon um that this was a thing and it it it got my curiosity um and I ended up learning uh why it it's a specialty and the way that I, you know, kind of
5:15 >> [clears throat]
5:15 >> explain it these days is um it's highly there's a lot of compliance and there's a lot of uh kind of reoccurring issues that come up over and over and over. And I think those two things together, you know, is what makes up most specialties, I would say. And so so, yeah, that's um that's how I I ended up even getting into this space and it it attracted me. Um I I ended up learning more and then all of a sudden I'm I'm doing it doing it for real, you know?
5:50 >> Yeah. It's It's It's interesting cuz, you know, having been in the real estate business now for about let's see, it's been 40 years, I think, a little over 40 years for me. I I there's a lot of people who started out in law or accounting in one way or another who ended up getting into real estate. And I think it's because
6:12 >> [snorts]
6:12 >> uh you know, in their law or or real estate or accounting practice, they they were exposed to a lot of real estate transactions and and thought, "Well, this is It's not that I don't like what I'm doing, but this adds another element to it that makes my overall professional life more interesting." So, I I know that's that's the case for me. I was a law clerk and was on my way to potentially going to law school when I you know, started doing some real estate work and went, "Oh, wait, I think this is better." cuz I I like the legal stuff that I do, but this is this is like applied law almost.
6:48 >> Absolutely. I mean, you know, if if what you're doing in California it doesn't revolve around real estate, it it touches it probably more so than it does in a lot of other areas. And so, um there's some some ways there's no way around it. I I gravitate and have gravitated towards it my whole life. I mean, I remember my you know, grandfather explaining concepts of real estate to me when I was you my son's age, 8 years old, and you know, and um I I heard him and clearly some of it
7:23 stuck and you know, I think that it probably has something to do with the attraction kind of along the way.
7:28 >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you you talked about the two areas of your practice that are um that that differentiate it from kind of standard real estate, if you will, the compliance and the the sort of reoccurring issues. Why don't Why don't we start if with the compliance side? Talk if you would about what you mean by that, what's involved with that because from my perspective, I think that that is a a key aspect of this. And and by the way, it it makes sense that you're doing, you know, bankruptcies and receiverships. They are very very
8:04 similar, I think, to to probate even though they're not, you know, precisely the same thing.
8:10 >> Mhm. Sure. So, I guess the the key thing um is imagine you have this process that is the real estate transaction. It has to fit within this greater legal administration, which is the probate code typically. And and it could be the terms of the trust as well, could be some other things. But you have to have this alignment essentially between these two these two processes. Um and the real estate has to fit within this this greater administration. And so, what that typically entails
8:46 um are timing constraints, notice constraints, um co- uh contractual language. So, you have to have all these little pieces um again, fit um you have to have your real estate transaction fit all these other little pieces that in order to be compliant with with the probate code typically. Um and I can give some, you know, some real life examples if you'd like. I mean, um
9:14 >> Yeah, please do.
9:15 >> Okay, great. Um so, whenever there is a transaction, first of all, you have these transactions that that don't have to go to court. I mean, there's there's like this spectrum of simple trust administration all the way to court-confirmed sales. And so, there's this spectrum, right? And there are there are, depending on the type of the of administration, the the transaction becomes, you know, a little bit more structured in this compliance and a little bit less. And so, in most of the transactions, you have to
9:50 have notices going out to to beneficiaries at very certain times in order to inform them of what's going on. Um you have a personal representative that is the decision maker, um but they have an obligation to to inform interested parties, beneficiaries of kind of these key points throughout the transaction. So, that's a really good example that you see on just about every transaction. Um and yeah, and sometimes it's a lot it's a lot more than that. Like if you you people have have heard of court confirmed sales and sometimes, you know,
10:25 the there is a misunderstanding that all probate sales require court confirmation, which is uh to expand on that a little bit, um that is when essentially, you go through the sale process, you have the deal in place, uh you go to this court hearing, um where the judge reviews the terms of the sale and either confirms it and there's also this other component called overbidders where they can show up and essentially have this little auction type process play out, which is, you know, not super familiar
11:01 um and and common for real estate, but that is that is kind of your more um involved type of of of probate or trust sale that plays out. And it can and then it can happen um for for either. It just depends on the circumstances.
11:17 >> Mhm.
11:17 >> [clears throat]
11:18 >> So.
11:19 >> Yeah. I mean, you know, as as someone who acts as a personal representative, right? So, you know, I've had what's called full authority where at least in in theory or legally, I can sell a property whenever I, you know, whenever I want to. And then I've also had uh cases where it's limited authority where for certain aspects in in one for, you know, selling property owned by the estate, I have to get court approval. And but highlighting one of the things you said a moment ago, even when I have full authority, uh I I still want to make sure that I'm not
11:54 doing something that, you know, a beneficiary is is going to get angry about, right? So, while I may not be required to notify them, um often times I will have my lawyer uh file up what's called a a NOPA, a notice of proposed action, right? In order to make sure that interested parties know what's going on. And then they can object if they want to, and I can deal with it then. And if they don't object, then in essence, they're they're prevented from doing so down the road. And this is nothing that happens
12:29 in a conventional real estate transaction.
12:33 >> Right. And and to to tie back this compliance topic that we're talking about right now. And I and I I really do think of it as as a spectrum. And and you're highlighting two lanes of of probate sales that are super common, right? That are somewhere full authority is towards the more simple end of the spectrum, limited authority probate sales to the more uh involved I don't I don't want to say complex. It's just more involved, right? Um
13:01 >> Right. Mhm.
13:01 >> And and um and one can go to the other, you know, if something happens like you you mentioned a notice of proposed action goes out, someone doesn't like what they're hearing for whatever reason, they have the the ability to object. That's typically what takes it from not full to limited, but it it it it definitely diverts the path into a more of of the path that would be a limited authority probate um in terms of the real estate sale uh part of it. So, yeah, you know, there is this spectrum and and it's not there's not
13:36 perfectly defined lanes, um at least all of the way, you know? And so, you can have simple trust administration, you have a full authority probate administration, um you have your limited authority probate, you have uh you know, somewhere in in along this spectrum you have contested um either probate or trust administration where beneficiaries are just disagreeing and therefore it's taking it more likely to the more convoluted, complex end of the spectrum. So, yeah, you know, you try and lay out your lanes as as clearly as
14:12 possible and and from a real estate perspective, um after years of experience, right? We have we have laid out steps to each of these different uh types of transactions. And we certainly it certainly can go according to plan and we've laid it out based on experience on what is most likely, um and then we also are are ready for it to change, you know, because that is that is kind of the reality of and the dynamics of being in any legal administration. Right. And and so, um so
14:48 yes, um compliance is a big thing and you can as long as you know the core components to these administrations, you can align a real estate sale um accordingly, but with a disclaimer, things can change.
15:06 >> And it it and and and I think you know, you it's like you led in perfectly to my next question, which is when one of those um situ- sort of, you know, unplanned for situations comes up, and as the real estate agent, you know, in the transaction, how do you see your role, right? You're not, for example, you're not the one who's filing, you know, the petition for confirmation of sale or the or the or the notice of proposed action. The lawyers are doing that. I'm not doing it either, by the way, right? But But when, you know, when a beneficiary objects or
15:41 something like that. So, how do you see your role in and then, you know, still, you know, kind of shepherding that transaction along?
15:53 >> I I see my role not too different from from the personal representative. And And what I mean by that is a is a neutral. I am there, my team is there, to do what's best for the estate and not what's best for any one individual beneficiary interested party. And so, like, I try to come in and prove that, especially in administrations or litigation type situations where there's just not a lot of trust anyway, right? And so, I have we we got to prove ourselves that, hey, we're we're going to do we're neutral, we're here to do
16:28 what's best for the estate as a whole. Um and so, you know, I I I believe, you know, the question is, what do you do when something uh comes about, right, to put put things on tilt, right?
16:44 >> And one thing we're always ready to do, and we never know, for the most part, we never know when it's going to happen. We have to be ready to lay out what we've done, what we've advised, and why, uh because we never know when something something comes up, someone's not happy with something, someone objects, um when we're going to have to prepare what's called a a declaration, which is just, you know, a sequence of events, right? And And supporting decisions along the way. Like, this is that is something, you know,
17:20 if you talk to someone in kind of the typical real estate world, they're not I mean, they can do it, absolutely, but um you know, I don't think they're as as aware and and um kind of ready to do it as we are because we just never know when it's going to when it's going to come about. And it it could be it could be necessary.
17:44 >> Right. Absolutely. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back for some more.
17:48 >> Great.
17:52 >> When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step. Magnum Properties Inc., turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396
18:29 or visit magnumprops.com.
18:35 >> So, we we we talked about the compliance side. So, let's let's switch over now to the the sort of routine uh side. You said there's there's a number of recurring issues um that that that you deal with. Uh you know, kind of peel peel back the curtain on on those issues um you know, I think this is one of the things that most um most distinguishes a real estate company like yours that specializes in this area from a general
19:11 real estate company.
19:13 >> Sure. So, some of the more common ones and and you have to think about, you know, what are these what are the realities that were the process that's going on in the background, right? Typically, if it's we're talking about probate or trust administration, someone has passed away, someone's life is being left behind and that that materializes in a lot of different ways and one of the ways is is personal property. This is so straightforward to us, but probably again a little different than
19:48 the typical real estate industry where you're having to think about, all right, what do we do with all of these all the personal property that is left behind? And so we're we're often called upon to help um inventory and bring in specialty vendors and try and salvage value whether that's through estate sales of one one way or another whether it is um
20:23 donating is is usually the preference next and then whatever is left is disposed of. So, we need to just you typically empty out the the property and that's you know, it's not it's not brain surgery. It's just something that we have we see on a repeatable basis.
20:41 >> Well, normally, right? People are taking if it's a house, they're taking the stuff with them. So, that you don't have to worry about that at all.
20:48 >> Right. I I I think, you know, probably in the at least in the traditional residential realm, you know, it's decluttering and staging. You know, I don't have as many of those conversations as as, you know, probably through traditional realtor, although sometimes we do. Um And if the situation is conducive to it, you know, those conversations can be really valuable, but like often that's not what we're That's not what we're talking about, you know.
21:17 >> Yeah. And you know, the other thing that comes to mind is um are title-related issues. You know, we probably see more wrinkles um on on title than the typical realtor as well. Um again, this is a transi- transitionary period. Um this is you know, someone has owned typically owned these properties for years and you know, again, with an administration now in place and perhaps um interested parties, beneficiaries
21:52 claiming interests or or whatnot, you have one of the key things to being successful in selling real estate in this context is to get into the into title as early as possible. You want to not only understand it, but if there are issues there, you want to have addressed it and resolved it before that property ever gets on the market. Um and I think that's a very critical piece of advice that I can, you know, pass along to anyone um that's going to take on um a sale in my position or any- anyone's position that has some sort of involvement with
22:28 the real estate. Um you know, we see um things from from lis pendens, you know, which are um [clears throat] a cloud on title where someone essentially claiming some sort of ownership interest in that, right? And that is a that is that is going to preclude in most cases a sale unless it is withdrawn or if it's not withdrawn voluntarily whoever filed it, um there are other more timely and costly, you know, things that have to be done to remove to remove stuff like that. Um
23:05 And so we see, you know, all kinds of uh interesting title situations. We deal with um you know, sometimes we're dealing with notices of default where um someone has passed away, right? Maybe there was a reverse mortgage. Um You know, maybe some another scenario where just affairs have not been handled, right? Someone has passed away and
23:28 >> [laughter]
23:31 >> I'm I'm I'm laughing because right after this I get to go to uh you know, beautiful Menifee, California to deal with just such a situation. Right? Where the the affairs of this trust have not been attended to and you know, the the lender is is behind I think 6 months or something and and he's threatening to foreclose, right? And you know, I was recently appointed by the court. You know, and so I was like, welcome to you know, welcome to this world.
23:59 >> Yeah.
24:00 >> Right? And and it's got to be dealt with um because but in the in the meantime there was no one there really taking care of these things, right? There wasn't a homeowner. In this case it's not it's not a home, but it's it's it's commercial land, but just you know, no one was paying attention to the store as they say. So.
24:20 >> Right. Yeah. And and that that is something we see we're almost handling at least one of those things at all times throughout the year. And so um we've become really adept at handling that. In fact, I just served as a expert witness on a slander of title case where I had to opine um a diminution of value or just a general impact that a NOD has notice of default has on on on a on a property. So, yeah, I mean those are you know, the great thing about being in this
24:57 space is it takes you to so many different areas and you become proficient um at at handling some of these things that you probably just wouldn't see very often in the normal real estate world. Yeah.
25:14 >> Yeah, so talk if you would we we've kind of been, you know, focusing on, you know, residential real estate that probably is the more common category um because, you know, when when someone passes away, you know, the one piece of real estate they they're most likely to have is is a home or a condo or whatever, but but there were what experiences have you had with other types of real estate, commercial or or I don't know, you know, I don't time shares or you know, talk talk to us about some of those other types which um what are just in general
25:52 probably less familiar to people, um but also I don't know, I I at least in my experience they they can be more complex, um but I'm I'm I'm curious to hear about your experiences.
26:04 >> Sure, yeah, so we um our company has a separate commercial real estate uh sales division and so we do see um a lot of that and and you know, being in kind of my chair I'm I'm overseeing all of it and and um you know, I think the thing for commercial real estate that is most helpful to our clients are a couple things. Um you know, you have you usually have this person who throughout their life, right, was uh if if if commercial real estate is
26:40 involved, um was an investor of not just one, but typically multiple pieces of of commercial real estate and they were the ones familiar with it, they were the ones maybe not managing it, but like and sometimes they were. Uh but, you know, they were the ones making these decisions to to invest, to improve, to retain it, to do all these things. And then you have typically the next generation that's may or may not have, right, any knowledge, interest, right, in in commercial real estate. And so,
27:15 what I found is is super helpful, um is that we come in and instead of just um opining on value, hey, this is this is what this property is worth, uh we try to create a like a decision framework for them to really help them understand what this property is. What does it What does it mean to own this property on an ongoing basis? And what are What are my options um with it? And And what are those options, you know, should I select one versus another? What What are What are the pros and cons, you know, of of of taking
27:52 those options. So, that's when especially with commercial real estate, that's more of the approach um that we take typically because um and even if they do have experience some experience in commercial real estate, it's still helpful to have this almost like memo type work product that we prepare
28:12 >> Mhm.
28:12 >> that just outlines what it is, how it's operating, where it's, you know, our the perceived deficiencies are, where the perceived opportunities are, um of course, what it's worth, what are the pros of continuing to hold this property, what are the What are the cons? What are the pros and cons of of, you know, uh of selling it and and then that way they're Hopefully, we get to the point where they can make an informed [clears throat] decision and feel really good about it.
28:41 >> Right. And and the they, of course, it could be, you know, the beneficiaries of a trust, but it could also be the personal representative who's who has to make these decisions in essence on behalf of the beneficiaries, right?
28:54 >> Exactly right. Yeah. And and I should I should say, right? The personal representative, that is the ultimate decision-maker. It's just sometimes, you know, beneficiaries are more involved, sometimes they they want to know more about what's going on, and sometimes that's not the case. Um yeah.
29:12 >> So, and this again, you you you perfectly lead into my next question.
29:17 >> [laughter]
29:18 >> So, how do you handle a situation where uh I'm trying to I'm trying to think of how to best explain this cuz I've I've had this happen where uh you know, one of the beneficiaries, or at least one, like they have a thing for a particular property.
29:39 >> [laughter]
29:39 >> Either, you know, I want that property or I want to, you know, get rid of that property. It's not based on any, you know, real estate analysis. It's like I I have I have a um an estate where um there's kind of two personal residences, um but one is the one where um you know, he lived when his parents were married, they're now divorced. It's like he's, you know, when I was talking to him about it, he's like, "Just sell it. I don't care. [laughter] I don't I don't want to own it, right? Cuz I think it's because of the memories it brings, right? Yeah. And
30:16 so, I'm just I'm curious, you know, what kind of experience you have in in those kinds of situations and and how you may have, you know, dealt with them.
30:26 >> Yeah, well, having opposing perspectives and preferences from beneficiaries, if anyone, you know, has any experience in this space, that is not a novel concept, right? We all deal with with varying personalities, you know, um varying perspectives, um you know, what people are ultimately pushing for and and and not and and so in those cases you know, I again, I go back to okay, what do I believe
31:01 is best for the estate and I try to run it through, you know, from a financial perspective, from a regulatory perspective and I say regulatory, you know, um if there if if there are tenants and it could be even a tenant for a house, right? It like there is a regulatory perspective in California,
31:20 >> For sure.
31:20 >> and you know, from a tax perspective and um you know, we're of course working with all kinds of professionals to um to ensure that we're, you know, we're interpreting tax perspectives correctly, but one of the one of the big key defining characteristics in probate and trust administration or when someone passes away is a stepped-up basis and that is a key benefit to being able to sell a property that is and not have to pay capital gains taxes.
31:54 >> Mhm.
31:55 >> At its simplest, right? Um and so you know, I go back holistically, okay, you know, quieting all the voices in the room, what do I believe, running through all these filters, is the right thing to do, um is best for the estate or trust and that's what I usually come back and try to uh ground myself in and lead with in terms of my recommendations and then ultimately, you know, it's the personal representative's decision and and that can, you know, entail, again, going back
32:33 to all these personalities and perspectives and desires, that can entail a lot, but it's ultimately, you know, on the personal representative to take all that in consideration and make a decision. I mean, it's easy It's It's easy for things It's It's There's a lot of things that come up in administration um that lend itself to putting the brakes on progress. And so, you know, all the professionals in the room work together to navigate, you know, this progress.
33:02 >> Right. Right. Let's take another quick break and we'll come back for some more.
33:07 >> Great.
33:11 >> Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Barbeaulet, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time
33:47 searching. So, we we've talked about the the the two broad categories that differentiate, you know, working in, you know, trusts and estates or or as you, you know, kind of court procedure connected real estate. Um Uh other thoughts you have on on being in this realm that, I don't know, maybe don't fit into either category nicely or just, you know, sort of, as we used to say in the military, you know, kind of kind of saved rounds, cuz then cuz then I I've got another topic I I want to
34:23 address with you, but I want to make sure we cover this fully first.
34:29 >> Um I really enjoy working in this I mean, it's a um collaborative space. You know, you again, I alluded to this just previously. You are usually working alongside some high-caliber professionals in order to, you know, accomplish this [snorts] this goal of administering an an estate, which entails all types of things. And so, you have this typically you have this great little brain trust going on and you're you're constantly solving problems and making progress. And you know, you learn from
35:05 each other and and um there's just a lot of a lot of you get exposed to a lot of good people and you and you learn about a lot of different things that I really personally um enjoy about being in this space.
35:18 >> Yeah. I mean and I mean that's interesting because I don't know if you I don't know if I mentioned this to you previously, but I had a commercial real estate company here in LA for 20 years before I joined the Navy. And I ended up doing quite a bit of work in the the trust and probate conservatorship area. Um a lot of it was valuation work and and and management work. And I that's what I found is there's just a lot of great people working in this area. And this is not to say that people
35:53 in other areas don't have a very strong client focus, but somehow you know, you you you mentioned this at the beginning. The fact that there's been a tragic event tied to our work or almost always is. I don't know, it somehow seems to focus people more directly on you know, dealing with the situation from a a client benefit with that client benefit focus. I'm I'm not doing as well, but
36:25 >> Yeah, I I I would say the super majority of the time that is that is our experience. It is a collaborative effort working together. Sometimes it is the opposite and that is just the nature of you know, really when it when it goes from administration to litigation. Um and but it's it's still it's still this this the industry, this space that we're in. I mean, there are less sharp elbows, you know, than it wouldn't appear in in um other other industries and and I
37:01 really, you know, I I really like that about this space.
37:05 >> Yeah. Yeah, me too. So, I'm going to I'm going to shift gears here a little bit on you. Krem also has a property management company and it is is is I understand it. And I feel like I need to give you, you know, fair time because one of the sponsors of the show is is a, you know, property management company who specializes in handling properties going through probate or held by a trust. But I'm I'm curious to know your perspective on the differences, again, between just sort of, you know, straight property management versus managing a property
37:43 that's, you know, involved, again, in this legal process, right? I mean, maybe not so much so for a trust. Could that just could be ongoing. But if a property's in probate, it's subject to a legal process a lot like a receivership. Um and so I'm I'm I'm curious to get your perspective on that.
38:02 >> So, I would say the one of the defining characteristics that seems to surface a lot is the need for interim property management. And um and yeah, I mean, like most of the time when someone in the traditional real estate space is looking for property management. They're They usually have some mid-to-long-term kind of timeline. And not to say that that doesn't happen in the trust and estates space, but again, maybe Um and and typically, they're still
38:37 trying to figure out what the objectives are. So, um and sometimes that ends up being, "You know what? I just need I need this managed. I need this do as much as you can to stabilize the operations of this property for 3, 6, 9, 12 months, and then it's going to be sold or, you know, it's going to be distributed and, you know, who who who knows what the, you know, beneficiary what what direction they want to go after that." And so, you know, that that is a that is a difference because I and it as I'm
39:14 aware of that in the traditional space, not a lot of property management companies want to take on such a heavy lift for such a short amount of time. Um you know, going back to another kind of defining characteristic of California is is is regulation. And boy, is the regulation layered um for
39:39 >> [laughter]
39:40 >> You can say
39:42 >> for property managers. I mean, for the last 6 years, every It seems like about every quarter, there are just new layers of regulation coming. And, you know, while that isn't unique to the trust and estates space, uh it applies to both regardless. And now you have these extra layers of compliance on top of administration compliance, right? And so, um just having it all straight, having a good uh you know, real estate attorney, having
40:17 good professionals around you to help you navigate this. I mean, we've we have an of of counsel that we for our property management company because we just have to. I mean, there's just there's the stakes are so high. I can't have notices. I can't have certain documents going out the door without having, you know, an attorney's eye signing off on them.
40:39 >> Yep.
40:40 >> Yep.
40:40 >> Yeah.
40:41 >> Yeah.
40:42 >> I I I mean, you know, and that that certainly matches my experience. And and and I think the other thing I would say is all of this is being done if it's a probate at least at least functionally or or or I, you know, theoretically under, you know, court observation, court supervision, right? So, there's all this compliance, but then there's also this whole forum that it's if you're not in compliance, you know, someone can file an ex parte application
41:13 >> [laughter]
41:13 >> and all of a sudden the court is looking at you like, "I thought you were professional. What are you doing?" You know, kind of I think that's a that's a tough environment in which to operate.
41:23 >> Right. And some of these legal administrations, I'm I'm thinking specifically here, you know, receiverships, refereeships, which is uh uh part of partition actions is, you know, there are monthly reports to the court where we have to explain what we did, why we did it. Um and so, yeah, there there's there is a a lot of visibility on on what you're doing. So, you just you you have to be really tight in in how you operate. And so
41:56 >> So, but we're we're kind of getting to the end of our time here, but because you you have your your in-house team and it's and it sounds like these most of these or a lot of these people they've been with you for a while. I I again, I'm curious to know your thoughts. What What do you see as being the um I don't know, the characteristics, the skills, um the qualities of people who who do well in this environment, I guess. It Yeah, I think that that is the question.
42:30 >> That's good. I love this question because I I think of this, right, a a lot as I as I reflect on our team, as I reflect on how we operate business in the way that we do, which I'm constantly, you know, I'm I'm constantly coming back to to to try and refine what we do, um and and apply what we've learned, you know, in the last however many days, weeks, months. Um I think high attention to detail is like almost
43:05 non-negotiable for the people that are in this space because of all the things that we've been talking about. And so that that is a common thread from everybody.
43:16 >> [laughter]
43:18 >> Um I think
43:21 >> [sighs and gasps]
43:23 >> you know, we deal with a lot of personalities, and so someone that again can can can lead with um be the calming voice, be the voice of reason, lead with we're doing what's best for the whole, not what's best for the pieces, and be able to articulate like that, um you know, confidently and accurately is is something that I see in a lot of our people. Um Those are Those are the two things that I that are kind of sticking out right right now, yeah.
43:55 >> Yeah, I I Yeah, I I I mean, I think that that that makes a lot of sense. And you know, for the people who are who are watching, who you know, may need to you know, hire a a bring in a real estate company, that's that's aside from my own knowledge. That's why I asked that question because, you know, giving them some guidance on, you know, who to look for. I mean, I can say this, right? Cuz I'm the host, you know, call Mark, right?
44:21 >> [laughter]
44:22 >> Then you don't have to worry about knowing what, you know, who people are and what they need to be. But behind that is the thoughtfulness about who you have in your organization and how that aligns with, you know, the responsibilities that people are putting in your hands. And I think that's, you know,
44:42 >> [clears throat]
44:43 >> for for thoughtful advisors in this space, that is what, you know, that's what they want to know, right?
44:50 >> Yeah, and and, you know, sometimes I will be interviewing with particular clients, prospective clients at that point, right?
45:00 >> Mhm.
45:00 >> And they but they will want to speak to the neighborhood specialist who, you know, usually are very, very successful in their areas. They will want to speak to, um, you someone who specializes in the space like me, and then there might might be others, right? And and I've gotten the question, you know, why should I hire you versus the next person?
45:27 >> Mhm.
45:28 >> And this kind of just like organically happened in one conversation and now I come back to it a lot. And I was and I and I say, the way that the business finds us is is it is different typically than most people in real estate. We are we are usually referred, endorsed by uh, high-caliber professionals. Discerning professionals that are just not going to entrust their clients with is anybody. And I I think, you know, I take that as
46:05 um as a very compelling um you know, persuasive thing that uh I I just don't think, you know, and and perhaps there the the you know, professionals are are are in or in or in endorsing multiple people, but like we are very fortunate and very lucky, but also through a lot of hard and good quality work, that's why we're in this position. And so, I think that I always say I think that speaks uh volumes, and I I I can't I don't think I could even give a reason that would top that reason. I can give other reasons, but I don't think I think that's in my opinion, you know, the most important.
46:42 >> I I I in that I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, the the the same is true in my practice, you know, as recently as yesterday, I got a call from a fellow, and he said, you know, such and such it was a lawyer that I know said, you know, I said I I told her I needed a professional fiduciary, and she said, "Call you." Right? And and it wasn't it wasn't really even a a sales call in in that sense, right? To to have had her endorsement um put the conversation in a different context. Uh I think for both of us, by the way.
47:18 >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's there's been I I can remember the sensation of uh and this has happened a few times, litigious situation, you know, opposing counsel, uh opposing interests in parties, and we got to find someone we got to work with. You know, we can't agree on much, and someone says, "Well, here's who I would want to work with." And then the other side's like, "Oh, well, that actually works for for me, too." And so, and then we get a call. Or it's a mediation, and the and the mediator steps out of the room and says, "Hey, I got this thing, you know, I'm putting
47:54 forth your name. Are you interested? Here's the scenario." I mean, there's no better There's no better compliment in my opinion than getting those calls.
48:02 >> Exactly. Exactly. Well, that that's a good note on which to to wrap this up. Mark, thank you so much for being on the show today and talking with me about these these issues. You real estate, it it is often times such a huge portion of an estate. It and so it becomes a critical critical aspect of administration and and and you know, for those of you who are watching or listening, you can see that that that this is an area that that Mark knows cold. He probably wouldn't be so bold as to say he knows everything, but but you know,
48:38 you're going to have to get creative to uh to surprise him, I think. So.
48:44 >> Yeah, we're we're we're resourceful. We've, you know, there's even we see new things all the time. But we're resourceful in in our approach and that that has been refined and I and I guess I just wanted to say this, if anyone is curious to talk to me one-on-one, like I want to offer that opportunity by just reaching out. I want to I want to help people should they want and have a desire to talk to me about any of this.
49:10 >> Absolutely. So, Mark, I'll put your contact information it'll be in the show notes. So, for those of you you are probably watching this on YouTube, Spotify or Apple podcast. Just look right below, you'll see Mark's contact information there. Feel free to reach out to him and and and know that you are going to be very very well taken care of. So, just real quickly wrapping up here. My my slate of shows, Monday like today, Trusts and Estates weekly 10:00 a.m. Pacific time. Tuesdays at 10:00 a.m.
49:45 Pacific time, Business lessons from the military. Wednesdays at 10:00 p.m. I'm sorry, not 10:00 p.m. Have I been saying p.m.? 10 a.m. All the shows are at 10 a.m. Pacific time. So Wednesdays is people making money and then the every other Thursday at 5 p.m. Pacific time. Oh boy, I'm just walking all over my words. 5 p.m. Pacific time
50:10 >> [laughter]
50:10 >> is my show Jiggers is place. We sit back, we have a cocktail and talk about all kinds of non-finance related issues. So Thank you very much for joining my guest Mark and me today. Hope you got a lot out of it. If you have questions, comments, criticisms, feel free to post those, you know, and and I'm I'm always happy to to see those, read them, and respond to them. If it's something from Mark, you know, tag Mark on it and he'll pick it up and respond as well. So Mark, once again, thank you so much for joining me
50:45 today. And that just leaves me to sign off by telling and reminding you, Marie Darling, you are my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.