0:01 hello and welcome to trust and Estates weekly I'm your host Kevin bemel and uh we're here every Monday at uh 10:00 am Pacific time that's 1 pm eastern time and I I I did have a guest scheduled for today and unfortunately we've been having technical difficulties for the last 15 20 minutes um and and so um he he we haven't been able to get a stable connection so um we'll reschedule Paul uh for another day um but but in the meantime I thought I would uh jump on
0:37 here and um I I have a I had a topic kind of in the back of my mind um to to talk to you about um based on uh a meeting I had with uh with with with a client um yesterday so um um I've I've been working on this one particular matter for a few months now and um I'm I'm fortunate to be working with some really terrific people um two of them I've known for literally decades um and another is is a a probate
1:13 attorney um here in the Los Angeles area who is just just absolutely top-notch um a fellow by the name of Leo Dubach and one of the things that I was talking to one of my colleagues yesterday after the meeting with the client and one of the things that he observed is um we've we've gotten a tremendous amount done in the uh four months or so that we've been working on this um and he he attributes it largely to the fact that we're all very focused on serving the client um as
1:50 opposed to staking out um our you know piece of territory and and you know showing that um we're the you know the the the strongest dog in the pack he didn't exactly use those words but I don't use the kind of language he used so um and I I thought that was an interesting observation um and and as as as you probably know on on uh uh Tuesdays I do a show called business lessons from the military um and and you know most
2:25 recently um my professional uh time was spent in in the Navy and the the military in general all the branches of the military really put a very very high premium on teamwork and um there I mean obviously there's a good reason for that um War fighting is is is not a uh um um what do they call it a a solo sport um it it you know whether you're fighting a ship whether you're fighting
3:00 um in a platoon or a company whatever that is um in some sort of expeditionary Force um there are a lot of people involved a lot of logistics involved and it all has to coordinate well in order to meet your objective and one would imagine that this translates naturally in the civilian world but um in in my colleagues experience it it does not um he he he's he was telling me that that the the sort of um camaraderie and and and smooth working of of all the
3:37 different people is is rather an anomaly um in his experience and that's that's really a shame so one of the one one of the um I guess sort of lessons that that that that I've learned through this and and I will say by the way that in general throughout my career when I was in the real estate business prior to the Navy in the Navy and now in this uh you know as you've heard me joke before Kevin 3.0 phase of My Life um I've always put a a big premium on teamwork on the um you know working together of
4:15 of various people in in order to make things go as smoothly as possible serve clients as well as possible and that may seem to be obvious um but but evidently not and so um to one of the things to which I attribute this in in this current situation is um we've really avoided um letting our egos get overly involved in what we're doing so we all basically know our role um but
4:52 we also respect the um knowledge and experience of the other people involved and and in so doing we can listen to their ideas their criticisms um and and take them on board and figure out the best path forward so um whether you're working on your own estate plan or whether you're someone who helps people um planning and administrating their Estates I I I would encourage you to think about how do you build teamwork among the various
5:30 Members First of all who is the captain of the team so when we started out this process excuse me here for just a moment um this is the problem with having postnasal drip um when we first started out on this project I I was not the team captain I I was not the first guy in um it was actually um one of the lawyers Who's involved and he brought he he's a business lawyer lawyer he brought in a um a um uh probate an estate planning
6:07 attorney um and then he brought me in oh we got we have we have Paul here let's see if we can let's see if we can get him in here now so hi Paul hi I'm so sorry about the internet there yeah well well good so um I actually we're already we're already live here so this this will work out fine um so thanks for um thanks for coming on the show today um and uh um I I first of all um I I know as a lawyer you often get caught up in court and uh
6:43 um that's always a challenge because you can't say to the judge you know pardon me but I have to go right so um often time your your often your time is not your own but um so let let me take a just a moment here um and and introduce you the um this is my guest um who who has has overcome the technical difficulties I was mentioning a couple of minutes ago um this is Paul um um delor yes yeah and um Paul is is a um uh trust and EST estate attorney um and um
7:20 you practice in Arizona am I remembering correctly yeah that's right okay um and your office is in uh Scottsdale as I believe um which is a lovely part of uh of Arizon I as a kid I lived in in Phoenix um and uh a a few years ago um coming back uh from uh the southeast um I stayed at the Valley Ho Hotel in in Scott State it's terrific you probably know you probably I know where it is yeah yeah
7:56 historical yeah so um so so um before we get into your subject which is debunking um the five myths of probate um share with us just a little bit about your background how did you um how did you you know decide to get involved in be how did you decide become a lawyer how did you decide to get involved you know in this area of of the law well okay uh so I have a master's degree in music performance uh saxop um bassoon um actually played the bag
8:33 pipes um and uh I found it difficult to make a good living in that so so I um in my early 20s I I searched elsewhere and I I had a number of friends who were lawyers and uh like you know they they all seemed really interesting and had interesting stories and so I thought that that must be a great life lifestyle um they should have warned me about the long hours and how it's yes you can have interesting stories but it's actually
9:10 not an easy way to make money but but anyway no I so so I ended up going to law school and um I I thought I was actually going to go into healthc care uh but but but I I for whatever reason I I think uh we're we humans are drawn in certain directions and so I was I was just drawn to it I I know I don't I have maybe different theories about how I got into this area but um I may maybe it's a way um maybe it's a work a way to work
9:47 through some of my own uh background and my own issues or something like that because I like you know there there's no um there's no nicey nicy way to practice Ice uh probate law or at least the stuff that I do because it's uh you're dealing with multiple family members and greed jealousy and resentment uh usually from childhood that rears his ugly head after a loved one has passed away and so it's it's like five-dimensional chess you know we're dealing with the law we're we're dealing with multiple areas of the
10:22 law um Tor law probate law um and then civil rules and probate rules and then add to that the the psychology of multiple people and you know what what's what's going on and then trying to guess what the intent of a deceased person is so it's it's challenging yeah and and um so how long have you been um U practicing uh uh you know in in the probate in an estate Arena yeah
10:57 uh well so uh I'll say since 2004 uh I've re really been doing only trust in Estates issues and I I was focusing more on the planning part for a while and then I I I just there was something that was nagging at me that I I thought that I needed to get into uh actual litigation because uh the doing the plan work it's all Theory and you know like you know we can put all
11:33 these trusts together and uh plan to have co- personal Representatives or co-trustees and and oh you know think oh well that that should work you know what could go wrong with that and so it's taken me getting uh beaten up over the years in in different cases to I I guess see how things actually work so and yeah so so I I mean even from a from a spiritual standpoint I mean I think it's I I think
12:08 uh there's a difference between knowing the the theory of something and then like really like understanding something on on an inner basis to be able to help people more so yeah yeah so so um H how did you so take take a step back for a moment um when I saw your topic you know the five myths of uh of probate debunk it reminded me of um when I first got out of the Navy I was working with milit
12:44 service members and such who were transitioning to civilian life helping them find jobs primarily and out of that experience I wrote a book called The Eight deadly sins of job hunting for veterans right and because I saw time and again you know the the the the military people who were not being successful transitioning they were doing the same thing right over and over again and and and essentially shooting themselves in the foot right and and and so it caught my attention this idea of the the five
13:19 you know myths of of probate debunk so I I suspect these are things that people commonly think about how probate works that are are you know not not true at all and and so I was you know very very curious that's why I'm so glad that that that you you're able to come on the show to talk about this so so how did you first of all how did you develop this idea of of you know the five probate myths where where did those come from well well it it it came from uh thinking that it would be easier to digest than
13:56 the 60 myths so so um so yeah the these are certainly five common ones and I I can I can kind of go through them if you want a little bit but but these are by no means the only five and I I think what happens is people hear something and uh you know life is complicated and and so we we humans have to simp ify things otherwise our heads would explode so we
14:33 we you know we we learn one thing that kind of creates our Paradigm and and then we uh you know we we try to make decisions based on that so for example the the first two myths that I that I wrote about one is one is that if you have a will then you have to go to probate uh and the other one is is the flip side that if you have a will then you don't have to go to probate so um so it it it and so the way it really works out is if if you have a it so it's more
15:10 complicated and uh just without going into all the um details with it the the um the punchline to all of this is unless you're well no I I'll skip the UN part uh the punchline is is talk to a lawyer it really talk to a lawyer um just to just to make sure I was going to say if you're absolutely sure that you don't need to do a probate but no I I get people who are absolutely sure all the time and um there you know they can be
15:46 wrong but um so so the thing with probate well and I'm sure you talk about this stuff on your um show probably a lot but um so there's a difference between probate assets and nonprobate assets and and probate assets are ones that are in the deceased person's name alone and where they have to actually go through the probate process um and so if you do have a will then then that's relevant for those uh but then there's a lot of nonprobate assets where uh like
16:22 retirement accounts or things in the trust um and uh and I'm Sorry by the way for being late this morning um I I had a hearing that was kind of keeping me and actually this hearing I well I I won't go into the confidential details but uh the hearing was interesting because there there is a trust but there's also appropriate asset uh and then the the trust has what's called uh a power of appointment that that gives uh gives the surviving trustee the
16:58 ability to to transfer uh to transfer assets uh uh through a will like to to say in the will who gets it um and then there's a dispute among the family about whether that was proper and whether the trust was funded so so sometimes things even if you have a trust sometimes the whole thing can get wrapped up through probate court so I'll just leave it at that I guess yeah yeah I mean I I I handled a case a few years ago where um they had you know the the married couple had set up a trust and duly
17:34 transferred all their assets into the trust except you know they left one out right and then like like you said there was a retirement account um and it should have um transferred to the surviving spouse um but the bank kept um messing up the paperwork and they kept messing up the paperwork and after a year of messing up the paperwork the other spouse died and so now we had to so we ended up having to file a probate in order to deal with you know that retirement account because the bank didn't take
18:10 care or it was wasn't a bank really it was a credit union but they didn't take care of it in a uh a timely fashion so you know trusts are a great instrument but they don't necessar As You observe they don't necessarily always work the way you know you you think they will so right right right yeah yeah so so anyway it and you know another thing that I I suspect you and your listeners would be interested in um I I have a theory and I would love to do a study sometime um
18:45 about this but what I've noticed is that uh there's almost no relationship between whether uh whether ends up in Probate litigation and whether there is a will or a trust uh so yeah almost almost no relationship uh you can have perfect documents uh where uh and even by Perfect like I can go to an extreme where uh a married couple maybe did
19:22 their estate plan 20 years ago and then they redid it 15 years ago and then they redid it 10 years ago and each each version basically says the same thing um but if there's uh if there's dissension in the family or mistrust or lack of transparency um that could easily end up in litigation and I've seen that uh and some sometimes it can be triggered oh shoot I I had a well I have a case right now where unfortunately there there's litigation and I I think
19:59 I I think one of the Sparks that triggered it is the trustee um called my client who's a beneficiary um a racial slur oh gosh and and so I I'm actually I'm actually trying to reach out and see if we can just have like a half hour meeting and kind of work through things a little bit instead of instead of spending the next two years in court and spending all the money but uh so so and then uh the other the other thing is and you know I'm not sure if maybe we're
20:35 getting a little dark here but um in terms of when there's litigation or when there's conflict in the family there's there's almost always some uh uh some addiction of some kind or some or some some kind of um childhood abuse like I I I can't think of a case where there was um uh litigation where there I can't okay I'm think I'm I'm losing Touch of my grammar here
21:12 so I I can't think of a case that involved um really bad litigation where there was uh no one like like no one was an addict everyone was fully functioning you know heal psychologically healthy you know that kind of thing so um you know that that's kind of that's kind of an interesting thing and so it's it frankly from that standpoint um estate planning really it really involves um communication in the family and and I mean so so the other thing is um like I
21:52 okay I was saying you know what ends up in litigation the other thing is if you have a um if you have a family that's um really I'm gonna say spiritual and not religious uh because the the religious families often I've noticed often end up in legation or they can be because well because there's a difference between being I I think spiritual and being religious and I'm sorry I'm getting into my own philosophy here and everything but but but I the the families that have
22:29 a good solid background I guess that's what I'm saying um H have a much easier job of just transferring things and whatever you know it you could whatever it is if it's a house or a bank account or whatever uh it means something to you know to the Next Generation and so so for that for that to actually have meaning and to stick and to to to benefit the Next Generation uh it it just requires more it requires more than some documents it so and yeah
23:04 this is actually this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart so I'm sorry I probably um hijacked the conversation because we were supposed to talk about probate Miss but yeah no no so so this is actually quite fascinating so um when you I mean I'm trying to I'm trying to formulate my thought here so you know I mean I've seen something similar all the documents in the world cannot Bridge a um a gap created by um you know
23:45 two people who have a different value system or who value different things right and and it seems to me perhaps there's something coming into play there oh you you hit the magic word there values yeah yeah absolutely absolutely um so and you know that that's tricky I I mean it's I think this is way easier for most of our most of the history of humanity having common values uh I mean shoot
24:22 majority those were set by the church or the synagogue or you know whatever people went to and so you know parents didn't have to really think about it but you know here here we're up against Tik Tok and Instagram and and uh you know uh Church synagogue attendances down and all of this so it's it's just more challenging for sure I'm dealing with it in my own family um so and i' you know i' I've just seen it so it is definitely tricky but but but I'll say that there there are some shortcuts um and maybe we
24:57 should get on another because I know that the title of this podcast is a probate Miss but you're gonna have one title on the podcast and then we'll be talking about well it's okay I I can change it when when it posts on YouTube I can change the title so okay all right um but um well certain certainly what what I would say is to to anyone who you know really cares about about the um what kind of a legacy they want to leave for their kids um for one
25:35 make sure that they have make sure they uh have family stories like stories about the predecessors um and that's really important much more important than a a box of photographs you know with no context um so if so like just some some little shortcuts to to uh kind of help pass on your legacy in a more meaningful way um spend spend a little time and
26:10 instead of using all the photographs from the box like pick 20 of them and put them into a some kind of a scrapbook or you don't have to get all artsy or whatever but and then you know right like you know this is this is my here so I'll tell from my own personal past okay so this is my grandpa who came over from Germany in the in 1928 and he didn't speak English and he you know he learned he learned The Language by uh reading the U the Sunday newspaper uh the cartoons and you know
26:45 that kind of thing and this is what he did you know that just so that so there's some kind of a history there um and I I've seen that the families that have that those are really cherished and um and what else um so so certainly yeah certainly stories um and then what the like you know if you're dealing with significant wealth um what it means like you know what like what was involved in in getting it and what
27:22 your hope as the parent what your hopes for the future are because that that provides uh you know I guess a a path I guess for the future and it just statistically there's been studies about this that that makes it much more likely that the next generation is going to appreciate that and and treat it more with respect um as opposed to um uh squander you know squandering it or you know making bad decisions that kind of a thing so um so anyway um so should we
27:57 get back on track with the probate myth and then we can get on another call if you want to sure so so you covered you covered two of the myths yeah and yeah let's see here um well oh shoot uh I I had a case recently where uh there was there was a will that uh set forth a whole like it went into a a whole lot of detail that this account goes to this person and this account goes to this person and this life
28:33 insurance should be used for uh like a certain amount of it should be set set aside and used to take care of my dog and uh you know and and so on and so on well most of those accounts were Jo were joint or had pay on death beneficiaries and the life insurance had a beneficiary so the whole will and it was it I I unfortunately it was it was heartbreaking for the family and confusing for the family and yes there was years of litigation over this because it it actually turned out
29:09 that uh but yeah it turned out that that other people ended up getting everything and not the family members and yeah so and the per the person who ended up getting the dog didn't get any money to care for the dog it ended up going to someone else and all of this stuff so um yeah um so uh so that myth is that uh just because something's named in the will or named in the trust that that's exactly who gets who gets it because it um like a joint tendency if or if it's
29:46 if there's a beneficiary designation that that can uh uh what's the word um contradict that yeah yeah or reverse it yeah oh let's see oh there's the instant Authority fallacy U and that's the idea that if I'm named in the will then I can start uh listing the house for sale and and distributing things and doing everything uh and and that's not true um you have to to to be uh and I think in California
30:21 there you talk about administrator uh right I think it's administrator or executor um here in Arizona we talk about personal representative but so the person involved uh or the person in charge um has to actually be officially appointed by the court system so yeah right right same here and and it's not necessarily a quick process right yeah it's a little longer in California um and then well the other thing is that uh so the idea the myth is that if you have a living trust that uh that you don't
30:57 need a pro and you know everything's going to go smoothly well um that may or may not be true um and we kind of talked about this before that that uh if you have well if you have a trust uh maybe it wasn't funded or there might be interpretation issues in it um it so uh yeah it's really it's actually really important to to get an attorney to help it's really important so um I'll give you a quote from uh the probate commissioner uh from from the hearing
31:33 that I was on that caused me to be late for this call she said she said quote probate is complicated and she was actually advising other heirs uh that that were you know contesting something that contesting a petition that we had filed and encouraging them to get an attorney because um well because there's all kinds of different things involved and you you have to just uh you have to interpret the trust and and it says that there might be sub trust and all kinds of other things so anyway just because you have a trust doesn't mean that everything's GNA be smooth sailing necessarily right right
32:09 there we got back on track good for us yeah you know interest I'm I'm dealing with a matter right now where um the uh decedent engaged in estate planning for several years died intestate oh really oh it was he'd been working with the the estate planning attorney I I think for two or three years um the documents were done you know all never signed them he never signed them never funded the trust you know and um and and worse never made provision for estate taxes I think I
32:44 think people think that oh it's you know because the lifetime exemption is so high I don't have to worry about estate taxes but um this this estate is just being walloped by estate taxes because no provision was made you know there was no you know life insurance or anything to to handle that and um look the the air you know he's won the lottery on a certain level um and and I I think you know it's it's still not quite you know reconciled to what's happened to him right um but um you know
33:23 from the standpoint of you know those of us who are helping him with this and and and who do this you know professionally we look at this it's such a waste you know we're talking about a um nine um we're talking about an eight figure you know state tax uh you know bird so it's just really so something like that happened to me actually um I had a well my father passed away uh and long story short uh I didn't really have a Rel reltionship with him and so I
33:59 I did not have the the you know the meaning background uh or the shared values background that we were talking about before and so for me it was just some money and well and there were there were a couple of things that at play for me one was that um I'd only just met him and I actually really wanted to have a relationship with him and then he uh he passed away and so for me the money was was kind of like a consolation prize that that I I didn't like it wasn't really what I wanted um that plus the
34:36 estate taxes kind of got me into a a kind of a financial nihilism I guess like I I like I I didn't see the purpose of it like and I ended up taking more risks than I should have because like you know I saw these big numbers coming and going and you know huge amount in my tdir trade account and then half of it went to the federal government and uh and that just kind of got me in a in a well plus no background of what the meaning to it should have been and and
35:12 not knowing who to talk to and then unfortunately there is a whole industry of people who somehow find people like me or find people like you know the person you're talking about and have great ideas for Investments for them so I I I I got I got into that Circle uh and yeah so so anyway um well I you know I hope the person you're talking about can just find some meaning with it and find some peace um you know prior to making bad decisions yeah I mean so fortunately um
35:49 I think he's a very grounded person just in general and um we've we've sort of built a team for him um that to to help him understand what what does all this mean um what does it mean to be a good Steward of oh that's wonderful what he's you know what what he's um acquiring or inheriting you know and and and so and this is so you know this is not really a myth I think this this is sort of the this is the the Crux of it is I I we we look at probates as as so
36:27 much of a financial um matter I guess is the best word I can come up with but one of the things that I've stressed in in many of the shows that I've done is it's it's as much a relationship um issue as it is a financial issue so whether you're choosing a trustee or an executive or a personal representative or you're you're figuring out your beneficiaries or all this is all about the relationships among all these people and in in order
37:02 for for you know an estate plan to work relatively along the lines of what's intended the relationships have to be relatively straightened out and and I I what I'm hearing from you is is is when they're not that's when no one like you said no amount of paperwork will will overcome these relationships not being straight stened out and and and yet that's that's the real hard part we can draw up all kinds of fancy documents but can we can we really straighten out you know problems
37:37 that you know may have festered for you know years if not decades yeah for sure um no I I I totally agree I I had a wonderful experience with a a local family here in Arizona um uh they're more uh and and and I I I say that because I think it's I think it's partly relevant um uh they you know they they had a strong um they had shared values to go back to
38:13 the word you were using before and uh I was involved in helping facilitate some family meetings that helped Bridge some gaps that they were experiencing and there there was a rift in the family and it it was a one it was a wonderful thing um ju just uh you know they they're moving forward uh in a well they're they're they're moving forward together as a family and uh so like like for for example um I was I was at the family meeting where
38:50 they had the grandchildren all together for the first time in maybe five years or something like that and it it was really good and so doing something like that that that's the kind of kind of foundation that's that's going to lead more likely to success you know in terms of the future just you know probate or no probate right right right absolutely and and and as we we we had we had a long meeting with this fellow that I mentioned a few minutes ago um we had a long meeting with him yesterday and you know in the end what I continually
39:26 stressed was this is about understanding what kind of life you want for you and your family what your goals are and then how can this inheritance help you achieve that that's fundamental it's not about the numbers per se right because the numbers can be smaller smaller they can be larger whatever but it's about it's it's it's about one's life right and and I I think sometimes we lose sight of that um you know well and if I could interject um
40:02 the the real sensitive area is the grandchildren so so here's what I mean by that okay so the just let this play out a little bit okay well okay so so there was a there was a parent I guess that accumulated some money and now it's passing it to the child okay um what what I see play out too often is you know now now this generation is going to have a nice life and they're going to go on you know nice vacations and go to private schools and wear nice clothes and you know that that kind of thing have that
40:38 kind of expectation um and what can easily happen is uh just letting off the gas pedal in terms of uh work ethic and and then not teaching the Next Generation how to have the the fire in the belly and that's oof that is I I honestly don't have the answer to that I wish I did I wish I could pass it on but how that's going to be the challenge how how do you how do you convey that to the Next Generation to have the fire in the belly because here's what happens and i'
41:13 I've seen this on this is the this is the saddest thing that I see as a probate lawyer um it the saddest thing is not that people Su Sue each other in court or whatever the saddest thing for me is at some point that there's a generation that's brought up with nice vacations and nice cars and all that kind of stuff and they they don't have a work ethic and the money Runs Out o that is that's really tough now now I mean now you know at some point maybe it's the
41:48 grandchildren or something you've you've set them up for a really hard life so yep that that's the difficult thing and I I don't know you do the best you can with passing on stories and what it meant and you know try like don't don't give the kids everything they want um you know they have to work for it um you know if if they don't have a job at at a certain age you kick them out and they have to figure it out even if even if they're sleeping on someone's sofa or something like you have to you have to be the hard parent um
42:24 so anyway yeah yeah you know people mistake being kind with being nice and kindness isn't always nice sometimes the kindest thing is to be a little bit on is to be tough so that you know people learn what it really means to take a hold of their life and uh yeah I mean I've seen the same thing among um you know friends where there's generational wealth and and um you know sometimes one one sibling will be a hard worker and the other two they just live you know dissipating
43:00 lives and you kind of Wonder well how come this one figured it out and these two didn't you know right right right it's right it's a mystery um but somehow you know that's that's that's what happen so right well well gosh you know we we we've uh we we've had a really great discussion here um I I I would I would continue for a while longer but um I I I we do have to uh to end things here but um Paul thank thank you so much for your perseverance and working out the the technical problems thank you for being gracious and and letting me come
43:36 come on late I I'd love to meet you sometime you you sound like a wonderful guy well thank you you you was you as well so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna sort of wrap up the show here for a minute but if you'll kind of hang tight we we can talk for a minute or so offline um so folks that that's that is the show for today so so you you got kind of a a double show because you you did get the five um um myths of probate debunk but you also got a lot of other very you know deep but important ideas about what probate is about and and what the the transfer of generational wealth
44:11 is about so you know I don't I don't usually do this but I would encourage you to watch this episode a second time and listen to some of the thoughts that that Paul has shared and how those you reflect on how those might impact how you are looking at your own estate plan and how you are working with with your clients um because I I I will tell you straight out um I'm working with one particular client something and I was debating last night trying to fall asleep whether I should address something to the to this particular client and and and having reflected on
44:46 it as as I've listened to Paul I I I I think I'm going to and hopefully the the client won't say Hey you know you're you're you're out of line so sometimes I think we have to be willing to really um as we say in yish talk talkless get really down to the nitty-gritty of of of these issues to really serve our clients well so thank you so much for joining us today um on um so we're there's no show tomorrow um but on Wednesday at 10: am my guest is Benjamin Inman um interestingly enough Benjamin is also a
45:23 a um a trust and estate lawyer um but benjam is coming on to talk about a specialty that he has in Firearms law um so um we're not going to be talking from a political standpoint this isn't about you know gun control and all that kind of stuff this is about um H how do we deal with this whole realm um as as you probably know over the last few years um firearm ownership has exploded and yet the laws differ from state to state um just like with probate laws so I invite you to um join us on Wednesday 10: a.m.
45:59 Pacific time for people making money um I said my guest is Benjamin Inman and so Paul want to thank you again for joining us um and sharing your your thoughts and uh signing off as I always do Marie you are my bell all the best folks