0:04 Who are you and where are [music] you going? What do you want? For the next [music] 24 minutes, we're going to design and attain your ideal life on the Way to Wow show. Together, we'll find the ideal path to get you back on the track to success and happiness on the Way to Wow Show with your host, Kevin Bemel.
0:49 Are you having trouble with difficult people? Maybe more so lately than before. Separation is supposed to make the heart grow fonder, but I'm not really sure that that's working out quite that way these days. So, we're going to speak to my guest today. He wrote the book on how to deal with difficult people. So, Bin mix this up for us. Thank you. That looks very nice. We're going to give that a try. Yeah, we are. Thank you. Happy days, right? Thank you. Thank you. Cheers. Thank you.
1:30 What a symphony of taste. Well, thank you. That's such a good thing. I love that statement right there. You know, if I would be if I would be um 40 years younger, I would put that on the table and snap an Instagram of it. Yes, you would. But I did read I'm in the middle of reading an excellent author called um Paul Laroo, and he's written some wonderful travel logs and and explained some wonderful things about countries. And I suddenly noticed there no photographs in any of his books. And then I found an essay of his and he explains why he doesn't take photographs. And he says, "Everybody says a picture is worth a thousand words."
2:05 He says a picture is only worth a thousand words. In other words, understanding it, looking at it, enjoying it, describing it um is so much more than a thousand words. So, you know, with this kind of drink, you really feel you want to really just spend some time writing about it. Yeah, it's very it's very it's very complex. It's delicious. Oh, perfect. I love that. No, that's what I love so much about it. It's clean, but yet there is like a symphony of flavors in there. So, a real symphony. Just lovely and and and balance. Yes. Thank you. My guest is Raphael Lapen. He's a lawyer. He's the founder of Lapen
2:41 Negotiation Services. also happens to be a rabbi and he was a participant in the Harvard negotiation project with um William Uri and uh Roger Fiser. So that gives you an idea of of the practical and the academic background that Raphael is coming from. And he's I I invited him here today to talk to us about a subject that he he wrote the book about which is dealing with difficult people. Right. And today in with with all the pressures that are coming on, it seems to me it's
3:16 it's ever harder to deal with our colleagues, maybe even our families, our family members. Not so much because they're difficult people per se, but the circumstances under which we're all operating these days just makes life complex. It makes it taxing sometimes. So, so Raphael, talk to us if you would this about this idea of of dealing with difficult people. I've got all sorts of stories I can share about that. Um, so first of working with difficult people, we tend
3:51 to think anytime we come across a difficult person that is pathologically p pathologically difficult. Um, you know, and um and it's it's him, it's not me. The truth of the matter is there very very few pathologically difficult people in the world. Um I don't know if I've come across any um mo most times it's not pathological pathological at all. So the very first thing that I do when I come across a difficult person that I have to work with or negotiate with or or resolve a dispute with um I ask myself what am I doing or not doing
4:29 that is enabling him to be difficult. Um, and then I asked myself, what new ingredient can I mix put into this mix in this dynamic uh of our inter interaction um that could possibly change uh the direction of the conversation uh that would make him less difficult uh and might be more listening and might be more acknowledgement uh it might be some some other tool or technique uh that I need to introduce. Um but the very first thing is to ask yourself what am I doing? What can I introduce here? If we continue along this line, it'll continue
5:04 on its own inertia. So, it won't change unless I actually introduce something new. Okay. Okay. And one of the key things that I think people need uh in terms of any times you're having conversations with people um and things may be getting difficult is people need to feel heard and understood. And uh many people don't want to acknowledge or understand the other party or demonstrate understanding uh because they they confuse understanding with agreeing and that's not true. Those are two very very different concepts. I can understand you immaculately. I can argue
5:40 your case more articulately and more compellingly than you can argue it yourself and still not necessarily agree with you. In fact, my mentor Roger Fischer in Harvard used to argue cases in front of the Supreme Court. And he would start his conversation and start his arguments uh by arguing his opponent's arguments and he would argue them far more compellingly and the judge would get confused. The judge would say, "Mr. Fisher, who are you on?" [laughter] Um and uh Roger would say, "Um, bear with me, your honor. I'm getting there." And after having demonstrated immaculate
6:17 understanding of his opponent, he would say, "And your honor," there's a different way of looking that is as at that as well. And then introduce his own. Um he didn't use but your honor. He said, "And because but is the grand eraser. It erases everything comes before. You're wonderful, you're gorgeous, you're smart, brilliant, a but." But just takes everything away. So you want to kind sort of keep away from from that. In work with difficult people, phrasiology is really really important. Um, but I think the key the key point over here is there's a difference between understanding somebody and agreeing with somebody. So, one of the things I'm hearing in what
6:53 you just said is if I'm confronted with a difficult person. So, I'm I'm looking at that person, you're difficult, you're this, you're the problem. What you're suggesting is instead of making the person and and and and in so doing I give up all my power over that situation. Whereas if I say okay what am I doing maybe that's causing this person to react or respond the way they are and how can I change that? In in some ways
7:28 it sounds to me like I'm sort of taking the power back to me. Well, you are you can be well take that example that you just said. Let's say you were attacking me as you just kind of demonstrated and said you were difficult. Just I gave you a cocktail first before I attacked you. So [laughter] just keep that in mind. And you're saying you know you're difficult you're doing this you're doing that. So, I can either argue with you and say, "What are you talking about?" I'm not. You're the one who's difficult. Or I can say to you, um, Kevin, I'm hearing a lot of frustration in your voice and in the words that you're saying. I'd like to hear more about what that is.
8:03 So, I'm now regaining control over that conversation. I'm not reacting to it. I'm taking control over it in a very subtle authentic way, not in a doineering sort of way. And you can be in control of any conversation. Doesn't matter what conversation it is. um whether it's at a dinner table conversation or whether it's a top negotiation uh conversation, uh you're far more in control when you're doing good active listening, demonstrating understanding and asking very good questions because you can funnel the conversation with the questions that you're asking and just the energy between the two is so
8:38 much different, you know, that it could change the conversation. So that's an example how to introduce something new. we, you know, you'd be attacking me, you were difficult, you did this, you did that, and all instead of defending, I say, Kevin, I really want to understand why I'm hearing a lot of frustration from you. Um, and there's obviously some deep concerns. Um, and I'm upset and and so on. Please help me understand a bit more. And when you make that paradigm shift, I mean, should one expect an immediate shift in the other person or is this more of an iterative process?
9:14 That's a great question. It depends. Sometimes you have to do several cycles of it. We just had a recent case I can share with you. Um, this is I was doing work on behalf of a client who wanted me to negotiate a settlement on a an existing court judgment for about $4 or5 million. And um I contacted the opposing lawyer and he was he's been to negotiation 101 where they teach you make the get the other side to make the first proposal um and his first thing was quite offensive and he said well you make a proposal. Now of course you know how the story goes. You make the proposal and then before you know it you know they flinch and you're negotiating against yourself,
9:49 right? Um and he was quite offensive and and not engaging at all. And eventually I said to him, I said, "We can make the first proposal, but it'll be dead on arrival because we can't make a proposal unless we really understand what your client's concerns are. And if we understand what some of your client's concerns are, we can then make a responsive proposal that responds to some of those concerns. So why don't we start off perhaps with having an exchange of what each of our clients needs are in this particular case and then I put a list of four or five questions and that changed the entire I mean we're now on firstname terms um and
10:25 and very respectful to one another and working out an agreement for to to settle this case. Um, so, so that was an example. I had to do it several times cuz he came back several times. Well, you make the first proposal. You're not making the first proposal. Uh, and explain to him why that doesn't make sense. And he thought I was trying to play some sort of trick or tactic on him. Um, but then once that trust once he got that trust, it just opened things up very nicely. So, I I I got the high sign, but I I have to ask this question. Um, does it help in those situations to let the person know, look, I'm not trying to play any games with you. I I I I I
11:02 sincerely want to find out, you know, what what your client needs and wants. You know what I'm saying? Be that level of cander or you're asking great. We could spend the whole day on this. This is this is uh, you know, this is an area I'm very passionate about. Um, so two things. First of all, you want to build trust. you want you want to engage in a process where the process itself fosters and generates trust. Okay. Um and and and that's got to be authentic. Um so when I'm trying to understand you, I have to generally be interested and curious. I call it constructive curiosity about what some of your concerns are. Um so that's
11:38 that's really important. The other thing is that most people see negotiation as a series of tricks and tactics. And when you're involved in tricks and tactics, you want to hide from the other side what you're doing. Um, when you're involved in an authentic process of negotiation and a genuine process of negotiation, you can be fully transparent about the process that you're using. So, I would say to you, you know, Kevin, I think as we move forward, it might be a good idea before we throw out proposals to really understand each other's needs and maybe then see if we can somehow find some joint solutions to some of the conflicting needs. How does that sound to you? So um I I'll be completely
12:14 transparent about the process. So in in in this case really relationships and negotiations are just part and parcel of each other. It's so much part of part and that's what President Reagan figured out with with Gorbachov and Thatra um that that in order to get where they wanted to get with the Soviet Union um both from from Gorbach's point of view who really drove uh those negotiations um uh but it was all based on relationships. M uh in fact it's sort of funny the very first meeting that Reagan met with with Gorbachov he wanted to break the ice so he tells him the
12:49 following joke Reagan's there Gorbach was there the translators there a couple of national security advisers are there and Reagan very first time he met him in in Switzerland he says he tells a joke about this guy two guys who were arguing about the benefits of of of the US and and and the Soviet Union and um the American guy walks says you know you don't understand the freedom of speech in America So there's nothing stopping me from walking into the Oval Office, banging on the president's desk and saying, "Mr. President, I don't like the way you're running this country." And the Russian says, "You know, I don't see anything great about it. We can do exactly the same thing." Really? How can
13:26 you do that? So this is nothing stopping us from walking into the uh general secretary's office, banging on his desk, and saying, "Mr. General Secretary, we don't like the way the president of the United States is running [clears throat] his country. [laughter] AND that and that was the very first joke that President Reagan told Gorbachov on his very first meeting. Um so so and you know they really hits it off personally. So you can achieve so much more um by by building a trusting relationship with somebody and and conducting a very genuine
14:01 authentic process of negotiation. Well, we're going to have to end it there, but uh there is obviously much much much more here. Yeah. And um hopefully we'll we'll we'll have you back to talk even more. I'll be happy to be happy to and and thank you so much for having having me. This is You're welcome. A treat. Thank you. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. So that's our show for this week. Tune in next week where we're going to have a very special edition of the Way to Wow Show featuring human optimization expert Andy Walsh. He's going to help my colleague Sierra
14:37 Barrett and me work through our own personal barriers to making a better life for ourselves. Courage at all times, my friends. Marie, you're still my bell.