0:04 [snorts] To an outsider, the military salute can look like an exercise in hierarchy. A junior person recognizes a senior person, reinforcing who outranks whom. That interpretation misses much of the point. At its best, the salute is not about making senior officers feel important. It's a standardized ritual of
0:41 mutual recognition. The junior person initiates, but the senior person is expecting to return it. Both participants have obligations and what is being recognized is not simply the individual but the rank, authority, responsibility and institution that individuals temporarily represent. That distinction offers a useful lesson for business. Healthy organizations need hierarchy, authority, and symbols of respect. But those mechanisms work best when they reinforce roles and
1:16 responsibilities rather than personalities and egos. Today on Business Lessons from the Military, who [music] are you and where are you going? [music] What do you want? Hello and welcome to Business Lessons from the Military. I'm your host, Kevin Beml, and I'm here every Tuesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about
1:51 military history, doctrine, and leadership practices and then distill from those lessons we can apply to our businesses and professional practices. So, today I'm going to be talking about the military salute. Everybody's seen it, right? [laughter] There you go. I'm not the greatest saluter in the world anymore, especially because I've been out of the military for a while. But it's it's it's an iconic gesture that is, you know, related to every military pretty much that's ever existed. There
2:28 are different ways the salute has been done. There's the palm forward salute that you see in the British military. There's there was the salute that the Nazis used which is so repugnant although they were they did not originate it that was the salute used by the Roman legions uh you know centuries ago. Uh and and I think that um you know as I said in in in the teaser people have a I I think a a misconception about what the salute is all about. And and so I want to talk
3:05 about that today because I think it also there's a larger misconception about hierarchies and authority in American society today. So the the first misconception is that the salute uh I exists because junior people have to demonstrate submission to senior officers. So historically um there was an aspect of that involved but today and and really you know in in
3:42 the US military pretty much from its history the salute is better understood as a formal recognition of military authority and institutional roles. So it's not that the salute is given, it's that the salute is given and returned. Right? And uh you I can tell you from my own career uh you know when a when a junior saluted me, I was absolutely
4:19 obligated to return that salute. I was I personally was very diligent about that. There were times when I saluted seniors who did not return that salute and I did not think very well of of those officers and oftentimes it turns out that they were not good officers. It's it's a really interesting way of finding out who is a leader and who is not. I will say the one of the smartest salutes I ever received was when I was leaving the post office while stationed on Okinawa and I walked out and in front of me was
4:54 a three-star general. I had never met him before and I I you know gave him as smart as a salute as I possibly could and he returned that salute so you know so beautifully. uh you know and and I he had never met me of course either uh but but you know credit to him that uh you know at that point he'd probably been been in the Marine Corps I would guess for over 20 years 25 years something like that maybe more and he still made it a point to uh to you know return a smart salute to someone who was junior to him. I have no
5:31 doubt he would have return he would have returned the same quality of salute to a Marine Corps recruit that he returned to me at the time I was a lieutenant junior grade in O2. Okay, number two. Second misconception. This the salute comes directly from medieval knights and they're raising their visors, right? So you can see their face. I mean this is this is a popular origin story but but the historical connection is difficult at best to establish. So the development
6:06 of the modern salute really is more convincingly connected to European customs involving gestures of respect and military headgear. I'll talk a little bit more about that in a few minutes. Uh the next misconception is that soldiers salute individual officers. Now they are not literally saluting the individual. They are they are acknowledging his rank, his commission and his
6:44 authority that that that is represented within that individual. Okay? So when I would receive a salute from somebody, they weren't saluting Kevin Bemel. They were saluting variously a lieutenant or a lieutenant commander and a chaplain because they could see my chaplain insignia actually but yeah it was over here think about that for a minute right but it it the salute was wasn't to me most of the time now on
7:19 certain occasions there I did receive salutes where the the service member wanted to um show respect for me, Kevin Bemel, right? And and typically it was a situation where I I I had a relationship with that person. I had helped them out. Maybe it was a particularly difficult situation and they wanted to convey not so much respect, although that was part
7:55 of it. They wanted to convey appreciation for the fact that I used my role and my authority to help them out, which is why I had it in the first place. Okay. So it's it's not that it's never the individual officer saluted, but typically when the individual officer when the individual who is the representative of that office is saluted, it it it it's you can tell it's a different way that the the the junior salutes you. Okay. And then finally,
8:33 saluting. The the the final misconception is that saluting is a it's just an archaic uh tradition of militaries that hasn't been eliminated yet. And I I I think the the value of the salute lies in its long tradition. So especially through the tradition of saluting and and having the salute returned, it's it's a it's an inner um an interchange of respect. So the when the se senior
9:12 salutes back, that is a gesture of respect to the junior just like the junior's initial salute to the senior, right? And so the ritual of saluting it reinforces the tradition, the history, the reciprocity and discipline that being a member of this institution accords. Okay. So it's it's not something outdated. It's something that's very much alive and important. Okay. So the question one of the primary
9:49 questions I think people have about saluting is where did it from where did it come right and it's it's origin is much more complicated than the sort of you know familiar knight and visor story. So European customs included removing or touching one's headgear as a sign of respect. And so military organizations gradually standardize such a gesture. Right? So, um,
10:24 if you've ever seen movies of, um, especially the British Navy, um, in the 19th century, you'll oftentimes see sailors do this sort of knuckles to the head thing. They're not saying like, oh, kind of thing. That was the way that they saluted. That that was that was just the custom aboard uh, Navy ships. Um, so the the reality is as as military headgear became increasingly cumbersome and elaborate. Okay. Uh uh completely
10:59 removing it became impractical. If you saw I um last week's episode, I talked about uniforms and and how up until really kind of the latter half of the 19th century, uniforms um pro were were much more ceremonial than they are today. So to remove these large headgear was was very cumbersome. And so instead of removing the headgear uh a a gesture became the formalized military courtesy.
11:36 So instead of removing one's h you know one's cover one you know gestured eventually like I said the British like this the Americans like this etc. Right? So it was really kind of an evolutionary um development. So why does the junior person salute first then right? Why shouldn't the senior person salute the junior person? Well, so the gesture of of the junior initiating it really recognizes the authority associated with
12:12 senior rank. Okay. And the fact of the matter is the military has to have a chain of command to operate. We can't have the sort of adivistic um behavior in the military that we have in civilian life. And so there has to there needs to be physical ways of recognizing this this chain of command. And so the salute is one of the ways in which that is done beyond things like insignia on uniforms and such. So why then if if
12:48 this is just simply a recognition of authority, why then doesn't the why does the officer return the salute? And this is really an important part of the story because the the return of the salute recognizes the reciprocal obligation, right? We tend to think of officers as as exercising command and leadership and and you know jump when I say jump kind of thing. Well, I mean, yes, part of
13:24 being an officer is command, but if you talk to almost all officers in the military, they will tell you that one of their most important responsibilities is the care of their men, their soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen, etc. Right? And and this is something that is embedded in officers from when they are most junior. So, lieutenants and and captains in um all the in the um Army,
14:02 Marine Corps, and Air Force and and and lieutenants and and to a lesser extent lieutenant commanders in the Navy that at that low level of commissioned officer, you typically have primary responsibility over the well-being of a small group of, you know, again, service members, sailor soldiers. etc. And their well-being is the basis for much of how well you get um um evaluated
14:39 um each each year that you're in the military. And and so so for example, um in the Marine Corps, there's an ethos that the officer doesn't bed down until he's made sure that his his men are taken care of. That is a real thing. That's not something that was made up for the movies or something like that. And so this reciprocal obligation to salute embedded in that is a recognition of the officer's obligation
15:14 to be taking care of the people who are responsible for initiating a salute. Finally, what exa um what exactly is being saluted? Right? So, it's not the personality of the person receiving the salute. I can guarantee you in my career, I saluted a quite a number of officers for whom, frankly, I had little if any respect. Their their behavior was, shall we say, less than senior
15:52 officerike. Um and um they were just in in some cases just not good people. Uh but I wasn't saluting the personality or the behavior of the person. What I was saluting was the rank and authority that that person carried. And the reality of the of of certainly the American military is there are people who are promoted who probably shouldn't be but through you know their politicking etc
16:27 they're able to get promoted. I I have a couple in mind right now. Uh but you know that is the imperfection of any organization and it was not for me to decide you know which people of which rank were worthy of my acknowledgement of respect. My obligation is to acknowledge there is a chain of command and so if someone outranked me I had to I had to initiate a salute to that person. Right? And so this is why um saluting fits within a
17:07 broader military culture of things like flag ceremonies and um uh um um you know the the rendering of honors um you know uh and and and and other institutional symbols. The salute is just one part uniforms. The salute is just one part of imbuing the military with a sense of culture. So um how did a a you know gesture of difference become then an institutional
17:44 ritual? Right? So [clears throat] the the the the history um of the salute, I'm just going to do kind of a brief thing here for you, but it did begin with, as I mentioned a little while ago, with the older European custom of respect. Um social hierarchy was um expressed physically. If you've ever seen um things like you know Downtown's Abbey and or not not not so much Downtown Downtown's Abby um trying to think oh Sense and Sensibility the the the wonderful uh movie uh made from
18:19 the Jane Austin book. So uh um I don't recall the name of the character but he walks into the room. Um the ladies uh typically will stand after he comes in and he bows to them as a as as a a gesture of courtesy and respect and they they you know kind of curtsy back. So this and and you know in this was not necessarily uh in in this case uh a a a gesture of
18:54 junior and senior. It was really this was the respect men paid to women in English society, right? And so these types of um physical expressions of respect were very much embodied in European culture uh for you know for centuries, right? And and another one of those was removing a hat. So when a man um met a lady um he would remove his hat. It was considered impolite to speak
19:29 with a woman when your head was covered for example. So as as um armies and militaries in general moved into um a more sort of professional standing. So they started standardizing all of these cultural um all these cultural uh aspects. So they standardized uniforms like I talked about last week. There were standardized drills. There were standardized weapons, standardized organizations. And so uh
20:05 you know the salute became the standardized gesture in lie of removing cumbersome headgear. So it was part of a broader uh movement if you will within militaries that allowed them to increase in size and still operate uh effectively and efficiently. And then you know military bureaucracies then codified the behavior. So who salutes whom when um
20:41 under what circumstances right how is the salute executed who returns it all those things became so for example uh on on a ship um unless we're up on deck we do not salute in the United States Navy we would be saluting constantly if that were the case right and in the Navy um we don't salute when we're uncovered Okay. So, and in the Navy, we do not wear our cover when we're indoors, including the inside of a ship, right?
21:17 So, um you know, in the the army, as I understand it, it works differently. You do you you do stay covered indoors and and there is saluting indoors as well as outdoors, right? So, Navy and the Marine Corps, no saluting indoors, no saluting when uncovered. not you don't stay covered indoors, right? So different and and there were practical reasons for that to wear headgear when you're below decks in a 19th century, you know, wooden sailing ship was very impractical often times, right? And so uh you know a
21:52 and also you you're at much closer quarters on a ship than you are you know an army in the field. So different uh you know different customs um uh develop differently. Um and and and by the way just just just a a real quick digression. So when the uh British sovereign was uh when a toast was given to the British sovereign um in the British army, it was done standing up to show respect for the sovereign. Right. Uh, but the I I don't remember which sovereign it was, but one of the British
22:28 sovereigns gave the Navy permission to toast him sitting down because it's cumbersome to stand up in a ship that there may be a lot of rocking or whatever, right? And so in the British Navy, the sovereign is toasted while sitting down. So again, you see different customs developed differently for different service branches. So the social this this sort of gesture um became um uh it became more than just a merely interpersonal gesture. It became part of this
23:05 institutionalized expression of culture, right? And so militaries need this in order to act um efficiently. Now, here's here's, you know, kind of a an an interesting twist on this. So, uh, when I, uh, first joined the Navy, um, I I because I was what was called a direct accession, um, I entered the Navy as a lieutenant junior grade rather than an inson. But, you know, from from my first day in the Navy, I was a commissioned
23:41 officer. And if a Marine Corps gunnery sergeant passed me outside, um, who and a gunnery a Marine Corps gunnery sergeant has probably been in the Marine Corps, you know, probably at least 12 years, maybe more, right? I'm brand new to the Navy. He's been in the military for over a decade. He still is required to salute me, a brand new, you know, lieutenant junior grade, right? And how is it that this, you know, senior non-commission officer, which is
24:17 what a gunnery sergeant is, he's a senior um NCO, right? How is it that he would be required to salute a newly commissioned officer, right? He has vastly more military experience. He understands the unit much better. He possesses far greater technical expertise and he's led people in experiences that the lieutenant has or he's led people I should say in circumstances the lieutenant has never experienced. Right? So and and yet he's required to salute. Right? So
24:54 >> [snorts]
24:54 >> um this this exposes really the the the heart of this episode and the the salute does not mean you know more than I do. It doesn't mean, you know, you are a better, you know, soldier or marine or sailor than than I am. Um, and and it certainly doesn't mean that that you're more important, you know, human being than I am. It's it's really saying that look you currently are you currently occupy a position of authority an office of authority and I am obligated to
25:31 recognize that that is what that salute means. Okay. Now, I'll go one step further and say hopefully that newly commissioned, you know, lieutenant knows enough to develop a relationship with that senior non-commissioned officer to learn from him. And indeed, in in all branches of the American military, one of the jobs of senior non-commissioned officers is to train junior commissioned officers. It's recognized that is strongest in the Navy where chief petty officers it's
26:06 understood one of their most important responsibilities is to train uh ensons and lieutenants junior grade and and and even lieutenants right and so that is but that's still part of the understanding yes you're here to train me a as a commissioned officer you're here to impart your knowledge your wisdom But there is still a recognition that I I occupy this office and so you'll salute me first and then I will return your salute and recognition of
26:42 the courtesy that has been paid to my office. Right? So rank uh establishes decision authority not human worth. Okay? And I can't emphasize that point enough. So, um, you know, this is this is particularly true, um, a a as we turn now to the business side of things because a CEO doesn't need to be the smartest person in every meeting. In fact, if the CEO is the smartest person
27:17 in every meeting, why does the CEO have all these other people? Are they just there to, you know, push pencils and paper and such? I hope not. Right? So a CEO should surround himself with people who know more than he does, who have greater experience than he does in various aspects of running the business. But the CEO still has the ultimate authority in that company and those you know the the most important decisions rest with the CEO. So the purpose of the
27:54 hierarchy in a the purpose of a hierarchy in business just like in the military is to establish responsibility and the um the obligation and and the and the right to make decisions um not to establish whose ego matters most. And you know in in one can always can almost always tell a bad CEO because there's a lot of ego involved in it. So the saluting is not about ego. It's it's about
28:30 recognizing how decisions will be made, who has the authority to make decisions and and then you know how those decisions will be executed. Let's take a quick break and we'll look at some specific lessons. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what
29:05 matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step. Magnum Properties, Inc., turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. Okay. So, um, as is always the case, I have five lessons to share with you. So, lesson number one, respect the role, not
29:42 the ego. Okay? I've I've talked about this several times. The salute recognizes authority rather than declaring that a particular individual is inherently superior to someone else. Right? So, a junior officer may receive a salute from someone who has decades more military experience. Um, that gesture recognizes the officer's position, not his, you know, value as a human being, right? And authority belongs to the position in in in this
30:19 institution called the military. So businesses function better when they make the same distinction, right? So a CEO needs to have greater decision-making authority than most employees for the for the organization to function. That does not mean that the CEO's ideas are automatically better. What it means is that CEO has the responsibility for making the decisions and then he and then he also owns the results of those decisions. A smart CEO
30:57 will of course solicit the opinions and the ideas of people who are junior to him in the hierarchy. Okay. But they take the responsibility for making the decision. And if the decision goes wrong, they do not turn around and blame the other people. They acknowledge the decision was mine and so now the responsibility is mine. Right? So leaders who confuse their personal status with their authority create unhealthy organizations. Right? People
31:35 oftentimes are are bowled over by the ego. They're demotivated from wanting to um do their best for such a person because he's always lauding it over them, right? And so they they learn to manage a boss like that rather than solve problems which can which which is very detrimental to the success of the organization. Right? And so um you know they they they learn that you know disagreement is dangerous and and um information gets filtered as
32:13 it moves up and and the leadership is is sort of divorced from reality. PE credit is not given where credit is due and the whole organization becomes dysfunctional. So businesses need to to make authority clear but they need to depersonalize it. So respect the office, respect the responsibility but don't build an organization that feeds on the egos of the people occupying senior positions. Okay. So that's number one.
32:48 Respect the role not the ego. Okay. Number two, respect should create reciprocal obligations. So a a military salute is not a one-way transaction. It's initiated and it's returned. Right? Both people have a part in this ritual. And it's because their their existence in the military, it is one of mutual need, mutual concern, if you will. So while rank has authority,
33:24 that authority obligates the officer to use it in a way that will best take care of his people among other things, right? So officers are entrusted with authority to make sure for for example, okay, I had a situation when I first got to Okinawa where a young Marine was being uh sexually harassed if not actually abused by a senior non-commissioned officer and she came to me for help.
34:00 Right? I had that officer authority so that I could go to this senior non-commissioned officer. He was in fact a a sergeant major in the Marine Corps. He was close to retirement. He'd had close to 30 years in the Marine Corps. And I I was a firstyear lieutenant junior grade chaplain, right? I still had authority that was in essence greater than his as a commissioned officer. and it was my duty to use that authority to deal with
34:35 that situation. Okay. Uh and and the the sergeant major didn't like it. Uh and you know, too bad for him, right? So, so this this is the mutuality of obligation between juniors and seniors that has to be recognized and that is made um made made evident by the salute. So, businesses often get this backwards. So, promotions become rewards for past performance rather than
35:12 assignments of greater future responsibility. And that can be very detrimental to the organization. Look, it's all good and well to to reward an employee for a job well done. But if an if an employee is going to be promoted, it should be with the understanding that this person can handle the additional responsibility. Okay? The additional authority that comes with that promotion, right? That is what in promotion boards in the military look for when they examine the
35:49 record of a service member who's eligible for promotion. Right? Now, is it a perfect system? No, for sure not. Okay? But but in general, that is what's looked for. And so um when you have a situation um where executive privileges accumulate um and and and and that becomes the you know the driving desire for someone to advance in an organization. You have an organization where where seniority is being abused and not
36:25 used for the good of the overall company. Right? And so uh you know expecting employees to show respect to people who have who have been promoted merely to give them more perks uh is is is again very destructive to those organizations. So leaders should think of um organizational authority as an exchange. Okay. So if I am more senior in an organization,
37:03 okay, yes, I I may be getting more perks. I may be getting a larger salary or larger expense account or whatever. But what has also increased is my duty to see to it that the people who report to me have an opportunity for professional growth. They have the chance to work on projects that will expand their knowledge, expand their experience, and make them fit for advancement. Okay,
37:39 I I know this sounds kind of weird, like why would I why would a leader in a business have the responsibility to essentially train his, you know, juniors to be able to take over his position? and that's going to undermine him and and that's not going to be good. Wrong wrong perspective. Okay? Any leader who's worth his salt is training someone to take over his position because he's expecting to get promoted. What's going to happen if he gets promoted and there's no one who can
38:14 step into his shoes? The mere fact that he's a cadre of people who can step into his shoes is demonstrating that he's ready to take the next step. Okay, that's the mutuality of obligation between juniors and seniors in the business world. So just like in the military where officers have officers first duty is to take care of their personnel. The same thing is true in business. Okay. Number three,
38:49 small rituals create cultural create organizational culture. So, a salute lasts just a moment, but when it's repeated thousands of times, it it creates a way that the organization sees itself, a way that the organization behaves. Okay? And businesses need to deliberately design rituals um that reinforce the culture of that company. It's not enough to, you know,
39:25 post a mission statement on a website somewhere. That is not culture. That may be a description of culture, but the culture is what happens in the office day after day, right? And so when it comes to meetings, who speaks first at a meeting? How are people treated in a meeting? Right? How are who gets invited to a meeting? How are decisions made? Okay. Uh do we allow people to talk over each other? Okay. Do the most junior
40:01 people have to sit there in silence? Right? All of these things are are giving people in a company important clues about the culture of that company. So I know for the um small management company that I oversee uh we have a we have very open meetings everybody's invited everybody is encouraged to speak their mind to participate to share ideas solutions and it's it's not always me who makes the decision in fact many times in the
40:38 meetings I will say to someone else this is your decision whatever decision you make, I will back you up with with the clients of this company, right? Because I want to create a culture where people can grow professionally and a culture where they can learn to make decisions knowing that sometimes those those decisions may be mistakes and we're not going to clobber them. We're going to recognize the mistake has been made and we're going to fix it and we're going to work together to do that. That is the culture of this
41:14 organization and is in fact the culture of all the organizations that I seek to create. Right? And so all of all of what are see may be may seem like just sort of minor interactions, they all build culture, right? um you know do people pass in the hallways of your company and not even ex acknowledge each other's existence? That does not happen in the military. Okay. Uh one is obligated to give what's called the greeting of the day. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, sir, ma'am, you know, that sort
41:49 of thing. And and it's much like the salute. The junior offers it to the senior. The senior is obligated to return it. We two people do not pass each other by without acknowledging uh you know a fellow human being's existence. Okay the first time they meet each day I should I should uh hasten to add. Right. Uh and and and we want to uh you know hopefully that's part of the culture of our businesses and companies as well right we want organizations where people
42:25 uh acknowledge each other's humanity. our and and as a matter of teamwork, as a matter of courtesy, as a matter of decency. Okay? So, um each company should reinforce these, right, to build that culture. So, uh most companies have rituals. They may not realize it, but they do. They may have a weekly meeting. They may have annual performance review. They may have, you know, periodic all hands meetings. The way promotions are announced, there may be kind of a ritual
43:00 around that. How however executives interact with more junior people is an opportunity to to create a ritual to reinforce the company's culture. Now, that isn't to say that everything should be ritualized. No, it becomes too laborious. But meaningful things should. Okay? And and that's what's important. Okay? So look at all the small things that you do in your organization. Which ones are particularly ripe to turn into
43:35 rituals that can help support the culture of your of your company? Okay, that's number three. Number four, hierarchy works best when everyone understands what it means. So in the military, we have we have uniform, insignia, rank, etc. We have titles. Uh we have chains of command. We have customs like saluting. All of these things reinforce the structure of the hierarchy in the military. Okay. In businesses oftentimes they try to reduce or
44:11 eliminate uh visible signs of hierarchy without eliminating the actual hierarchy. and that that that can make things difficult. So, you know, it wasn't so long ago that uh you know more senior people in in a business were addressed as Mr. or Mrs. whatever and more junior people might be addressed by their first names. Now, everybody's addressed by their first names. It's much more casual. So, uh, you know, organizations
44:47 have been flattened out. Um, and I think that sometimes maybe often that creates some confusion, right? And because once the senior person has made a decision, everyone is is needs to get on board and give their utmost to execute that decision. in what appears to be a flattened out hierarchy, there may be a sense that oh, okay, but I don't like that decision, so I'm I'm not going to work to enact that decision. That's bad
45:22 for the company. It's bad for the organization. It causes uh chaos. It causes dissension, right? And so we need to do things in our businesses that reinforce whatever kind of hierarchy we we have in a way that's beneficial for the organization but also for the people in the organization. So there's uh nothing wrong with um the CEO having more perks than other people
45:58 in the company. he has a lot more responsibility. Okay. Um, do you want to put, you know, stripes on his sleeves like we had in the Navy? Probably not. Um, but as the CEO of a company, I I think that, you know, well, look, you know me, I wear a tie. Um, but you know, the the the CEO should dress the most professionally to set the tone, right? He shouldn't be coming into the office in a jeans and t-shirt. That is that is not that is not what the senior leader of a company
46:34 should be doing. Right? And so businesses like with determining the rituals, businesses need to decide what clues, what indications are they going to create in order that people can understand the hierarchy. Okay? Are they going to insist that senior people be addressed as Mr. or Ms. Maybe that's the right thing to do. If you go in a courtroom, nobody goes, you know, hey Bob, to the judge. The judge is referred to as your
47:10 honor. Okay, that that is the way it's done. Okay, lawyers are referred to as counselor typically by the judge. Okay, that again that is the way it's done. That's good. These sort of formalized recognitions of hierarchy are important in a courtroom because at the end of a hearing, typically the judge is going to give some kind of decision and the parties are obligated to obey that decision. Okay? They may not like it. They may decide to uh appeal that
47:46 decision, but in the meantime, the judge's decision is his decision and that's all. That's it. So just like in a courtroom, we we in businesses, you know, in this other part of the civilian world, we need to figure out what indications of hierarchy work best for our company so that we c so that people can understand how that how the sort of chain of command within a business works and and not make u mistakes to the detriment of the business. Okay. So number four, hierarchies wor work best when every when everybody understands
48:22 them. Okay. Finally, number five, the best leaders, they don't need constant reminders that they're leaders, right? So the the sort of paradox of the of the salute is that um the the person receiving it shouldn't need it for personal validation. It's it's a reminder of the rank and responsibility that the person carries. Um but it is not an indication of that person's self-worth. And um you know I I I I I have witnessed in my career times when
49:00 um uh a a a junior passed by a senior um forgetting to salute um and rather than doing the appropriate thing which is the senior saying, "Pardon me, uh soldier, did you forget something?" You know, and and and kind of Oh, yes, sir. Pardon me. Thank you very much. That that's all that's necessary. I've seen officers go off. How dare you walk by me without saluting. Right. They take it as a personal affront. It's not a personal
49:36 affront. It's an affront to their office perhaps, but that they take it personally is wrong. Because the salute if that if that officer needs that salute to feel like he's a great leader, he's not a great leader. For sure not. Right? And so leaders in business, they need to not require uh um gestures of difference. Okay?
50:12 They should engage in those practices because it's good for the organization of the company. It's good for the business. It helps things run more smoothly. But there shouldn't be anything created in a business for the personal gratification of anyone in the business. I know I make that clear with with the people with whom I work whether it's well I I don't have employees in my own companies but for the companies that I oversee um as assets in the estate I make it clear nothing that's going on here is should
50:49 be about you know pumping my ego quite to the contrary okay whatever we're going to do it needs to be for the good of the company and as gestures of mutual ual respect. Okay. Uh and um I you know I have been in situations and meetings where um this happens mostly with clients frankly where the client wants this sort of differential behavior from uh from from someone that they view as being an underling. Now it is the case
51:25 that in [snorts] a business we serve clients. We take care of their needs. But as people, we are not lesser human beings than our clients and customers, right? And so this the same holds true for clients and customers that holds true of leaders. Okay? All of the rituals, the gestures that reinforce a hierarchy, that show mutual respect, that develop the culture, they need to
52:00 be for the benefit of what we're doing, not for the ego of the individuals. Okay? So, um, you know, insecure leaders, there's all kinds of things that they tend to back like who were they copied on an email? Uh, where were they seated? You know, were they consulted on a particular uh uh, you know, issue that was being discussed? Did they receive proper credit? Did someone go around them? Right? Was their title displayed correct? All these things, right? I know
52:36 um my my my nephew works for a kind of small to medium-sized company and and you know we've talked about these kind of things. It's it's not polite to go around someone who's senior than you. Okay? It it's it's it's not a good thing to do politically. Uh but if someone does so inadvertently, how the person who was potentially slighted responds to that will tell you a lot about the quality of their leadership. Okay? Especially if it's the first time it happened. If it's the first time it happened, it could have
53:11 been done. You know, the person just wasn't thinking or maybe the senior addressed the person and the person felt like they had to respond. they didn't actually go around the other person, right? So, if things if if if what appears to be a slight to, you know, to you as an individual happens in your company, take a step back, f why did this happen? What was going on there? Was it really meant to be slight? Now, that's not to discount. Sometimes juniors do want to slight their uh their
53:46 seniors. It does happen. That's not a good thing either, right? But getting upset about it, yelling, screaming, not appropriate, right? Th those things need to be appropriately uh they need to be dealt with appropriately, right? And so, um there is, you know, some protocol is necessary. uh but when a breach of protocol happens so the the useful question for a leader to ask is am I defending the requirements of my role or am I defending my sense of importance if it's
54:22 the former okay good if it's the latter that's a problem not good right so um strong leadership makes a hierarchy useful weak leadership makes a hierarchy be personal and that is to the detriment of the business. So um in closing couple of thoughts here the salute is easy to misunderstand because it looks like a gesture of submission but its meaning is really much more about the institution
54:59 and the culture of the institution. It is a mutual gesture demonstrating the mutual obligations of people within the military and the same attitude needs to be fostered in businesses today in in private sector organizations today. So good leaders, they don't eliminate hierarchies. They make hierarchies legitimate by using authority in the service of the organization.
55:34 The salute isn't supposed to say um you're more important than I am. It's it's it's supposed to say I recognize the authority and responsibility of your position and we both recognize the institution that gave it to you. That's a very different idea and we need to we need to build the same kind of institutional loyalty in our companies that the military builds in itself. So, I'm curious to know how you do this in
56:11 your organization. What rituals, gestures, protocols do you have to help people be aware of the pro of the hierarchy within your organization, of the institutional culture of your organization. Look right down below you, you'll see links to the show notes and drop a comment in there. Always glad to read them. Would love to be able to respond. Uh, so real quickly, schedule of shows. All of these are Pacific time. Mondays at 10:00 a.m. Trust in Estates weekly. Tuesdays like today at at 10, uh, business lessons from the military.
56:47 Wednesdays at 10:00 a.m. uh, people making money, and every other Thursday at 5:00 p.m., join me at Jiggers's place for a cocktail and a smoo. and we'll talk about all kinds of things not related to finances like books, movies, ideas, relationships, etc. So, I thank you so much for joining me, wishing you a wonderful rest of the day and signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.