0:02 Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want? [Music] Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemel, and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time uh to talk about estate planning and trust and probate administration uh from the perspective of professionals like myself and and my guest Charity
0:37 Score who uh I'm eager to get to talking to um but also for your own purposes where if you're dealing with your own estate or your own estate planning you want to be able to talk more intelligently to your advisors uh understand what they're saying to you. So, this is the place for you to be as well. So, I'm I'm really excited to to have Charity Score on on the show today. Uh Charity is an escrow officer with Granite Escrow uh in Beverly Hills and you know I don't want to embarrass her
1:12 too much at the beginning of the show here but she is a hearkening back to what escrow officers used how they used to work back when I first started my uh my real estate career. charity I don't think was born when that happened but but this is back in the uh oh gosh it would have been kind of the mid 1980s um and and I I've been trying to remember her name because I dealt with pretty much the same escrow officer for 90% of the escros I did and she was just
1:51 I'm telling you she was on it you know I learned so much from dealing with her and and and Charity and I have been working on an escrow um of a property in probate. And I said, you know, I I got to get you on the show so you can talk to people and and explain to them, you know, this is a different kind of beast. This is not your typical escrow uh situation when it's a property being sold out of probate. So, Charity, thank you so much for for being on the show today. Oh, my pleasure. I'm very excited
2:27 to be here. So, thank you for inviting me. You're welcome. So, before we get into kind of, you know, the meat of our topic, uh, please, you know, tell tell the viewers, listeners, just a little bit about your background so they can understand, you know, who you are, what your experience is, uh, and and they can understand, you know, what it is to be an escrow officer who's, you know, in the top, you know, 1% of the pack. Well, I love that. Thank you. Um, so my name is Charity. I've worked at Granite Escrow. We've been here about three years in this location. Um, but
3:04 I've worked for title companies before. I've worked for very small broker owned. I've been doing this 24 years. So, thanks for the mid80s, a little bit older than that though. Um, I I started just um entrylevel escrow. I've done 1031 exchange. um worked like I said within the title realm um done residential commercial I've also done uh track saleout so kind of dipped my toes into a lot of the different parts of escrow kind of found
3:40 where I think my lane best suits and now just having fun and thriving. Good. Good. Well, so and and you I mean just just your background and all and the the variety of transactions you've done, I think it gives you such a broad uh you know view of of the issues that end up falling on your desk, right? Yeah. Uh so so let's let's jump right in now. Yeah. Talk if you would well first of all first of all for people you know in some states they don't have escros.
4:16 They still do, you know, face-toface closings, right? So, talk for a a couple of minutes if you would. What is an escrow? What does it do? So, so that people just they have an understanding of that uh you know that and the and the process. Absolutely. So, our state is or our state our country is broken up into three main what I'm going to say escrow or settlement services divisions. Um, east coast we have a lot of attorney driven where it's actually an attorney that does the closing. Um, some parts of the east coast do still use title
4:52 companies as a settlement provider. Um, Midwest it's a lot of settlement companies, less attorneys. That's really more of an East Coast thing. And on the West Coast we see escrow companies and title companies. Um, but in the end the functionality is all very very similar. It's it's clearing title. It's being an independent intermediary between buyer and seller. It's um handling documents, handling finance. So, it's a lot of we're that kind of that that in middle
5:28 circle glue that kind of touches everybody in the transaction and has to make sure that the correct terms of the contract are being adhered to as well as keeping private information. How we do it in Southern California is a little bit different than how they do it in in a lot of the country with as you said table closings where the closing is actually everybody sitting around a table together and signing things. It's definitely different here. It is not so um in person as it is in in other places. Still the same level of of expertise of course is needed and in the
6:05 end the same very similar functionality happens throughout the country with what a settlement agent does. Okay. And and I think of I think of escrow as having perhaps two advantages over lawyers and and sort of facetoface closings. And one is number one it it can be um uh non-synchronous other words I can I can deposit documents into the escrow um that does and and the next day the the buyer can deposit money and other words it's not happening asynchronous is the word I'm looking for
6:41 it's asynchronous number one and number two I I mean here in Southern California the thought of having to you know each side hire their lawyer or maybe more than lawyer to sit opposite a table for, you know, two or three hours while documents go back and forth and all of that. I mean, the sheer cost of that seems to me to be much higher than what an escrow company would would typically uh you know, would typically charge. So, I'm I'm curious to know your thoughts on on those distinctions. I agree. I think
7:18 um there's there's definitely two lines of thoughts. Of course, it's always great to have an attorney involved because you're, you know, whatever the party is that your best interest is being looked out for on a legal aspect. Um, the reality, especially here in Southern California, we're a very latigious bunch of people, I guess, is the best way to put it, bringing attorneys in is definitely a lot. the the documents that we have now and I would say even kind of fundamentally throughout the country are all very standardized based off organizations like the California
7:54 Association of Realtors and other realtor organizations that really a lot of the the need for an attorney isn't there to actually be present and be the one processing it. It's never, of course, a bad idea to have an attorney look out for what you're doing because then you know your needs are met. But to bring in real estate agents, attorneys all together and not every transaction is smooth. Not every transaction buyer and seller get along. So throwing them in ultimately a cage match at the end where nobody has
8:31 to sign if somebody doesn't like the way somebody looked at them doesn't seem very practical. We also here in Southern California are super strict with privacy policy. I'm very careful with my communication. It's very easy for even just a wrong person to be on an email. So to have people in the room if something starts getting disclosed that is not relevant to one party, it could potentially be an issue. So for that I like it separate but also everybody has real lives. Like to tell you that you need to come into my office in Beverly Hills in California, you know, SoCal
9:06 where we have huge traffic, it could be two hours for somebody to get here, that's just not necessarily realistic for the climate that we live in anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I your description of a closing is a cage match. I mean it I think that's that's very very very apt, right? and and it says I I I would love to see the stat statistics on uh how many face-toface clo closings actually close versus, you know, fall apart at that point because now everybody's in the room and and you know, kind of the pressure is on, right?
9:42 um somebody wants that $300, you know, for the steps that somebody didn't agree to or something, you know, it can if and if you're not signing, you're not signing. To to have all of that at the end seems like an easy way to create problems at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. For sure. So now let's let's focus down onto the specifics of an escrow where the property is being sold as a result of a probate. Right? So um I'm I'm a
10:18 professional fiduciary. Um I one of the estates I'm handling the essentially the only asset is a single family residence in Tarzan as I recall. So, you know, the house, you know, goes through the the marketing process. Okay, we've got a buyer and now, you know, and and we opened up the escrow, um, you know, with with you, with Granite. So, what are the aspects of that that that are different than just kind of a regular, you know, sale and purchase of of a a home, you
10:53 know, just by, you know, typical home seller and buyer. Yeah. So, one, um, the first thing is signing authority. Like, I can't believe how many people open escros and don't give me documents to show who's the signing authority. I actually think opening escrow starts before the contract is written. I'd like to say the opening of an escrow starts when a listing is taken. That's when we really should be checking signing authority. Um, because sometimes people think they have authority that don't. And I've had escros actually open up where it turns out it's a probate because somebody had a power of attorney
11:28 of somebody who's deceased and it just doesn't work that way. So it really happens at the listing with an agent knowing what kind of transaction we really have. Sometimes people are very adept to knowing what they've got. Sometimes we work with people who are great and give you the heads up before, but sometimes that's not necessarily the case. So I think at listing we need to get title. We need to see what's affecting the title. We need to see, you know, is there an extra person on title who's deceased? And is that an easy cleanup or is that something where we're going to potentially have a probate issue? Um once we know it's a probate
12:04 issue, we definitely want the documents that show the authority of who's signing. And we definitely need to know um with auditing the contract whether we have something that needs a court confirmation or if the person signing has full authority because that really changes the dynamics. It's almost like you get a fork in the road and you have two different ways to process your escrow. And if you need court confirmation, it's a much different process and a much longer turn time. And there's actually a lot of disclosures that the buyer and the buyer's agent really need to kind of understand that process because it's not just because you sign a contract doesn't mean you're
12:39 going to be the end buyer if a court confirmation is needed. So, there's a lot that goes into that. Um, so knowing the real kind of probate that we've got, if we've got full authority, it's it's actually reasonably similar to a regular transaction, um, except for disclosure sake. If somebody hasn't lived on the property, they can't properly disclose things that they don't know anything about. Like you, as an example, when you're the signer on a transaction, you don't know the status of the property. you know, it's a lot of times something you've never seen and I very rarely see a
13:16 property. So, it's it's really different on how we navigate those. Luckily, in Southern California, CAR, the California Association of Realtors, has done a good job with some disclosure documents and what's needed if it's a probate or it's a trust and what isn't because those things just aren't available. So, let's kind of go through these one by one. you mentioned that um signing authority is is a much more significant issue for a probate. So specifically, what are you looking to get in order to
13:51 know that the person let's say the person who's selling the property is in fact uh authorized to do so. Um and and typically from whom are you looking to get you know those documents? Absolutely. So I in a perfect world would love when we have a a file where a listing agreement has been signed. I would love the letters of administration because those tell me the kind of transaction that we have meaning you know is it limited authority where we need to go to court to confirm the sale
14:27 or is it full authority. It also lets me know, is this a temporary administration? Because sometimes they're temporary for a certain point while they wait for a more permanent administrator to be assigned. So, it lets me know who we have. I know who the signer is going to be. It allows me to reach out and request any items that we're going to happen to need based off that. and making sure that I have contact information generally with not just the administrator, but if I should be communicating with legal counsel. Sometimes I don't communicate with legal counsel, sometimes I do. It's always
15:03 good to know that because we don't want to rack up bills for people if that's not the want or wish of the administrator. And so, and correct me if I'm wrong, are are you saying that um the the listing agent, the listing real estate agent hopefully would pro provide you with kind of a a listing package that would include letters of administration or letters of special administration or whatever it whatever it is, you know, gives the authority of the individual to to act on behalf of the the estate. Is
15:38 that what is that where you're that's that's preferable. Um and the agents that I work with that do a lot of business that's generally what they do is they give me the letters or they give me the information for the administrator so I can reach out and request those copies. Okay? You know we generally as a title aspect will need the original letters of administration for recording. So, it's something we definitely want to get quickly because a lot of people love to send a digital copy and think that that's going to be enough, but we technically do need to record those letters. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Don't
16:13 want to have to hunt those down at the end. Right. Right. And and you don't I I presumably you're you also don't want to have to be, you know, downloading documents from the court's website and and you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. No. And actually, we on a on a from an escro standpoint, we do not. Sometimes title will look up a court case. They have a different kind of access than we have and they will look up a court case if there's additional information that's needed. But but again here in California, title and escrow are separate or at least in Southern California. Northern California is a bit more together. Um so title would
16:48 definitely handle that if documents were needed. But I've got a checklist where I'm asking for all those things and I'm calendaring them because we just don't want a last minute problem and that's what we're trying to avoid. Okay. So really it really starts with making sure that and and it's interesting I will say I was involved in another situation. This was a trust situation where um there were two co-rustees and the listing agent just took it for granted that one one co-rustee could
17:24 list the property for sale and and that was sufficient. and the the property got all the way to the point where um there was a a an offer and and it wasn't until that point that the um agent I don't know either realized or thought she needed to contact the other co-rustee to say hey I need you to sign this you know this sales contract and the co-rustee basically said I didn't even know the house was listed you know so signing authority is so important
17:59 because it can really mess up where we are in a transaction and if we're talking about the whole transaction, which I see, it may not necessarily affect the listing agent so much, but what if the buyer locked the rate? What if that other trustee is in another country? There's a lot that comes to that. So knowing who your parties are, your true parties, you know, I have a commercial transaction that I just received in and the first thing I did with auditing is, "Can I have your entity documents?" And they're like, "We'll give those to you later." Oh, I don't like that answer. I just want to make sure that what I have is right because just because it's what
18:35 you told me, you know, not only could I have questions, but the title company could, too. And then we've got everything drafted incorrectly. Right. Okay. We're going to take a sponsor break. We'll be right back. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're
19:11 your trusted partner through every step. Magnum Properties, Inc. Turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213264396 or visit magnumprops.com. So this is Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm the host Kevin Bemel and my guest is Charity Score who is an escrow officer with Granite Escrow in Beverly Hills. and and Charity and I have been talking about the special considerations in
19:48 escrow relating to a property being sold as a result of a probate. So we were just talking about the need to make sure that the people who with whom she charity is dealing in fact have the authority uh you know to to actually you know uh sign documents to sell the property etc. So then, so Charity, you've mentioned a couple of times here, um, full authority versus limited authority and and confirmation of sale. Um, talk if you would about, um, you know, well, actually, before we get to
20:24 to that part, um, talk about the the differences in disclosures. uh and and I know you and I are are working on one that is it seems on the on the one hand so trivial but it's it it just you know it's a reality of dealing with the transaction. So you know there's this is a this is a real uh it's a it's truly an issue for uh you know properties being sold out of probate and and one that can frankly uh consume a lot of extra time and and in in the case of the situation we have legal fees. So yeah, talk with you what
21:00 about the the disclosure side of things. So from an escro standpoint, there's very few disclosures that act that I actually require. Luckily, the agent works on most of those things, but we do have instances where there are mandatory city reports andor city inspections and those as a probate can can definitely come into an issue. So within the city of Los Angeles, there is a city report where there is a declaration under penalty of perjury that needs to be answered. And it's asking questions like, is the house retrofitted? Are there security cameras, lights and locks, low flush,
21:38 things like that. But one of the things is protected trees. And most people, even who are homeowners, I don't know what trees are protected. like this is something I have to facilitate, but I don't actually know what the protected trees are. And the document doesn't tell you. It just says protected trees. So, you need to know what that is. Um, like I said, most homeowners don't. So, how is an administrator supposed to? And they're signing this under penalty of perjury and potentially putting the estate at a risk if something is incorrect. Now, it's my understanding there are no 593 police that go out and check it, but
22:13 still there is a fiduciary responsibility to make sure that the information you're providing and requesting is correct. So, this is kind of a newer requirement that we have in the city of Los Angeles. And so what we ended up having to do is have our local retrofits come up with a solution for us because they go and doublech checkck all the retrofit requirements for the city, but they are not arborists and don't have the ability to give that info. Nor did they even know that the application for the city report changed. So I was able to reach out to one of them. They now are contracting with an arborist so they
22:49 can handle that if it's needed. And I've had a couple requests and at one point it's like I just don't know anybody. So when you don't know anybody, you just find somebody. And now luckily it's a service, but it's a service that takes time. There's now another inspection that's needed. If somebody doesn't know the trees, you know, you have to get somebody on that property, which isn't always easy. And that's just city of Los Angeles, but we have lots of properties or lots of cities locally that require city inspections to make sure that all the work that on the property is permitted. And we know that a lot of
23:24 times people don't always get the right permits that they need. So when the city is coming to do an inspection, then that opens up another can of worms with what happens with work that needs to be fixed, what was disclosed in the contract, you know, what do people know? And now that it isn't disclosed, what happens at this point with where we go? And it's just something that takes time. Again, we need to make sure that there's access. There isn't always access. Mhm. We're not talking about a seller who lives on the property and can just arrange an inspection and open up their
23:59 front door. That's not the case in these transactions. So, that's a a huge extra step that needs to be handled and isn't always easy and a lot of times probate houses have not always had the work done that is needed. A lot of them do, but sometimes they don't. Right. Right. one and one of the things um that unfortunately has become more common over the last few years uh and I I I've learned this through uh my friend Bill Gross who's a real estate agent who's pro who specializes in probate is the
24:34 the number of of homes that they have someone living there who has no legal right to be there. They may be a squatter or they may be someone who was somehow connected to the family or to the deedent but isn't a legal heir and and they and and they don't permit uh you know people to come onto the property or they they make threats of what'll happen if somebody does right that becomes that's a complication with which you know we're we're dealing with as well. Yes. Um and and um so um one of the and and just going back to your
25:10 example about the LA um the LA um disclosure requirement and and correct me correct me if I'm wrong about this. Some of them some of the disclosures that the seller is required to make can be waved by the buyer but others can't. It it it's not that the disclosure can be waved. It's the responsibility if work needs to be done and most of that has to do with retrofit. So the city of Los Los Angeles has retrofit requirement for low flush toilets and fl
25:45 and showerheads. They have a requirement for a certain kind of impact glazing on sliding glass doors. Specific kind of bars um that are in over the windows to have a certain kind of locking mechanism. And there's um also there's gas shut off. So if those things are not in compliance, the buyer through the application and through the contract can accept the responsibility for that. Okay. The disclosure of trees is not something the buyer can accept though. It is a disclosure that the seller is required to make and that is a new
26:21 requirement within the last year or two. It's they recently changed that application to make it mandatory for all protected trees. Before it was just oak trees and now it's all protected trees. Interesting. Interesting. And I don't know what's protected and what's not. Yeah. Yeah. I don't I I don't either. And in fact, I tried to do a I not tried I did a little research on it and I could not get a clear answer. Yeah. About that. So um and it is you know and I I wanted to sort of put a a period on a on a on a point you made and that is um whether someone is a professional
26:56 fiduciary like me or whether it's say a family member who has been uh appointed to administer an estate. everyone who's administering administrating an estate is acting in a fiduciary uh capacity and to um sign a document under penalty of perjury that one knows or does not know something yeah to my mind would clearly be a breach of that fiduciary responsibility and someone who would do that I think has sort of ipso facto demonstrated they really should not be
27:32 in this role right And and so um you know I I've talked to people about this quite a bit since the issue came up and and some people kind of you know oh touch touch you know you know that they roll the eyes kind of thing. It's like but uh you know this this is the responsibility that that an administrator carries. Um, and why would you want someone who would be cavalier with that any more than you would want, you know, an escrow agent who might who would be cavalier about the position of neutrality they're required to maintain?
28:09 It's it's hard because 99.9% of the times it's not going to be a problem. But what happens if there is an issue where there are trees that shouldn't be there, the buyer takes on an expense postc closing and decides they want to sue? It can happen. You just you can't guarantee what anybody's going to do when the problem arises later. Well, too, and and I think that if a home is being sold with the idea that the current, you know, um house is going to be knocked down and they're going to rebuild, if there are protected trees on the site, so then can they be moved? Uh
28:47 can they be torn out? And and if that were to disrupt the redevelopment plans of the property um and it wasn't properly disclosed, I I think the the buyer would be justified in you know taking umbrage about that. Absolutely. And I mean anybody can sue for anything you know the reality but why especially if there's a means to an end to fix the problem. It was as easy as calling a retrofit saying, "Hey, this requirement has changed. Do you know anybody? This would be an extra service
29:23 that you guys could provide." Right? You don't even know about being able to provide an extra service if you don't know it's there. And the retrofits are not the ones who order the report. So, they didn't even have they weren't even aware that the application requirement and language had changed. So all around it provides an extra service not just for our probate clients but for any client who doesn't necessarily know what the protected trees are. Right. Right. I I would imagine to you know real estate agents as well anyone involved in these transactions. Right. So, so let's let's let's um move move on to then what I I mentioned a few minutes ago and that is
30:00 this idea of uh a you know partial authority versus full authority where um the sale of of real estate um could require court confirmation. talk to us about that and and how that potentially impacts a sale and and and how that um impacts, you know, what what you're doing um in in handling the escrow of the transaction. Absolutely. So, from an escrow standpoint, my my number one goal is for us to close our transactions on time. So, it's very important for me to keep a calendar of
30:36 where we are on dates and when things need to happen that have to happen. monitoring city reports, contingency dates, close of escrow dates. But before we can do things like close the escrow, we need loan documents. We need other things. And those also have dates and timelines. So, we're really organizing not just one person's timeline, but the timelines of the lender, of the buyer, of the seller, people on vacation, when people can sign, when they can't. And when we're dealing with an administrator with full authority, it's much easier
31:12 because our close of escrow date can be our close of escrow date and we're not depending on other performances from outside parties of our transaction. However, when we have a situation where we have a limited authority, what that requires is a court confirmation. Court confirmation requires filing of documents. It requires of obtaining a court date. And right now the courts are so busy requesting a court date is not something where you see it next week. We're looking 3 to six weeks at times depending on the jurisdiction of the
31:49 case, depending on particulars of the case. Then after there's a court confirmation, documents need to be filed by the attorney for us to actually get that original court order. the way or order of confirmation. The way the contract is written on a probate contract within car is once escrow is in receipt of that original order confirming sale, generally people have about 10 days to close. But I have seen times where I get that order confirming sale within a few days and I've seen times where it takes me two weeks. So if we're talking about an allcash transaction, we've got a little bit more
32:25 wiggle room. we can move those dates based off when we receive court confirm or when the the court date is. We can move those dates. But if we're talking about a file where the buyer has a lender, we're then dealing with rate lock issues with that lender. So, the communication is a lot extra in making sure they're not locking their rate too early or too late and knowing and being really on top of what does a transaction really look like as well as until that court sale date. our transaction is really still kind of a tentative
33:01 transaction because at that court date it doesn't not doesn't necessarily mean our end buyer is going to be the same person who's written a contract depending on how that court date goes. And I think a lot of people go into it not knowing that. And I think that that's something that's really important to educate especially people who are representing buyers so they have a realistic expectation for their buyer and what an escro really looks like when we have a court date. Right. Right. Um and in again correct me if I'm wrong. My
33:36 understanding is if there is an overbid situation at a court confirmation hearing, in essence, the over bidder takes over the position of the previous buyer. It's almost as if the contract is assigned to them as opposed to there's a whole, you know, brand new contract uh written and and in essence the the there's a noation of of the previous contract with the with the new one. So um talk if you would about that process
34:11 in escrow where you know in essence um the new buyer is sort of taking over the position of the of the previous buyer. How does that affect you know all the documents that have been previously signed and and the whole process that's gone on before that? So, the court overbid process is probably the most confusing process because the court overbid form actually only says purchase price and property. It doesn't ask any other questions. So, does the new buyer
34:46 or the new bidder even know the contract? Are they allowed to see the contract? Because we're talking privacy issues where this buyer has written a contract. So, one of the questions I ask when we have a court confirmation and we have an overbid process is what documents do we have? Because the only thing ever provided to me is the overbid sheet that's been approved by the the court. Um, I work with agents who actually have like an overbid checklist where they mark what the terms of the original contract were with who's paying what
35:22 things. But if you're actually talking about the over bid instruction being your contract, it nowhere on the form does it say that that over bidder is taking over the prior contract, nor do they even necessarily know the terms of the prior contract. They are actually just bidding on a purchase price of a property. So, it can definitely be a bone of contention with what really are the terms and once there's a court confirmation and there is an over bid. That's of course our first question if we don't receive the right documents or when I say the right documents, if we don't receive any clarity documents that go with that over bid sheet with what's
35:57 happening. I work with some agents that have some really great overbid forms though that basically go into all the details that are all the key points that are in a car contract. When we have an overbid situation, that overbid sheet is our technical contract. And then my escro instructions become the remainder of the contract with who's paying what, who's responsible for what. My escro instructions become a lot more of the meat and potatoes at that point. But it is definitely a situation where if somebody goes into an overbid and they don't know what they're doing, there can be room for mis
36:32 misunderstanding and miscommunication. very much so. Okay, we're going to take another sponsor break and come right back and pick up on that same subject. Perfect. Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration, featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Bralet, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you
37:07 quickly find the clearest, most practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time searching. Okay. So, we were just uh my my guest on Trust and Estates Weekly is Charity Score of Granite Escrow, and we were just talking about what happens when there's a court confirmation of a sale and there's an over bid uh and and especially with someone who is
37:42 inexperienced may not understand what the overall terms of that transaction are. And so, uh, you know, Charity was was talking about that and you you mentioned that, uh, you work with, uh, some real estate agents who have really good overbid checklists. Uh, it I is this something that that they've created? Is this a standard, you know, California Association of Realtor form? Where does that come from? and and you know, if if you could kind of, you know, wave your magic wand um to, you know,
38:20 make that process better, what would you like to see um agents, real estate agents, you know, who are representing buyers in court confirmations, what how would you like to see them handle that whole part of the process? Yeah, that's that's interesting. I think um one this checklist, the overbid checklist that we have is actually a listing agent who does a lot of probate. That's her document and she puts on there all the terms that were in the original contract. So when the over bidder comes in, they know what the terms are. They know what they're accepting when they accept it. Who's paying transfer taxes?
38:57 Who's paying, you know, all the standard closing costs? Are there any other disclosures? anything that's equivalent to what has already been accepted. So in essence, they are taking over those same terms without seeing that contract again due to privacy policy. You know, they can't see what another person has bid. Um, I think I'm surprised that car doesn't actually have some sort of addendum or that the court doesn't have an addendum with the overbid sheet that's more than just the purchase price because there's so much that goes into a transaction
39:33 that is more than the purchase price. commissions, especially with the new NAR settlements where it's not always the seller's responsibility paying commissions. Clarifying those terms is just really important to have a successful transaction. I would love to see Carr or the court either modify the overbid sheet so it has the the normal details that any real sale has or have car come out with an overbid addendum that would you know encompass the things that are really really important. Gotcha. And you you've referred to this
40:08 uh a number of times the the privacy between um you know parties to a contract and in law it's called privity right there's a a privateness of what's called privity in in in between parties to a contract and uh look I'm not sure it's as strict as HIPPA uh you know on the medical side but it but it is it's a real um requirement of contracting parties and of, you know, a a violation of privity uh could potentially be actionable
40:43 um by either a party to the contract or someone representing a party to the contract. So, you know, especially for um the the the non- lawyers out there, this is not something that can be cavalerely treated. It has to actually be treated very very carefully, especially some contracts like on one of the new buyer broker agreements when a buyer um is is asking for the seller pay commissions, there's a spot on it where it's marked the buyer does not have the money to pay this commission. I mean, while that seems like such a minor thing
41:18 that's hidden in a document that you don't normally see, that could be upsetting to a buyer if their contract gets out to somebody else who overbid that property. I certainly don't want that happening on my watch where somebody can come back to me and say that I've released private information. I take that very seriously. But it's it's something that needs to be clarified. That way correct information goes to who it needs to go to and everybody else's information stays private. And and you know another point that you raised that is so interesting is one would think that the courts would you
41:53 know have developed a more sophisticated process for this. It's it's I mean if you look at the when I started uh in in the real estate business back in the um early 1980s I mean the standard C contract I think was like two letter size pages long you know and it pretty much was you know selling price whether you're going to get a loan and you know a couple of disclosures and that was it and now I think the the standard you know C agree agreement is what 20 legalsized pages or something.
42:31 It shows you uh not just how much more complex these transactions are, but also how much more seriously people take them as the value of of of even just a you know regular single family residence in California has has increased. So I'm I'm it's a lot of money. It's Right. So, I'm curious, ha, have you seen the same kind of um increase in in documentation and clarity of documentation on the escrow side that we've seen on the real estate
43:06 contract side? Yeah, there there definitely is. There's lots of disclosures and it's not just the contract that's changed, but what is required of escrow has changed a lot, especially when it comes to taxation in needing to have taxes or tax documents in place for foreign persons federally and state for state required withholdings. There's a lot more documentation in place. So, not only do we need to process those documents that go to those regulatory agencies, but then we have to alo process all the disclosures where, hey, this information
43:42 needs to be disclosed to these parties and explaining to these parties what these documents really mean. There's so much more with affiliated business disclosures now that need to be done. You know, a onepage escort instruction, our escro instruction with our general provisions, I believe, is nine pages now. So you know are all these disclosures are come from litigation and that litigation doesn't just hit the real estate agents it hits the title companies it hits the escro companies you know so the amount of disclosure for everybody kind of is a CYA has become
44:17 really huge and as much as most of it not that it doesn't mean anything but it's become very very boilerplate it's really important to know what it means Even on an honest I I can't tell you. I've had agents who asked me about my escro instructions and I told them the contract was a joint escro instruction and they told me they'd never heard of that. I'm like, well, you're you're drafting the document though. You should know the name. So, we we do things just because this is what we do. This is the document that we use. Not always with a why or have you read your full document
44:53 to know what that really means? I mean, it's it's a great point. I've I mentioned my friend Bill Gross um once before. Um I was listening in on Bill while he was talking to a new agent um just just a few months ago and he was saying the first thing you need to do now that you have your license is really read the forms in depth that you're going to be working with. That's perhaps the most important tool in your kit is to understand those forms so you can properly advise, you know, prospective
45:28 clients or clients and and really understand a transaction. So, I don't think agents realize under California contract law, the writer of the contract is the one who's required to to be knowledgeable about what you're writing. So, a buyer is the one who makes an offer. So, if you as a buyer's agent are writing a contract and you miss details, that falls on your side. I had a situation once where the the buyer's agent was their dad who did maybe one deal every couple of years and wrote in
46:04 an early release um but didn't realize that there was that that meant that their money was being released even though that was written in and accepted it. and you you wrote in for that and you don't know what that means. Luckily, it's your child's transaction. So, if something really went wrong, you would have had to take it up at Thanksgiving dinner more than a court case. But still, it is very important to know what documents you're drafting and what's in them. For sure. So another question and this doesn't
46:40 necessarily necessarily relate just to probate but perhaps you can shed some light on the use of e-signing with respect to escrow because my experience is a number of escrow companies just seem well just the the contracting in general has gone to e-signing over the last few years. It's so much more convenient. Again, it it it it doesn't require multiple counterparts the way we used to do it. Um, you know, parties don't have to show up in person anywhere. So, it's it's very very
47:16 convenient. But I've noticed that there are some escrow companies that are have been very resistant to adopting this this new technology. So talk for a a a couple of minutes if you would about how you see e-signing within the escrow world uh you know kind of kind of in general and and if there are aspects of it specific to to probate that as well. So I think when we talk e-signing and people wanting hard copy signed I think
47:51 that that's really more of a personal preference of escrow officer. I think we have three kinds of escro officers in this world now. We have people who have been doing it a zillion years and their way is the way because that's the way that they've always done it. And I get that. Um, that's not a very warm and fuzzy customer service related thing. California law allows digital signing. So to say no, we don't seems not not very serviceoriented. Mhm. We
48:27 have people who do eign kind of depends. We have some people who will only do e-ign. I think it really ends up being what best suits the customer. There's legally there's no reason not to digitally e-sign documents. Of course, there is a cost to it. You know, you can't use these digital signing services for free. And I think maybe some smaller companies maybe don't want to carry that cost. Um I think for as an escro for productivity, why would you not send out what you send out? You don't have to be
49:02 in front of people. But I can see I remember one time I got a a company handbook digitally signed and it's like, "Oh, whoa. What am I just signing off on?" Um, so I think what I do from a customer service side for clients is email them a copy of what I've uploaded. That way they can take a quick look at it before the prompts just tell you to move on to the next thing because you could accidentally sign something that you didn't. I mean, it's the same with initials, though. If you're going through a contract, you could initial something without reading it. I think it's important to give people the options that they need. There are still some clients who don't want to do things
49:38 digitally and they shouldn't be made to. Um, and there are some people who want to do it digitally and they should be allowed to. Um, legally there's nothing against being able to do that. So, it's well within the law and but I do think really it more kind of depends on the escrow officer's wants in how they process their files. Gotcha. Uh, and you bring up a good point about because what while I frankly prefer to be able to e-sign documents, they just go from, you know, initial point to signing point or
50:13 whatever. And you don't have and so I I find I have to scroll back to read what it is I'm signing and and so it it is very convenient to have the document. I can read through it first, see if there's any questions that I have before I get into the, you know, into the e-signing. that that's that's a great sort of best practice. It's also really important because especially in our seller packages, it's kind of invasive with the information we need. Payoffs, HOA, tax information, social security numbers, asking the questions, how secure is this? Making sure you have all
50:49 the information. That way, as you're doing it, you know, you can do it all rather than stop. Oh, I have to go find this. It's just finding the most convenient way to use it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it is so much more convenient and faster and nobody has to be on somebody else's schedule. You can really do it when it's your schedule. Yeah. Yeah. And and I I know for me too, it's much more convenient to like take a chunk of time out of my day when I'm going to go through all the documents can be focused on them rather than, you know, oh, one comes in and break away and refocus and all of that. So, and who needs all those extra alerts in your
51:24 email, too? Yes, indeed. Indeed. So, I you know, I did I I meant to um tell you about this in advance and I forgot, but so I'll spring this on you um and and and maybe throw you a bit of a curveball, but it's not a test, is it? No, no, no, no, not at all. Not at all. I'm just curious. Do you have like one or two uh stories from, you know, handling escros of properties being sold out of probate that, you know, you would share with with the viewers? um that that you know will will kind of illustrate uh you know
52:01 some of the things that we've been talking about. Yeah. I have one horror story that is my favorite one to tell. We had a transaction where um there was a contract that was written. It was court confirmation that was required. Um we get to court confirmation and um or first there was the NOPA and the NOPA was challenged. The NOPA is the notice of proposed actions. one of the beneficiaries challenged it which made it go to court confirmation because they challenged it. Court confirmation came and we get an overbid situation where it's one of the beneficiaries who
52:36 happened to challenge the the NOPA who wanted to be the new buyer. So, they became the new buyer. Our first original buyer ended up losing out on that transaction because they didn't go to the level that the other one went during that overbid process. We get through closing, the buyer can't close. they they don't have the ability to retain their loans for whatever the reason they can't close. This process went on and on with delays until finally they had to cancel. Um the way this agent wrote writes their contracts is um contingencies are removed at signing of
53:11 the contract which is very common in probate transactions. So the buyer removed their contingencies um at the signing of the contract as part of the court confirmation over bid process. that's one of their documents. Um, and then they wanted their deposit back. And so it became a fight, but that fight as a real estate transaction is not part of the probate transaction. It had to go to a separate court under separate rules because that's a contract issue, not a probate issue. Right? But she's still
53:46 one of the beneficiaries. She was one of the beneficiaries of the estate. So in the end that deposit she would end up getting it it back. I mean there's more than one beneficiary but in the end the court ordered that the deposit was part of the estate. It went to the estate. Then the we had a new process of a new contract, a new court confirmation before we closed the transaction. Wow. It was fun as I still get calls from that lady too. So when am I going to get my deposit back? cuz she ended up getting part of the deposit back. Uhhuh. And it's like your check cashed on this
54:22 day. Yeah. And and did you have to put the deposit into interpleer or or No. So the the the um probate court just ordered you to turn it over to the administrator or No, the probate the the there was a lawsuit filed from the beneficiary to the estate to get her deposit back. It actually went to court. And I believe they ended up settling in court. Oh. Or like a 5050 split. But yeah, but then you can't move on. Yeah. Until that
54:58 satisfied. We ended up getting it under contract again and we just had to wait until Yeah. It was It was just a mess. Yeah. I believe it. That's the problem. The the downfall with probate is it's emotional. It's somebody has lost a loved one, whether there's an administrator who's dealing with the emotions of beneficiaries, but unfortunately the loss of loved one brings out the worst side of family members. And there is so much bickering independently that has nothing to do with the actual probate process, but as an agent, you
55:33 need to be prepared for it. As a fiduciary, you have to be prepared for it. People do not act rational when one they have an opportunity to come into money or two when they're in a grieving process and they want grandma's china. It's really very interesting. I I mean and it is I think there's a third case where they see an opportunity to settle an old score, right? Something I interestingly enough just this morning I was appointed to administrate an estate. the ad the appointment process just of appointing an administrator has been going on for a
56:10 year. It's crazy. It's just it's crazy, you know, and and you know, look, the the courts are very busy in in Los Angeles, but this was this was not due to the courts being busy. You know, this particular judge, he runs a very efficient court. He knows what he's doing. You may know you may know to whom I'm referring. Um, it was just, you know, there were old scores to settle and uh and and they were all being brought out and and the laws of filing documentation and their turn times and weight times, they have to be adhered to
56:45 and it's a great way to throw a wrench in something just to make things more difficult. Absolutely. Absolutely. Grace and kindness. We all need grace and kindness. Little stuff. I agree with you 100%. Well, Charity, thank you so much for coming on uh Trust and Estates Weekly and talking about escrow. I I I've never had a you know, another escrow officer as a guest on the show. So, you're you're really providing a you know, very valuable input to to viewers and listeners because this this is most
57:20 estates in California, I think, end up having at least a house that needs to be sold. So at some point an estate is going through escrow and and and it it is a it's a difficult process even under the best of circumstances but you know when it's when a pro when it's a probate as well it just adds additional layers of complication. So bringing your expertise was was so valuable. I want to thank you for that. I'm glad to help. It was a lot of fun. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. So I'm going to have you if you don't mind sit tight for just a couple of minutes. I'm going to do a quick wrap up here and then we can talk offline. So, thank you very much for
57:57 joining us today. I know we've I saw we had some live viewers, which is which is always fun. I I hope you enjoy the show. If you have uh any questions, comments, you can always drop those into social media. And um this is this is those of you who watch the show, you know, this is the time I give the shameless plug for my guests because I do not have people on my show that I cannot personally uh vouch for. You will not find a better escrow officer, especially for probate in California, than Charity
58:34 Score. So I Charity is much too modest to say that herself. So I I will say it on her behalf. I will put Charity's contact information in the show notes if you uh would like to get in touch with her, especially if you want to, you know, bring her in escrow. Um I know she'll be uh happy to help you with that. Um but honestly, um I I've I've dealt with a number of escrow holders uh over the last u you know, couple of years and and you just will not find anyone better than Charity. So, um, I commend her to
59:11 you. Uh, real quickly then, wrapping up, tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time, Tuesday, is my show, Business Lessons from the Military. And you're probably expecting me to tell you what the topic is because I usually do. Oh, yes. Um, I'm going to be talking about the Battle of San Juan Hill. It's the 127th anniversary of the Charge of the Rough Riders up. Actually, it wasn't on San Juan Hill. So, you got to tune in to figure out find out what the real place they ran was. But we're going to talk about lessons that can be learned from
59:46 Teddy Roosevelt's uh famous battle San Juan Hill. And then on Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show, People Making Money, and I'm going to be talking about lifestyle creep. So, if you don't know what that is, um you may be experiencing it and and not realizing it. Um but it it can be insidious and can really harm your longtime uh financial well-being. And then on uh Thursday at 5:00 pm is my every other week show, Jiggers's Place. We're going
60:22 to sit back, have a cocktail, and talk about etiquette. Yes, you will hear the name Emily Post, one of my favorite authors. Uh, and and etiquette is not what uh someone I know once told me, a way for snoody upper class people to put lowerass people down. If that's what you think etiquette is about, you need to tune in. That is that is the opposite of what etiquette is all about. And then um finally a special edition of the Way to Wow shows on Friday, Independence Day, 10:00 a.m. Pacific time. We're going to
60:59 celebrate uh the Fourth of July together. So, lots of shows this week. I hope you'll tune in again. Uh Charity, one last thank you before we sign off. Really a treat to have you on the show. And as I I signing off, as I always do, Marie darling, you are my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.