0:00 uh although the system takes a minute or so to do its thing there we go okay and good afternoon and welcome to people making money one of the way to wow shows I'm your host Kevin bemel and I'm glad to be here and and thank you for tuning in across all our social media networks my guest today is Lori Israel and before I introduce Lori formally I do want to
0:36 take just a minute to remind you that we are here every Wednesday at 12 30 p.m Pacific Time 3 30 p.m eastern time and of course an hour in for Central and uh mountain time is is the fourth one and to be honest with you I can't tell you what time it is in Hawaii right now um I can't however tell you that Thailand is 14 hours ahead of us I just looked that up so so our purpose in being here each Wednesday is to talk about how we can
1:12 grow our professional lives and how we can do better with our personal finances wealth building and and and all of those related topics now most of you know that everything I do is based on the three pillars of attainment and we're over here in the in the Pursuits pillar in the finance realm but we also deal with topics in relationships and with our self-identity and and this is one of those shows what I think we're going to end up combining a lot of those subjects so I do want to to get get to my to my
1:47 guest now and give us as much time as possible so Lori Israel has been a lawyer for uh 35 years I believe it is um she started out in tax law and and then moved into the family law realm now before those of you who have been through a divorce get your backs all up tight Lori's practice and and this is one of the things I find Most Fascinating about her Lori's practice has really been geared toward how do I how does she keep marriages together how does she maintain
2:24 uh relationships which I I think probably even Lori would agree with this is not always the focus of lawyers in the family law realm she has a particular specialty in prenuptial agreements um and and I'm I brought up the name of her book so I would so I wouldn't give you the wrong name so Laurie is also the author of the generous prenup how to support your marriage and avoid the pitfalls and I will put a link to uh Lori's book in the show notes if you're interested in in reading it you'll be
3:01 able to you know click right through to get a copy so so Lori uh thank you so much for coming on the show today and welcome to people making money thank you for having me um I'm very much looking forward to having this chat with you good good so so Lori if you if you don't mind um before we get into um your topic which is marriage and money which which is an incredibly um important but also I think difficult subject to deal with would you take a couple of minutes and and tell us how
3:37 did you get what what led you to decide to become a lawyer and and how did you end up in this realm of of family law but family law that's designed to help people keep their marriages together um I always interested in law and I when I graduated college it was long enough ago so that it was very very rare that women went to law school and I I literally did not know what a lawyer did you know I had no idea when I graduated college and I started getting very interested in in my 20s and started reading and realized a thought I realized that it would be of
4:12 great interest to me um so I took the leap and went to law school um you know hoping that I'd really like it and it turns out it was perfect for me I love it I've loved every year of it it hasn't always been easy sometimes it's very stressful there's a lot of responsibility involved a lot of work lawyers work tend to work 40 to 60 to 70 hours a week with very little time off but it's it's work I love and part of it is that I just find the law so interesting and what we do as lawyers is we combine what the law is which relates to human relationships and human values
4:48 to to the people that we meet and basically lawyers really try to help people that's what we try to do and what happened is in the beginning I I got very interested in tax law and loved it um and then I started doing everything and I started seeing what I what stuck in in you know once I threw all the spaghetti on the wall and I also did I found that I really like to do a Estate Planning and I had in law school I took every tax course in every estate planning course you could take I didn't take family law and I no idea would be a family lawyer and that that happened
5:24 later um I I was invited to a group of women that met monthly to discuss legal topics and they were all turned out to be all family lawyers they will they did divorce mostly and I had no idea what they were talking about it was like a foreign language and they they talked me through my first case they even one of them even met me at the court to show me where this Draconian for that this this um courtroom this particular when we had to go through the basement and a whole bunch of file rooms she showed me where it was so I wouldn't look too stupid and you know basically I shouldn't say this to to the public listening but when
6:00 you're a lawyer you know a lot but you don't hardly know anything in your first 10 years and you have to stay one step ahead of your client and hope you do it right and hope you know that that it you can really do this satisfactorily and confidently um so over the years I I practiced a lot of estate planning my clients started dying so there was also probate which um I found interesting um but said it kind of weighed on me after a while because I knew these people really well they were my clients but some of them for many years and then and I started doing divorce law and then
6:36 started seeing what uh first of all my theory in divorce law even if I'm representing a client I go for fairness you know not to just take advantage not to just get the you know everything you can get and fight for everything but to look at the whole picture and luckily in divorce law the the the case law and sometimes the statutes are very well developed so you kind of know how it's supposed to end up so you don't have to fight so much you can just kind of Let It Go the way it's supposed to end up and that's good because the cases are
7:11 based on um judge's analysis of real life situations and they basically answer what's fair and Equitable and that's what you want to get to so I found a lot of satisfaction in doing um and doing divorce law and doing it so people it help people rather than hurt people um and then I started I started getting prenuptial agreement work and it was representation where there'd be another attorney on the other side and they were just awful the the anguish that the clients felt um these are people that loved each
7:46 other wanted to get married and then all of a sudden the attorneys are supposed to be fighting about money where somebody is basically taking away marital rights and um just at the point where you're getting married and so um after doing that for a while I thought there has to be a better way and I wrote an article um I think it was in 2008 that kind of went about viral it was called 10 Things I Hate About prenuptial agreements because I'm a lawyer and I wrote it and and I started getting more and more cases so I started getting more experience and more knowledge um and then finally I wrote that book and you know basically I am I
8:23 am a anti prenup lawyer um I think that it should be avoided if possible I think in general for first marriages it's not good sometimes it's helpful and sometimes it's necessary in first marriages but usually not I it can be quite harmful not only in the way it's negotiated but the terms which can Fester it's often very good for people who have children and have some money in second marriages and it can actually help the marriage remain peaceful and so I started representing people with that framework and also started doing mediation which is really great because
8:59 you're working with both parties I I do this mediation all over the country because mediators are allowed to mediate all over the country and so I work with with clients the couple and we talk about the terms we have a bunch of sessions to try to figure out the terms it ends in a term sheet I actually select a list of attorneys that I think will be good and not blow it out of the water for them and usually my lists are collab are people that I choose among collaborative divorce attorneys because they're very sensitive about marriage so it's just been a really interesting
9:35 career and um it's nice to be able to be helping people get through money issues at the very beginning of a marriage and get through them well so that they still love each other and they still care for each other and what they've decided in the to happen in their prenup is caring and fair on both ends so that's kind of how I got into it yeah so all I do is prenup snap so and when we were talking before this is one of the things that um candidly surprised me is when you said
10:10 you're you're basically an anti you know prenup lawyer so here's someone who who specializes in something and in a way is looking to talk herself out of business right yeah yeah why why do you um think that in general especially in first marriages um people should not um do a prenupt okay um and I would assume that means even in a situation where you have one spouse who's maybe you know much better off financially or one potential spouse I should I guess I should say who's much better off
10:45 financially than the others there's this imbalance right yes you know marriage you have to you have to assume when people get married they're providing equal as we say in lawyer talk consideration for each other you know and and I'm very rarely encountering people that are men that are marrying rich women because they're richer women that are married men that have plenty people marry people because they really love each other and that's that doesn't just have to do with money that has to do with everything people add different things with foot to marriages for instance in many marriages
11:20 the male it has more of a career makes more money and the women maybe has a side career or a half-time career a career that's not as pushed forward and does more homemaking and child care and that's considered in all states an equal partnership so marriage has the the Affinity the friendship it has the sexuality of the family it has the money it has the building of security and all those things are really important and when you start monkeying around with the security part of it it can make it's not fair and it can make people really feel
11:55 bad um and usually in first marriages there's not people haven't accumulated that much of course people are getting married later now they're getting married most of my first marriage clients are in late 20s or early 30s and so they have accumulated some money but and and you know maybe not a whole lot um but you know start starting to have rules about separating money is going to take that third stool out of the marital relationship and weaken it because the marital is building a Financial Security in most marriages is really important
12:31 for both sides and especially when there's one side that comes from a more wealthy family and one comes from a less wealthy family it's more important for that second person um but it's it's really it's generally important and so mucking around with that in the beginning of a marriage um is it it can lead to unfairness and it can also lead to resentment where it's not in marriage I think that you have to put in a hundred percent and once you start taking things away like let's say there's a side business that's a separate business and they spend time with it it's it's almost like having you
13:07 know being a golf widow or having an affair or something it takes the attention away from the marriage and marriage is is is is is difficult but worth it but it needs a hundred percent commitment and that's what marriage is that's what people need yeah so that's that's kind of why why I'm an anti-preneur yeah and and I think that makes a lot of sense by the way um so um going beyond the issue of a prenup since our topic is marriage and money so and let's if if we for for now let's
13:43 stay with the issue of a first marriage in general how do you what do you recommend in terms of how a couple handle their finances I.E you know should they have a joint checking account should they have separate should they have a joint and separate checking accounts you know how do they divide up expenses what do you recommend in that that whole realm okay um I I think what works well is to have um is to to have joint and separate accounts although with an understanding that the separate accounts are also joint accounts and they might even be technically joint account but the check
14:19 might say one name I think it's good for people to have some privacy in in their spending I I think it's it's Overkill maybe to have everybody know about everything you spend things on maybe there can be a you know 300 or 400 rule if you're intend to spend some something on something more than that you discuss it with the other person but what what what all laws in all states say that the what you're earning during your marriage is is joint it's it's marital and so whether it's in a joint account or a separate account um you know the joint accounts they're doing household things it's it's also
14:54 some people say well the the person they should both contribute in equal portions or in unequal portions based on their income to to expenses and that doesn't work out because the person who has less income which is usually a woman but sometimes the guy if they have to pay a certain percentage towards the expenses that they're going to be left with nothing much less and so that doesn't work out so the idea of having everything you earn during your marriage shared I think is an important ideal and that ideal is embedded in the laws of all States
15:29 including community property States like California and Equitable property States like Massachusetts where I am it I mean there's a balance to what you're recommending and one of the things that occurred to me is you know if a spouse wants to buy a birthday gift for example and then they they you know probably want that to be a surprise right so if you have a separate account you wouldn't be able to do that it's not bad to have separate accounts yeah and and would you say the same thing about uh credit cards um and those sort of things or yeah I
16:04 think so I think but I think Financial Financial transparency is good and and you know the issue is whether somebody is abusing credit cards and so that's there needs to be maybe you know some sort of um uh conference um about you know what what the credit cards bills were in the last but not the specifics usually you know most people are pretty good with money but sometimes people do um usually people when people abuse credit cards is because they're not earning enough money and you know what the taxes are very high people it's really hard for people to make a living
16:40 with sixty thousand dollars a year in today yeah you know and even and you know if two people are earning each year earning 60 then you know that's comfortable but if one person is earning 60 or 20 or earning 80 and you have cars and houses you know it's really really hard and that's why people go into the credit card debt so there needs to be Financial a level of financial transparency and financial Fidelity which means being honest about what's happening um should should a couple um choose kind of one of them who's
17:15 going to take the lead in terms of handling finances when I say handling them I mean things like you know making sure bills are paid and that kind of stuff or or should that all should that be done jointly how should people handle the the sort of legitimacy of their fight I don't think having it done jointly is that it's again it's Overkill of togetherness and something that's really administrative maybe if some person one one of them handles some of the bills and some of them so the others the other bills but it's good for both of them to be involved because in many in many um in many cases that I've seen
17:51 both in divorce and in prenups there's usually one party and it's usually the woman that has no idea what's happening and that that also happens in marriage and so when somebody their their husband dies and they're left with them they've had nothing to do with any of the finances and I don't think that's good I think that people need to learn about their finances both parties but I don't think necessarily they should be at the table writing these checks together they can have different domains and write them from the same account too and and um so kind of a and this this is something that uh
18:28 I guess for me it comes from having been in a a fiduciary type of a profession for most of my professional career I.E when I was in real estate I managed property or or I represented people so I'm in a fiduciary capacity where I have to put you know their best interests above my own and that meant making sure they were kept up to date on what was going on with their properties right so in a marriage where for for whatever reason um one spouse it tends to be the one
19:05 who's handling all these things what how how should that person handle things if their spouse really doesn't want to be involved with um dealing with finances yeah well it's kind of like you know like when people play golf and and the husband tries to teach the wife how to play golf it can be that can be a really bad Dynamic and so you know that it's kind of sounding like that but it there there should be a way where where
19:41 um somebody can't opt out of that the one of the spouses and I'm not sure how one would do it um but there might be a soft way um you know to to engage the other person to have participation in doing the the accounting part of the the relationship that practical part um okay so so next question and and I'm by the way um some of these questions are coming based on experiences that I've had dealing with people either as a Chaplain you know the the kind of you
20:17 know problems they brought to the table or or you know other friends have said got you know here's what's going on what are you what do you suggest so um what do you feel is or what do you think is um um the situation where um one of the spouses um has a kind of an outside source of finances for example a parent who you know maybe gives that that that spouse a credit card maybe maybe you know that
20:53 person's spouse doesn't even know the credit card exists it's sort of like a I don't know almost like hidden yeah that's that there's outside many coming from a parent I think it should be shared I think it should be acknowledged and put into a joint account because they're married and you know if you're married you're expecting to be married the rest of your life not everybody is like maybe 60 60 are 55 are married but you know if if you're not going to share if you're not going to be totally truthful about everything um and share your money then that's that's not going to be good for your
21:28 relationship so I think that if people are getting gifts from their parents they should say my parents gave the gift let's put this in the joint account um and this you know there's also many people that that people get from trust we can talk about that a little later but then in terms of credit card if they're using an appearance credit card I think they should show their spouse what they're using it for that this is great because their parent is basically giving them money and can I buy anything can I do anything for you on this credit card the more sharing and the more financial
22:03 um disclosure and um and you know the information that that they can share the better in how how should a um how should the spouse um whose parent isn't the one um you know offering the support how should they respond to that is it is it legitimate for them to um expect you know to be included is it legitimate for them to perhaps say you
22:39 know this is our marriage not ours in your parents marriage and so for them to be supporting us isn't appropriate how would you recommend you know if if the support is ancillary support um I know parents really care about their children and parents give money to their children if they have it because they love them and they want to make things helpful for them so it's not a bad thing and you know I think that you know there's a little bit of awkwardness because the parents are giving it to the their child and maybe doesn't know that the other child knows about it
23:16 um but maybe maybe that should be a little more open and the child that whose parents you know thank you for this this is really helping us a lot it's it's all done in a good way it's not going to be it's not going to what you're describing is not going to prevent the two married people from working their asses off to you know try to make a living because it's very hard to make a living and support a family you know and and health health from parents is very nice it's very generous it's really nice appearance when they do that so so that's a great segue into my next question which is
23:51 um within a marriage oftentimes you know there are children right and and children are both are impacted by the financial um well-being of of the marriage but also children are affected by how finances are are hap happen in the marriage because they sort of carry those on as they get older and and get married and all of that so how how should spouses deal with finances vis-a-vis their children right and so that that I mean I I
24:28 obviously when the children are very young it's it's probably not that much of an issue but as they as they start to grow up right that becomes a more important yeah yeah oh it is and I I think that it's really important to help the children be responsible and not spoil them by giving them too much money and too little responsibility because that that can happen a lot with with children it's really important to to make sure that the child has motivation to do the best they can in terms of educating themselves and jobs and launching themselves into life
25:04 without being dependent on the parents um you know if possible that's part of the job of parent to do that right should um should a child be given an allowance or or is I I'm I I'm thinking back to when I was a kid I I got an allowance until from the time I was I think six years old till I was about eight years old but frankly Finance has got very tight from my parents my father was laid off from work and and and you know it was a an amount of time before you know
25:39 he got another job and so there was the day he came and he and and he said uh he said you haven't mowed the lawn I said well Dad I haven't got my allowance for last week's mowing the lawn he said he says you know what I I house feed and clothe you know that was the last time I got an allowance yeah and you know in thinking about I don't know you know my attitude was well yeah he does do those things okay I guess I should contribute right but I sure would have liked to have had the allowance so how do we as as parents um how do we deal with that as children what expectations maybe the allowance
26:16 should be totally separate from the home duties that you know you have home duty of cutting the loan or taking out the garbage or loading the machine and that has nothing to do the larynx is just a love thing so that you can you know when you're 10 or 12 or 14 you don't have to think about bagging in the supermarket because you know if you can if you can not think about it if you if you have if your family has enough money so you don't have to go to work when you're 14 or 15 or 16. you know many kids do have to do that but if you don't have to do that and the kids can concentrate on you know doing the jobs around the house and that they're assigned and doing their
26:51 schoolwork and pursuing the special interests I you know I think kids under 18 or under 17 should have that break and be be allowed to be children and and be allowed to develop themselves as much as they can um and what what do you think about the idea of paying children to do chores or paying children maybe not for routine ones but for special chores I I don't like that I don't like that idea I think that you know parents do special chores too if you're talking about a special chore it's probably going to be one shared
27:26 with the parent and you know I think the kid needs to be old enough for it and you and the parent needs to do some things for the kids like you know if they want to do Sports if they want to do music you know the parents are going to help them with that but I don't think it should be a money relationship between parents and kids I think that the allowance should be just you know free free free love allowance kind of to take care of what the kid needs um and I you know I don't know I don't know about it the kidneys the kids need something special whether they should work for it or not I I tend to think the
28:03 parents if it's if it's special and they if the kid really needs it and wants it and it's good for the kid and the parents can do it I I think I don't I don't take a really but you know I I haven't been a parent of a teenager or young kid for a long time so I don't know but it's just you know I think people kids under 17 can you know be kids yeah yeah I mean for what it's worth I I agree children should be allowed to be children and and and you know kind of across the board and let them have that time of of relative innocence and and then they get their
28:39 whole lives to be adults yeah they'll buckle down yeah yeah exactly exactly so you you mentioned um uh trusts um I know my daughter's uh grandmother um inherited some money and and you know frankly she and her husband they had what they needed and so she ended up setting up a a small trust for my daughter um how how do you look at at trusts for children what what what what are some of the considerations that parents and or grandparents yeah consider right when
29:16 when when doing something like that yeah well you really often a trust for the children is just to provide their college education but you know but let's say that there's the the family let's say the grandparents had had a lot of wealth and um let's say the parents of them let's look at let's go back to the married couple if that's okay yeah absolutely um so the married couple one of them who comes from a family with great wealth like you know a lot of wealth and you know they need to start passing the wealth on to their kids that's what that's what parents want to do I mean we're talking about you know little little gifts but these parents have a
29:52 lot of gifts so they have to figure out what to do with it and and that that can raise a lot of issues in the marriage and that's where often there there needs to be required to be a prenup in a first marriage because one party is the beneficiary of a lot of trust um money and the other party isn't then what do you do about that when they get married that that raises a lot of issues and they're complex issues um but you know the the problem is is that the person that doesn't come from the wealthy family does need to build up
30:28 Financial Security during the marriage there needs to be marital money that's out of the trust that either money that they earned together that they saved or some of the money may be from the trust that they've saved there needs to be that money for the person that's not from the rich Pit family otherwise it it becomes it it can become very corrosive because it's dangerous for that person um because a large proportion of marriages do not last forever that doesn't mean marriage is bad or that their marriage was bad a marriage can go on for 20 years or 15 years or even
31:04 longer and be a good marriage and then it no longer is viable for whatever reason you know there's a percentage of marriages like that um but if a person shouldn't be punished so that a person that doesn't have the family wealth there needs to be a build up of marital property which you call community property right in California right yeah because in California as I understand it and I'm not a lawyer I'm not giving any legal advice but as I understand how it works in a state like California money coming from a trust would remain
31:40 the separate property of of the beneficiary um yeah unless the beneficiary uses it and it for the for the household and that's the issue you know that it needs to be you know a certain amount of it needs to be used so that they both have a standard of living not just none of them right right that's equal right and so what do you see happening when one spouse feels there's an inequity um in in you know sort of their at least
32:16 financial status right right yeah and if people can feel bad about that but you know it's like the here the parable of the hedge fund operator and the school teacher you know people get married and the woman is a hedge fund operator and makes you know zillions whatever and the guy is a public school teacher they're making equal contributions so there's that issue of somebody making more money and somebody making this and then there's the issue of family money and there's there's there's a tendency for people to say I don't want your money I don't want your money I don't want your family's money and um and that's you know that's
32:52 kind of not not that helpful because the money is there and it needs to be dealt with um and and and May and maybe it's not a matter of don't want or should want but it needs to be integrated into the relationship somehow that I I hope you don't mind my saying that that's an incredibly wise statement that may be one of the most uh important things that's been said on my show the idea that it's the the money is there and needs to be integrated into the relationship
33:28 that just I really it honestly does I I I I don't talk in hyperbole but that is incredibly wise I mean I wish I had been able to to verbalize that to people that I've dealt with over the years you know just recognize the money is is there right I think we we get hung up on money yeah whether we have it or we don't and there's there can be kind of a reverse snobbishness by the person who doesn't have the money well I didn't have the money so I'm clean you know I'm clean I
34:04 don't have it whatever and and they get kind of their back up against the wall and it would be much better if they just you know put the money and if it's the guy that doesn't have the money there's this big tendency to think I'm you know I'm strong I don't need that money it's your money I don't want it but you know there's cases where where you know there's there's a case in Massachusetts where the these this couple got a divorce in their 70s and it you know they just really didn't get along I think for the whole time or a lot of the time and she had a trust and he spent all that and he was the worker in the family and he spent all this money on the household and when they got
34:39 divorced he had nothing you know and like that's that's not fair right Equitable and it's not workable and something like that can ruin a marriage you know money issues can ruin marriages and prenups can ruin marriages that's why I really enjoy mediating prenups because I can we can talk these things out there's not a time limit you know we can just when I see these issues coming up we can actually talk through them and people you know it's it's kind of like pre-marital money counseling or something like that yeah so let's let's
35:16 talk about that um when do you think or what are the the situations where a prenupt may be a good idea what are some of the what are some of those uh issues I guess um the the main ones are um first marriage but one of the partners comes from a very wealthy family and there's trust involved I think that if not a prenup it does need to be spoken about but and sometimes the family requires a prenup it has a lawyer that has a prenup ready you know right there ready the template
35:52 is ready you want to get married fine yeah and I've I've talked to people that sign there that without you know I've talked to a a guy who 23 years old he assigned it and he didn't want to you know and then and then 30 years later realizing how bad it was for him you know and realizing when the marriage was breaking up you know just that that anyway so that's that's one example another example is is there's a very big disparity of premarital property even though the people are fairly young because people are getting married later and let's say they're in their late 30s
36:27 and they're getting married you might want to pray enough just to have what you're doing is you're creating a financial plan not that all that money would be always separate because some of it could vest in the marriage as it gets older as the marriage gets longer but just to have an understanding of what happens even though that in Most states premato property is separate you're going to want to have talk it out and maybe have a plan about that and then another big one is if somebody's in a business either their own business or family business because that gets really messy if there's a divorce and um and that it's a good thing to plan around that and then the other major one is
37:03 older people getting married for a second time either because of death or divorce especially people with children and people with enough need to want to leave some to their children because sometimes older people also need to just support each other and don't have extra money but if they have extra money that they want to leave their children then planning that out is really important so those are the major major ones that I see so for someone who's who's let's say you know someone comes to you and and you advise based on the circumstances that person
37:38 um you know describes to you you say Well it may be a good idea to at least consider a prenuptial agreement how how would you recommend that person then speak to you know his or her um fiance I guess it would be at that point right I could I could because I could imagine I could imagine you know wait I thought we were in love and now you're talking free enough it could be very off-putting yeah it is very off-putting and it really really offends um some future stuff is greatly when when that moment happens
38:14 so um you know it's really difficult because the moment the moment should happen earlier rather than later and there needs to be I don't know I don't know I I you know I I haven't been through that myself but that is a really difficult situation and sometimes when I'm mediating um uh the the once one spouse usually the usually it's the guy with more money and the one spouse um the other spouse you know just is really offended and doesn't want one but when you start talking about it because prenups can actually give you more than
38:51 what you get in the law and then many times they should it's not only the certainty of what's going to happen so if you take it in neutral terms a financial plan and then the the other the person understands that the law would give them less than this that they would have no rights you know the the law on on inheritance if you don't have a will it's not you don't get all your your spouse's money you get like maybe a third of it you know and so so very often prenups are you can view them as as plans that will be practical and more generous
39:28 um than what the law would provide and the other really good thing about prenups although not fishing is that I have a alternate dispute resolution for vision a very robust one that can keep people out of court that has mediation and collaborative law then binding arbitration and non-binary arbitration you know so it really really keeps people out of law out of court and a lot of times with second marriages these people have been through terrible divorces long horrible fights fights about children but it's about money just horrible horrible divorces and so they
40:03 don't want that to happen again and it shouldn't happen again so I I just want to digress for a moment because a question occurs to me and and you know kind of out of the blue can a prenuptial agreement also deal with issues of children child custody and those sort of things are they purely Financial they're they're well they're purely Financial they probably could deal with paying educational costs but they can't deal with custody okay um of a child in visitation they can't do that okay yeah so so but they can do one of the things
40:38 they should deal with is estate planning making an estate planning commitment to the other person like at least X percent of my estate will go to my surviving spouse you know because it used to be when I started doing prenups nobody had estate planning requirements in there and that's really bad because a person can change their will legally a day before they die and that's not fair right right yeah so that that's an important feature okay and it's different every prenup is different every factual situation is different differently for each couple
41:15 so so going back to the question of sort of you know broaching the subject with one's fiance um would it be reasonable to suggest that um say you know look you know darling you know I love you um and and I think you know we have you know somewhat um you know unequal Financial situations I'd like for us to get some pre-marital Financial counseling um so that we can understand how these issues might affect our marriage
41:52 um we might end up having some kind of agreement come out of that we might not but yeah I mean do you see that as being a yeah I think that's right and I think you're talking about going to a a lawyer mediator like me right exactly I would say like you know I happen to know this lawyer by the name of Lori she specializes in this and I think it would be very valuable for us to understand this yeah it still might be offensive to the person with that money yeah and it might cool the relationship a little bit it's it's a really difficult thing see money really drives people away money is you know sometimes bad
42:29 it's just unfortunate um I mean I I this I I as you said every situation is different of course um is it a red flag for someone if they find that their fiance is um doesn't want to talk about finances or or I I think I think I think it is I think people need to talk it's it's the elephant in the room and people do need to talk about it they they absolutely do and I think they need to be educated and educating means to to find out what the law provides
43:06 um and of course to do that you probably should either go into the internet or see a lawyer but you can find a lot from the internet but understanding it really takes somebody to talk to you about it so right um yeah it might be a good thing to go to a lawyer mediator if that's possible but you know I hate I just hate it when that happens it's so sad because money should be good you know and helpful and yet yet it's not you know if somebody has like has to is they're in their late 30s or getting married for the first time and somebody has like you know eight
43:41 hundred thousand dollars which is possible and the other person has you know 50 000 or maybe nothing you know it it's reasonable for the person with the 800 000 to want to have some sort of protection so that um or to know what would happen if there was a divorce early on before there's marital property before there's more money to share right right and also to have a plan of what to do if their marriage is long is that money going to be always separate or no
44:18 ideas for a premarital property is really helpful but nothing is fixed unless you actually have a prenup unless you actually sign one right because you can make promises but you know they're not going to be enforceable right right and and promises made when the marriage is good are oftentimes worth nothing when the marriage is right so people change changes so calling it a financial plan rather than a freedom is good mm-hmm so um and as you look at the broader
44:53 subject of marriage and money um we've we've talked about a number of of issues um what are perhaps the top I don't know three um Financial or money issues that a couple getting married should should make sure they talk about um you know prior to walking down to aisle so yeah yeah well one of the things is is debt and I get a lot of people saying I have to have a prenup to prevent me from being responsible for my partner's death that and the problem
45:30 with that is that the first the partner is going to be paying off their debt with marital money with money they earn so to me it's really helpful in inappropriate enough to have an ideal that the debt of the person that's coming in with it is going to be paid off during the marriage Maybe not immediately especially you know if the debt of student loan debt and that person is use the student loan debt to create a career that that becomes totally logical that it becomes marital that but lots of lawyers and people say oh no the debt has to be separate the premarital debt has to be separate so I think that you know looking at debt each
46:07 other's debt I think is figuring out a plan of how that's going to be paid is really important uh figuring out what's going to happen if they're gonna if they want to buy a house because people like you know like to have a house and like to live in a stable place you know and really make it their home how that's going to happen um I guess you know being being transparent about the credit ratings is a good idea um um you know I think that you can tell tell from each other you know whether somebody is racking up a lot of credit
46:43 card bills this is a good thing to know because that means it either means they're spending too much or they're they're not earning enough and you know when you get people get married if somebody who's not earning them enough marries somebody who's earning a lot that's good that's a good thing they don't have to worry about that anymore that credit card debt can be paid off that's a loving thing to do yeah absolutely you know if somebody it's it's what somebody needs and when when you're marrying you're trying to to help people you're trying to help your partner and and do caring things for them
47:18 so let's say and and that's a good segue once again to my next question let's say you know you a couple has been married now for many years five ten years maybe even more and and let's say one of the couples uh one I'm not one of the couples one of the spouses um they want to change what they're doing or or maybe you know the woman took time off from her career um in order to you know have have children and raise them when they were young but but now you know the children are in school and you know she doesn't
47:55 want to sit home I'll do much she wants to get back into the professional world but maybe she doesn't want to do what she was doing before she wants to do something else and that might require going back to school or or it might require you know I don't know starting a business how how should a married couple um navigate you know that that situation yeah and it comes up a lot when you know when when things are the economy is bad and the guy who loses his job for several years and and then gets another one that that pays a third of what his
48:31 other job did that happens a lot and at the same time the the wife is getting close to an inheritance and then that creates an imbalance and some anxiety and on both sides or somebody wants to start a business and take marital money and start a business which could fail you know those are all things that people navigate to get gave navigate as their marriage gets older and sometimes people um go to somebody like me and try to have a post-nuptial agreement about that and post-nuptial Agreements are like prenuptial agreements after the marriage and they'll deal with these things and
49:06 they're very you know that's very treacherous because what do you do if somebody needs to take marital property or feels that they need to start a business because they can no longer get a job then what happens when that inheritance comes in is that going to be just for the other spouse or that would be everybody so it it raises a lot of really for any issues those types of things that happen during a marriage um but you know when you're married you're a team you want the best if you're the other person you want the other person to thrive so if somebody
49:41 wants to get educated and you know take a student loan to get educated in different areas start something although this might be a you know a seven to ten year project at age 40 or at age you know something like that and they have enough money to do that enough security that they think they can do that and that it's good for people to be able to follow their dreams in their marriage even though they're married foreign it occurs to me and and you're you strike me as a very humble person so this may be a difficult question for you
50:16 to answer um you know some of the problems that come up in a marriage um you know the spouses might say when we need to get some counseling and so they'll go to you know a marriage counselor but some of these questions I would think you or or someone you know your skill set would be a much better person to be you know counseled by right yeah you're dealing with these issues what do you think about that lawyers are money doctors and and these are many issues and lawyers just know more about
50:51 them and you know it to see one lawyer means that that lawyer has to basically be it can't represent either of you so there's kind of like a lot of touchy issues having to do with one lawyer representing two people or working with two people so you call yourself a mediator and you can do it um and and lawyers are just better at this better at these nitty-gritty issues with money than psychologists in general um um so it is a good thing to see a lawyer about the issues like this and seeing
51:26 one together is the best thing to do it together and talk through these problems it's like talking through a prenup right right I I would imagine the same is true of of doing an estate plan um you know for a married couple right if they're going to do a living trust or something like that yeah yeah and usually they do them together and if there's a conflict that arises then the lawyer has to stop working for both of them but usually a conflict usually a conflict doesn't arise especially if there's um if the children of that marriage are both of theirs you know
52:01 they're there's together but conflicts can arise so that's you know and but a mediator works with people that have conflict you know but immediate mediator can't represent either of the people it can give people information it can help people talk it could give people ideas help vet their ideas should should a couple who's contemplating one of these issues should they go to a mediator first and then if necessary you know kind of get the lawyers to to to do I think they should
52:36 go to a lawyer mediator first a lawyer mediator is good at this issue these issues which would probably be a divorce mediator a collaborative lawyer because collaborative lawyers are trained to try to make things Fair um and um and know a lot about the issues that come up in marriages because they work with divorces mostly um so they're very sensitive um so I think seeing a collaborative lawyer as a mediator or as a lawyer if they're willing to see both people might be a good idea where does someone find
53:11 you know a lawyer like you I mean our meeting was kind of happenstance right we met yeah we had a someone we mutually that's right yeah yeah otherwise the search collaborative law and your city or your county and practically every state has collaborative lawyers and then take a look at all of them read their bios on on the the nice things about lawyers is that lawyers have websites doctors don't it's like they're they're ciphers but lawyers you know the lawyers do a lot of marketing with their websites so um just look up collaborative law look
53:48 up collaborative law mediation maybe marital mediation your county or your state and see what comes up so that would be the Google search and then you'll find that you should be able to find a lawyer you can talk to about these issues you mentioned uh and and I don't know if this was a little bit tongue-in-cheek but that it takes about 10 years for a lawyer to really understand what you know what she's doing or what he's doing when it comes to choosing a collaborative lawyer I mean should that be kind of a minimum I I I I I I I think
54:25 you should choose somebody who's not under 50 years old and because I think you need to choose somebody who may have been in a long marriage even if that marriage broke up because you need to you know people that have been long in Long marriages understand marriages understand long marriages and young people there's no way they can understand them so I think it should be somebody over 50 preferably over 55. okay very that's no maximum age maximum age don't trust anybody under 60. in this
55:01 case don't trust anybody under right right yeah no I mean yeah and that's what I look at I'm actually writing an article about how you because I choose attorneys for people when I'm mediating I give them a list of eight attorneys and we go through them on on on a share screen to look at them so that they can choose who they want to approach to represent them because if I'm the mediator and it's not Massachusetts I can't write it up I can't represent them anyway and so what I do is I I I'm writing an article about how you can read people through their faces I've done all the research now I
55:37 just have to write the article because part of what I do is I look at people's faces and see whether they look like they're kind people um compassionate caring smart um sensitive I don't know can you do you think you can tell people by their faces um I think some people you know I think some yeah I think it depends how um guarded they are some people are are unguarded and so I think you can read a lot about them in in their faces and and their how they speak their mannerisms
56:12 that sort of thing others I think are very guarded and and are you know almost inscrutable so would you want to choose a guarded and screwable person to to do this job if you were a couple that wanted to go see somebody to talk about their financial yeah so I I think I think no I wouldn't I I want to have confidence that the person the people that I'm dealing with are open enough that I have a sense that what they're saying to me is genuinely you know what they what they think right and they're also hearing you really being able to grasp how you're feeling you and your
56:47 spouse yeah yeah I mean can I quote you in my article absolutely you know you know it's an interesting question because um you know as I think about just other business matters um you know in negotiations and that kind of thing um you know I've I've dealt with people who are very guarded in the negotiations and and I find that very difficult because I really don't have a sense of yeah I stand and yes you know do I really want to especially if it's a
57:22 negotiation that's going to lead to some kind of you know longer or longish term situation do I really want to be involved with somebody that I'm not sure I can really yeah understand and or trust yeah right right yeah yeah I mean I'm a big believer that the basis of everything in human endeavor is relationships and and relationships come with with are based on trust and and Trust oftentimes
57:58 you know it's got to be built but but it's on a certain degree of Candor and opens right and a willingness to be somewhat vulnerable depending on the circumstances yes um I think all of those you know need to be taken into account yeah I agree I you know since we're going down this route this this Rabbit Hole a little bit I mean I'm very long you know standing friend all the way from college um who uh retired from Academia a few years ago and he's looking at pursuing
58:34 some business business matters and you know and we've talked about this for years doing something together um and and one of the reasons why I I think it would be so nice is because we have such a long history of of our relationship that I think inevitably you know problems are going to come up but because we have this whole history I think we're more likely to be able to solve them than not right sounds like a long-term marriage yeah you know I mean trust yes he has outlived both my
59:11 marriages I've cried on his shoulder twice at least I'm gonna say don't do it I don't do it Partnerships are like you know Partnerships with aside from Marriage um they can be for it and you have to figure out what's more important your friendship or this business you know right right because it can really really affect your friendship you can't you know it's so it's so interesting how things dovetail I was in a meeting this morning um and and the person was talking about you know how you deal with uh
59:49 um you know oh he's talking about um selling insurance and and so the question came up is what you know would you like to would you like me to quote you on insurance and and my response was well I haven't insurance broker and we've been friends for you know 40 years and he says but I could probably save you five six hundred dollars a year and I said you know what the relationship isn't worth yeah you're risking for five six hundred for five six hundred dollars a year uh the relationship is more important to me and it's so incredulous and I have to tell you it's a little bit
60:24 put off that yeah but I mean yeah to me that doesn't seem he's probably young how old was this well he was you're right he was he was young I'm guessing he was under 30. yeah and it you know he doesn't know yet and he's struggling she's trying to make a you know he's starting a startup and it's so hard when you when you start something and it you know you're not getting results for a long time and you know yeah I feel for him although I can understand why you'd want to stay with your yeah you have a relationship with right that's probably worth the the four or five hundred
60:59 dollars the kind of advice you get from him and that kind of good you know it's like absolutely and his experience he's gone through that 10 years of experience of 20 years by the way lawyers take more than 10 years and that's why they call it practicing law because we're always learning right you know and most people that have jobs that are complex are always learning you're always becoming better at it um the more you know we have these incredible computers in our heads we have the computer that's attached to our heart all right all right oh gosh we've we've gone over time I'm
61:35 just I'm looking up at my my clock here on the community thank those of you who are watching thank you for hanging in we could we could continue this I think easily for another hour yeah we'll do it sometime I would yeah I'd love to have you come on again and I I think there's there's a lot more to unpack here yeah but but we do want to be respectful of people's time so so Lori thank you so so much thank you really great talking with you yeah yeah I I just really wonderful and and just such such solid advice and and
62:10 I I I have to say and I don't want to embarrass you I I can see why you're such a good mediator to talk to you is to feel a sort of calmness inside um and and and I think that that's an amazing quality for for a professional to have especially someone who's doing the kind of work that you're doing because it can be very upsetting and so to be able to engage with you and and and feel a sort of centeredness coming out of you you know in into me very very very thank you I'm glad so great talking
62:47 with you it's really wonderful talk and wonderful questions and we have to do it soon good good okay take care okay so I'm gonna have you hang hang tight here for just a couple more minutes while I will I sign off um I just want to thank you all for for joining us today um our this my guest has been Lori Israel and you should put the book in the chat or something or well so when the after we uh log off um the show is gonna post my YouTube channel and in the show notes I'll put where people can connect with you and
63:22 also I'll put a link to your book so they can get them um and and if you have any questions for Lori um feel free to post them in in the in the chat on the various social media I'll make sure that um the questions get forwarded to Lori um and and I I imagine she'll be happy to respond to them if she can you know I mean obviously if you're asking for very specific advice that's that's her professional capacity so then you'll have to talk about engaging but um but but please do do feel um do feel
63:59 free to to you know comment and ask questions and all of that um because this is we're really doing this for you to help you you know better your your life and the shows that I find most pleasing are the ones that that really give us an opportunity to deal with all of the aspects of the three pillars of attainment um and and you see them fused in the work that Lori is doing I think that's that's so important that holistic approach to life so just do want to mention next week next Monday 10 a.m is trust Estates weekly Tuesday and I should say 10 a.m Pacific
64:36 time is that show Tuesday at 11 A.M Pacific time is business lessons from the military and then uh on Wednesday a week from today at 12 30 p.m Pacific time is the next edition of people making money so I hope you will tune in for those and join us next week um I'll wish you a a very uh happy and meaningful Independence Day in advance since that'll be Independence Day week Lori just one more time I want to thank you so much for coming on the show look forward to speaking with you again thank
65:13 you me too my sign off as always Marie darling you are my bell so thank you all for watching and we will see you again soon