0:00 Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want? Hello and welcome to business lessons from the military. I'm your host Kevin Bemmel and we are here uh every Tuesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about military history, doctrine, the leadership practices of great military leaders all by way of distilling lessons
0:37 from them that we can apply to our businesses and professional practices. So, I've been rereading um a series of books that that are really enjoyable. Um they're written by C.S. Forester um and they're they're about uh a um a British uh uh naval officer um named Horatio Hornblower. So, the books were written I I I want to say in the '30s and '40s if if memory serves. Uh '50s '50s and '60s and they
1:13 they talk about uh uh uh he's really a almost boy a teenager uh who uh because he he's living in England in the uh late 1700s uh at at at that time of his life he his parents have died, he has no prospects, no way to make a living and so he um gets an appointment as as a midshipman um and goes to sea and and becomes a naval officer in the 11 books um basically uh describe his career. It's a fictional character but um it's it's it's
1:50 there were you know, probably thousands of of uh Royal Navy Navy officers who had a similar career path. And uh, you know, for someone like me who was in the Navy, um, the books are are fantastic. They they all, you know, the action all takes place on, you know, wooden sailing ships, frigates, and ships of the line, and and all that sort of thing. And, uh, while I haven't gotten to the book, uh, that deals with piracy yet, there is there is, uh, one one of the books, one of the 11 books is uh, Horatio Hornblower dealing with
2:25 pirates. So, al- also happening around So, the the the way things worked in, uh, the Royal Navy, um, and actually all all, at least, Western navies, um, at that time, was if if if, let's say, you were the captain of a frigate, and you it was wartime, and you um, went to battle against an enemy's ship, and you won the battle, um, but you didn't sink the ship. Maybe you
3:00 dismasted the ship, and so it couldn't, uh, you know, it it couldn't maneuver any longer, and so then you boarded the ship, and you captured the crew, and you captured the ship. So, that ship was considered a prize, meaning that uh, the captain of the victorious ship would take a what was called a prize crew, a small number of people from his crew, put it on the captured ship, sail it back to uh, a port, in in the case of the British, it would have been to maybe
3:35 Portsmouth or something like that, and the ship would be sold, and the money from the sale of the ship and its contents would be was considered prize money, and a certain percentage went to the Admiralty, which is the group that runs Royal Navy. A certain percentage went to the captain of the ship that captured it. I think a quarter of of it went to that captain. And then another quarter was was divided among the other officers of the ship. And then
4:10 a small portion was divided among just the sort of rank and file sailors on the ship. And so there was an incentive to go and capture ships. Preferably without sinking them because then those captured ships could be sold as prizes. And and and you know, the money the money would would be you know most of the money would be given to the crew. And as well then the ship would be sometimes the ship would be taken into the Royal Navy. And so now the Royal Navy had another ship.
4:47 Without having to pay to build it, right? It was far less expensive to to dole out prize money than it was to build a ship. Especially if if you know, the materials to build a ship were in short supply. Whether it was wood, hemp, tar, all those things. And in and in fact one of the things that's talked about in the Hornblower novels is that the French Navy was they they built ships that were um particularly fast I think it was. And and
5:23 and so the the British liked to catch the French ships because British crews generally speaking were more capable than French crews. But French ships were in in a number of ways better than British ships. And so a British crew on a captured French ship was kind of was essentially the best of of both worlds. So, the the the the fact the fact of the matter was though, much of the British Navy, much of the
5:58 Royal Navy I should call it, uh wasn't necessarily able to just go chasing after enemy ships to try and catch them or or if if not catch them, sink them. Um they had to be on blockade duty, they had to be on transport duty, they had all of the duties of prosecuting a war. And so, a system was developed whereby the the sovereign and this in in in this time it was the king of England, I King George III, I believe. He would essentially hire
6:35 non-naval ships to go out and raid enemy commerce ships and even uh in some limited cases, enemy navy ships, very small ones like a sloop maybe or something like that. Um they wouldn't attack a frigate or a ship of the line, they would have been blown out of the water. And and these these uh sort of private uh ships were sort of like pirates. I'm and and
7:11 in fact, that's essentially what pirates did. Pirates would just they they'd go and they would they didn't have to be a war, they would just go attack another ship and try and capture it. Uh and and it it like like with prizes, in general, pirates didn't want to sink a ship because if they could catch the you know, if they could catch the ship and it it would still float. So, first of all, they might have caught a ship that's better than the one that they were on before. Second of all, they might be able to sell the ship for the money. Uh and third, they might create kind of a squadron of pirates, so they would have multiple ships and they could be
7:47 more effective in their in their raids. Um So, in between piracy and legitimate naval activity were these sort of private ships, if you will, called privateers. And um this this is this is a a book I got some time ago on privateers and pirates. You can you can tell by the way they group the two together that in fact privateers in in many ways operated like pirates. It's just the the main difference is
8:25 a privateer operated under what's what was known as a letter of marque and reprisal that was given to the captain of the privateering ship that essentially made their their raiding legal. Okay? So, they were essentially they were legal pirates. Privateers. And uh often times um wealthy uh men would put up the money for a fast maneuverable ship
9:04 that would then get letters of marque and reprisal from King George and they would go out and raid commerce. Now, because the ships were generally smaller and and nowhere nearly as well armed as as a frigate or uh even more so a ship of the line, you might have a double or triple decker ship, you know, and and when we say double or triple decker, what we mean is there were three decks of cannons basically on each side of the ship, right? So, they generally speaking raided enemy
9:39 commerce. So, for example, uh Spain in this time period was bringing gold and silver and and and other materials back from the New World. So, privateers would uh attack these Spanish ships. Um and they would do their best to to catch the ship and that way um they would be able to sell the ship and its gold, its silver, or maybe it had cotton um or or some other uh raw material,
10:14 they would sell them and the crew of the privateer would divide up the money that was that was received for having when when that when the particular ship and its contents were sold. And and so in in this way, the the King George was able to expand his naval power without having to go to the expense of building a ship, uh victualing out a ship, meaning putting food on it and all of that and all the and putting on all the other
10:50 ship stores that were necessary, paying the crew. He didn't have to pay the crew, right? So, privateers were they were like commission sales people essentially. They only got paid if they caught a ship and and turned around and sold it. So, there was no overhead to the crown by giving out these letters of marque and reprisal to privateers um other than I guess, you know, the cost of writing out on a parchment, you know, the the letters of marque. And and so, it extended their
11:25 extended King George's naval power um at like I said, essentially no cost. So, it's it's an interesting business model, and you you can kind of see it today in in in light sorry in uh commissioned sales people. It's it's it's similar to that. Okay, and and and you know, aside from you know, talking about privateers a little bit and and you know, you can see the the the the uniforms there. They were they were you know, not like the standardized uniforms
12:01 of the Navy. They were sort of you know, whatever they could find or wear. Uh let's see. Let me find another Okay, so here's here's a picture for example. Now, this is an actual pirate. This is Jean Lafitte at the Battle of New Orleans in 1815. Um if you if you saw my my show on the Battle of New Orleans, the war had already ended when the Battle of New Orleans was fought. Um but nonetheless, Jean Lafitte, the famous pirate, was there. So, here's this picture from the front.
12:36 They're boarding a ship. These are these are you know, privateers. You can tell by you know, the sort of sombrero that one of them is wearing. He's got a hatchet. The other one's got his cutlass. Um and and one of them has a pistol. Um and uh Okay, so and here here's uh Okay, this is uh the bottom picture is Levi Barlow's privateers. Again, you can see they sort of wore what they wore and they're looking to you know, catch this this ship. Right? So, those those are those were the privateers.
13:11 And I um I came up with seven lessons that we can learn from privateers that we that might apply to our our business Our our businesses and practices. So, so first of all, uh number one is incentive-driven performance. So, one thing about um the privateers was that their the their financial incentives aligned with King George III's goals.
13:51 And and and and so when when in financial incentives and our business goals align, then, you know, people are more apt to pursue our uh goals that or pursue activities that um benefit our businesses. I'm I'm By the way, I'm using King George just because of of uh my reference to the Horatio uh Horatio Hornblower novels, but um the King of of France appointed privateers, um the the King of Spain. I mean, most European countries had privateers. Um I think the United States of America and
14:27 its uh in the early days of the Republic had some privateers as well. Um but I'm just using King George to sort of personify um the the the the, you know, sovereign. Um so um privateers were motivated to capture ships, um which which helped out the the Royal Navy at the Royal Navy's efforts, um because they would That's how they would get paid, right? So, it was a a sort of profit-sharing uh enterprise. And companies can do the
15:02 same thing. We see this in profit-sharing that companies um set up, profit-sharing plans, 401k plans where there's some kind of matching based on the prof- profitability of the company. Uh and I mentioned commission-based sales plans. All of these are designed to align uh the incentives um with the goals of the company. So, um And and and that's That that is um that also kind of goes with with point number two, which is performance-based
15:38 competition. So, open competition drives efficiency and results. So, um there It wasn't as if King George just appointed, you know, one privateer. He appointed many privateers. In fact, pretty much as many as um as as he could. There was no reason to limit the numbers. Um and so, when you have multiple privateers operating under letters of marque, so they had to be efficient, and they also
16:14 had to be pretty ruthless in pursuing um their goal. And in some cases, privateers worked together because it was in their best interest. They could go after a larger target by by working together, kind of swarming, you know, swarming a you know, a victim. Um and and and and and that made it also safer for them because most privateering vessels were not particularly strong, and so, even commerce even uh you know, commerce ships, trading ships, uh sometimes had
16:50 cannons on board, although they were usually fairly small. Um but, you know, if they happened to get a you know, fire off a couple of cannon shots and got lucky and dismasted the privateer, then they could escape. And of course, the privateer now could be dead in the water if they didn't have the ability to repair their mast, they were they could be in serious trouble. So, um the idea was to uh create competition among the privateers so that they would have an incentive to be to work as efficiently as possible.
17:25 And this is the case in modern business as well, right? Um competition really spurs the drive to be to to to learn how to do things better, more quickly, um less costly, all of these things. So, this is a a a postcard I got from a friend of mine. Um and that is uh he it's um his name is is Josh. And and um
18:02 Anodos Law. So, his his sort of slogan here is, "We help California California families settle trusts and estates twice as fast at half the cost with lower risk to the successor trustee." And his idea is through using a very systematized approach, etc., he can deliver a a better uh product than than other trustees out there. Now, he's focused on um smaller cases that can be
18:37 uh you know, more easily routinized in how they're administrated. Um but I you know, now and and I said I'm I'm friend I'm friends with with with Josh. Uh he was a guest on the show uh last year as a matter of fact. And uh you know, the idea is to expand his practice by beating the competition, um getting getting more efficient, etc., etc. If there were no competition, what would be the incentive to do that? Um you know, and and the answer is little if any, right? Um I know for me, one of the things I'm experimenting with
19:14 a lot is AI and and automation uh in my practice to reduce the time that I spend doing kind of administrative chores. So, I'm automating as much of that as possible. I spent about 30 or 40 minutes yesterday automating my system for keeping track of the last time I spoke to uh a particular individual who's part of my network. Uh for some for some reason it never occurred to me to try and automate it. Um, and it and it it took me a little
19:49 more time than I had hoped because um I I it kept not working and then I realized I I was I had made a fundamental error in translating what I learned from Chat GPT into the actual system I had built. Um, but the uh the um 30 or 40 minutes I took using AI to systematize keeping track of of of my contacts will I'll I'll save that amount of time in in a week, right? So, over the year, I'll save, you
20:27 know, 26 hours probably um by having uh automated this this one function. And what that does is it gives me more time to do more profitable functions, either devote more time to serving my clients or devote more time to marketing my business, right? So, and and why bother with that? Well, because if I don't do it, somebody will, right? And they'll get a competitive edge on me. Okay. Uh next is uh regulatory arbitrage and
21:05 legitimacy. So, um privateers operated in kind of a legal gray area. Um and and and in doing so, on the one hand, they got a competitive edge while essentially maintaining their legitimacy. So, um as I mentioned before, uh privateers were legalized pirates, okay? They were allowed to raid enemy ships without being considered criminals. So, this this gave them the, you know, by
21:40 having the letter letter letters of marque and reprisal, um that gave them the patina of um operating, you know, uh uh on behalf of the king. Um and at the same time, you know, they're you know, they were sort of left to their own devices in terms of methods. Now, generally speaking, um unlike pirates, privateers did not put entire crews to death. Um that wasn't necess- necessarily um you know, in their line. Um they typically did not uh maroon them either
22:16 the way pirates might. They just kind of locked them, you know, below decks um and sailed the ship to port and sold the ship and the the the, you know, the the crew of of the ship that was sold would be either um put in prison or they might be paroled um and and allowed to uh either stay in England or return to their country. It it it kind of depended on the circumstances. So, um so, the the the but to to operate in this kind of gray area, um while maintaining legitimacy, uh gave
22:51 privateers a a competitive edge. Now, counterpoint that with number four, which is um you know, just because it was legal, um doesn't always mean that the public looked at privateering as as being legitimate. So, uh, for uh, men who owned these commerce vessels, um, they for the most part looked at uh, privateers as no
23:28 better than pirates. Right? So, the fact that they carried letters of mark meant nothing to to the, you know, shipping magnates whose whose ships were being captured and and whose cargo was essentially being hijacked. Um, and they were, you know, they were losing, you know, the equivalent today of, you know, millions if not tens of millions of dollars. Um, and as well, privateering made their cost of insurance go up, as you can imagine, because, um, if you've got this whole group of people
24:03 out there whose only job is to capture commerce ships, well, so they were going to be successful and so that that would raise the cost of insurance. So, um, and and it was the case that some privateers were really no better than pirates, right? So, an individual privateer, he was really up to his own devices as to how he conducted his his business. So, uh, the, you know, the the letters of mark and reprisal and the appearance of legitimacy needed to be offset by how, you know, the larger
24:39 public viewed privateers, you know, with respect to ethical considerations and those sort of those sort of things. So, um, while it may seem like a good idea for a company to take a very aggressive business posture or maybe to kind of operate in the gray areas of the law. Yes, they're they're what they're doing is not illegal. On the other hand, it doesn't wouldn't, you know, be considered the most ethical thing. So, what does that mean for an organization's
25:16 long-term perception by the public, right? So, I know for me as a professional fiduciary, I have to be most concerned about my reputation because if I get a reputation for doing dodgy things, not only could that at some point result in the loss of my license, but it it would just cause people to not not want to hire me to administer a particular probate or or you know, be a trustee in
25:52 a particular trust. So, these two issues have to be balanced and the aggressive posture may work for your particular business. On the other hand, it may not work, you know, for a different business. So, these are these are the you know, the lessons of privateering are somewhat of a balancing act. Okay, number five. Agility and opportunism. So, the fact of the matter is as I'm as I've
26:27 mentioned already a couple of times, the privateering vessels were small, very agile ships. And as a result, they and all often times they they could go closer into shore because they had a shallower draft. So, they could go places where a frigate or a ship of the line could not because they were so big and had such a deep keel, etc. So, uh this made the private this in a way sort of protected the privateers from what otherwise would
27:02 have been a very unbalanced situation where, you know, going up against a frigate, they were just going to get blown out of the water. I mean and and a lot of the a lot of legitimate, you know, navy people really despised privateers in essence these the privateers were making a lot of money while essentially relying on the navy to protect them against you know, more formidable enemies, right? So,
27:38 um nonetheless, the the greater agility and and maneuverability of the privateers gave them a significant advantage over naval ships. And and and that's something too that we can look at uh in our businesses and professional practices. So, um you know, there's there's been a lot made over the last probably, you know, 20, 30, 40 years about the consolidation of various industries. So,
28:14 uh uh the entertainment industry has gone through tremendous consolidation. There used to be hundreds of television station owners. Now, there's uh I don't know what the exact number is, but it's it's far fewer. Most stations are owned by, I think, four or five uh station owners. Okay, that's different than the networks, by the way. um and there used to be uh you know, lots of sources of programming. Now, what's happening of late in the entertainment business is there's been kind of a
28:52 there's a trend starting of more and more media businesses who aren't connected with the large legacy companies, right? And so these smaller operations, they can be more nimble, they can they can produce programming in niches that the large media companies just can't afford to be involved in. My show is is an example of that. None of the major networks, none of the major media companies are going to produce a show on trusts and estates. There's not
29:29 a big enough audience for them to justify the cost of doing so, right? And so the technology that's available allows smaller and more agile players like me to enter the market in a way that larger players cannot. And and and I I I just use the media business as an example, but I think you'll you'll find this in a number of areas. The the law went through a big consolidation.
30:04 And now what I'm seeing is it seems like more and more lawyers are tired of working for a large law firm where they're there to just grind out the hours. And the the the you know, senior partners get the lion's share of of the revenue generated by the firm. And so they're they're going out on their own creating boutique firms where they can first of all receive the fruits of their labor. And second of all, they can conduct their their law firm in a way that
30:40 better conforms with their values. So, um and so for example, my my friend Cedric Collins, he has he has an office in Century City. Um you know, he he really loves having his own practice and and being able to work with clients that he feels really can use his help um rather than being part of the grind of a huge firm. Um and and there you know, it's it's it's a
31:15 delight to work with Cedric because he really loves what he does and he really cares about his clients. So, we we had a hearing this morning and while the results were disappointing disappointing, we got on the phone afterwards with the client or and and we talked we did a you know, a what's called a hot wash in the military talked about what happened and and and what steps we could take going forward. And and so that you know, that kind of you know, positive um way of of working together, I know is
31:51 important to me and it's it's it's important to Cedric as well and I think the client appreciated seeing that you know, that the two people she had chosen to help her with this particular matter had had that kind of attitude. So, you know, being a smaller more agile agile player can be a big advantage in business especially in the climate we have today where there's you know, in many businesses there's maybe two, three, four, five major organizations that control a lot of the
32:26 business and and yet there are people who don't feel they're well served by those companies and so they're looking for that know, a a or a provider um that that, you know, they feel better aligns with with their needs. Okay. Next is uh government contracts and public-private partnerships. So, uh while, you know, frankly, in general, I'm I'm not a big fan of having the government as as a partner. Um and and,
33:01 you know, I I I I I'm I'm I'm much more of a laissez-faire uh you know, individual when it comes to especially when it comes to business. Um there are times when public-private partnerships can be very fruitful. And privateering was certainly one of them. So, you know, as a taxpayer, it it certainly would make more sense to me to, you know, let uh to to, you know, to have privateers who don't, you know, require more tax money um to operate out there, uh you know, looking
33:39 to support um the the military objectives of of, you know, my my country. Um that that certainly works better for me because that that way, you know, um I'm not having to pay more money uh in in taxes. Now, unfortunately, what it would work today is probably they would get some sort of subsidy for the government to buy and outfit a privateer, but but setting that aside, uh you know, privateering um when it was practiced um primarily in the um 18th and and and early 19th
34:16 century, uh was a very efficient uh government-private sector partnership. Uh it worked well for for both, right? And uh you know, there are areas where these kinds of public private partnerships will have to exist. One of them is is in um the defense contractors. So, the federal government is not going to build uh jet aircraft and tanks and drones and
34:51 they're not going to sew uniforms and all these things. Um there was a time when the government uh did do kind of those things. So, uh for example, in the 19th century, there were uh essentially government uh firearm manufacturers. Um the government uh you know, kept herds of horses and bred horses, those kind of things. So, um but it it turned out that that um even those more sort of rudimentary, if you will,
35:26 government uh defense needs um were were often times better supplied through the government contracting with uh with a private party. Okay? And so, uh you know, there there are there are opportunities in working with the government to fill essential functions of the government and and the government can operate much more efficiently by contracting these services out rather than having them uh
36:02 you know, in house, so to speak, in government. So, um defense contracting is just one example, but you know, most of what the government buys, it does not make. Um it buys from other other from from private uh business. And so, um you know, it there may be an opportunity in your particular business to get some kind of government contract. or so to give you an example I was talking with my older sister Marla yesterday. She was coming back from a not a conference but a a program that a
36:37 friend of hers had asked her to to help with. And the program was helping people deal with grief. And her my sister's friend is looking for ways to expand the the program and I suggested well you know, maybe this program is more effective than the programs that are currently being used by the service branches in the military. And so if that were the case she might be able to get you know, a government contract either
37:12 to provide her program to military to service members or maybe a contract to train people in the services in in the various service branches to use to to use her program and and and so you know, I was just kind of brainstorming with my sister about that. So there are times when a public private partnership is appropriate and but it it it should be something like privateering where it's a win-win situation as opposed to just you know,
37:47 setting up something to just get a lot of money from the government but there's not there's there's little if any benefit to either citizens or taxpayers. Okay. And finally privateering it was a form of risk management and shared liability. So uh governments sovereigns issued letters of marque to to private to private ships captains basically and it reduced their naval costs as I mentioned.
38:23 While still while the government still benefited from the spoils of war as did the privateers themselves. And so in doing so um the government was in in in some ways sheltering itself from liability because if the privateer got sunk, well, that was the privateer's business. It had no impact on the government. So there was no liability on the part of the government. The letters of mark and mark and reprisal did not create like for example a a pension for widowers of privateers or for I should say widows of
38:59 privateers. Um and so um there was uh that helped governments sort of shelter themselves from some risk, okay, and in other ways share share the liabilities for these ventures. So um the same with our businesses today. You know, we can look for ways to manage our risk and share liability. One way is by contracting out um for services that we need rather than having those services in house. So so
39:35 for example contracting out bookkeeping um it is is a way of uh sort of sharing the liability and managing the risk. So presumably if you're hiring out your bookkeeping to a to a you know third party contractor, so that contractor is going to have some liability if they were let's say negligent in the preparation of your books, okay, or in the preparation of your tax return, those kind of things. So by by creating these kind of
40:12 partnerships, um we we can offload some of the risk onto others, um sharing those liabilities, while at the same time creating a mutually beneficial potential for profit. So, all of these are are lessons that we can learn from privateers. Uh and uh I don't know, maybe we maybe we need to bring them back. Um interesting uh to note that um the age of piracy is not hasn't has not ended by any stretch of the imagination. I know um
40:47 when I was deployed um back in 2011, um the crew of of of of my ship was incensed when we weren't allowed to go chase pirates um because that is still a central function of the United States Navy. Uh not in the Caribbean, really, um and not in the Mediterranean, which used to be the two areas where the United States Navy uh chased pirates most often. Now, it's more Indian Ocean and around uh um Eastern Africa. Um that that that was where we had an opportunity to go chase pirates, but
41:23 weren't allowed to do so. Um so, um I think, you know, it's it's it's interesting to examine the way the various ways that military power was projected and and do these translations um and get the creative juices going um in terms of how can we run our businesses more efficiently, how can we share risk, how can we align goals? All of those are important um as we look to stay competitive in in
41:59 a world that is becoming, you know, the the this the cycle of business seems to be turning ever more quickly. Um the the risks don't seem to be reducing. Um old risks get replaced with new ones, and yet there's there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity out there if we can figure out a way uh to pursue that opportunity um profitably. And so, uh that's that's why I do these kind of shows, and I I I hope you find them uh food for thought and and and useful as as you plot either where you're going
42:35 with your existing business or what what you may do in in starting a business. So, I thank you very much for joining me today, especially for my live guests. Always always a treat to see you. Uh if you have any thoughts, comments, questions, uh please feel free to post them um on our social media or send me an email. All of the links will be in the show notes after the after the episode uh posts on YouTube. And um always uh happy to hear from you.
43:10 Uh and then tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show People Making Money. And postponed from last week, our topic is going to be uh economic echoes. Uh so, I got hung up in court last week um much longer than I thought I would. Um and so, uh I had to cancel last uh Wednesday's show, and so we're going to do it uh tomorrow. And then on Thursday at 5:00 p.m. is my every other week show Jiggers Place. That's 5:00 p.m. uh uh Pacific time. And I'm going to be
43:45 talking about the things that make life worth living. And my uh text for that, if you will, is uh one of my favorite books by one of my favorite authors, the great Peter Mayle, who uh is is best known for uh his first book A Year in Provence. Um but he wrote a book called Year in Tastes. And I'm going to talk about some of uh Peter Mayle's acquired tastes that that that I've acquired over the years. Um, and and and we'll have uh one of
44:22 uh Peter Mayle's favorite libations um while we talk about that. So, I invite you uh to uh invite you to Jigger's Place on Thursday, 5:00 p.m. Pacific time as we head toward the end of the week. And then next week on Monday at uh 10:00 a.m. is my show Trusts and Estates Weekly. And my guest is Blair Dale. And he's going to be talking about risk navigation for estate planning. So, um you know, this
44:57 is one of the reasons for making an estate plan is to mitigate if not avoid risks. So, um Blair's going to talk to us about some of those. And uh I I invite you to join us for what I think will be a very interesting conversation. And then 7 days from today, we'll be back with the next episode of Business Lessons from the Military. So, thanks again for joining me. Wishing you a wonderful rest of the day. And signing off as I always do. Marie Darling, you are my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.