0:02 Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want? [Music] Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemel, and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. specific time to talk about estate planning and pro trust and probate administration. Mostly from the standpoint of uh professionals like myself who help
0:37 people with these matters, but also for those of you who are doing your going through your own estate planning process or you may be administrating a trust or estate. and and this will give you more knowledge, hopefully answer some questions you have or at least help you uh speak more intelligently to the the people uh who are advising you. So today's show uh it it may be a little bit different than uh past shows and and
1:12 that's because uh I I've I've noticed a trend um among institutions uh financial institutions and and how they they really fail heirs and and and those who were administrating trusts and estates on their behalf. And so, uh, I' I've talked about problems with the court system, uh, especially here in California, how overburdened it is and and how that adds a lot of cost, how the judges are generally speaking uh,
1:50 inexperienced and so therefore in in some cases at least are reluctant to make decisions. And so then cases get dragged out which costs more money etc. Today I'm going to be focusing on banks and uh brokerage institutions and the problems that they create uh for uh administrators, personal representatives of trusts and and probates. And I'm I'm going to talk about why I
2:25 think these this is the case. Uh I I I I did some research to see if there were any statistics on any of this. I couldn't find any. So, you know, this is just based on my experience um having administrated trusts and estates now for quite a number of years um in in multiple states and uh you know I I can imagine that these institutions would take issue with some
3:00 of the things that I'm going to say. Uh, and my response to them is, well, listen, the proof is in the pudding. So, uh, if you really want to be customer serviceoriented, why are you doing the kinds of things that I'm going to be talking about in today's show? Uh, and I'm pointing these out so that you as professionals, as individuals, lay people if you will, who are involved in probate and trust administration andor who are estate planning and figuring out uh where you
3:37 want to do your accounts, your wealth, you'll you'll have a sense of uh at least some of the institutions with which I've had problems and take whatever steps you can to potentially mitigate if not avoid those problems. So, uh the most recent institution um with with which I've had a um u some problems is a federal credit union here in Southern California called Westcom. So,
4:14 um, you know, let let's, you know, full disclosure, Westcom is closely associated with what I jokingly call as the little trade school over in Westwood, of course, the uh University of California at Los Angeles as a USC Trojan. Of course, that's the big cross town rival. Uh, but I don't I don't uh attribute to UCLA any of the things that Westcom has has done. I I I think maybe, you know, UCLA ought to take another look maybe at their affiliation perhaps.
4:49 Uh but in in the branch I was in, it has pictures of Paulie Pavilion and all these places on UCLA and and yet I'm sitting there, you know, frustrated as as all get out. So the the situation was uh one of the estates that I'm administrating the deedent had an account at Westcom and as the administrator I needed to take control of that account. Um, and so I called Westcom, their sort of corporate 800 number, which is a typical
5:26 procedure. Most I well, I don't know about most, but many institutions have separate departments for handling uh estate matters. In other words, a situation where one of their account holders has has died. This is not the case for Westcom. Uh, and what the what the lady did. Uh, and and and by the way, my my problem I I should have made one more prefaratory remark and that is in general my problem with these institutions is not the people with whom I deal who generally speaking are just
6:01 trying to be helpful. It's with the institutions and the policies that they set um that make it difficult for their people uh to to help out in a customer in this case the representative of an estate. So the lady with whom I spoke at the 800 number basically what she did is she set up an appointment for me at a branch uh and and I had to go to the branch and bring certain documents. Now it would have been helpful if she had mentioned
6:36 that Westcom unlike other financial institutions requires an original copy of a death certificate. Okay. So this varies by institutions. Some institutions will accept a copy. Some institutions require an original. You know what I would say is before you go to any institution or send them a doc? Well, if you're sending them a document, you know, yeah, even if you're sending them a document, check and you know, ask
7:12 them, do you need an original? Okay. And by the way, if they say I need an original, the next question should be, are you going to send it back to me, right? Because it costs money for the estate to get an original death certificate, at least here in Los Angeles County. And it also takes a lot of time. And if you happen to only have one original for whatever reason, if the institution is intent on keeping it, now you've got a problem because if the next time you need an the next time you need an original, you won't have one. So, you know, you want to jump right on ordering
7:47 more originals. And I will say that if you are ordering death certificates at the outset, order multiple copies. Usually, there's only one shipping fee. And so, it's worth it to just spend whatever the extra money is to get I would recommend at least three to five. I know in one case I did a case in in Alabama, they ordered 10 um and and you know in the end I didn't use all 10, but I was glad because there were a couple of situations where the institutions
8:22 wanted to keep the death certificates and so I never had to be concerned that I was going to run out. So no matter which institution uh you're talking to u ask them if they need an original death certificate. In the case of Westcom, it turns out they did. So, I show up with a copy of my letters of administration and a copy of the death certificate. I hadn't gotten the originals yet. And the woman takes them and she goes and and I I see her talking on the phone and she
8:57 takes copies of everything. And after about 30 or 40 minutes, she comes to me and she says, "Do you have an original of the death death certificate?" And I said, 'Well, not yet. I'm waiting for it. She said, 'Well, they require me to see an original of the death certificate before I can process this request. So, that was the end of that meeting. I had to go. I had to leave. I had to schedule another meeting. Okay. And so, then I returned with the original. Now, fortunately, the same woman was there. She remembered the matter and and and but nonetheless
9:34 it took hold your seat two and a half hours for them to process the paperwork and you know perhaps the amount in the account isn't particularly relevant but I will say there was only slightly more than $2,000 in this account. So you know a lot of time and effort to take control of a couple of thousand dollars. Now that is part of the administration process. Sometimes it takes a lot of time to uh you know to
10:09 handle things and it it hardly seems worth it. Uh but certainly Westcom uh didn't you know didn't do anything to make it more efficient in in total not even including drive time it took me over three hours and then it took me another 20 minutes on the phone with corporate because I wanted bank statements so I could see uh the the uh understanding among at least a couple of the heirs was there was a lot of money in this account and and in the event only about $2,000.
10:45 Where did all that money go? So, I I needed to see bank statements for basically a year and a half. Uh at the branch, I could only get about four or five months worth of bank statements or account statements, I should say. It's a credit union, not a bank. And so while the the the uh person at the at the you know at the office there was kind enough not to charge me for those four or five months uh of of account statements because I it had taken so long to get the matter resolved. When I called corporate to get
11:22 the other year's worth or or was actually a little bit more than a year's worth. uh they insisted on charging me despite the fact that this was my fourth time contacting Westcom and to boot they wouldn't accept a credit card for payment. So I had and they wouldn't accept a check either by the way. So I had to go get a money order and send them a written request by conventional mail. Right? So, you know, this is going to take probably when all is said and done, a month for me to get
11:59 those account statements. So, this is really a failure on the part of Westcom. There's no reason why they can't take a credit card. They're a financial institution, right? uh you know this is just it's it's kind of a punishment if you will I think for my having closed the account and not left the funds at Westcom you know in the name of the estate. So and and this is one of the underlying uh issues I
12:34 think that causes institutions to not be customer uh serviceoriented when it comes to dealing with a deedence account. Again, I couldn't find statistics on this, but I would be willing to to bet that a very high percentage of of the times when someone dies, the administrator for that person's estate does not leave the money in the institution. And so the institution has an incentive to delay
13:13 dispersing the funds and to be something less than completely cooperative. uh because the the sort of the the the secret right of of the banking business and when I say banking business I mean banks, credit unions, savings institutions is they make a lot of the of their money off of the funds that are on deposit. So anytime they're losing funds on deposits, that's reducing their income. Okay? even when they're paying interest
13:49 on an account, the amount of of return they get on that account on that money that's in that account is higher than the interest paid out. That's how they make their money. It's it's not the fees that we typically pay like a $10 or $15 or even a $50 fee to wire funds. I mean, yes, that's that's money to the institution, but that's not where they make most of their money. They make most of their money off of the money on deposit. And so there's no incentive for the institutions when they know they're
14:24 going to be losing those funds to act with any sort of elacrity. And and I I I will tell you the only time I in the last year and a half or almost two years now that I've had an institution act quickly to in essence hand over funds was with First Republic Bank. And the the fellow told the the the the the man I was dealing with at First Republic told me flat out that at the end of this
14:59 month, we're being taken over by JP Morgan Chase. And once that happens, it will be a nightmare because there'll be a whole transition period of them figuring out what how they're going to handle all of this. and he said, "So, I I I I want to do everything I can to get this money to you before JP Morgan Chase takes that ability out of my hands." And I will will a very unusually high level of customer service. Okay? Especially from an
15:35 institution that was going to cease to exist. And he told me he told me flat out once JP Morgan took over uh the this was this happened to be a brokerage account. He said once they take over I'm out of a job, right? So you would you might say, well gosh, he doesn't have any incentive to be helpful, he's losing his job, right? But but it shows you that the the you know sometimes the individual can make a big big difference, right? So like with the Westcom example, there are lots of incentives for
16:11 financial institutions to not help transfer these funds quickly to put into place uh procedures that delay the process. Now you know getting on to the other side of the table for a moment in an effort to be just about this. So the financial inst like Westcom would say well we require an original death certificate to make sure that that the person ha indeed has died right and we're and and that this is not someone trying to defraud
16:48 uh the account holder. Well, okay, maybe. The problem is is death certificates are a matter of public record and pretty much anyone can order anybody's death certificate. Now, in practice, you're supposed to be a relative, but look, if someone's going to defraud a financial institution, are they going to hesitate to lie about being a relative to get a hold of a death certificate? So therein lies the problem with that particular argument. So
17:23 outside of you know checking the public records themselves which they can do without an original death certificate. If I had pres presented Westcom with a when I had I should say when I presented Westcom with a copy of the death certificate, the the lady at the branch who she may not have been trained to do this, but someone at the corporate headquarters she called could have gone online and verified that in fact this particular deedent was in fact deceased. And by the
17:58 way, I handed them a copy of my letters of administration. How do they know those are genuine? Right? So again, they can go on the court's website and verify that in fact the copy I gave them is wassued by the court. Right? So that would be the only way to absolutely ensure that there and that there was there wasn't a fraud going on. And even in that case, you know, it would have to be a pretty sophisticated fraud. But even verifying it in the court system and in the county
18:34 recorder's office, you know, there probably are still ways to commit a fraud even with that kind of checking. But that would be that would be the most thorough way to verify. These days, requiring original documents does doesn't mean a whole lot. It it it just doesn't. not if they're not if their source isn't verified. So I I I was dealing with uh another credit union called Logix and in this case I need to I need to take control of a mortgage. Now, it
19:11 turns out uh unbeknownst to me, there w there is also at least one other account there and Logix requires an original death certificate and what's called a certified copy of letters of administration. Now, that that's fine, but again, that wouldn't really prevent a fraud. So I think Logix is doing this so that if there were a problem and they get sued they can say well we required an
19:47 original death certificate and required certified letters and my response to that would be so what? So you required essentially original documents. Original documents can be made up. I mean with the the quality of colored printers and and all these things you know big deal. So again um while I I think the rationale for Logic's Federal Credit Union doing that uh it is to guard against fraud and probably more specifically to guard against a lawsuit
20:24 against logics. The reality is it doesn't really do that. And and what it but what it does do is because they require original documents, I would either have to and and they don't have that many offices, I would have to drive for at least an hour just to go to an office or mail it in, which was which is what I chose to do. So, this is another way for them to hold on to funds longer. uh and and you know essentially profit off the money that you know is going to
21:02 be distributed to the heirs uh once the once the probate is wrapped up. So that's a couple of examples in terms of credit unions. Let's take a break and we'll talk about some others. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal
21:38 compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step. Magnum Properties, Inc. turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. So this is Trust and Estates Weekly and I'm your host Kevin Bemmel. I'm talking about how institutions specifically financial institutions fail heirs. I before the break I was talking
22:13 about how uh credit unions handle things in a way that is not really shall we say air friendly customer serviceoriented. So next I want to talk about brokerage companies uh in particular I want to talk about uh Fidelity Investments. Now thi this this is an interesting case. I I mentioned a little while ago I dealt with a case uh with an estate where accounts were held by uh
22:49 first republic bank. These one was a brokerage account and the other was or there were two IAS I believe. So, interestingly enough, uh everything that had to be processed uh in order for me to take cognizance over those accounts uh and and in in the case of the two IAS, they had uh uh beneficiary on death designations. And so, it was it was it wasn't me really taking cognizance per se. It was me seeing to it that the beneficiary
23:25 uh who was designated uh was able to get uh control of of the accounts. So uh they did everything online, everything through Esign. It was highly automated and as easy as it could possibly be for the people involved. One of whom was, you know, an older woman, uh, not in particularly good health. And so, you know, it would have been difficult for her to leave her
24:01 home. And and so while we did have to do uh one phone call just to you know verify her identity. Okay listen listen I I I I don't consider that burdensome. Everything else was done through e-ign online. Uh a few emails uh the the the fellow who took care of the matter was on top of things. uh the only representative I've had from any financial institution who proactively reached out to me on a
24:37 regular basis to make sure that the process was proceeding um according to my expectations and and that you know things were getting the things that needed to get done were actually happening. So, I I wish I could remember this fellow's name because I' I' I'd like to give him a, you know, kind of an at a boy. Unfortunately, I don't remember his name. This happened too long ago. Uh, but um that's the only time that has ever been the case. Now, contrast First Republic Bank, which was essentially closing, right, with Fidelity, which has
25:14 been, you know, which is a financial institution been around for a long, long time. If you want to open an account with Fidelity, it will all happen online with Esign. You don't have to go into a branch. You don't have to send in any kind of original documents. It's all done electronically and through ESI. Okay. Contrast that with the process for me as an administrator taking cognizance over an investment
25:51 account that's held by Fidelity Investments where the account holder has died. So, while they they do accept what amounts to a copy of the death certificate because I just had to upload the document into their portal. A word on that in just a moment. Uh they require on the application to to transfer control of the account a so-called wet signature. So, I had to fill out the
26:28 application, print it out, sign it, upload it, and then I'm sorry, and then scan it back onto my computer, and then upload it. I'm Who does that in this day and age, right? I mean, if they can accept Eign when they open an account, a regular account, why can't they accept Eign? In fact, why don't they just set it up for e- sign directly for an administrator who's taking control of an account? And the only the
27:05 only rationale I can come up with is this is a way of delaying when an administrator gets control of funds and potentially removes them from Fidelity. Right? If if an they can't make the case that this is fraud prevention because if it was fraud prevention, why are they allowing it in another type albeit a similar type of transaction, right? Makes makes no sense at all. Uh what it does do is it it causes delays,
27:42 right? And interestingly enough, uh the representative with whom I'm dealing, she didn't know this, right? So, I originally uploaded a document with an electronic signature or I mean I didn't upload the document. I I filled out the document, the application, signed it electronically, uploaded it to their port port hole. She reviewed it and then sent it on to the processing people who then kicked it back to her because it didn't have a so-called wet signature. So then she she
28:18 comes back to says, "I I the I I'm sorry for the delay, but the the application needs a wet signature." So then I emailed her back saying, "Well, do you need to me do I have to send an original, you know, a document with an original signature by conventional mail?" Because I thought, well, that's the only way to know for sure it's a wet signature, right? I mean, otherwise, what's the difference? It's still an electronic signature for all intents and purposes, right? So, to my surprise, she said, "No, after you sign it, you can just scan it in and upload it again."
28:56 You know, I'm laughing, but it's just it's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. Now to boot, okay, the portal that you use to upload documents to Fidelity is very very very particular about how documents are named. You know, in this day and age with all the cloud computing and all this stuff, the idea that that document pro naming protocol is so
29:32 narrow. Again, it's it's just ridiculous. In the case of Fidelity, you couldn't have any spaces. So like on a Mac computer which is what I use you can name a document you know uh um account transfer application and you can have spaces between account and transfer and transfer uh you know an application or whatever right their portal would not accept that. Okay. So, there had to be an underscore between them. And it would
30:08 only accept numbers and letters. Okay. So, I I think even it wouldn't even take the underscore. I tried the underscore. It wouldn't take it because that's a special character and it won't take special characters. Right? Then on top of that, the application as one scan document was too large. the maximum document it would take was 10 megabytes. Well, if your application is larger than 10 megabytes once it's s, you know, signed by hand and uploaded,
30:45 why would you put such an a limitation? So, I had to rescan it in two parts, right, in order to upload the application. Again, I'm laughing. It's just so ludicrous in this day and age to have such an antiquated system. And I'm willing to bet I I don't remember. I know I've I know I've opened accounts with Fidelity uh you know original accounts. I don't think when you open an account you have the same kind of limitations on the sizes and names of the documents you upload. Okay. This is something unique
31:22 to handling account an account through the the department that handles uh deceased account holders. Right. So brokerages generally speaking I I haven't account I haven't encountered a brokerage company yet where they don't have a dedicated department for handling the accounts of deedants. Okay. And I've dealt with Schwab. I've dealt with TD Ameritrade. I've dealt with Fidelity. I'm sure there's some others that I'm not remembering. Um, and so, uh,
31:58 evidently, I don't know, they have a completely separate system than the rest of their institution. I don't know. All I can tell you is it's it's antiquated at fidelity. And it it it took me three weeks to be able to, at least it appears, correctly fill out, sign, and upload an application to take control of an account of a deedent at Fidelity. Okay.
32:34 because it it got kicked back a number of times for various other minor problems that I don't recall at this point. Right. Uh again, this is not anything like proper customer service and the fact that their representative has not been properly trained on the procedures, does not have the authority to accept documents. Okay, this is another problem, right? So, you would think someone in the department
33:10 has the ability to clear a document. No. No. The person you're speaking to has no such authority. It goes to I don't know if it's a legal department or a special documents review department. It's kind it's somewhat nebulous. Uh but there's these other people that approve it, right? And I I this may be a way of you know shielding their frontline people from the frustration that people like me who are administrating estates go through at the
33:45 kind of delays and inefficiencies that these institutions create. So uh you know just be advised this is this is what you're going with this is these are the kinds of things with which you're going to deal uh you know you're just going to we just have to be sanguin about it there's nothing that can be done once somebody dies their account is at that institution it's not going to get moved uh like I said with the exception of an institution that no longer exists I've I've had similar things at
34:21 the other ones I've dealt with. Although the reason I'm talking about Fidelity is it is far and away the worst that I've dealt with uh in in in my career. And uh and so I I I don't know what what do you do about this? I guess you just maybe in your your your trust you put in a a consolation clause. I'm sorry to do this to you, but you know, my brokerage accounts are housed at such and such and good luck with, you know, dealing with their, you know, bureaucracy or something like that. Maybe an aside letter. Uh, I talked about ethical
34:57 wills, I think a couple weeks ago. Maybe put in an ethical will, you know, some some commiseration for your executive or the administrator trustee of your estate. Okay. So, that's on the brokerage account side. All right. And okay. So, next let's talk about banks. And I'm I'm going to talk about uh two of them. I'll go ahead and talk about JP Morgan Chase first. So, I had an estate where the accounts were held by First Republic, but in in the interim
35:36 uh First Republic failed and they were they were taken over by JP Morgan Chase. Uh however, First Republic was operated as a separate institution for a while after it was after it was acquired by JP Morgan Chase. And and that that's not unusual. Typically, when banks merge, they'll operate individually for a time and then eventually they'll figure out what they want to do to merge them into one institution. Okay, this happened when uh US Bank bought Union Bank here
36:13 in Los Angeles. Uh it it happened when RBC bought uh City National Bank. Also again a City National Bank was one of the best known and frankly bestloved uh local banks here in Los Angeles for decades. Uh so the the situ and if you are in a situation like that where the bank that holds accounts for for the deedent has been acquired by another bank but they're still operating separately.
36:49 Okay. You've got a window of opportunity in order to get through the process. Otherwise, it's going to get much much more complicated in all likelihood. And that's what happened with JP Morgan Chase. So, we I started the process of getting the accounts under my cognizance as the administrator and and on the bank side, First Republic was a complete disaster. The people were in disarray. Most of them were losing their jobs.
37:26 couldn't have cared less about getting this taken care of, which was a stark distinction with the fellow I dealt with on their on the brokerage side of First Republic Bank. So, it shows you different parts of an institution, even different people can have a very different attitude toward customer service. So several I I worked for several months trying to get control of the accounts and while I was able to get control over about 2third of them for some strange
38:05 reason First Republic Bank would not process the paperwork to for me to take control over the other third of the accounts. There were I think there were in total about 15 to 20 accounts at First Republic when I started. And so then JP Morgan got into the mix and they wanted to go through the whole paperwork situation again and there wasn't a whole lot I could do about it. So I went through the PA all the paperwork again, submitted it all
38:42 again. they still wouldn't give me control of these accounts and they kept they kept saying well you should have done this with first republic or I mean you can't you can't believe the creativity of the excuses they gave but the bottom line was I had been appointed by the court as the administrator of this estate and there were no grounds for JP Morgan Chase to withhold hold consent for me to take control of those accounts. So, I had the law on my side
39:18 in this case. Eventually, I had to get my lawyers involved. They contacted the person at JP Morgan Chase with whom I was dealing, who of course moved it over to JP Morgan Chase's legal people. Now, there's nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't expect a frontline person to deal with lawyers. That's not what they're there to do. And in fact, I if if they were if they were going to deal with the lawyers directly, I would really question the sanity not only of that individual, but of JP Morgan Chase letting a non-awyer deal with lawyers. Okay, so now the
39:54 lawyers are, you know, emailing it out, right? Not duking it out, emailing it out. Let's take another break and I'll tell you how that worked out. Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration. Featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Bralet, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate
40:29 professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time searching. So, we're back at Trusts and Probate. Uh um um sorry. Um, what am I doing here? Oh my gosh. Okay, so anyway, we're back. Sorry. A bit of a senior moment, I guess. And
41:05 we're talking about how institutions, financial institutions fail heirs and and frankly make the lives of administrators more difficult and aggravating. So, I'm talking about a situation where an estate had its accounts with First Republic Bank, which had been taken over by JP Morgan Chase. However, I wasn't able to get control of all the accounts by before JP Morgan Chase and First Republic were going to integrate. And
41:40 so, I had already done all the paperwork on the First Republic Bank side. And yet they for I don't I still don't know why they refused to hand over control of all the accounts instead of just about twothirds of the accounts. So then I submitted the paperwork to JP Morgan Chase and they refused. Uh, and so I finally got my lawyers involved and the lawyers are emailing back and forth, back and forth, and finally the JP Morgan Chase lawyer
42:16 agrees, yes, we have to turn over control of these accounts to your client. Now, by the way, it was a lot of money. there was uh well over a million dollars, probably like a million and a half dollars on deposit with uh First Republic Bank at the time the deedent passed away. And so again, I think that the real incentive here was to hold on to the money as long as possible because that's how banks make their money. Uh, however, by the time JP Morgan Chase finally agreed to hand over control of
42:54 the accounts, I had, you know, the, well, not me personally, but the estate had, it had cost the estate five figures worth of of attorney's fees, not to mention, you know, my time and uh, you know, there was lost interest on the money because I could have invested it. And so I said to my lawyers, um, I I think we should hold JP Morgan Chase responsible for all the expenses and loss of income uh that the estate
43:29 suffered as a result of their refusal to turn over control of the funds. And and that's what we did. So, we filed a petition in the probate court and we we detailed what the expenses were, the legal fees, the the cost of my time to the estate and the lost uh uh interest income. Now, we didn't we ended up not pursuing that claim, but JP Morgan did end up settling and we got a five figure
44:04 settlement from JP Morgan Chase uh because of what was pretty clearly bad faith on that bank's part in not handing over control of those accounts. And and so, you know, none of this needed to happen. The people at First Republic, at the First Republic, the bank side of First Republic, I want to I want to distinguish from that because I don't want to diminish how well the brokerage side took care of matters. But people on the bank side were just it was beyond
44:41 not being customer serviceoriented. They were just negligent in how they handled the whole matter. And and so then when it got to the JP Morgan Chase side and they wanted to drag, you know, they insist on dragging me through the whole process over again. It was just it was it was bad faith at that point. Okay. And so as an administrator I don't think we need to just sit back and say oh well you know say la or sea you know we don't need to say that especially if there are large
45:16 sums of money involved. I think that financial institutions need to be held accountable for how they handle matters. Okay. And I'm not a big fan of litigation. On the other hand, it's certainly worth it to file a petition with the probate court exposing the I don't know incompetence, bad faith of an institution and asking for monetary relief on the part of the estate because in the end
45:52 it's the heirs who are losing out right if it costs and I don't remember the exact figuring this way. But if it costs, you know, $40,000 in legal fees to get control of these accounts, that's not an expense that that I, as the administrator, pay out of my own pocket. I'm not responsible for the bad faith of a financial institution. Uh, it will come out of the heir's pocket. Now, you you might say, well, but wait, they're like getting a million and a half dollars. Well, yeah, okay, sure. But they should have to pay
46:29 $40,000 to get their million half dollars because the institution is refusing to handle things properly. No. And and and by the way, the cost to file the petition was maybe a couple of thousand dollar. So I was risking, you know, probably all told a few thousand to recover the cost to the estate. Now again we did end up settling and so the you know the net gain to the estate wasn't the full amount of the cost but
47:06 at least it mitigated some of the cost and you know to have you know to have pursued the petition in court would have cost a lot more. And so, you know, in in, you know, in consultation with my lawyers, we decided that, you know, we we would take the settlement and and kind of move on with our day. But I do think that as part of my fiduciary duty, I had to do what I could reasonably do, what it was financially reasonable to do to, in this
47:42 case, hold JP Morgan Chase accountable. And I do think that uh in the end JP Morgan Chase made the right decision in settling this this petition uh because uh I I think if I had to have gone forward with the petition, I probably would have won, you know, despite the inexperience of the judge. Uh you know, it was it was somewhat of a you know, David and Goliath scenario. And given what would appear to be her
48:17 attitude about things like that, uh, you know, she could have potentially held them responsible, uh, for, you know, the entire amount of our claim, including the attorney's fees for filing the petition and and and, you know, going to a hearing on the petition, etc. So, um, it was the smart thing for JP Morgan Chase to settle when they did. So that that's one banking example. Uh the other bank example I want to give is uh US Bank. Uh
48:52 US Bank is I it turns out somewhat notorious for the way it handles deedent accounts. Uh, and I've I I've had a a number of bad interactions with US Bank and I will tell you candidly to the point where I I I won't bank with them anymore. It's just just just too difficult uh and and too uncertain. So one of the challenges with US Bank and this is actually true
49:27 of all these institutions is you're dealing with a frontline person and that person in turn is talking to their legal department but they won't let you talk directly to the legal department. So I had a situation with US Bank. I was working on in this case it was a trust and the the trust had just one asset left in it. It happened to be a a house. Uh all of the bank accounts for the trust had been uh depleted and
50:04 and and therefore closed. And now they were at the point where they were they meaning the trustees were going to sell the house and they needed an account to put the money from the sale of the house into. Right. And so you know I I talked to a number of banks and at the time I had a relationship kind of at US Bank. And so I went and I called my banker and I said here's what I need to do. Can you help me? and he said, "Well, let let me talk to legal and see what I can work out." Okay,
50:41 that's fine. I that's I don't have a problem with that. You know, better to confer with the, you know, higherups or whatever than saying yes and then it turn whatever, you know, the whole big thing. So, absolutely clear. So, the fellow my my banker calls me back a day or two later. He says, "Okay, um we can do it. uh uh so send me now they had lost the trust document that was one of the problems uh but California has a statute that provides for using a certificate of trust in lie
51:17 of the trust itself and I had I had had the trustees draw up a certificate of trust on the form it's a it's a form dictated by statute okay so I sent that to to my banker so he could clear it in advance, okay? Because I knew we were going to have to go into the branch to actually open the account. And lo and behold, he said, "No, this won't work. You have to do it on our form." Now, this is one of the this this is a problem with uh really every institution
51:52 um I've dealt with. And that is although the certificate of trust is a form described in the California Probate Code, every institution wants to use their own form. And if you look at them, the differences are minuscule at the most, but for whatever reason, they want to use their own form. This is true of every title company, every bank. I don't I don't care what it is. For whatever reason, they want you to use their own form. And so, if you have a situation where you've lost the original trust
52:27 document and you're going to be using a certificate of trust, I mean, you can have one filled out, but it does require notoriization and and there is a cost, you know, to getting a certificate of trust notorized. So probably the simplest thing is if you're going to be dealing with a specific institution is rather than having you know creating a certificate of trust and saying will this work just say to them please send me your form certificate of trust I'll have that filled out and notorized and that way there shouldn't
53:02 be any there won't be any question as to whether your institution will accept it because it's your form that's the simplest way to deal with it and in the event a US bank insisted on using their form certificate of trust. So So I had to have my clients uh I had to have them do a second certificate of trust. Okay. Okay. But but now presumably we're good to go, right? Because we've got the certificate of trust and and so we go we we have a meeting scheduled at the branch. We show up at the branch with the original
53:38 certificate of trust and the uh the death certificates, original death certificates, and my banker goes to open the account and legal refuses to open the account. They just flat out refuse. So even though they had said it was okay before they in the interim, for whatever reason, they changed their mind and they wouldn't open the account. And this is this is when I found out. I said, 'Well, let me speak to your legal department. He said, 'They won't they won't talk to you.' I said, 'Well, then let let my lawyer let my lawyer speak to me. He said, ' They won't speak to your lawyer either. So, I said to my banker,
54:15 I said, "Let me explain to you what you're saying to me. What you're saying to me is, Kevin, I don't want to do business with you anymore." I mean, the idea that they would make a decision and provide me no avenue for discussing that decision is beyond ludicrous. It's just that goes again that goes beyond not being customer serviceoriented. That's just I I don't even know what to call it, right? But that's that's what
54:50 they did. That was my first inkling that US Bank is not an institution to use when there's a a trust or estate involved. So then on on a different estate, this was an estate, this was a probate. So this particular estate owned a property and it had it had a loan there was a loan on the property that had been made by US Bank. Okay. And the loan gave US Bank the right but not the obligation
55:30 to call the loan if the deedent died. Okay. And US Bank just decided to call the loan because they could. And what's what's most annoying, I have to say, is you get these sort of crocodile tears from them. Oh, we're so sorry to hear that our borrower has died. No, you're not. You're absolutely happy because you're g you're going to take advantage of that situation to almost double the interest rate on the loan.
56:07 Okay? And this was a fight that went on for a year. Fortunately, this particular estate in the end had the funds to just pay off the loan, but it was tremendous bad faith on the part of US Bank. And my one regret about that situation was they did reconvey the lean on the property in a timely fashion. I was hoping they I was hoping they wouldn't kind of because in California there's a statutory amount of
56:42 time they have to reconvey and if they don't reconvey within that time limit it's essentially automatic bad faith if not fraud and then I could hold I could have held US bank responsible for having cheated the estate. So you know this was my experience with US Bank. the person I dealt with, I think she it really was a matter of she had handled the matter incorrectly. And so, while the matter could have been settled and compromised, she refused to
57:19 because I think she knew she looked bad in front of her supervisors. And so, she was going to make herself look good by essentially cheating the estate in the way she handled the loan payoff. Uh I'm not going to mention her name um because that I I that's not a proper thing to do. But what I will tell you is subsequent to this incident or to these two incidents with US Bank, I was talking to a colleague of mine who is a lawyer who deals with uh estate planning and trust and probate uh litigation and
57:55 he mentioned to me he had had an egregious incident with US Bank as well. So that says to me that this is a bank that they they cannot be relied upon to do the right thing when it comes to accounts be they you know bank accounts or be they loan accounts of an account holder who has died or a borrower who has died. So you know I I would advise you to steer clear of of US Bank uh just in general uh because
58:30 you know they are likely to fail your heirs uh a at the time or your client's heirs uh when it be when it comes time for the estate or the trust to be administrated. So this is how institutions fail heirs. How do you deal with it? You just have to be on your toes. You have to document everything. How was I able to get a settlement from JP Morgan Chase? Everything was documented in an email. Okay? Even if I had a phone call with someone, I sent them an email confirming what was discussed in the phone call.
59:06 So, because I had those records, voluminous emails, basically, JP Morgan Chase realized they weren't going to be able to sustain their case and they needed to just in the end capitulate, get it done, negotiate a settlement, and move on. Now, I will say, by the way, that in the case of US Bank, they decided that they were going to litigate no matter what. They didn't care that I was able to document everything that I claimed in emails. Their attitude was,
59:41 "We don't care. You know, we're we're gonna we're if if we have to litigate, we'll litigate." Okay? And that's that's a big distinction and that's why I made the recommendation a moment ago not not to bank with US Bank. That is not a reasonable position for them to take. uh at least with JP Morgan Chase, they finally acknowledged that what they were doing was not right. They were willing to settle. Now, part of that, I think, had to do with the lawyer involved who handled the matter in lawyerly fashion. The lawyers who
60:17 were representing US Bank on a number of occasions violated lawyer ethics by contacting me directly even though I was represented by a lawyer. And that shows you that these lawyers were not giving their client proper advice. They didn't care. Right? You might say, "Oh, that's no big deal. Lots of lawyers do that." Right? Lawyers who are willing to violate their ethics are probably also going to misadvise their clients. Okay? So that an institution like US
60:52 Bank would have lawyers that do that tells you what kind of institution they are. Okay. And so, you know, like while I I talked about the mistakes that JP Morgan Chase made, uh, in the end they were willing to fix it and settle the matter um and and acknowledge their error and US Bank was not. And that is the difference. That is the difference in as an administrator. So these are how institutions fail heirs. As administrators, as as lawyers
61:29 representing estates, we have to be on our toes. We have to document, document, document. We have to be willing to really press them to fulfill their obligations, hold them accountable when they have been uh, shall we say, abusive of the bureaucratic policies they put in force. Um but in the end of course it really comes down to we have to do what is right for the heirs and that may mean uh compromising and settling even though we really want to you know
62:05 put paid you know to an institution that has been uh terrible in in the way they have handled a particular matter. So I thank you very much for joining me today. Um, I'm going to be off for the next couple of days for the Russia Shana holiday. Uh, but I will be back on Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific time for my every other week show, Jiggers's Place. So, we'll have a cocktail and a schmoo. I actually won't be drinking the cocktail. It's a fast day, but I'll make mix up the cocktail so you can see it and you can enjoy it and we'll sit back
62:40 and smoo and we'll wrap up our week that way. So, thank you so much for joining me today, especially my live viewers. Always a treat. For my for my fellow Jews who are watching this, wishing you a sha tova, a good year. May all of your heart's desires be granted by God. And may you have a year of good health, sweetness, and prosperity. And signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell.