0:02 Who are you and where are you going? What do you want? [Music] Hello and welcome to Business Lessons from the Military. I'm your host, Kevin Bemel, and I'm here every Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific time to talk about military history, doctrine, and the practices of military leaders, and then distill from them lessons that we can apply to our businesses and professional practices.
0:39 So, today I'm going to be talking about the uh invasion of Grenada. Now, uh if if you're my age, it it was probably a pretty memorable event uh back in 1983. Of course, if you're younger, you may not have even been born. Um but you may have heard things about it. Um it was a an operation uh launched during the time that Ronald Reagan was president and as kind of a um
1:15 uh um setting the scene for it if you will. So um historically uh President Reagan took office after President Jimmy Carter. Um and and during uh Jimmy Carter's time as president, there were a couple of um um bad things that happened, I guess, militarily um including the taking of hostages um at the time of uh um the fall of of the Shaw in Iran. Um and they were held captive. Um, President Carter made uh or
1:53 not made, but he authorized a a rescue attempt that went uh very badly. Um, and and having come out of the Vietnam War, not in particularly uh prestigious view of the world. So this this time period um was was was kind of a a low point uh for the American military. And and so along comes um what what was called Operation Urgent Fury, the the Grenada
2:30 rescue operation. Um and it it began the um sort of rehabilitation if you will of the image of the American military. And just like uh you know the American military can um be perceived well and then it it its reputation declines and it has to rebuild it. The same is true for a business. So often times a business will be riding high and then for various reasons it will um its its reputation
3:07 will decline. It it may be because of something that the business did. It may be because of something that uh leaders of the business do. It may just be that the economy is changing and and so you know the business is not nearly as relevant as it was before. So if you look at a company like IBM for example, so IBM was the leader in computers for for you know quite a long time. Um but then with the advent of personal computers uh IBM just could not keep
3:44 pace and today um IBM I mean I I hear commercials for it um on on various business podcasts to which I listen but there is no way that one could classify IBM as one of the premier companies in the of the you know in the United States uh in the way it was uh back in the, you know, 1960s, for example. The same is true of Eastman Kodak, right? The vaunted uh camera and film company uh
4:19 was a a tremendous force in the business world u especially in 1940s,50s and 60s. And then and and interestingly enough um uh Kodak actually developed digital printing um but rather than in exploiting this new technology it fell behind I'm sorry not digital uh digital photography I believe it was not digital printing um but um it instead of exploiting these new technologies it it did it continued with its um its
4:55 existing businesses because it thought that these new technologies would cannibalize its existing businesses. And so, where is Kodak today? It's it's nowhere. I mean, it's, you know, a a great American company that's virtually um, you know, disappeared from the business scene. So, like the military, like businesses, right, we we go through these cycles. And so I think that um examining what happened in Grenada or with the invasion of Grenada will be useful uh to to understand how the
5:31 United States military started to rebuild its image um faced with you'll see a number of of problems um how they how creative solutions were determined and and what business lessons we can draw from that. So just a real brief history of the uh the invasion. So in October of 1983, uh President uh Reagan, as I mentioned, ordered the invasion of Grenada. It Grenada is a small island in the Caribbean. Um and there was a Marxist
6:06 coup um basically led by or not led literally but but sort of underwritten by Cuba. um that resulted in the execution of Prime Minister Maurice Bishop. Um and and the takeover of takeover of the government of of uh Grenada was an island but was also a nation. The takeover takeover of the government by um people um aligned with um uh Fidel Castro uh the the dictator of of Cuba at that time. So, um, the
6:42 operation aimed at rescuing approximately a thousand, uh, American medical students and restored democratic government on the island and in in essence restore Grenada as an ally of the United States. So, you may be asking why were Americans going to medical school in Grenada? And the simple answer is because um there is insufficient capacity for medical students here in the United States. Um and so uh you know if someone doesn't
7:18 qualify to get into an American an Americanbased medical school oftentimes they will at least back then they would look to other places like Grenada uh to attend medical school. So the invasion began on uh the 25th of October 1983. Uh there were about 7,000 uh US service members involved from from all the various uh service branches. Um and despite um initial intelligence failures and communications problems and
7:53 coordination problems and logistical problems, all of these things, you know, sort of coalescing to make it appear that this invasion was going to be a disaster. Um within a few days, um the uh the operation had succeeded. So all of the American students were safely evacuated and a pro-western government was restored in Grenada. Um the operation was largely popular among the American people. Um and and as I
8:28 mentioned at the beginning, it helped restore confidence in the American mil in American military capability following setbacks in in Iran. And then uh early in President Reagan's term uh in in Lebanon, the the bombing of the barracks in uh marine barracks in Lebanon. So I'm going to go through um the the problems that were faced and and talk about uh h you know how they were how how they were overcome. Okay. And and and we'll look at we'll draw some business lessons
9:03 uh from that. So, um, first of all, there were, um, the intelligence failures were were pretty manifest. Military planners relied on outdated, no kidding, tourist maps, okay, and old aerial photographs. There was no current intelligence on Cuban uh, troop strengths, okay? They were estimated at between 6 and 700. Actually, there were over a thousand Cuban troops on the island. There was no detailed information about airport defenses or
9:38 terrain, poor understanding of the local political dynamics and and also civilian locations. So, you know, from an intelligence standpoint, it was pretty disastrous. I mean, it for all intents and purposes, they had no uh usable intelligence. Now that would have been fine if they if they knew they had no usable intelligence but the fact of the matter is they thought hey we know what's going on here right so there are known so blind as he who will not see goes the famous song right so the the the commanders had to adapt by relying
10:16 on real time battlefield reconnaissance um airborne assets um uh um um aerial photographs you know being taken by aircraft flying over the island. They provided immediate intelligence information and updates and local sources were quickly cultivated on the ground. So um in general the people the people of Grenada were were happy about the invasion. They did not want to live under uh Cuban domination. um they they
10:51 I think they knew what life was like for the average Cuban and and they had no interest in living that way. And so um by this sort of real time intelligence gathering, right, flexible mission planning sort of took place on the fly and course corrections were made as new intelligence information came in. And so by quickly by by by um uh honestly assessing the intelligence failures gaps
11:26 and recognizing that this had something had to be done immediately, right? commanders in charge uh took the steps necessary to gather the information um you know that they could get and as that information was coming in they started making corrections right and so this is why despite the the faltering start uh the the operation was wrapped up so successfully and within just a few days. So, uh, a a business example of this,
12:01 uh, was in, uh, 2011 when Ron Johnson took over as CEO of J of JC Penney. Now, again, for people of my vintage, JC Penney was, you know, one of the great department stores of its day. Um, I remember shopping there, you know, with my mom and my dad. I remember we used to get the JC Penney catalog. I don't recall now if it was once a year, twice a year, but it was it was a great American business. Um, but by the uh the 2000s
12:37 um it was it was faltering and so um they hired Ron Johnson to come in and and basically rebuild the company. And so, uh, Johnson just he implemented an absolutely radical pricing strategy, uh, based on completely outdated assumptions about customers and competitor positions. So J C Penney by then was known for a lot of discounting and coupons and clearance events and and um
13:12 and you know that's what all the customers were used to and wanted and Johnson got rid of all of that and in doing so he essentially alienated JC Penneyy's uh core customer base. This led to a 25% drop in revenue in one year. Okay. I mean, and and and given the the the how JC Penneyy's uh business had previously
13:47 declined, this was pretty devastating. And and I think arguably JC Penney really, you know, never I mean it it never recovered. Not really. It it never recovered from this. Um you know, Johnson was eventually essentially fired and now JC Penney was left to rebuild and one of the first things it had to do was it had to recreate its ability to gather market intelligence and to, you know, gradually return to its
14:22 promotional pricing strategies that that really matched customer preferences. So uh you know bringing in new leadership sometimes can be uh the right the right step. Um but that leadership um and and bold leadership can be the right step as well. But that bold leadership has to know the business about which he's making decisions. Okay. and and if he
14:57 doesn't um he's as likely to make drastic mistakes as he is to affect a turnaround if if that's what he's been hired to do. Okay. So um intelligence the the lesson is and and for you know for Ron Johnson he would have been much better. It would have been much better for him had he gathered market intelligence first or if you know if he you know if he had if if he did what he did just moving forward essentially blindly he should have in real time looked to gather that intelligence and
15:34 make on the-fly corrections to his strategy. that would have been much better off than like sticking to his guns and essentially driving such a huge revenue decline. Okay, so intelligent failures, one of the lessons from Grenada. Next is communication breakdowns. Now, there's there's a famous incident in this that I'll talk about. For those of you who know the battle the the um uh the the operation, you know, to to rescue the rescue operation in Grenada, you probably know the story to to which I'm alluding. But,
16:11 um the problem was the army and the navy radio systems were incompatible and so they couldn't communicate. I mean it it seems shocking by today's standards but you know how could this possibly be but if you think back to World War II okay uh the army and the navy actually communic intercommunicated very little okay and in fact the the sort of ground force with which the Navy routinely dealt um you know up through even Korea
16:49 was the United States Marine Marine Corps. So there was there was good operability between the the the Navy and the Marine Corps, but when it came to coordinating with the Army, communication was basically a bust. The the systems couldn't couldn't communicate. So um there there's a there's a famous story and it's true um that a Navy officer who was providing uh liaison who who was a liaison with the army coordinating naval gunfire support of the army ground operations. He had to
17:26 use a pay phone to call the Pentagon so that the Pentagon could relay information to the ships on the scene so they could provide proper uh gunfire support. I if you can imagine I mean that is that is just crazy when you think about it. But that's that's what that's what he did. I think he used like a credit his credit card to make a longdistance call to the Pentagon, right? So, different branches used different frequencies, different encryption systems. Ground troops
18:02 couldn't communicate with close air support or gunfire support. So, it it it it was a mess. Um and and the solution was the kind of thing that this Navy liaison officer did, which is to find creative workarounds like like the the you know the pay phone that actually worked, right? So they they quickly uh sent out more liaison officers um between units to relay communications. So um they used visual signals if you can imagine um I don't know if it was literally semaphore or or what they used
18:39 but uh um but they used you know visual signals they had pre-arranged coordination points um and then they rapidly deployed additional communication equipment from the United States um so that various you know so that these incompatible systems could be replaced with systems that could you know talk to each other basically, right? So, uh you know, again, it was it was the quick recognition of problems in this case uh by service members in the field communicating that data to the
19:15 commanders who then had to quickly come up with creative solutions, right? Okay. So clearly communication systems are missionritical. Um and and an organization a business organization whose units or divisions um are not able to communicate quickly and effectively are at minimally a huge competitive market disadvantage. So um when Knight Capital Group introduced a
19:50 new trading system, trading a trading software system in 2012, um there was a communication breakdown between the development and operations teams and it led to the wrong version being installed on production servers, the servers that were actually handling trades. Right? The faulty system sent seven billion dollar in erroneous erroneous trades in 45 minutes. And the result of this debacle was the company had to file for
20:27 bankruptcy protection. Right? So this lack of communication between the development team and the operations team essentially I I don't want to say destroyed the company um but but put them in in putting them in in situation where they had to completely reorganize the company right all because you know the wrong version of the software was used right so knight resolved this problem by in by um imple implementing mandatory uh cross team verification protocols. They
21:04 automated automated deployment checks to prevent similar communications failures. So they did they did you know figure out what was wrong but unfortunately by the time they figured that out tremendous damage had been done to the company and its reputation right and so within our companies communication really is the key now you might think well I'm just I'm just a small business or I'm a solorpreneur so to speak so that's essentially what I am I don't
21:40 have staff that work for my company. However, I what I find is I spend at least 50% of my time ensuring that there is proper communication, proper sharing of information, proper coordination between all the different people with whom I'm involved in the administration of a particular estate or uh you know whatever whatever the matter is uh with which I'm dealing Right. And so one of my key leadership
22:17 responsibilities is to see to it that there are not communications breakdowns. Okay? rather that communication flows uh easily and well I think those are the same thing but that that there's clear and flowing communication between the various people or uh uh contractors or you know vendors if you will uh that need to be involved in a particular situation right and so that's how you know I deal with this
22:52 issue of you know that's how I avoid uh issues of communication breakdown. So the communi communication effective communication isn't just within your company although obviously that's critical. It's also among customers among suppliers, vendors, even government agencies. So um I know this is back over a year ago now. Um, one of the estates that I'm administrating, um, one of the properties got dinged by the, uh, building department for the city of
23:28 Los Angeles. Um, and the first thing I did was contact the inspector and establish communications with him, find out what needed to be done, and then basically set up a communication protocol so that as the problem was being was being handled, he would get information and so could could ask questions, could give input as he deemed necessary. And the good part about that was that in the end, although it turned out we had made a couple of mistakes in
24:04 how we had dealt with things, he was absolutely willing to work with us because he saw that we were intent on making on making sure he knew what was going on so that he was for example not blindsided by a question from his superior or something like that. Okay. So communications need to be exam or need to be dealt with broadly not just within your organization but uh you know throughout all all the all the parties and entities with which with whom you you deal. Okay let's take a break.
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25:18 League of the United States. Help us support those who serve at sea. Visit navyleague.org. Okay, so this is Business Lessons from the Military and I'm your host Kevin Bemel. We're talking about the lessons we can learn from the Grenada rescue operation. Um the the official name was Operation Urgent Fury. Okay. And I talked about a couple of lessons already. Um, one is was about um dealing with intelligence, bad intelligence or
25:54 non-existent intelligence. And the next was communications breakdowns. So the next one uh the next problem that um I want to talk about related to uh the Grenada operation was the interervice coordination issues. So um army rangers which is the sort of expeditionary part of of the US army and and the marines. So they landed at different locations without proper coordination. There were overlapping command structures that created a lot of confusion about who had
26:29 the authority to order what. There were uh different services had conflicting operational procedures and timelines. So uh there was a lot of disjointed action and not a lot of coordinated focused effort to to secure the the the goals of this particular mission. Okay. And there was limited joint training uh between participating units. Now again, you might have thought coming out of World War II where there was so much amphibious training uh that went on for
27:04 example for the uh you know the various island hopping and invasion operations in the Pacific. But oftentimes those operations were conducted uh you know the Marine Corps did their training, the Army did their training, the Navy did their training. So there wasn't a lot of joint training going on. Um and and it worked out okay uh because um the Marine Corps and the Navy worked together well enough. Um but um it was by no means smooth and in a a
27:40 much more surgical operation like Grenada, the the lack of interervice coordination really was a problem. So what what the solution was field commanders had to establish informal coordination mechanisms. So senior officers took the initiative to deconlict operations through just through direct communications. They just talked to each other. They they adapted uh leadership adapted to allow units to support each other uh despite whatever the original plans were uh so that the
28:17 operation could go more smoothly. and they established clear geographical boundaries between different services operations to make sure that there weren't there wasn't, you know, friendly fire damage caused by, you know, the Marines not knowing where the Army Rangers were, etc., etc. So, you know, once again, you see in this case, we're talking about the leadership in the field uh being proactive um and and and dealing with the problems that were right in front of them and to a certain extent, you know, kind of
28:52 throwing away the book and saying, "Look, the the the plan is only going to only going to result in disaster. So we've got to reconfigure this and then we'll back brief uh you know the senior this the most senior commanders right and this is by the way one of the aspects of the United States military that has always made it so strong and that is the adaptability of both not just the commissioned officers but the non-commissioned officers and the senior non-commissioned officers. So being able to look at
29:30 what's happening on the scene at the in the moment and making the adjustments that need to be made in order to uh better um achieve whatever the objective is for for that particular unit or that particular um you know that particular service branches uh part of the overall operation. Right? So um an example of this in the business world is uh a service named Quibby which launched in 2020. Um and it's it's it's um
30:05 content technology and marketing teams operated largely independently and they had different success metrics. They had different timelines. I mean again it seems just how could they possibly do this right? How could you have different timelines for, you know, launching this service? It it it seems crazy, but but this is what happens when parts of a business get siloed and are and are not required to work it together on an interactive
30:40 basis, right? And um be because of of the just essentially complete lack of of uh interaction between the various uh the various departments of Quibby the streaming service failed in six months. basically they just they could not uh they could not implement shared dashboards, unified metrics um they I mean they I'm sorry that um they could not um successfully launch the service and and and meet all these
31:15 conflicting metrics. It was just complete essentially complete chaos. right now. Contrast that with a successful streaming pla platform like Roku um that had similar challenges with implementing things like um shared dashboards, having unified metrics and having crossf functional planning. Okay, they were able to do that and therefore they were able to be successful in launching. Right? So you can see two two companies in in the same business taking a
31:53 different approach to uh sort of interdisciplinary coordination. one six months, you know, into into launch is bankrupt or it basically goes out of business and and the other one um you know is is able to overcome the the problems and go on to be successful and and here's the thing when we're especially when we're talking about a product product or service launch things are going to go wrong, right? I mean that is the nature of it. So what what
32:28 what we want to do is we want to have a situation where all the departments of the business can respond cohesively to the problems that are that are uh disrupting the launch. What we don't want them to have to do is have to deal with the problems of not working together cohesively that are exacerbate that are exacerbating the problems of the launch itself. Right? That is that is a burden that's essentially um well I I don't want to say too difficult but it's it's
33:05 so much more difficult to overcome that many businesses don't. Right? So it teams need to practice working together. Departments need to practice working together. There may be a need for liaons from different departments uh you know to to so you may need a liaison from the marketing department working with the operations people and vice versa right and that way things can be deconlicted okay before the launch. Okay. And it's not, of course, it's not just at launch time. While launch is obviously a
33:40 critical aspect of a business, ongoing operations can suffer as well when the different departments are not coordinating well. Okay. So, um interervice or interdep departmental coordination big problem in Grenada that got fixed and the operation was successful. um an issue too in businesses that needs that is better dealt with upfront um before it causes a breakdown a breakdown in the larger business. Okay. Next there were um logistical and
34:16 execution problems. So um at the at the invasion um they realized pretty quickly on there was insufficient airlift capacity um and so troop deployments were delayed. Uh medical evacuation procedures were not um were not uh well coordinated. There were supply chain issues affecting resupply of ammunition and equipment distribution. weather conditions hampered uh helicopter operations, friendly fire incidents, you know, due to things like
34:52 poor target identification. Um you know, hampered execution of the mission. Obviously, when you're shooting your own people, not a good thing, right? And finally, um there were ci civilian casualties due to one of the things I mentioned before, uh poor intelligence about who was using which buildings and and and you know and therefore which ones should be attacked and which ones should not. Okay. So all of this sort of logistical and exe all of these logistical and execution problems um
35:27 they they were first of all like all the others they had to be solved in real time and and and changes needed to be made on the fly in order to gain success in Grenada. So, one of the first things that uh commanders decided was to make to to develop a prioritization of critical supplies and personnel. Since airlift was limited, they had to bring in the most important stuff first. Now, you may say, well, of course, why weren't they doing that anyway? Well, if
36:02 you think you've got sufficient airlift capability, so then prioritization isn't necessarily as important. And if you don't have to prioritize, that's just one less thing that people have to put attention to. They can spend their their mental focus elsewhere. Okay? But when you have insufficient airlift capability, you're you're you're going to have to prioritize and people are going to have to really deal with that problem to make sure what what is most important to be gotten to a particular location gets there. Okay, so that was
36:37 one thing. Um next they established alternative landing zones um when primary landing zones were compromised. They improvised uh medical facilities um using captured buildings. They used uh navy ships as staging areas to overcome airlift limitations. Okay. and they implemented um new and stricter rules of engagement and target verification um in order to avoid uh friendly fire incidents and and the um you know wrongful killing of of civilians, right?
37:14 And then they also um deployed special operations teams um to to do more precise uh reconnaissance um again to well first of all to provide information on what needed to be priorities. Secondly to make sure that there weren't more uh targeting uh uh you know bad targeting incidents. um and and and then to just generally facilitate better on on the the fly decision makingaking. Okay. So um you
37:51 know anam an example of this again from the business world um so um you know speed can overcome planning deficiencies. Um but we you know a a business still needs to be disciplined in executing its plan. So um and there are there are times sometimes a lot sometimes frequently it's the case that businesses are going to have to execute w even though they don't have uh complete or you know
38:27 whatever perfect information might be but complete information right rarely just like in just like in military operations rarely are business leaders are you going to have all the information that you want before you have to make a decision. The world just doesn't work that way. Okay. So, the the the requirement then is to be able to um to get the information that you need and then be disciplined in your execution so that you can quickly pivot uh when you
39:04 need to. So in 2011 when Google launched Google+, so this was a move by the company uh to compete with Facebook um despite what was um you know afterwards acknowledged to be incomplete planning around user engagement and content strategy. I don't know if you ever were on Google+. I was uh it never um achieved its promise. I I will say right and and so um so this the sort of rapid
39:39 launched it initially gained traction poor ongoing um um poor ongoing execution and and an undisiplined uh attitude toward um dealing with the problems that users were having in their experience on the on the platform. basically led Google+ to be shut down and and like I said that that was my experience with it. Um and and it's interesting because you know Google has been so well Alphabet of course the
40:15 company that owns Google has been so successful in so many areas of internet experience um that they could have not did not and have not since developed any any kind of real social media platform. I mean you you you could say YouTube but of course Google didn't create YouTube Google bought it. So not exactly the same thing. It wasn't a native creation. Um it it is it is interesting that uh you know Google did not have the discipline of execution to make plus or
40:52 for that matter any other social media platform successful. And so uh you know the the lesson for all of us is that while we don't want to make uh the initial mistake I talked about i.e. having poor or no relevant int market intelligence when we're making decisions about our business. it, you know, we're probably going to have to launch or or make decisions with what in the end is incomplete, hopefully
41:30 good market intelligence, just incomplete market intelligence. And so at that point then, discipline and execution will be what makes the difference. Okay? And this kind of goes back to the the first point about dealing with poor intelligence. There's there should be a continual process a continuous process of gathering intelligence so that discipline execution can take place in a way that will make the company successful. Okay. So um uh logistical
42:09 and execution problems can be overcome if a business is sufficiently disciplined enough to deal with the problems and and and fix them. Okay. And then finally um I sort of an overarching uh leadership lesson that comes out of G Grenada and that is that decisive leadership under pressure. Okay. oftent times is what makes the difference. So um so President Reagan's willingness to
42:45 act despite con congressional and international criticism demonstrated that he would lead even under pressure. Okay. He had a clear objective which was to to rescue the American medical students and reestablish a democratic government on Grenada. And he kept the mission focused. He didn't broaden it into some, you know, hairbrained scheme. He he had very specific objectives. They were achievable and in and in the event
43:20 the the the operation was successfully concluded. And if you look at other military missions in which the United States has engaged in in the years going forward, okay, the ones that were successful are ones that essentially from the get-go they had very clear goals, right? So, one of the problems with the global war on terrorism that that in some ways is still going on but certainly went on for 20 years is
43:55 and this is what I was asking basically from the beginning is how do we know we've won right I mean is it that is winning literally every terrorist in the world is killed or imprisoned I mean is is that it and that was the problem there was no metric of victory. There were no established objectives. Right? When we talk about World War II, right, victory in World War II was defined by the Allies as unconditional surrender by
44:32 the Axis powers primarily uh Germany, Japan and Italy. And that's when the war ended. When Germany and it when Germany and Japan unconditionally surrendered, the war ended and the allies knew that they had won. Right? And so part of our job as leaders of businesses is to enunciate clear objectives that that our teams, our people can see how to achieve. They may be audacious
45:07 objectives or they may be more modest ones. Okay. But if they're fuzzy or indeterminate, so then nobody knows when victory can be can be uh declared, right? And so um the other part of it is uh sometimes those objectives need to be set by leaders even though some of their constituents or you know the business commentary if you will uh you know is is
45:45 criticizing them. Okay. And and it's important to have the courage of our convictions when we set objectives for our companies and practices, okay? because there there can be, you know, dark times, so to speak, and being able to have confidence and clearly articulate our vision, okay, like Ronald Reagan did, like President Reagan did with respect to the to um with Operation Urgent Fury, that in the end can
46:22 actually mean the difference between success and failure. If if President Reagan had not had that clear vision, would the senior commanders have been as willing to make the kinds of adjustments and compromises that they made in an attempt to make the operation successful? Right? Would the field commanders have been um as likely to take the career risks they took? Right? But by seeing that that President Reagan
46:57 had articulated a clear vision that he was standing fast in the face of criticism that gave people commanders in the military the confidence to do what they needed to do to achieve victory. Okay. And I think in some ways that is the most important lesson that we can draw from operation urgent fury the res the uh Grenada operation rescue. So, I thank you very much for joining me today. Got my live viewers as always. Great to see you. And tomorrow, excuse
47:32 me, tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show, Business Lessons from the Military. So, I hope you'll join me for that. And that only leaves me to say thank you so much again for joining me. If you have questions, comments, uh criticisms, all the links to social media will be in the show notes. Always happy to to see those. Um, and if you know of someone who you think might enjoy and would benefit from this show, I sure would appreciate it if you would suggest it to them. Um, of course, always want to uh broaden um the the
48:08 number of people or enlarge the number of people that I'm I'm helping uh with my shows. So, once again, thanks for thanks for joining me today and wishing you a wonderful rest of the day. Signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell.