0:00 Who are you? And where are you going? What do you [Music] want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemel, and we're here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about all of those matters related to estate planning and trust and estate administration, both from your personal
0:35 needs and also um for professionals like myself who help people with handling their trust and estate situations, their estate planning. So today I'm going to talk about um a uh a subject that has long been a part of my uh professional career. So um most of you who have watched the show know that before becoming a prof a professional fiduciary and independent trustee I was in the Navy. Prior to
1:11 that, I had a real estate services company here in Los Angeles for 20 years. And one of the services that we provided the entire time I I had that company was uh property management and uh some asset management as well. And uh so and one of my primary uh clients during that time uh was uh Jewish family services um conservatorship program. So I was involved with a lot of of estate matters and conservatorship matters the
1:46 same kind of thing that I do um as as a uh as an independent trustee and and probate administrator. So, and and currently one of in one of the estates uh that I'm administrating um there is a real estate services company very similar uh to to the one I had before I joined the Navy and I administrate that company as one of the assets of the estate. So, it's been interesting to be sort of back involved in in that world. Um tangentially, I don't work for the
2:21 company. I I administrated as as an asset. Uh and so um I what I want to talk about today are the unique well I unique is maybe too strong a word but managing a property that's going through probate is different than managing a property that is not going through probate. So those are, you know, those are two different animals and I think it's it's valuable if you're a property owner to understand what some of those differences are and if you are a
2:57 fiduciary or or a lawyer or accountant uh who who deals with estates or for that matter if you are in the real estate business. Um it's good to know what are the special concerns that with which you're going to have to deal um when you're managing a property that is going through probate. It's it's it is by no means the same uh situation as just you know handling a property. So I I made a list of of seven uh and um I
3:32 think these these cover pretty uh pretty uh thoroughly um the various issues that uh need that you need to take into account. So, first of all, right off the top, if you're going to manage a property that's going through probate, the first thing you need to do is confirm that indeed the deceased owned the property and that there are there are no other claims existing um against the property. So, I'll give you an
4:07 example of of where um this could come into play. I'm I'm I've been nominated to be the administrator of an estate that owns uh it's it's really just a single family residence, a house. Um partway through the nomination process, all of a sudden, a supposed trust uh appeared that owned half the house. And the trustee of that trust is or well was he he happened to have died recently was
4:42 the grtor's exhusband right and the uh the the grtor um I I won't get into the details but if if you were going to be taking that property on to manage manage it, especially in this interim period. So, there's a question who owns that house. Um, the matter is is slowly making its way through the courts and it's it's not at all clear
5:18 which way this this is going to work out. Now, like so many of these cases where there's a dispute, an awful lot of time and money is being spent on uh the various sides um claiming that, you know, they're right and the other side is wrong. Um my attitude is look, it's it it it's a house. There are only um you know, two one or two beneficiaries, whatever it is. Uh at this point, why are you wasting money fighting? But but people love to fight. So uh but in any event, if you were
5:55 going to uh take on the management of that property, um it would be unclear who has the authority to contract you to do so. And whereas if um let's say the the the trustee under the trust contracted you uh you might say well that's that's solid because you know the trust doesn't need court approval and all of that. Well, under normal circumstances, yes, that's true. But in this case, um, there's been a challenge to the validity of the trust, and you could do an awful
6:31 lot of work and end up finding out that since the trust hired you and the and it and the and if the court were to decide that the trust in fact never owned the property, the trust was invalid, um, if you'd been paid, the court could require you to essentially discourage those those payments. If you hadn't been paid, it's unlikely that you would get paid. Well, I I I don't want to say unlikely. There's there's a a chance that you would be denied payment. Uh and so and and and worse if you had advanced uh
7:08 monies. Um so I have another uh uh administration where uh in in in this case it was the previous administrator advanced money to pay property taxes and all kinds of things and then the will under which uh she was uh appointed uh was declared a fraud by the court and now she's applying to get all kinds of reimbursements. It's not clear that the court is going to order those reimbursements. um it you know the court may decide that she was a party to the fraud um in in which case um it would
7:43 deny reimbursement. So, when you're going to handle real estate, um you first and foremost you need to deal with title and ownership issues and make sure that uh the the person who is contracting you has the authority uh well that that that the um that the owner of the property um that that the deceased owned the property and that there aren't now complete competing claims for for ownership of the property. property. Okay. Um and and closely um associated
8:19 with that is do you need court approval and and who has um who has the authority to administrate the property? So, um, pardon me. If just because someone is named as an executive in a will, that does not give them authority to administrate the property prior to the court granting a petition for them to administrate the property and issuing letters of administration. That's what they're
8:54 called here in California. In in uh Alabama, for example, they're called letters testimeamentary. But in essence, it's the issuance of the letters whether to an executive or to an administrator or what's sometimes called a personal representative encompasses both categories. Um until those letters those letters are what gives the personal representative the authority to act on behalf of the estate. So even if it's clear that the deedent owned the property and now the property is held by the estate and there's no contest to
9:31 that ownership. Nonetheless, the executive or administrator does not have the authority to hire someone to manage that property until the letters are issued. Okay. and that you know there in fact the administrator has no decisionmaking authority prior to issuance of the letter. Now things can be done to prepare for when the letters are issued. Okay. So for example the administrator may have the petition for administration
10:08 may have been granted. Okay. And that would be a matter of public record. You could if your court if if your jurisdiction has an online portal for the court, you'd be able to find that order. And it may just be a matter of the administrator having to postpond and the lawyer having to submit the letters and then the court signs them and issues them. Okay. So once the order has been um once the petition, I'm sorry, has been granted. So the the personal representative, the administrator may say, "Hey, go please send me a management agreement
10:44 uh and I'll go ahead and review it in advance." That way once I have the letters, I can go ahead and the agreement can already be worked out. I can sign it immediately and we can get going. By the way, the same would be true of listing the property for sale. Until letters have been issued, the administrator does not have authority to list the prop well to sign a listing agreement, which is listing the property. However, he can look he can review a listing agreement um get any questions answered, all of that. So, there's there's nothing wrong with doing advance work. Just understand
11:21 that there there can always be lastm minute challenges. And so you could you could draft that property management agreement, that listing agreement, and uh you know, after the court has granted a petition and at the 11th hour and 59th minute, as they say, something could happen that would cause the court to uh not issue letters pending the resolution of of some kind of dispute. So for example, let's say that um the deedent appears to have died in test state.
11:56 Okay. And then after the petition for administration is granted, a will pops up. Okay. And that will may have uh heirs in it that are that are different than who would inherit uh the assets of the estate in test state. Okay. So they may challenge uh the appointment of the administrator um for for various reasons. Okay. Especially if there is bad blood um between the intestate heirs and heirs
12:34 that other would would only qualify because there's a will. Um there may be a lack of trust. All kinds of things come up. um you really see uh a proctologist view of life uh when you work uh in in in this area. And so just know if you are going to do uh like draft an agreement in advance, you know, don't don't be counting your chickens before they hatch as they say. Uh until those letters are issued, the the the agreement um cannot be signed. Okay. The other thing is also you need to know
13:09 what authority the personal representative has. So a personal representative can have full authority which means basically they can do anything um that needs to be done to administrate the estate uh generally speaking without uh court approval or confirmation. And they might have they might have limited authority. So they might have been appointed as a special administrator for example who for sure would have limited authority or they might be appointed as administrator but with limited authority. So for example they may not
13:45 have authority uh to sell property or to uh to mortgage property those kind of things without the court's approval. Okay. So if they're going to sell a property they can list it. Okay. but they're going to have to apply to the court to confirm or approve the sale uh once a buyer is found. Okay. Now, when it comes to engaging a property manager, so typically uh even under limited authority, um the administrator would
14:20 have that, but you know, you just you just never know. So, it's always a a good idea if you're going to be dealing with real estate uh to uh get a copy of the letters of administration or or the letters testimeamentary and see what authority does the administrator have. I wouldn't take that uh for granted. Okay. All right. So court approval um the extent of the authority of the personal representative that's another aspect of uh handling managing property
14:56 in probate that would be that's different than managing uh property that is not going through probate. Okay. Next we I mentioned heirs or beneficiaries. So uh it while generally speaking the administration of an estate is done for the benefit of the heirs and/or beneficiaries. Hence the term beneficiaries. Okay. Uh that does not give heirs or beneficiaries any authority to make
15:31 decisions or dictate decisions. Okay. So, you might get a call from somebody saying, "Hey, uh, you know, my my my father passed away um last month and he owns this apartment building and um I I need someone to manage the apartment building." You say, "Oh, okay. Well, so your is your father who passed away?" Yes. So, then you're an heir. Yes. And and that's according to a will. Um, yes. Okay. Right. And and are you the
16:07 executive of the estate? No. Okay. Well, right then and there, you know that you're not talking with someone who has the authority to engage you. Okay. So, um, you know, you can say to the heir, well, if if you'd like to refer me to the executive or to the administrator, I'm I'm happy to talk with him about, uh, taking on the management of this property. um you know, but unfortunately um if you're not the executive or the administrator, the personal representative, uh you don't
16:44 have the authority to contract me to uh to manage the property and and so for me to be handling the property under those circumstances would would would be wrong. Um or however you want you want to phrase that. Okay. Um and and I I I would say I would be careful with these kind of things because um it's not it's not unusual for heirs and beneficiaries to try and usurp authority uh and and and and sort and you know get a hold of the proceeds um that that
17:20 otherwise should be going to the estate and take them directly themselves. Again, I'm I'm dealing with a situation where uh the one I mentioned a few minutes ago um that um for it took three years for this will to be declared fraudulent. In the meantime, it appears that the uh heirs to the estate or the beneficiaries basically, you know, took all of the money in bank accounts and that kind of stuff. Okay? And that's prejuditial to um the uh the it was an entity fighting
17:56 um to prove that the will was fraudulent because they're owed a tremendous amount of money. And so now um you know some of the it it may be I can't I can't say for sure. I'm just starting this, but it may be that some of the assets of the estate um were were taken essentially under false pretenses and now we're not there to to settle the debt. Okay. So um you know again some skepticism is is worthwhile. I I would also say that um if you um have been correctly uh
18:34 employed or contracted by the personal representative the of the estate to manage uh the property or list the property. So your communication should be with the personal representative not the heirs. If the heirs contact you and want information, unless you have been specifically directed by the personal representative to give a a specific individual information, and by the way, I would get that authorization in writing. Um, you should only be uh communicating with the
19:11 personal representative who who then has who then can deal with the heirs and the beneficiaries. um if necessary and as needed. That's really within the scope of duties of the administrator. Okay? So, uh you know, you you don't want to usurp the administrator's role. You don't want to overstep the boundaries. Um and and the fact of the matter is you may be you may have the best of intentions in in you know passing along information. Um but in doing so you might inadvertently cause a dispute to
19:48 arise. Um and now uh you know there there's there's a problem um you know that that that that is that could delay um the the closing of the probate or could cost money to resolve etc etc. Okay. Next um ex ongoing expenses and maintenance. So um in general now assuming now that you have the authority from the duly uh lettered um uh administrator to manage the property.
20:24 Okay. So um you know your duty is to then perform all of the uh the things that a a that are you know competent property manager would do. So pay property taxes, take take care of any loans, insurance, utility bills, all all should be kept current. Now presum if it's a incomeroucing property, presumably there will be funds uh to pay for those things. If if there is not, then before taking on the management of that property, it would be wise to
21:00 inquire. Let's say you've been asked to manage a single family residence that's vacant. Okay? and and and the you know the uh the administrator wants someone to make sure that you know the the landscapecape is maintained and you know um whatever you know needs to be done in the house is taken care of whatever. Okay. So it would be wise to inquire how will those uh items be paid for since the property is producing no income. Okay. Because again, if you
21:38 advance those monies, okay, while you will have a claim against the probate, um it's that claim is not necessarily automatic and so you may have to file a claim in probate in order to get those costs reimbursed. So I would clarify that and make it part of your agreement uh how you know how funds uh you know either advanced are going to be reimbursed or how funds necessary for the the for m for managing the property maintaining the property are are you
22:15 know where they're going to come from. Okay. Now, uh, one of the advantages, if you will, of being in probate is, let's say there are no funds to pay the loan, okay? Um, there for whatever reason, there's no liquid assets, okay? And and since there's no liquid assets and um, you know, just because you've been hired to manage the property doesn't mean that you're required to advance those funds. Uh well the if the lender chose to
22:51 foreclose, okay, then the administrator and again it wouldn't be you but it would be you know you'd be advising the administrator. Um hey you know here's we got a notice of default. uh you know so then it would be his responsibility to petition the court for um a for not a forbearance for to to basically for an order uh stopping the foreclosure. Okay. Now um perhaps a forbearance could be negotiated with the lender but and and you may be a part of that. Okay. But if
23:28 you are going to do something like that, the authority to do that doesn't come from you per se. It it's the administrator who has the authority. Okay? And this goes back to what I was talking about a little while ago. So um what is the extent of the personal representatives authority? Does he have um you know does he have the authority to negotiate with an existing lender for some kind of forbearance agreement or for to renegotiate terms of a loan those kind of things. Okay. If he does then uh
24:06 he can delegate that authority to you. Okay. and then you know dos vida as we say um although if a forbearance agreement is going to be entered into it's probably not something as a property manager you would want to sign the the personal representative would would be the correct person to sign it. Okay. But but in any event uh uh the you know the the probate court can stop a foreclosure. Okay. It can also I I believe stop a property tax
24:43 sale. So, um I mean it would be presumably a long probate where where you would get to the point where the tax assessor was actually um going to sell a property for unpaid property taxes. I think here in California it's four or five years, but it's not outside of the realm of possibility. And if if a pro that look this this case that I mentioned, I'm using this case a lot because it's it's it's such an unusual case. It took three years uh for uh the will to be declared a fraud by the court. If the property taxes had been
25:18 unpaid for that entire three-year period, another year or two, it's possible that the tax assessor might try and take sell the property for back property taxes. Okay. So presumably if that were the case, I would, you know, I would go to the court and I would petition the court to uh essentially prevent the the tax sale with the understanding that once the property was sold um you know the the property taxes would be paid and they would have to be before
25:53 the new buyer would take ownership of the property because they're not going to take ownership subject to the well I want shouldn't say not, but it's unlikely they would take ownership of the property subject to um that that lean for unpaid taxes. Okay. Other things that are unusual from an ongoing operations and expense perspective in a probate are the death of the owner may give the lender the right to call the loan. So, I've got a case like that right now where
26:28 uh the when the lender when the lender was notified that the owner had died um they decided to call the loan. Now, I mean, I think it was a foolish decision on their part um especially because they refused to accept payment while we're in the process payments I should say while we're in the process of refinancing the loan. Uh, but that's what they chose to do. Why did they choose to do it? Well, they had they had the authority according to the loan documents to do so. And the interest rate on the loan was was pretty low. So, I think they were thinking, well, you
27:05 know, we'll we'll call the loan, we'll get the money back. Uh, and then we'll turn around and lend them, you know, lend the money out at a higher interest rate. Um, you know, in the event it's been um almost a year, um, they've gotten no payments. Now eventually they will you know get their back interest or whatever uh but um you know that'll all be subject uh to you know to to the court if they try and gouge the estate. So um you know unfortunately um I I mean
27:40 my perspective they made a bad decision. they should have either just, you know, let the loan continue or they should have done um, you know, some kind of forbearance agreement or or something like that. Um, but they didn't do that. However, um, you know, they they had they had the right to do so under their loan documents and so they did. So again, that's different a different situation than you would find in just the typical managing of a property for a live owner. While the lender has reasons why it can call the debt, generally those have to do with uh you know
28:15 non-payment of loan payments, non-payment of property taxes, the property not being insured, those kinds of things. So um this is an added uh issue when you're dealing with property of a deceased owner that's going through pro probate. Okay. And and then the fourth thing about ongoing operations of a property is um it is important that routine maintenance and repairs and security be looked after. Uh it is not uncommon for for example uh squatters to take to take
28:51 up residence in a vacant property and if a property is going through probate and it wasn't occupied uh well and and you know maybe the deedent lived there and so now nobody's living there or maybe it wasn't occupied um at the time of the owner's death he lived somewhere else. So, you know, people look for these opportunities, especially here in a state like California, um, where squatters can acrue uh what what amounts to a lot of seeming rights to be in the property even though they came into possession uh through
29:27 through trespassing. Okay? So, you're go, you know, you're going to need to be uh diligent about this uh and and make sure that uh you know, the property is inspected regularly and that um you know, no one is on the premises who is not supposed to be, etc. So, all of those play into the ongoing uh operations ex maintenance and expenses for the property. Okay. So, I'm going to just take a break here for a minute. Uh, and and that and that is I'm trying to
30:02 remember to do this more regularly. Um, I want to tell you about uh the uh LinkedIn group that that I started uh a while back. It's called trust trusts and estate experts and it's a forum that that you can join where you can ask questions about estate planning and trust and probate administration and also interact with uh professionals who like me who do this for a living. Uh so if you're a lawyer and you have an
30:38 accounting question, there's accountants in the group and you can say, "Hey, you know, how how do you see an issue like this handled, right? It's a it's all a matter of professional courtesy." So, you know, nobody's getting nobody has to pay for advice. Um but we all uh kind of work together to help each other out and to make our practices go more smoothly, to do a better job for our clients. That's that's the intent of the group. So again, it's called Trusts and Estate Experts. It's on LinkedIn. Just search that name and you will find the group
31:14 and and click the little button asking to be admitted and I will be uh happy to admit you. Also, if you produce content on estate planning and trust and probate administration, this is an ideal place to get additional contact um I'm sorry, additional uh um exposure for that content. Okay. So for example, my friend Lori uh Israel who's an expert on prenuptual agreements which is an aspect which can be an aspect of estate planning. you'll if if you join the group, you'll see her posts from time to
31:51 time and there's a couple of other people who post from time to time relevant uh content and and and um I I I screen it all but uh I I will tell you that these are all highly competent professionals um looking this isn't you know people saying hey give me business give me business not not at all it's people who are sincerely interested in helping uh you colleagues uh better better serve their clients and become more knowledgeable. So again uh one last time the name of the group is trusts and
32:26 estate experts and I encourage you to go on LinkedIn and and and and join the group. Okay. So um going going back to the subject for the show uh this is Trust and Estates Weekly. Can you see the uh you know the theme here? and we're talking about managing property in probate, the the special issues that one has to deal with when handling a pro a property that is in probate. So, so far I've talked about uh title and ownership
33:01 issues, uh court approval and and the authority and who has the authority uh to to hire someone to manage property. We've talked about errors and beneficiaries and we've talked about ongoing operations, maintenance and expenses for the property. Okay. Next is insurance considerations. So, uh the insure insurance company for a property uh should be notified that the owner has passed away and arrangements need to be made to ensure coverage. Now
33:37 uh in some cases and and I I had this uh situation when I administrated uh this in this case was actually um a trust in Alabama when the uh when the last of the two grandours died. Um this is I'm talking about my dear Marie who I always salute at the end of the show. So when she passed away, she had been living in the house owned by the trust and now the house was vacant. And so I notified the
34:13 insurance company and they let me know that the insurance would stay in force until the current term was up. But unless the property were occupied at that point, the policy would cancel because the current insurance company uh did not ensure vacant single family residences. Okay. So, and in the event I did have to find a different insurance carrier. Now, because uh Marie had been a long and her husband uh Jack, my um because they had been uh
34:51 longtime uh clients of this particular um insurance brokerage, uh they worked with me because it wasn't particularly easy to find a new insurance carrier. And so they I think I they actually got me a little bit of extra time uh with the current carrier uh while I got the policy in place. And so I I would encourage you you know work with uh in in the case of insurance work with you know the people who you know the brokers or or whoever that uh currently uh handle the
35:29 policy. Okay. Insurance is a very difficult issue to deal with in the real estate markets uh these days. And uh um uh you you want everybody on your side. I'll put it to you that way. You want everybody on your side. And and um in in my experience, um most insurance brokers want to do a good job. Um they want to help their clients out. Uh but you know here in California there have been several insurers that pulled out of the
36:04 market and there wasn't anything the broker was going to do that that was going to reverse that decision. So um the best that they could do is is is you know is help a customer over a difficult uh time. So you know work with them. Um there are some insurance brokers that they represent just a single carrier like like if they represent State Farm or Farmers something like that. There are other u insurance brokers who who represent multiple lines. And so you know if if the current insurance company
36:39 will is going to cancel for some for some reason, that broker may be able to find coverage with another carrier. And since they already insure the property, they know the various issues. And so they may very well be the best uh insurance broker to use. Okay? And you may say, "Well, if there's problems, wouldn't I be better using a broker that doesn't know about the problems?" Well, maybe. But if you hide problems from an insurance company and then you have to file a claim and they find out
37:14 that you hid the problems, they may deny coverage and and now you've got, you know, a mess. So, you know, oftentimes it's best to, as they say, you know, dance with the uh with dance with the guy that br you, I think it is. Uh so so be, you know, be aware of the of the insurance issues if you're going to be managing a property that's that's in probate, okay? Especially if there's a a change in occupancy as a result. Uh and and by the way, uh if if it's a a house and the owner
37:52 dies and and now the plan is to let's say rent out the house. Okay. So whereas if the owner were still alive, the insurance coverage might be able to continue even with a tenant occupying the the property. If the owner has died, the insurance company may not continue coverage because it's a different kind of risk to rent a property to a tenant than it is to the owner. So again, all of this needs to be dealt with uh candidly with with the insurance company
38:28 or the insurance broker representing it. Okay, that segus into tenant or occupant issues. Okay, so uh if if the property is a single family residence where the deedent lived, now the deedent is dead, right? And now the property is vacant. Okay, so that kind of gives you that that that is what it is, right? Now the there may have been multiple occupants of the property and now the the owner the deceit is is the deedent. He's dead and
39:04 left behind somebody who's not an owner and in fact may not even be an heir or may be an heir but there are other heirs. So now the occupant of the property could be sort of grounds if you will for a dispute. Okay. So it would be it would not be wise to assume that someone on the premises either has a right to be on the premises or is an heir or is a beneficiary. I would not make any of
39:39 those assumptions. All of that needs to be figured out. So, I'm dealing with a case right now where uh the owner of a property has died, left behind his partner, and the partner has no legal standing at all in terms of being an heir. Okay? But he's trying to essentially get uh ownership of the house. In the meantime, he lives in the house. Okay? So, uh, you know, this is and this is a difficult situation because, um, some of the heirs want him
40:15 there only as a foil to the other heirs and the other heirs are saying he he's not permitted to be there. He's not permitted to profit off the estate in this way. He either needs to pay rent or get out, right? And, uh, in the meantime, we're working to get, you know, an administrator appointed, right? And so the the occupancy issues loom large. And you know, one could make the argument it's better for somebody to be there rather than for the property to be vacant and subject to, you know, potentially squatters. On the other hand, we don't know what the
40:51 current occupant is doing. uh he could be you know taking things out of the house and sort of squirreing them away where uh the who you know whoever is appointed to administrate the estate won't be able to find them right so these are all they're all difficult situations but they are aspects of what happens when a property is going through probate okay so if the if it's a some kind of income property okay and there are leases rental agreements whatever so okay you the the leases are going to continue the if the property was um
41:29 owned by the individual directly. Okay, so let's say I own a prop let's say I own an apartment building and it's owned in the name of Kevin Bemel. Okay, I'm not advising that by the way. I'm just saying I'm just using as an example. So then when I die the pro the owner of the property will become the estate of Kevin Beel. Okay. And um notification should be given to the uh tenants. Okay. And in the future um the tenants should be uh paying their
42:04 rent checks to the estate of Kevin Bemel. Okay. As opposed to Kevin Bemel, right? So um excuse me. Um but though that's you know fairly easily taken care of. you just notice the tenants. Um, this is to notify you that the owner of the property has has died and in the future rent payments should be made in the name of the estate of you know the owner's name. Now again um you do until an administrator is
42:43 appointed there is no one has the authority to to do such things. Okay. So, if you're a property manager, pardon me, if you're a property manager, it you only would have authority to do that if it was delegated delegated to you by the personal representative. Okay? But but that is what you do. Now if the property is owned by an entity that's now that was owned by the
43:19 deedent. So let's say the property was owned by um ABC LLC and ABC LLC was a single member LLC and the deedent was the single member. Okay. So now the estate becomes the single member of that LLC. But from the tenants standpoint, there's been no change of ownership because ABC LLC is still the is still the owner of the property and they'll continue to make their rent payments to ABC LLC presumably. Okay.
43:54 Now, um if there are family members or or other occupants, and this is kind of what I was uh alluding to a minute ago. So we, you know, we can't assume they have any particular rights. All of that has to be figured out. There may need to be some petitions made to the court by the administrator. Uh various things. Uh so all of that needs to be worked out. By the way, um I have a I have a case or not a case, I have a an estate where the there is an occupant of the
44:31 owner's uh personal residence. his longtime uh girlfriend. Uh and he he had told her, I guess uh prior to dying that if he were to pass away, she could live in the house for the rest of her life. Um there's no documentation for that. Uh and he died um in test state, no will, no trust, no nothing. Okay. Um, and so it it it it was, you know, it's it's kind of at my discretion as to what to do about that. Now, the decision I make
45:06 has to be for it have it has to be for the benefit of the estate and eventually the the heir to the estate. Okay? But um uh one doesn't necessarily have to be uh solely focused on finances. However, um if if uh you know an administrator is going to do something that doesn't appear to be for the financial benefit of the estate, that's that is probably something that should that should be petitioned to the court to make sure
45:42 that down the road the court doesn't come back and say, "Well, why did you do that? The estate lost money and blah blah blah blah blah." Okay? And so rather than uh just you know so just because something doesn't just because an administrator has the authority to make a decision without the court's concurrence doesn't mean that the administrator has to make that decision. The administrator always has the option to apply to the court for confirmation of a decision. Okay. And in in some
46:17 cases that may be the prudent thing to do. So, if you are managing a property in probate and and there's an issue like that, that is, you know, something to talk over with the administrator and and you know, for you, it could be for your benefit as well as the administrator's benefit to uh to see to it that the court uh confirms or approves of a particular decision, especially if it deals with family members, potential errors, etc. if there's a if there's a a likelihood of a
46:54 dispute arising, um that that's something that uh might very well be a very good idea. Okay. And then finally, I've been talking mostly about kind of ongoing management, but of course, managing property through in probate could also mean selling uh a a property. And and in that case, if the property is owned directly by the estate. So then you would be hired by the estate to represented in the sale of a property. There would be a listing agreement. Okay. Now, if the property is owned by an entity like an
47:29 LLC, it's the LLC that would hire you. Okay? Um, but nonetheless, probably the administrator is the one who has the authority to act on behalf of the LLC. Not necessarily, but probably. Again, all of that, those are legal issues that need to be clarified to make sure that whoever is signing the listing agreement has the authority to do so. Okay. So, um there are a number of issues that make selling a property in probate different from uh selling a property
48:04 just normally. And I'm not going to go into the details of that. Uh I am what I am going to do is suggest that you check out um my my very longstanding and close friend Bill Gross's uh show uh Probate Weekly. Uh, Bill is one of the, if not the most knowledgeable probate real estate agent in California and he he goes into a lot of depth on the special issues that arise when selling a property from probate. Suffice it to say that unfortunately
48:41 um one of the difficulties that arises is agents who don't have the knowledge and experience to deal in probate will take a listing and then you know botch the sale and it it causes uh it it causes problems. So uh it is a specialty. It's one that requires a a great deal of knowledge. And and by the way, if you're a real estate agent and want to learn how to do this, there is no one better than than my friend Bill Gross uh at at helping you learn that. And that is one of the things he he he does with his show
49:16 Probate Weekly is he helps other real estate agents learn how to handle property sales from probate. So, I'll put a link to Bill's show uh in the in the notes to this episode when it posts, and I encourage you to to check that out. So, suffice it to say, uh, managing property in uh managing real estate in probate is significantly more complex. There's a lot more legal issues to be dealt with. And if you don't have experience in
49:52 doing this, uh you know, but you want to get into it, uh I I would recommend that you search out some sources, uh for how for you would, you know, you would search out sources to learn about the probate process, learn about real estate going through probate. Um, make sure that you have a a lawyer who knows the process well and who can advise you when you have questions. Uh, you know, get to know some professional fiduciaries like me who routinely handle these kind of
50:27 matters and and uh may be interested in in helping you learn. Okay. Uh the one thing I would urge you not to do is to just take one on and and kind of go on a bender and I'll figure it out as I go. Uh there's a lot of pitfalls into which you can fall uh and and you you can cause a lot of difficulty for yourself, not to mention uh the estate itself. So if you have any questions, comments, good or bad, please do post them in in my social media. All the links will be
51:04 in the show notes. I welcome them. Uh and and as well, my email address will be there. So if you've got something of a private nature, you can always email me. I I work to remember the to give the caveat. I I only will respond to questions that are within my area of expertise. So, if it's a legal question or an accounting question, uh I am not neither a lawyer nor an accounting an accountant. So, I'm not going to give you legal and accounting advice, but I will be happy to refer you to someone who who can if if you would like. Okay. So, tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time
51:41 is my show, Business Lessons from the Military. I'm going to be talking about the monitor, the USS Monitor, the first ironclad warship. Um, basically ever purpose-built uh ironclad warship to to go into battle. And we're going to be talking about uh the lessons of innovation that we can learn from that. And then on Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show, People Making Money. And my guest is uh my friend Tom Karens's and Tom is going to talk about
52:21 um a how to avoid getting scammed. So this is a a presentation that that Tom gives periodically and we were talking about it a few months ago and and uh he agreed to come on the show. Um there are so many financial scams out there. Um, I I I think you will uh be, you know, you'll be very glad to have time and information. And then on Thursday is my every other week show, Jiggers's Place. We're going to sit back and have a cocktail. We're going to have the Federalist cocktail and we're going to
52:57 be talking about the Federalist Papers. So there's a lot of talk going on uh the last few months what's constitutional what's not constitutional and one of the best places to go to figure that out is the federalist papers which were written at the time that the US constitution was going through the ratification process and it explained what the constitution was all about. So we're going to do have a a topic like that is best over a cocktail. Um, if you're interested in getting the cocktail recipes in advance of the show, please sign up for my email
53:34 uh my email on my email list and then you will get an email in the morning prior to the show and you can um mix the cocktail with me uh at the be at the beginning of each episode of Jiggers's Place every other week, Thursday at 5:00 p. p.m. Pacific time. So, thank you so much for joining me, especially those of you who are on the show live with me. Always a pleasure to see you, Lammond. Good to see you, my friend. And, uh, hope you have a wonderful rest of the day. And signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell.