0:00 Who are [music] you? And where are you going?
0:07 >> [music]
0:08 >> What do you want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host Kevin Bemel and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and and trust and probate administration primarily from the standpoint of other professionals like myself who help people deal with these issues, but also for maybe you are dealing with them as
0:43 as someone who doesn't do this all the time. You were made the executor of of a relative's will and you're trying to figure it out. So, this is an opportunity for us to help for me to help you as well. Actually, it's us today. I have a guest to help you as well and and hopefully you'll get some knowledge that you can use to maybe quell your concern and and be more effective in this role that you've been put in. So, today I am particularly excited. You can probably tell the tenor of my voice is a little bit higher than normal to
1:19 have a very good friend of mine, Michael Abramson as my guest. Michael and I have known each other for many years. I think you don't I don't think you want to say it out loud and date ourselves, but we've known each other a long long time. And Michael is perhaps the most, but certainly among the very most knowledgeable lawyers with with whom I've I've ever dealt. And and as you know, if you watch the show, I've dealt with a lot of lawyers. So, so
1:54 Michael, first First all, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Well, thanks a lot, Kevin. Um I've been following the titles and and some of the shows and they're very useful and um for whoever the audience is listening there, I would urge them to uh follow carefully cuz there's a lot of great practical information that's there and good background. And what I've always enjoyed about the shows is they're they're not only legal, professional, but there's a psychological element there, too, which sort of rounds out, you know, how we deal with the people and the relationships that develop and how to best handle that.
2:29 And see, you you can see why we're such good friends. I don't even have to pay him for that.
2:35 >> [laughter]
2:36 >> So so thank you. I mean, that you know, that that I really appreciate you saying that because uh it's it's exactly what what I'm trying to accomplish. So So, Michael, before we get into kind of the meat of the episode, uh so people can get to know you a little bit, uh tell share with us a little bit of of your background and and, you know, why you be maybe why you became a lawyer, how you chose the area of law in which you practice, which which by the way is um Michael is not a specialist in in probate and and uh trust law or
3:11 estate planning, and that's one of the reasons why I so much wanted to have him on the show. Well, sure, Kevin. Uh I grew up in in Los Angeles here, uh originally in the Valley and then moved over to the city when I went to UCLA. I went to law school locally uh at Southwestern. Then I took a little bit of a interesting detour. I went uh for a year abroad and and studied at the University of London and in The Hague, Holland at the International Court. Uh I thought originally I wanted to do international law cuz I knew French uh pretty well and uh I like travel.
3:47 But um after traveling to some of those centers of power, New York, Washington D.C., and visiting the UN, and interviewing for the State Department, etc. I didn't like Maybe it's just me. I didn't like the people as much, and and I'm more perhaps entrepreneurial, so I decided to come back to LA, and I started practicing in the real estate field. I was in-house counsel for a a large group of national property owners, and through that experience, I I really sort of had to deal with everything. I was the lone in-house
4:22 counsel, so we dealt with tax issues, with insurance problems, tax reassessments, eviction of tenants, negotiation of leases, everything that has to do with, you know, uh let's call it marketing and and contracting for real property, and then later enforcing the rights of the parties. Mhm. So, and that's basically what I've been doing for the past uh 40 years or so. Mhm.
4:48 >> [clears throat]
4:48 >> Wow. So, so Michael, I you know, when when when one thinks about the probate and trust area, I I or or really kind of any area of the law these days, one thinks of, okay, well, there's, you know, landlord-tenant lawyers, there's uh country lawyers, right? They corporate lawyers, you know, lawyers specialize. But, one of the things I've seen about your practice is as kind of a a real estate and and and
5:24 sort of outside general counsel, you know, slash business attorney, you get involved in a lot of areas that um perhaps, you know, attorneys who are more specialized don't. So, how how did you evolve into that, and how how did that become part of your practice? Well, uh first of all, I I as you can see, you you reference the age, I started practicing law before the really before the internet came online. So, I used to go in my spare time to the Los Angeles Law Library and read up on everything that I
5:59 could find in every other area that I didn't cover in law school. Patents, trademarks, you know, uh, insurance law. A lot of the specialties and I even did a little bit of wills and trusts and probates. Always enjoyed the subject. But, I I'd say that the general point that I would stress for for the audience here is that if you don't know what you're doing, get get a specialist. I was over the course of my career involved in a few probates, but there was one beneficiary, uh, not not a lot of issues. So, I I
6:35 followed the form books, I followed the court rules, followed the filed the petition, took care of it. There was no opposition, no nothing. It was pro forma all the way. Mhm. Some of the later probates I've been involved in, I associated in a certified probate specialist. And, uh, maybe you you you you're familiar with that. His name is Leo Druzhback. He's a very excellent, uh, specialist in the valley. Really knows his stuff. Um, and I then carried on with representing these estates with their real property matters. Mhm. Now, there's a couple
7:12 things that have to be borne in mind there. A, there's sometimes is a conflict of interest. So, you have to watch that. Um, there is, for example, in in one estate I'm dealing with, there is a property management company. So, on one hand, there's an estate, on the other hand, there's a property management company that uh, operates under the estate's administration. Mhm. So, in an abundance of caution, before I maintain my relationship with the property management company. We executed a waiver of conflict to make sure everybody is on board. Now, really
7:49 economically, the the interests are pretty much aligned. But, since I was basically an outside counsel uh dealing with the myriad number of real estate issues that come up. Again, anything from insurance, financing, evictions, lease negotiations, anything that is in the life of a real property, uh you have to be careful with those conflicts because there may be uh something lurking in there. So, that that's the first advice. Use a specialist and beware of conflicts. Mhm. And then, what do I do? Well, I I
8:25 carried on with the the same things that I usually did. If there was an eviction, for example, you go through the the normal uh court filings, but instead of the property owner being the plaintiff, it is the estate. And occasionally, some of these things, not necessarily in UDs, but in other law cases, there may be an issue that requires probate court approval. So, if we're into a a major situation that could uh those questions could arise from, we go to our probate
9:01 specialist and if there's necessary a petition to the probate for approval of the actions. Okay. So, so actually, this is this is one of the matters um that on which you and I are both working, right? And and um right now, we actually we have a situation just like that, right? Where we've got properties that are owned directly by the estate. Yeah.
9:25 >> And that that create creates an exposure to the estate, Yeah. right? That normally wouldn't have, but for whatever reason, this the decedent handled it that way. Yeah. Um and and we've discussed it and and agreed that really those properties need to be put in in separate LLCs, but because of the way the you know, it was originally set up for me to administer the estate, we need the probate court's permission to transfer title from the estate to an LLC essentially owned by the estate. So,
10:00 that's where the probate attorney works with you, works with me, and we make all this happen. Sure. So, in the in these bigger estates, uh, and I you know, occasionally been involved in a few of them. Uh, you have to identify who the client is. So, that that's where the conflict is important to bear in mind because there there are beneficiaries and ultimately you have to protect their interests, but along the way, you know, the estate technically is your client, not the beneficiaries because they are they have not
10:35 uh, let's call it stepped out in as independent owners yet. They have not gotten the distribution from the estate, and therefore they can't really call the shots. You should consult them because ultimately it will affect them, and that's where the conflict comes in again. If there is more than one beneficiary, there could be divergent interests between those beneficiaries. So, that takes a lot of skill. It's not unlike this is a a big point. It's not unlike a bankruptcy case. And this is what Leo, he specialized in in bankruptcy matters
11:10 before he got to probate because there's a lot of parties, and just like, you know, in a bankruptcy there's many creditors, they're like the beneficiaries of the probate estate. So, their interests have to be balanced very carefully, but the ultimate client is the estate in so long as the probate is not closed, and you take your instructions from the either the probate administrator who's appointed by the court or the executor or whoever it may be that the court has has authorized. So, to keep those relationships straight is the first caveat that I would put out there. But
11:47 otherwise, use the same skills use of the same skills and use of the same cases and the same resources is pretty much congruent with normal real estate practice. Again, there's this overlay of the probate court and uh if I don't know how the court is going to estimate or if I strike that. If I can't estimate how the court is going to rule, I will have to get in touch with with the probate uh lawyer himself and say, "Based on your experience, what would the court's view be on this?"
12:22 So, and then that's a the final remark on this point is you got to know when to resort to the court and when not to because it gets expensive. Right. Now, ultimately, you do have this loyalty to the clients and you can't overspend uh but you can't underspend either.
12:39 >> [laughter]
12:40 >> You know, so you got to know when to uh pull the trigger on a petition, so to speak, when to try and negotiate, Mhm. um and there's all sorts of odd things that come up during the course of a probate. You'd be surprised. Um of about Let's call it bogus claims, fake claims, unjustified claims. People hear there's money and they they trot out some letter that they had from some years ago and say, "Well, I had a relationship and they wanted to give me this money." And
13:15 dealing with that is a delicate task because you don't want to spend too much money on court fees when you have a bogus claim, but on On other hand, you got to deal with it to protect the estate. So, hundreds of issues come up like that and and there's where, you know, you got to use your your lawyers or your accountants or your probate executors judgment and experience. Uh I find we do a lot of consultation. We, you know, have the video meetings are are very useful nowadays to get everybody on board. And sometimes, you know, that
13:50 that can make the difference in in a decision between winning a matter, losing a matter, or spending a lot of money and and spinning a lot of wheels needlessly. So, sometimes a 20-minute video meeting is really worth it. And as always with with these types of efforts, it's a it's sort of a team and you got to uh collaborate and get everybody's input there. So, that that's a psychological dimension that, you know, you can't put your ego in there. You got to be able to listen to everybody, take into the take into account, well, maybe I know better, but no, here the
14:26 executor says something different. So, you make your case to the executor. If the executor agrees, fine. If not, then you got to follow your your client's instructions. Right. Right. So, you know, one of the again, talking about in in situations where we've worked together. So, um you know, having been practicing law for so long, you have some some very long-term relationships that in some cases are sort of transitioning to into the second generation of the family, right? And so, um in in a way,
15:02 you're the trusted family advisor. And then, you know, along comes me who's the new kid on the block, right? Um and um especially in a situation where the heirs um are are not particularly knowledgeable about uh whether it's business matters, real estate, or for that matter, you know, probate and and estate matters. So, one of the things I found is you've been an excellent um um sort of representative
15:37 of the beneficiaries uh point of view, the beneficiaries' interest. And so, in in in in a way, um when in in in in my duty, of course, as a as a professional fiduciary, my fiduciary obligation is to the estate itself, not to the beneficiaries. Like you said, I I I like to um talk with them and and and, you know, know what their perspective is, but I can't I can't I can't take instructions
16:13 from them, right? But when I have a beneficiary who isn't particularly knowledgeable, so then to have you in the position of of the beneficiary's advisor means that you know, I can talk things through with you kind of at this level, if you will. And then, if need be, we can meet with the beneficiary and you know, together explain you know, what you recommend, what I recommend, and and work that issue
16:49 through, and I think they feel better represented, better heard, because they have um you know, their trusted family advisor essentially advocating for them. I don't I don't think there's necessarily an issue that they distrust me, but you know, otherwise, it could be like me just trying to sort of blow past them, you know, talking a lot of stuff that they don't understand.
17:17 >> Yeah. Well, this is an expansion of the first idea of conflicts of interest. The the appointed administrator, executor, personal representative, whatever capacity it may be, has a loyalty to the court and to the estate and to the beneficiaries. Now, there's sometimes a hierarchy that you have to make their priority. Uh so, the estate is large enough uh to justify uh the beneficiaries having their own counsel. And you know, for I'd say for 99% of the time, there is
17:54 congruence of interest. Occasionally, there is a little bit of a um let's call it divergence of of interest. So, that has to be addressed. Now, I didn't mention the other professionals, the broker. The broker has the marketing expertise um and all that plays into account when especially I'm talking about property now as most these estates nowadays have property of real real property. You know, what's going to happen with this property? Should it be sold? Uh maybe the the the beneficiaries know, "I
18:29 don't want to sell it." And then how do you how do you deal with that? That may be a a case where you need instructions from the court. If the administrator feels this property is a drain on the estate, um that case has to be made to the court uh that it's not an efficient and uh uh asset anymore. Um and again, that that could be a major stumbling block if there are more than one beneficiary. Uh there may be arguments as to some who say long-term, "I want to keep the property." Some say, "I don't." So, there there's where your your court intervention
19:06 may [clears throat] be uh unavoidable. Again, unless you get uh some sort of voluntary resolution on that. Right. Right. Let's take a quick break and we'll we'll come back and talk some more. Right. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the [clears throat] complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant
19:41 relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step. Magnum Properties Inc. Turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. So, we're on Trusts and Estates Weekly. I'm your host Kevin Bemel and my guest today is Michael Abramson. Michael is a real estate and business attorney with
20:17 his own practice and we're talking about how attorneys who were not specialists in estate planning and probate and trust administration may get involved nonetheless in a in a probate or in a even a trust administration and and and how that interaction can work. What are the the issues involved in that? So, you know, we were just talking about where you know, potentially there can be a divergence between
20:52 the interests or the yeah, the interests of the estate and the interests of the beneficiary especially if there's multiple beneficiaries, right? And and and how that can be resolved and and how I I what in the work that we've done how you've, you know, help you know, resolve some of those issues finding a mutually satisfactory so you know, solution to these problems. So, um if you would um talk about some other areas you know, in in in which you've
21:30 been involved where, you know, you've you've added value to to this process which, you know, can be lengthy, it can be frustrating, you know, all those things. Sure. Of course, that is well, you just stated the the goal here. A professional of whatever type is only worth their salt if they're going to add value. So, this goes back to core values. Integrity, hard work, what you're going to actually do for the client, not just what you're going to
22:06 bill. And I feel, you know, as if I have a big boss with a capital B looking over my shoulder. And whenever you do that billing, whenever you give advice, whenever you do anything, you say is this the best that I can do? Is this the most honest advice? And and am I am I billing fairly for it by adding something to the estate or adding something for the beneficiaries or helping to avoid court costs etc. That's that's the basic analysis. But sometimes you're not going to have a choice.
22:41 Say you come into a situation and I've I have seen this and I I think you have as well, Kevin, where there has been uh fraud or misappropriation or embezzlement on behalf of a family member who was appointed as a trustee under a trust or or appointed as a personal representative and then they they look at the the assets as their personal personal playground so to speak and they take advantage. So you have no no no problems there. I mean no no issues
23:16 there. You have to immediately address that in the most uh effective way possible. That may mean going directly to the court asking to to replace the the representative of the estate or the trust and get a new one. And so you you just can't avoid that. Uh now how how do you do that? Is that that is a question for a a specialist who's I hear I recommend this a lot. I like local counsel to help because they know the judges. Mhm. Uh I've been called on over the
23:52 years to do things in Nevada and you know northern California. I'm a little reluctant unless I know it's a winner because sometimes it's easier this is an insight here in real insiders thing. It's easier for a local judge to deny an outsider's request because they're not going to see them again. Mhm. Especially if they have someone on the other side who they are going to see again. Mhm. So don't hesitate to speaking to the professionals out there to use local people when appropriate. That's a judgment call. Depends on how big the case is etc. etc.
24:29 I say sometimes you can't avoid it. You if you're the only one that knows what to do and it's too hard to brief the other person it would take more resources then you got to do it yourself. But generally uh I would prefer to use a local counsel who knows how a specific judge with whom this is going to be uh uh presented uh to how that judge feels about these things and how they're going to prospectively rule. That in turn gets fed into our decision chain as to how we're going to proceed. Mhm.
25:05 That [clears throat] that's a uh a piece of advice I think is very valuable. So you know it's interesting because I think that same concept applies throughout. So for you you mentioned a few minutes ago about you having a real estate broker involved if there's real estate. So you know these days with the kind of tools that are available, you know in a way a broker could broker a deal almost anywhere in the United States setting aside issues of you know licensing and so forth. Um but what what I notice is
25:42 um highly skilled, highly competent, highly conscientious brokers if you know if if if I go to them and say hey I've got a I've got a situation, here's where the property is, will you handle this for me? Um they will say well what I'll do is I'll find you the right local person to handle it. I'll be happy to kind of oversee what that person is doing um you know to make sure that everything is being handled correctly. Uh but but you know I'm not the right person to actually be
26:19 handling that transaction, right? Um because you know they don't they don't know the intricacies of the market, they don't know the local players, etc. etc. So Well you know you're hitting on a key point there which I'm I'm lecturing myself as much as anybody else here. Humility is key in all these business relationships. I'm not the be-all and end-all. I'm not the one that knows everything. And the older I get, the more I believe that. So don't be shy, call on your other experts, uh get more the more opinions you get
26:55 many times, the more advice you get, the better results. And obviously, someone who's on the local scene is going to know that market better, which is real aside from, you know, the the legal, the financial, the the insurance and everything else we're talking about. The bottom line here is the marketing and the selling. That's what That's the dog and and we professionals are the tail, so to speak. So, the
27:18 >> [laughter]
27:20 >> the the the key point in any decision is always going to be financial, and don't think that you know everything. Call on someone, be humble, and say, "Look, I don't really know what's going on in in the market in Cleveland or in downtown Los Angeles or wherever you may be dealing with." And say, "I I I need some good sound good soundings as to what we're going to do in this market here." And then that's going to that's going to drive your decision. Is it worth a court battle if it's a conflict? Is it worth selling the property if it's the economics are not
27:56 good? Or is it worth Is it a keeper if we're going to develop it later on? You know, what's going on in that in that area? And no one's going to know all that. You can get all the data you want, you know, I don't care. Read all the computer programs you want. Unless you're on the scene there and you know firsthand knowledge and and and what's going on, you're not going to make as good a decisions. Now, I just mentioned here, this was the estate that that we're working on. I represented the the manager of that company, the owner of that company, for many years
28:31 before. So, I was familiar with that. And he he had his office right in the center of all of his properties. He would visit them weekly and daily. He would make the deals. He would collect the commissions. He was actually he combined the roles of broker and uh um manager of the company. Mhm. So, he had that. So, when he passed away untimely, we had to replace that with a broker and a manager. Mhm. His role that he played uh himself was now broken into two.
29:08 So, uh and and that cost a little more money, but there was no choice because the management company has to have a a broker's license and you have to hang that license somewhere. So, don't be shy, be humble, and consult your experts, and you know, check your decisions. It's that's just good advice in in life as well. Yeah. So, now I I want to go back to something you you mentioned a few minutes ago that um for for lawyers, probably they know this, but for other professionals,
29:45 what financial people in financial services, accountants who, you know, rarely if ever go to court, let alone laypeople who are not professionals. Um yeah, I think we have this idea that um you know, judges in their black robes are somehow completely detached from, you know, the very human uh um I don't even know, qualities, I guess. Um like, you know, like you mentioned, they
30:20 they might, you know, dismiss something from an outsider, um you know, more easily than someone who's in in the local area. I think that may it may surprise people to hear that because, you know, we Well, wait, judges don't do that. So, would you take a few minutes kind of expand on um you know, your experience dealing with judges so that so that people can get a really get a I think a better sense of of what that's all about. Well, I'm going to be very honest with this and and I'm going
30:56 to make some remarks and maybe people want to turn off the the show or they won't they won't ever want to see me again, but I'm going to be very straightforward. I I'm look at this as a generational issue. When I started some 40 years ago, the judges at that time were products of the of the of the earlier 20th century. There was different values. Those values have shifted. There's a new generation of judges. Most of them are, you know, sincere, but some of them are
31:31 in a different ideology than than I I would like to see. We've also had a couple major blows socially with the COVID and the imposition of rent controls, especially on residential, but it affected some commercial as well. And a general let's call it more permissive attitude on behalf of tenants has arisen over the last 10 15 years. And what I saw uh, 20 years ago, 30 years ago in
32:06 eviction cases uh, the tenants are getting a lot more slack and a lot more um, let's call it uh, indulgence than they were. I'll give you a very specific example. It's a I have a UD case. Um, and we couldn't serve
32:30 >> you real quickly. A UD means an for for those who don't know, it's an unlawful detainer. Yeah. It's it's an eviction. Unlawful detainer they're unlawful detainer unlawfully holding on or detaining the premises. They haven't paid their rent, they're making a nuisance, they haven't got the insurance, they're doing something in violation of the lease. Mhm. So, the the shorthand is evict UD case. So, the the tenant uh knows this that we're on his tail and avoids the service of the complaint. You can't do anything until you personally serve him. So, we go to what's called publication service.
33:06 We went six times, the guy's not there, we tried his home address, not there, etc. etc. Mhm. As a normal course, the court would issue that order. But, this was a smaller tenant. The court came back and said, "I want you to try before 8:00 in the morning." Never had that request before. And I want you to try after 6:00 p.m. in the evening. That's not normal. Right.
33:33 >> Uh normal business hours It's a business place. So, why did the court come back and say they just want to give the tenant an extra chance to um let's call it maybe make up the rent or do something. And they want to give every bit of {quote} due process. I disagree with that. I think it's unhealthy for landlords, but it's a generational shift uh that's been caused by several different factors. I don't have time to go into all the social and political factors that are behind that, but I I'm just giving you one little example there. And but there I could I could cite you many, many more. It holds up landlords tremendously and is very
34:09 expensive. Mhm. In [clears throat] the name of due process, the tenants sometimes take terrible advantage. Mhm. Now, this tenant as well This is This is for the lawyers, but the others be aware you can take these terrible tactics. He went to the court and he made what's called a fee waiver application. It means I'm too poor to pay the court fees. So, A, he knows about the case. B, he's putting this in front of the court so the court gets a little bit of sympathy. And I think maybe that's why the court said, "Okay, go back and try again
34:44 more." So, in the meantime, two months have gone by. We applied once. The court rejected the application. Now we're applying a second time. It'll probably come through the second time, but then you got to wait another uh uh uh week for the service period before they have to answer. And then maybe file the default or maybe he will file an answer at that time. So, the net result has been they've delayed the landlord because of the court's leniencies, let's call it, for a good couple months here. And that's expensive. And if that's if that's an estate's only asset, that's going to be a disaster. Fortunately,
35:20 this estate has more properties. It's a smaller one It's just one unit in a bigger property, so the estate can absorb it. But I don't think we're going to get too much money from this guy. All we All we have to do is get the The main thing is get the premises back into our possession. So, that that's been, in my opinion, unduly and unfairly delayed by the court. Right. And for an estate that doesn't have other liquid assets, so if there's a mortgage on the property, if insurance is due, if property taxes are due, Yeah. so now the the estate is
35:57 uh functionally, not actually, but functionally insolvent, right? And and so now it's going to have to bear additional costs because it's going to have to go to the judge the the probate court judge and say, "You know, Your Honor, here's what's going on. I can't pay this. I can't pay that. I need, you know, I need a court order uh maybe stopping uh uh execution on the judgment. Yeah, ex- ex- exactly. Um you know, so that the property isn't isn't or the the property of the property isn't lost because it couldn't pay its bills.
36:32 Right.
36:33 >> this is this is the the real nub of a lot of difficulties. If tenants are aware of these things, and some of them are, they will play play it out as long as they possibly can. And they will delay and either either then they will force a settlement either forgive the rent and I'll move out or you got to spend more money to to go through the court and get delayed and and and uh do it that way. You will you will The landlord always wins. But the question is when? When? Right.
37:08 >> [clears throat]
37:09 >> That's the problem. Right. And I've I've seen cases like this where it drags out even a year or more.
37:15 >> yeah. Right? And I I think And and this is Again, this is not to knock all judges, first of all. Um but I I think there's an insufficient recognition that the beneficiaries of an estate may be in no better financial position than this tenant. And yet there's a perception that because, you know, there's this piece of property, that somehow they're, you know, they're very wealthy people and and they're able to you know, sort of hold on or whatever, when in fact that may not necessarily be
37:50 the case. And so uh it it it it is an unfortunate reality of uh the certainly the court system here in in in the Los Angeles area. Yeah, the you're hitting on another key issue there. Basic social values. Uh it's it's running through everything. It's behind many of the laws. It's behind many of the the case decisions that the judges make. What is the social tenor? What is the What is the the mood? You know, what do we do here? Cuz many of these laws can be applied one way or the other. It depends on the judges.
38:25 I Early in my career, I remember UD cases. You know, for some reason I've always been in involved in tough ones, big ones where the contestants try and drag it out and there's a a large amount of rent that's due. And the judge at the end of our presentation, cuz he had already made his decision. He said, "What are you doing in there? Get out right now." I've never heard a judge say that.
38:48 >> [laughter]
38:49 >> We presented our case. He listened as he should have. You know, he heard all the evidence. And right without the business everybody rested their case, "What are you doing here? Get out right now." You know, he almost yelled at him. Mhm. Uh you know, interesting I I You don't see that nowadays. You don't. The last time I saw that was in my prior career when I had a property management company and I had a tenant um holding holding on to an apartment in a building that was owned by a a very elderly woman who lived off the income. And we explained that to the judge. And and then, you know, the tenant was there representing
39:25 herself and and she said, "Well, you know, your honor, I've got this problem, that problem, that problem." And and the judge after she made up with the judge basically said, "Look, this woman lives off this money. She's supposed to live in the street because you've got troubles, you a young person?" Mhm. So, I mean, he did give her a couple of weeks or whatever, but but but I I wouldn't expect to see something like that nowadays, unfortunately.
39:48 >> There's been I I can't speak for a lot of other jurisdictions, but where where we practice here in Southern California, um it's been more of a tenant-favoring environment for the last several years. Uh and representing landlords, of course, that's not my my preference.
40:09 >> [laughter] [clears throat]
40:12 >> Okay, we're going to take another break and we're going to come back and talk a a bit more. Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration, featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Rabalais, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most
40:47 practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time searching. So, my my guest on Trust & Estates Weekly is is Michael Abramson. We've been talking about a number of issues where an attorney who doesn't specialize in probate nevertheless finds himself involved uh in in a in the probate process or in the administration of a trust. And we we we were uh before the break talking about
41:23 um how the the atmosphere in in courts have changed, especially here in Southern California, um which can make it much more difficult. Uh there's a um And Michael, I'm I'm curious to to hear your thoughts on this. Um from my perspective, there's a a much lower ability to predict with any kind of certainty how a particular matter is going to be decided by the judge. And And just that uncertainty alone, um I find makes uh certainly my work
42:00 more difficult um because I can't I I can't necessarily make plans for what's going to happen when I don't know if this particular issue how this particular issue is going to be resolved. Well, you're another key issue you're raising. The concept of law, legislation, court's administration of such legislation is supposed to be certainty and predictability. That's what business planning is all about. And again, we talk about the tail of the dog. The law shouldn't
42:35 >> [laughter]
42:35 >> The law is the tail. The business is the dog. Not to denigrate business, but the point is we are way way over litigated. We are way way over legislated, and it's not getting better. And I don't see any turnaround in that either. And the more layers of complexity that you add to these things, the harder it is to administer and predict, basically. So, uh a lot depends on, as I said before, the generation of the judge in my opinion. What are their What are their core values, and how do they apply to the
43:10 law? That's why you got to sort of know know your courts and know your judges. Um But ideally, the law should should be predictive of the results. How it's administered, you get a lot of a lot of odd factors involved. Sometimes as as simple as the judge's schedule. The the the downtown court where I practice most, and that's the the central court of of all of Los Angeles County, there are branches, but the biggest court is the one that takes the most cases, uh is is overburdened with a lot of cases.
43:47 Um Trials are set way out there. Motions sometimes don't get heard as quickly as you want. And that But on the day-to-day level, again, most judges I want to say are sincere. They try and prepare, but I see a lot of them they miss issues. They don't give it the time that's necessary. And sometimes even during the oral argument when they're when there new points that are brought up on a hearing of a matter, uh they give it short shrift. I've heard them some say, "My calendar is busy. I got to move on." And then that leaves it to an appeal, which is expensive. Some things are not going to be appealed, they're way too
44:22 expensive. So, uh although a large part of what I do is litigation, I try and advise people stay away from the courts as much as possible, even though that's that's not always in my interest cuz that's how that's my bread and butter. Um but I and I put that out there. If you can plan, if you can negotiate, if you can get voluntary resolution of disputes, do that first before you get into the courts because it's expensive. And they will tell you the same thing. You know, there's a long wait, you know, they try and put people into mediation
44:57 occasionally, you know, but if you can just avoid that process, uh you're you're going to be happier and and richer.
45:05 >> [laughter]
45:06 >> Although sometimes there's no alternative, like we said earlier. Right. Right. So, I'm going to kind of switch things up just a little bit. So, for the uh lay people who are watching this show, uh how would you advise them that they select a lawyer with whom to work? Um I mean, it's I if if for you know, if someone is I can I've worked with lawyers my whole professional career. And and and I will I I've said this on the show before. Uh
45:41 contrary to lawyers' reputations, most of the lawyers I've I've worked with have been very ethical people, very honest people, very hard working. Like any profession, there are the the the the bad actors who I think, you know, they give, you know, what they do gives an outsized uh impression that that but but every profession has that. So, for someone who doesn't interact with lawyers all the time, how do they, you know, avoid those bad actors and and find the kind of
46:17 lawyer about which you you've been talking, you know, a lawyer like you? Thank you, but all right, I give people this advice and this counts for anybody who you're going to employ. Call the three C's. Character, commitment, and competence. First, look at what type of character they have. Then, look at their schedule. Are they able to commit to you? Are they able to give you the time? I don't have a a large stable of clients. I have, you know, people I've been working with like Kevin for some years and uh
46:53 I I know them and I I try and make it every respond every response their call is is they're the only client that I have. And from their [clears throat] viewpoint, that's what they want. So, that's the type of commitment you want. And then the competence, of course, I put that third, but that's very important as well. They have to be some sort of track record. They have to have a good personal recommendation. So, I don't I don't like to uh look at websites or things like this when I'm looking for a professional. I look for other people that I know who knows that person. And I get some sort of
47:28 character testimony. Some sort of testimony on how responsive they are on the commitment side and how professionally competent they are. Uh now again, I'm going to be very honest again here. Uh I've won many cases that perhaps were not as clearly on my side, but I think I tried to make the most compelling argument. And a few of them I a few painful ones I've lost when I should have really won. And I don't know what the factors were there. The judge liked the other lawyer better, what have you, but the point is competence is going to be somewhat spotty for everybody.
48:04 Nobody Nobody wins everything all the time. Nobody gets the exact result they want all the time, but generally speaking, I would say the three C's, character, commitment, and competence are your your guidepost. And then how you find that, I would recommend personal recommendations. And it may be someone who knows someone, you know, who knows someone. You You can go to websites and there's some personal testimonials, but and I have done that occasionally when finding specialists, but I still talk to them. I still get a feel for who they are and maybe get a
48:40 personal reference. Okay. I don't like to I don't like to use anyone unless I sort of know them, and that's not always possible, but for generally, I've I've found that works the best. It really is. If you if you can get personal contacts with someone it You don't know everybody, but you can know someone who knows someone. Right. Well, and it's sort of what struck me is is you can sort of maintain the chain of character, if you will. So, if if you know of someone who's who's character you believe is sound and and and and they're they're going to refer you to someone, there's likely to be a a similarity there.
49:19 Same with the other two C's. So, I Yeah, I mean, I I I I I had never I could never have codified it that way.
49:27 >> [laughter]
49:27 >> But but I you know, I do very much the same thing because as as the as the administrator, so I kind of look at my role. I'm the quarterback, but I need to have my receivers and my linebacker my linebacker, that's defense, but my my linemen, my running backs, and you know, I don't necessarily always have the the right professional for the situation, and so then I've got to go out to the other people I know and say, "Hey, here's what I what I need to accomplish. Do you know someone or some people who can do this?" And what I found is
50:03 if if I have confidence in the person's character, commitment, and competence, you know, the vast majority of the time, the people to whom they refer me also fulfill the the three C's. So, I I think that's that's that's great advice. This my tool of our time here cuz I don't I don't want to run over. So, I'm go go ahead. Yeah. I was just going to say, you know, these are the psychological dimensions I referred to. It's not always easy to start a relationship with someone and keep it going. You sometimes, you know, you find something later on that you
50:38 didn't know about. Right. But, I I see how a person acts in business, how a person acts with money is a real indicator of their character. Mhm.
50:49 >> [clears throat]
50:50 >> Yeah, I agree. 100%. 100%. So, um one one final question. Um and and that is um you know, it it it's interesting what you said a minute ago, how um I know when I call you, I you know, it it is like you're I'm your only client. I know that's not true.
51:13 >> [laughter]
51:14 >> You know, but but it does seem that way. So, how do how do you accomplish that? Everybody leads very busy lives. And and especially in an urban environment like Los Angeles, just just driving from point A to point B uh or not even driving, getting from point A to point B takes a long time. So, I'm I'm curious to know, how how do you, you know, maintain your ability to um properly represent / service your
51:51 clients. Because this is I think any something that all professionals struggle with.
51:57 >> Yes. Okay, well, is is this our last issue we're talking
52:01 >> because yeah, we're we're going to be up on our on our Okay, great. Great. No, I just because I'm going to go on a bit about this. Okay. The truth is it is impossible. Because add into that family. Mhm. You add into that friends. And each one by the time, you know, you're in a place like you are like I am in our careers, we have a lot of associations. Mhm. Not just business, not just family, but general community as well. Mhm. And to make each person feel special, to make each person feel like they are the ones who are getting your main
52:36 attention, it's well nigh impossible. So, how do I do it? I ask for heaven's help. Mhm. Number one. Number two. We all know that the brain is well under capitalized, under used. Mhm. [clears throat] We all have a lot more capacity than we're using. Is that true? I'm asking everybody out there. Everybody knows they could be doing better business, giving better advice, have more physical fitness, have more pleasure in life, have more more of everything. We we want
53:11 more and we can do more. So, you have to keep that striving attitude every day waking up and say this is going to be a great day. All the usual personal motivational skills that that you you can employ, but you realize you can't do it by yourself unless you really get a little bit of divine assistance. And how you switch from one topic to the other, that is a a struggle I work with every day. It's taken years of practice. You know, you have to sort of compartmentalize one problem and then go to the other. You have to shift emotions sometimes. Mhm.
53:46 Sometimes you get a great piece of news, a great success. Oh, the court ruled in my favor. Or oh, we just signed that lease, that that that property that was out there for 6 months. We got a good tenant in there, you know? On the other hand, you know, oh, you just got the notice your your your your request for order of publication from the court for this UD case was rejected. Oh, you got to start over again, you know, another 2 months. So, you got to be able to roll with that, keep a positive attitude, and and remember what are you working for? That's a question everybody can ask themselves. What am I working for? If
54:21 you have the healthy motivations, what you're working for, it will help you and that will permeate all aspects of your life. I'm working to help these beneficiaries. Mhm. They have a daughter, for example, they have a daughter who needs some medical care. So, if I can do a good job and and make sure they have a nice income flow and protect the estate from from attacks and and keep the the assets intact as much as That's going to help their family for the next 10 years. What are you working for? You're working to help people. That's ultimately what we're all doing. And that's a great pleasure. Mhm. Solve problems to people,
54:57 to get their lives better, you know, to in into into a more financially stable way, to get rid of a problem. Mhm.
55:04 >> [clears throat]
55:04 >> The average guy doesn't like litigation cuz of the uncertainties and everything else we talked about. Mhm.
55:10 >> So, to relieve a person's mind from that, you're you're you're doing such a great service. It's a kindness to them. Mhm. That's worth more than money. So, keep keep those factors in What are you working for? The plus the other things I said. Hope that's helpful. Yeah, you know, um recently I've been reminding myself and and in actuality and anyone who cares to listen that uh we need to work to live, not live to work. Excellent. And you know, you raise the issue of family.
55:46 We we work so we can take care of our family, so we can spend time with our family. We can support them, not just financially, emotionally, spiritually. And and what I found in in you know, I'm coming I'm coming out of a a difficult period in my life. What I found is if I'm willing to focus, like you said, on making my work about helping other people, so then it seems like all the rest of it kind of flows along with it.
56:21 Right? And and that that's a
56:24 >> Right? That that that's part of the you know, to to use your reference of a moment ago, I I believe that's part of the divine plan. That that's that's what we're here to do. Is is to is to help our fellow
56:36 >> to help each other, you know? Each one has individual skills that the other one doesn't. Each one has problems that the other one doesn't, and each one has solutions that the other one doesn't. So, it it's I mentioned before, collaboration, it's just so key and you know, you keep all these aspects in mind of what you're working for, collaboration, humility, doing the best you can to help another person, and that's the best you can do. And then work on your work on your competence always as well. Right, exactly.
57:09 >> build the character. Well, Michael, this has been a wonderful conversation. I I can't thank you enough for for coming on the show. Hopefully, maybe, you know, later this year I'll be able to entice you to come back again. We'll we'll talk some more about some of these issues. But but I'm I'm I know that people watching the show are are going to get a lot out of it, and not just in the business realm, but just in the in the life realm I as as I have you know having been your friend for for so long a time period. So
57:40 >> Thank you, Kevin, for the opportunity. I really appreciate it and I appreciate what you're doing. Tremendous public service on Probate TV here to to give a lot of people the assurances and the confidence to to move forward with their somewhat complex and difficult challenges. Thank you. So I'm going to have you hold tight here while I wrap up and then we'll we'll talk offline for a moment. So folks, thank you so much for watching the show today. Really appreciate it. If you have questions, comments, criticisms
58:15 of me My links the links to social media will be in the show notes after this episode posts on Facebook. I'll I'd be happy to to respond. You know, as you know, always within my area of competence. So if you have something that I'm not qualified to respond to, I will be happy to find you a referral to someone who can help you with that. But but but having said that, if it's and if it's something private, my email address will be in the show notes as well. You can you know, you can email me privately and I'll respond
58:51 privately as well. So that just leaves me to to remind you tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show Business Lessons from the Military. And then on Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show People Making Money. So hopefully I'll see you later this week. And that just leaves me to wrap things up by reminding everyone Marie darling, you are my bell. You know you are. Courage at all times, my friends.