0:15 good afternoon and welcome to people making money I'm your host Kevin bemel and we are here every Wednesday at 12 30 p.m Pacific Time 3 30 p.m eastern time with an hour in for Central and Mountain I think we've covered the whole United States except for way out there in Hawaii and Alaska which I think they're two hours earlier than I am but don't quote me on that and I'm excited today because I have a guest I think you will find has a tremendous amount of insight that you can use in developing your own
0:50 professional prospects your own career or business so I'm I'm happy I'm just going to get right into this without any a whole lot of Ado um and and I'm happy to introduce Jonathan malm and Jonathan is the uh co-author of a new book called let me get it here real quickly how to build long-term energy health and success as a Ministry leader so I'll talk about the the book in just a minute but I want to give you a real brief biography about
1:25 Jonathan so you can know his background so Jonathan has helped thousands of churches through projects like sundaysocial.tv and church stage design ideas.com and he consults with organizations on guest services and creative expression so he and his co-author Jason have written several books including the comeback effect the comeback culture the volunteer effect and the volunteer survival guide and unlike me who's in relatively cool
2:01 Southern California we were talking about this before the show started Jonathan is in hot hot San Antonio where he lives with his uh with his family but he did assure me he recently replaced his air conditioner so he shouldn't be sweating during the interview so Jonathan welcome to people making money thanks for coming on my show thanks for having me I I realized I've I've you know I'm 38 but I feel like this is like when I finally hit adulthood when I'm so excited about a new AC unit I've been geeking out about it all day
2:36 I think it sounds like that that that there's some TV commercial where they they have this thing where the seminar turning into your parents right it's like yeah that's that's that's where I'm at right now so welcome to adulthood you'll hate it you know so so Jonathan I mean mine before we get into the into your book specifically um would you share a little bit about um your professional Journey how did you get into doing the kind of Consulting
3:12 and writing that you did I mean with was was this something you know as a kid you were thinking gosh you know what I want to do is you know I want to help churches Thrive right um what what did that Journey look like if you if you'll share at least some high points of that with us yeah I mean so so I grew up my dad was a missionary in Guatemala I was in the middle of a Civil War which was all sorts of craziness but it was really cool to see him always in an entrepreneurial kind of approach like he was always an entrepreneur um what he did down in Guatemala was
3:48 largely taking short-term teams to you know orphanages or to build um you know build a feeding Center and just different things around the country and I never really got to see him in a traditional job uh so I always had this sort of entrepreneurial bent myself where I would you know I would buy Guatemalan currency and when we came back to the US I would sell it so I was a currency Trader you know but I always started businesses and always looked for you know oh this could be a product or this could be something and um we moved back to the US and my dad worked at a church so obviously as a pastor's kid I started working at the church but while I was there I just saw
4:25 a lot of needs in the church because that's where I was working right so I saw uh needs for churches becoming more welcoming needs for churches with staging trying to you know kind of captivate the imagination of people coming in maybe expecting a stodgy church that doesn't really relate to my everyday life and changing that now I think we're still in the opposite extreme where we do that too much a little bit um we make it too much about a show but the goal was to challenge your perceptions about what church could be right um and then yeah so in the middle of that I started a company called sundaysocial.tv which you mentioned we we create social media Graphics the
5:01 churches can use kind of like a subscription use whatever you need approach and that's what I do full-time now with writing on the side if you've ever written a book unless it's the best seller you're probably not making a lot of money from it but it's more a labor of love for for me and Jason both but yeah and then this book don't burn out burn bright was the result of especially during covid seeing a lot of a lot of pastors you know because those are primarily who I work with but I know a lot of Business Leaders as well dealing with burnout just losing their passion for Ministry especially when especially in churches
5:36 you know we won't always talk about churches but this is kind of the atmosphere is you know you have people that either especially in Texas where like wear masks or they're like don't wear masks and you're trying to have a church service and accommodate both of these extreme people and there's all these spiritual elements involved where you feel like God is telling you one way or another and it's this complexity that you know you want to serve people you want to make them happy but you can't it's impossible so and there was a lot of burnout in covid and now we've seen a lot of the long tail kind of like coveted a lot of the long tail effects of that where you know maybe you
6:11 survived but now you now you're burning up because you you got through the emergency and now you're just feeling the result of all that exhaustion so we wanted to write this book because we don't think burnout is both in Ministry or in business but it requires some very intentional discipline in life and so and I think that this this really is the timely subject right because if you I don't know if how much you follow the business press but I I read the Wall Street Journal pretty much every day and and it seems like on a fairly regular basis there are articles about burnout
6:49 and and not just among leadership but even just among Rank and file people and and I think some of it is covid I and some of it is just the the sort of tone of society today and and it's it's it's I I used to see this I mentioned um the we were talking about the three pillars of attainment before we started this was a big problem when I was on deployment where you know you're on a ship and it's like day after day and it's the same cycle of work over and over again and how do you keep people vital and and engaged in their lives not
7:26 just their work but their lives right so yeah so where did I I understand that that was probably the Genesis of the book where did you start in terms of figuring out the kind of ideas and and recommendations you were going to make to people yeah so we we identified 10 sources of burnout in people typically um a lot of it comes down to not being able to rest not knowing how to rest uh it comes down to things like boundaries uh things like not operating from a
8:02 strong set of values there were 10 of them and and we worked with um Jason who's my co-writer he his wife is a counselor so we worked really a lot with her on figuring out okay what are what are the negatives and our goal obviously wasn't to create another book about burnout like you said there are a lot of great articles about you know recovery from burnout how to know if you're burned out our goal was to hopefully get you before you got to that place and so we took those 10 negatives and said okay now what are the positives what are what are some some pillars we can build into our lives that will actually keep us safe from the negatives but also build strength and fortitude in
8:38 our lives for those areas so I mean one of my favorite chapters is and I think this goes back to what you were saying is is the idea of how do you actually rest because we have more opportunity for leisure than we've ever had in our lives right at the same time we feel like none of it is restful and so we talk about in the book about freeing yourself from entanglements we didn't want to call it addictions but these these these these things that like we enjoy them so much but they zap our rest instead of giving us rest so being on my phone all the day for instance that that it simulates rest I can spend two hours
9:14 on Facebook and feel exhausted being on Facebook that long so obviously it's not it's not a Leisure activity if I'm feeling exhausted from it so we we talk about how do you know if something's causing you rest or how do you know if it's an entanglement and there are just a lot of things like that that are subtle tweaks I think we can make in our lives that will then build us to a healthy place so when when you say a lot of them are are tweaks expand on that if you would because tweaks sound like something okay I'll just like change this one little thing and then everything is is you know kind of hunky-dory is it is it really that
9:50 simple or are we looking at something broader than you know then maybe I'll change this little thing here and this little thing here I mean think about it like an engine you know you if you're maintaining it properly most of what you're doing is you know you're changing the oil you're obviously adding gas in you're you know adjusting some things here and there adjusting alignment it's only whenever the car is having some serious problems that you need to replace the engine or need to do some massive transmission work right so our goal with this book was you know if you're if you're if you're fully burnt out I do believe you
10:25 can get something from this but this is probably not for you you need to go to hey you need to get a counselor really like and even if you're not burned out it's good to go to counseling right but you need to really dive into some soul work and and kind of restructure some things but yeah these are largely small tweaks so for instance we talk about this the idea of setting boundaries and understanding that you know um there are people who should have unlimited access to you and there's people who should have limited access to you and then people who are like your peers and a lot of times we get those flipped you know the squeaky wheel gets the Greeks but those are usually the ones that shouldn't probably have access
11:01 to us unfettered access and uh so things like that that you know just just changing your mentality and realizing okay I'm going to shift some things around in my life and I do believe it can it can yield some long-term huge results for you so let's let's talk about that because I think this is something that a lot of people struggle with I know I certainly do so people pretty much have access to me whenever whenever they want right so how how do we how do we say to someone who I'm well first of all who would you
11:36 recommend we give unfettered access to versus you know maybe somewhat restricted access how do we make those decisions yeah so in the book we we kind of we we put it down to three different types of people it's um give to uh get from give to and then live with so uh the people that we get from the people that are you know speaking mentorship into our lives the people that are speaking life into our life those are the people that we have unfettered access to our life because they're going to help us avoid
12:11 costly mistakes they're going to be encouraging us when we're feeling discouraged whenever they see something that's out of line I want I want them to be able to speak into my life and I want to be able to call me at 2AM in the morning and hey let's let's talk about this right now right um unlimited access then there are people we you know our peers that we just you know we give we give access to we give to we get from obviously that's pretty self-explanatory but then there's the give two people uh those are the people that we Mentor the people that we are um you know in Ministry sense that people we're ministering to people that kind of maybe take a little bit of that life energy from us we feel a little Zapped afterwards now you know again I'm
12:49 a believer I'm a Christian so I you know we talk about who is my neighbor Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself and he tells a story about the Good Samaritan the person who's beat up on the side of the road right um so there is this thing about loving people and giving to people and whether you're Christian or not you believe in that um and and so there is that time we do need to be giving to people and so we can't set boundaries in such a way we don't we don't create walls to keep people out but instead we think of it like a gate where that game lets people in it sets the timing where we let people in it can keep people out but it's mostly more a structure for how we let people in and it's important that we
13:24 do that well okay so one of the things that I've talked to people about over the years is we have to get we have to be able to say no to people but in a way that we're not pushing them away so I recommend to people they say something like well no but let me suggest this for you as a way to give the person another place they can go where they can get help for example right yeah because otherwise you're right they they second
13:59 and especially so I I think when you know when someone is um an introvert interacting with people really does take that energy out of them right so whereas an extrovert they tend to get energized by that so um have did you how have you or how did you look at that issue in terms of or did you look at that issue in terms of um people having access to to another person that sort of thing yeah so I mean you kind of talking about two things there the uh the idea of you
14:35 know giving them Alternatives right so the yes or no but right um so there is that I mean I I would also even say that one of the things we talk about in the book is the idea of requiring motion from the other person uh when I worked at a church I would always have parents coming up to me I was I was a worship leader and they would say can you teach my son guitar and sure I would love to do that so I would sit down with their son for the first lesson we'd pull out our guitars and I would say okay show me what you know and within two seconds it was clear that they've never touched that guitar before coming to sit with me and I realized this person had no motion on
15:12 their part so it was taking me to put all the motion into helping them so what I what I started to do is I said okay yes I would be happy to teach your son how to play guitar watch these three YouTube videos and do what's on them and then come to me whenever you whenever you've done that and the result of that subtle change that I did was I never had a single parent actually follow through on that and send their kid to me not because they felt pushed away but because their kids didn't follow through with it I I had to expect motion from them so you know to your point yes oh I would love to help you I can help you
15:47 whenever you get this this this this and this to me and then let's go and you'll find that so often nobody will get this this this this and you right like you set up that boundary you set up that structure and you'll find that man it solves a lot of the problems just because people don't necessarily know what they want they'll ask for help before they even really know what they need and as they dive into it even a little bit they realize oh I don't don't need that person so that that will often help you a lot of it and then to your point about extroversion introversion I'm an extreme extrovert I get energized around people I love connecting people I love all of that but there are still
16:22 people that you know people in situations especially whenever I'm giving so much that I feel exhausted there comes a point where it even as extroverted as I am I need to I need to lay down and sit by a beach and sip a margarita and talk to no one and just read my book right like so we we all have different levels and that's the thing I think you know there it's it's hard to put an easy like you need to spend four hours resting and eight hours doing this it's a we're individuals we have different needs different capacities for different areas and we really need to be aware of who we are and what are areas for potential burnout
17:00 are in fact we created an assessment for the book and it's free if you want to do it it's at don't burn out right sorry don't burn out burnbrite.com it's a free assessment and it goes through those 10 areas you can take it and it'll just tell you which area you're maybe prone to burning out a little bit more because it is we do need to be aware that certain things for some people oh I'll never burn out because of that but oh this other area that's going to be a cause for extreme exhaustion for me it's it's so so I'm people don't realize this and I've mentioned a few times on the show I'm actually an extreme introvert and it it's so interesting to
17:37 hear an extrovert say that even I get you know exhausted sometimes because I the extroverts I know they seem to be able to go on forever you know like the Energizer Bunny or whatever you know what I'm saying and but but of course it makes sense we're all more on a kind of a spectrum between you know no one is really uh pure introvert or a pure extrovert so we're somewhere on that on that like say that that and that's that's the thing I think a lot of extroverts maybe either they're if you're talking about Enneagram which is super popular uh you're a seven where
18:12 you avoid negative emotions so maybe you are tired but you just you're like I'm not gonna deal with that right so there's a little bit of self-awareness that comes of realizing okay yes I do love this but there is a limit you know I love I love ice cream but if I eat too much ice cream my tummy's gonna be hurting right like even good things for us things that we love we need to set boundaries and limits on them right right it's funny just to digress for a minute you mentioned enneagrams Scott A lender was on the show a few weeks ago talking about his his book on enneagrams so yeah um I'm a seven so I definitely avoid those negative emotions I don't I in fact I told my wife when we were dating
18:48 she went to uh to Paris for a couple of weeks and I said just so you know I don't miss people so I we were dating this was a horrible thing to say to her but I was warning her I'm like I don't tend to miss people because I just don't think about those negative emotions but since I've learned that maybe that's not a not a healthy way to approach life I mean and it's really uh sometime offline I have to figure out why she married you despite that she was she she loved the pain it was she's a masochist we'll have to make sure her hair shirt gets dry cleaned
19:30 me ministers and in the church setting um you mentioned something that I'd love for you to dive into really as deeply as you're willing to go and then as you said something about um kind of spiritual exhaustion and I I think that in in our society today I I think a lot of the exhaustion people are feeling is in fact spiritual exhaustion even though they're you know not they're not working in a church or a synagogue or anything like that right but yeah it seems like life is can be so
20:05 oppressive and and and and so talk talk if you would about that and like I said go please go as deeply as you would into it because this is a message I don't think gets out very often in our society yeah I mean we can we can talk a long time about this if you want but uh one of the distinctions I made in the book is the idea that um you know before modern day our modern day approach to work and all this is is burnout meant I worked too hard in the field and I need to sit down and rest it
20:41 was very physical and very much physical evidence that I'm tired I need to drink water I need to refuel now that's not our case there there are obviously a lot of people who still work outdoors and they still work you know manual labor they're they're putting their body to it so they can get those you know those cues that they need to rest but man I work in front of a computer all day if I'm tired working in front of a computer that seems that's like I need to work out right like that's I'm tired there's obviously some physical things I need to deal with but there's a lot of emotional energy and a lot of like you said spiritual energy
21:16 that goes to um goes into doing this and I'm going to quote the Bible but the Bible says that the the spirit and the Soul are are are impossible to divide only only the word of God can divide it is what the scripture says but the idea that our soul and our spirit are highly tied together you know we don't necessarily know that's why a lot of a lot of um you know church services people will say they're overly emotional right like oh it's just all emotions but in in my faith we believe that that you know the emotions in the spirit you can't really tell them apart sometimes they are they are separate but a lot of
21:51 times they go hand in hand you know the emotions can go it can be all emotion or all Spirit no emotion right but a lot of times they kind of move together so I'm very careful to guard my emotional energy that means you know little things that I don't enjoy doing and this seems very Millennial of me which I am uh you know I I don't go to the grocery store as much as possible I don't mow my grass there are things that kind of I I dread and they feel like they're things that I'm kind of dreading not looking forward to and and zap my emotional energy I guard those as much as possible so that when I do work I can enjoy what I'm
22:27 doing I have energy to be creative I have energy to problem solve but yeah it's really important that we that we guard those things so much because it's shocking how many things take our emotional energy little conflicts that we that we encounter so conflicts or their spouse obviously I can't guard my emotional energy whenever my my spouse and I have a fight right but I can guard it in other areas so by setting boundaries with other people by you know and I don't want to sound so so Millennial here I keep sending Millennials but the idea that you know going to comment sections on Instagram posts you know I was I was making a joke
23:03 the other day that if you if you look at a post from a mom influencer the comment section is horrible you know they're posting a cute video of their daughter getting hooked up in their car seat and moms will tear into them like you're you're going to kill your daughter you're putting her in there wrong you know like all of these things that you know everyone's opinions that are kind of chipping away at our self-esteem they're they're maybe anger at us those are all things that chip away at our emotional and spiritual energy and but we do need to be careful about guarding them um it's just so hard and so you have to be intentional you know I identify during the day is this encounter right now
23:39 adding energy to me or taking energy away um and and then reduce reduce those things that take away your energy as much as possible is what I would encourage you to do well so I I don't think that that's a millennial thing because it is it's it's the the terms of like you know safe space and all that it's like there's all that conversation about that it feels very Millennial but there's a truth to it oh I I well so I do the same I I wouldn't have been able to describe it that way probably but as I'm listening to you talk I'm thinking well gosh I I do that there are you know I I try and reduce
24:17 the amount of time I have to be dealing with these things that I know will drain me right and um in in one area of my life I'm I'm you know I'm taking a real hit for doing that um because the people I'm staying away from don't like that I'm doing that it's it's a it's a legal thing and and you know I just I have to do it for my own kind of self-preservation um and I you know I've I've talked to my you know therapist about it and he's like yes of course you have to right so
24:52 I think I don't know sometimes it seems like we almost need permission not to engage in these things and that's where people sometimes get stuck what is what is your thinking around that issue well I love the way you said it you said I I need this to function so there was the humility in that it a lot of times I think we say you know you are doing this to me or you you know like I it's just it comes down to humility so when we set those boundaries and people will get angry when we set those boundaries we can approach it in humility and say
25:27 listen I I should be able to do this I should be able to to talk to you about this right now but I I just can't I'm so exhausted and I'm so sorry um when we approach it with humility it can hopefully lessen some of the anger that we experience when it comes to that but then we can also realize yeah it is you know we we listen to our soul we we take stock in our soul in the book I don't know if you've ever seen the it's a really popular show Yosemite um the show Yosemite well uh in it you know there's this great scene where the grandson is he's he's he's he's he's in
26:02 the grandfather's house and he's you know trying to pick the biggest cookie and he said I'm looking at all these cookies but I but I can't decide which one's the biggest one I can't decide which one I get and so the grandfather says we'll take them all out look at them he's like and the grandson says I can do that and I love this lion because he says grandson you can do whatever you want like it's like I just want you to just this is your box of cookies this is your house this is your and I think we need to have permission in our in our own souls to say hey this is this is your soul take stock look at what's in there uh open some things in the Book of
26:38 Psalms you know there's this from from David uh he says search my heart oh God see if there's anything that that uh that you know doesn't make you happy right so it's like it's kind of giving permission to to look inside your soul and kind of rearrange and remove some things that aren't right I think we need to do that for ourselves I think you know obviously a Believer I believe God can show me that but I think there's something we can do about that you know self-awareness of saying this is this is not good that's in my soul right now so I need to I need to take stock and remove that so I I think you're exactly right and and I I one of my closest friends is an atheist
27:14 um and when we talk often about because because like you I'm I'm a I'm a believer I'm a religious Jew and and you know and and our running joke is I tell him you're the most Jewish atheist I've ever met and he's music too I've ever met and we're not exactly sure what that means but but the reality is is is he's he had probably has um a greater desire for introspection and and self-understanding and self-awareness then maybe any person I've met so I think it's it is something
27:51 we can do I I I I I personally think it's it's um easier to do it if you're living a a god-centered life um because I see the struggles that he goes through um but that's this people have to live and be well but I do I think we can all all do that so what how do we how do we engage in that process without scaring the heck out of ourselves yeah that's uh so I mean I would you
28:27 know you talk about having faith I would actually say that Christians are probably pretty bad at introspection I would say the Jewish faith when I when I look at when I call the Old Testament it's very introspective especially the Psalms especially you know Ecclesiastes um there's very much introspection understanding what's going on your heart unfortunately I feel like the Christian faith is like let's just okay you know whatever pastor says let's we're gonna believe that right like well does Scripture actually say that and maybe scripture seems like it contradicts itself so obviously that can't be the truth if we believe it so what does that really mean what does that mean for for us there's this there's very much that
29:02 introspection and I think it just comes down to um humility really is understanding that I am probably 50 wrong on a lot of things and what that means is I need to evaluate a what I believe and why I believe it and that comes down to some really deep Soul part so I think I think humility is a key thing there and we talk about that as one of the pillars is that Pride will actually take you out because you make it all about you know your vision your goal your your thing that you're trying to accomplish and you you know leave beaten bloodied bodies
29:37 along the Wayside uh but at the same time you don't hear important correction that needs to come your way or you don't evaluate things that need to change in your life so yeah I I I it's tough and especially I was talking to someone who works at a church in the UK and I was really trying to encourage them because like I'm burnt out I'm like well have you seen a counselor they're like well that's not really popular for UK Christians I'm like well don't tell anyone but go see a counselor right because it is there's this there's this there's been a stigma even in in the past in the U.S I hopefully I feel like the US is opening a lot more up to
30:13 counseling but especially Christians um but yeah there is a stigma to this kind of feely like what's going on in my heart sort of thing but we have to acknowledge the reality of it we're not we're not just Blood and Bones and and skin right there's there's a deeper part to us that we have to be in touch with so you hit on you hit on two things um and hopefully I'll remember the second one because I want to address this this issue because I I I find myself um confronting this issue quite often and you brought up humility which
30:48 I I remember being at a a Sabbath table lunch quite a number of years ago and the um the person who had invited me to the lunch asked us to go around the table and say and and and answer the question what do you think is most missing in American society and my answer at that time was humility because I I do think it's the inability to take a step back have a sense of you know there's other people in the world they have other perspectives just because their perspective is different from me does not make them evil yeah and that that the only way to
31:24 do that as far as I can tell is to come from that place of humility so how do you see um humility because I I'm assuming you do how do you seek um humility um connected to avoiding burnout sense no yeah I mean so we talked you know in in this book specifically obviously about Ministry where a lot of a lot of modern day pastors are getting into trouble you know if you've seen any of the documentaries about you know these mega churches that are just
32:00 abusing people and doing horrible things is is we can set our vision as the most important thing I'd say this in every area of our life my my business that I'm starting is the most important thing and and if we're doing something that makes a difference you know if we're you know if we're making uh you know if we're making playing cards okay is that making a difference in the world maybe maybe not right like it doesn't feel like we're like changing the world but a lot of the times if we have this really passionate idea for a business it's something we think is going to help people and as we engage in the business
32:35 as we engage in the church we see people being helped and we say this is this is valuable this is important and I'm achieving this and everything can be built in order to serve that vision and as the leader that vision is inextricably tied to me so consequently you can start feeling very narcissistic where the the you know the business the organization is is accomplishing great things it's making such an impact on people we have to serve it at all costs so I don't care if you're if you're feeling bad right now we've got to accomplish this this thing right now we got to accomplish this this task and it
33:13 it it very much becomes a narcissistic approach and we don't realize it is because we tie it to the organization even though the organization is operating at the whims of my heart right um so that's what we see a lot of times in the church unfortunately and people get into it with good motives it's not like I don't think most people most pastors that you know abuse their congregations get into it like oh I'm going to get as much as possible you know we all have a desire to help but it very quickly becomes about me and about what I'm wanting to do and it can be it can get you in trouble so there's that aspect of humility but there's also the aspect of you know I need to Value people enough
33:51 to realize that there's something that I can learn from them um so my mom was one of the best people about this it used to frustrate me to no end but she would always you know meet someone at church and introduce them to me and say Jonathan come meet this person they do whatever they study botany in college and she thought that was the most fascinating thing in the world she's legitimately fascinated by people and there she thinks there's something interesting about everyone and I want to have that same characteristic in my life because when we when we value people and we're
34:27 fascinated by them we say okay they think differently to me they're not an idiot so what must they know or what perspective must they have that I don't have and I believe that's just a foundation too like you said to to kind of making peace okay well um there's a whole there's a large portion of the race that feels differently about a topic that I do than my race does so maybe if you know hundreds of thousands of people are feeling this way maybe I should listen up and hear what I'm missing what what I'm what am I missing here right like right that's a valuable thing and I there is this this this lack of humility
35:02 in our culture right now where you know we want to shut off anybody who believes differently than us and assume that they're just an idiot and it it leads to a really shallow and really um really small life in in small lives I think are are prone to burnout because when we're trying to accomplish something big in a small world it's going to be too much for us and we're not going to be able to do it uh I I I that is I think a brilliant observation if you'll allow me to engage in I don't mean that hyperbolically um it is so powerful it reminded me of
35:39 when my first Tour of Duty as a Chaplain and I I was I was assigned to Okinawa Japan and we only had half the number of chaplains that we were supposed to have and the most senior one was getting ready to leave and uh I I my wife had recently had uh our daughter and and and she had come back to the United States and so I was working I don't know 16 20 hours a day because there was no no nothing could govern my behavior and the day before
36:14 the senior chaplain left he came to my office and and he said uh he said did you submit to go to that conference that I want you to go to and I said no fathers he was a Catholic priest I said no father um I I didn't I I can't get away I said there's there's only gonna be three of us after you leave for an eight-person you know command what what are these other people supposed to do without me you know it's like I'm like you're right um and he's like he's like is I rarely give orders
36:50 I am ordering you to put in your paperwork to go to this conference and you will do it before I detach tomorrow is that understood um yes sir you know when I went to my desk and I put it and and you know he the conference was sending me back to the United States right it it took you know that level for me to see that it wasn't about me right and and this this I mean um I'll I'll say the chaplain's name because I think he is a truly great man Frank puglacy is a Catholic priest he
37:26 was known all over Okinawa as as being the the chaplain's chaplain so to speak you know and he could he could see through all that I suspect he had probably made many of those same mistakes as a young Pastor himself right that's and that's what it takes sometimes and I was not by the way I was not a young man when that happened I was um my late 40s you know so yeah it shows you we I think somehow you've been sort of you know ragging on Millennials but I I I think I think most of these issues are are age Universal oh yeah
38:03 yeah and that's I mean that's what I love is I think as I get a little bit older I'm starting to to see some things on the other side you know I was talking to my wife the other day about how I was at a checkout line in at the grocery store and I saw the the young girl that was you know helping me check out and an attractive boy that was bagging the bags came by and I just saw the like the hormone level like shoot up and it's just fun to see it's fun to see those things that like I went through that and I experienced it but I was so oblivious at the time of what was happening and how I must have looked to
38:38 other people and there is something with age where you you look back and you just see oh I know what's going on right here I live that and I think we have our marketing heavy culture that is always trying to get the Next Generation that has the the next dollar to spend we still focus on the Next Generation that we can tend to devalue older Generations that maybe we'll see things that we don't see and I love more Eastern cultures that value age and value that wisdom and say you know I'm going to look to you because you've been 10 steps ahead of me this whole time right so I
39:14 would love to see the US become a little bit less individualistic and a little bit more um embracing of older Generations so so let me shift gears on on you a little bit um um when you you talked about how um people who lack humility live small lives and if you're trying to accomplish big things it it it living a small life is actually counterproductive so
39:51 talk more about that I'm curious to know what more about what you mean by that because I have an idea in my head as to maybe what you're talking about but I I'd like to know you know a broader perspective on that if you would yeah I mean I'll dip into uh Church culture again since that's what I I know that quite intimately and I think it's something interesting for for your for your listeners is that you know there's this there's this mentality that um most churches won't grow over 100 people um and that's that's the case like uh
40:26 but then there's some churches that will grow to a thousand people and that's where they kind of stay like they just kind of stay there right and people are always trying to figure out why does the church get to this certain level and stop and I have seen that it largely has to do with the capacity of the pasture to manage everything to control everything um most people can operate with 100 people and they can control that pretty well where you know I everything excellent will come through me and at some point it stops though I can no longer go past that because I have to be in control of everything some people they seem to break the rule and they get
41:01 to a thousand but it's the same thing they stop there because they have to be under in control of everything and often the thing that was the greatest asset while we were building something can be the thing that holds us back and that thing is usually our control because I mean I I have a high Eye For Excellence so in my business I I'm tempted to have my hand in everything and say you know hey run that through me run that idea through me send me that graphic and I want to control everything and I've had to learn that I can't do that if if it's going to grow Beyond me
41:36 um and not destroy me I have to start letting go of more things so that's one of the chapters actually in the book is the idea of you know letting go of control but how do you actually know what to let go of how do you know um you know what you should keep control because obviously there needs to be a level of control a level of managing and that's a really hard thing for a lot of people I tend to go back to the things that give me energy I try to not control but I try to have my hand in the things that don't I decide to trust people and say you know I've hired the right people and I'm going to trust that they're going to be able to manage that themselves and then hopefully at the point at which they need to expand and
42:13 let go of control to be able to do that as well right right so and you really you're you're hitting on the sort of classic challenge that a a business founder has right he he starts the business and he's it's he's he's he's it's everything but if the business is going to grow that founder needs to be able to let go of some areas of control and that's oftentimes why you see founders you know having to move on out of the business because they can't let go and it's a choice of either the business is going to collapse or the founder has to step aside and let you know so-called
42:50 Professional Management come in and and take the business to the next level or let them know or the or they're going to burn out trying to manage it which is often I mean I I think I was nearing that at some point Sunday socially grown quite a bit larger than I could manage by myself and I and I realized okay first of all it's not a side hustle because I started it as like a side hustle and then I'm like also I something needs to change here I need to bring in other people to hold up these pillars of the company things that I was I'm really good at them like I did really good I grew it to a really good size by myself but in
43:25 order to maintain and have healthy excitement about the business and just not burn out I needed to bring those people in it was it was it's it's it's always a struggle even if you've done it a thousand times before it's still a struggle because it is you're letting go of something like I can do this better than they can but you have to realize I gotta let go of that yeah so and you brought up an interesting point um that I think sometimes we miss in in in in our I don't mean self-centeredness in in a negative way I just mean we only have our perceptions and that is something that I may find very you know boring or dispiriting or energy draining
44:02 but you know someone else may find that to be quite fascinating and and and they'll be energized by it and so I'm actually I'm better off letting them do that thing right I mean it shocks me when I encounter those people I'll check in with employees sometimes I'm like are you sure you're really enjoying your job right now because I would hate doing what you're doing and they're like yeah I love it and you know there's so many other parts of management that go into making someone enjoy their job besides just the work but yeah it's it's shocking to see that there are people who love the things that I find Dreadful okay so I want to go now
44:37 um back but forward you mentioned when you talked about your mom so you said she's she was the kind of person who was or is fascinated by other people so do you think that was kind of inbuilt it was you know was is it was inherent in her was it a something that she built herself into how do you think that came about and like you I think that's an enormously desirable trait to have so for those of us who don't have it how
45:12 can we create that that that ability or that trade yeah unfortunately it was something built into her she was naturally that way but I remember my dad would always tell the story of a guy who was his pastor and this guy just he seemed he just loved people like he was he was that type of you know he would remember details about you he would always check in on you and my dad was saying he talked to him one time and asked him like man how you're just so naturally gifted that way and like I said actually I'm not I had to learn to be that way um so he taught himself how to be that
45:48 way and I do believe it's possible but what he would do is he would he he made it a a studying task he would write note cards of people's names and details about them and he would study them during the week and it's it's one of those things that whenever we create the discipline our hearts tend to kind of follow along with that it's like the people who work out right like anyone who's obsessed with working out they weren't always obsessed with it they got into it they built the discipline they saw the results of it and it changed their minds toward it and I think that can happen with us when it when it comes
46:23 to being genuinely interested in people is that um we can teach ourselves to be that way I remember uh how to win friends and influence people you know that's one of the tenets of of influencing people is being genuinely interested in people but same thing I think there's a bit in it about how to actually become interested in people and I do believe it's possible to learn but discipline is the key okay so we're I'm um wait a minute oh okay I was looking at the wrong thing I said okay we still have a few more minutes good um so next question those of us who are our parents
46:59 presumably we want to build resilient children right and we want to inspire um resiliency in our spouse um and yet it seems like those are the people we have in many ways the least influence on um I I don't know if you looked at this because but how would you recommend we convey you know the kind of ideas that we've been talking about to those closest to us our family members I mean I saw my
47:37 dad my dad was a pastor he was a great example of this um there's this notorious thing that pastor's kids are known of you know for you know going off the rails being massively rebellious being The Crazy Ones rejecting their parents and I can't say 100 because I have some great Pastor friends who've had kids who've rebelled and they've done what I'm going to suggest but for me it was really interesting to see how my dad lived his life obviously his lessons they still echo in my head but I I remember most things that I saw him do so he had just been invited to be this
48:14 pastor of this church and I went with the youth group to youth camp and I came back with blue hair and he had just become the pastor and his son comes back with blue hair I wasn't being rebellious I just thought it would be fun to get blue hair they the people at Camp had told me it washed out and two watches it didn't wash out do washes but I come back and he could have been so embarrassed and he could have you know gotten so mad at me but we believe that you only punish Rebellion you don't punish just foolishness right and he abided by
48:50 that he didn't let his embarrassment for a potential embarrassment let him act contrary to his values he was very consistent with his values what he what he believed in is what he acted on and I do believe kids see that more than anything is that you are consistent with your words because our words our words mean nothing you know like hey you know don't be don't be mean to people and then my dad gets mad at me and he's mean to me right like okay well obviously you don't believe that so consistency is so hard again going back to discipline is he he was slow to act and he would say okay I'm feeling
49:25 embarrassed right now but did my son do anything wrong no he didn't I'm not going to punish him uh he would frequently not punish me for things that other parents would destroy their kids for and he was like you know he's just being being a dumb kid right like so consistency I think is the key um doing what you want to teach them when they see you acting a certain way I believe kids are going to fall in line with that yeah and and so I I think I I agree with you with respect to kids and and I you know like with my daughter I do my best to you know practice that
50:01 um with you know I mean we all make mistakes right at times how do we work with our spouses on this right because they're they're not our our children they're meant to walk through life with us right how do we how do we do that what are your thoughts yeah I mean I'm still learning this I've been married 13 years as of three days ago um because I I my tendency is to try to teach my wife
50:36 because I think I'm pretty awesome and I think she should realize I'm pretty awesome too but I've tried to learn to submit my ideas to her um I I there's this idea of mutual submission frequently in the in the Bible you know one to another um so whenever I have something that I strongly believe is important for my career or for X in my life I say this is what I'm thinking I can I can only do what I can do right so I tell her this is what I'm thinking I should do this is why I think I should
51:12 do it but what do you think and legitimately so you know there have been many times I've been invited to speak at a conference and I'll say you know I think this would be good for my career but you know I don't I don't know I don't want to be you know away from you and my son so what do you think I should do and I leave it up I'm not going to get mad at her if she says you shouldn't go there have been so many times that she's told me to go right um I think that type of thing again is is action being modeled of you know when I value you so much that I'm willing to not do something because I love you and I care about a relationship
51:47 um again I still think actions speak louder than I mean as if I'm I'm the person who came up with a Sprite but actions actions will speak louder than words so you know I think a lot of times whenever our spouse doesn't get it it's because we're baby not able to model it properly we can do it at work but we can't do it at home right um being the same person at work as you are at home especially for guys who are very compartmental in the way we think right typically the stereotypical guy right uh it can be that way where we're like you know we'll act at work a certain way and then we can't act that same way at home so inconsistency across
52:22 is pretty important well so we're we're we are coming up close to the end of our time so I I want to make sure that you know if if I do a Shameless plug for your book so do you do I you know Kelly didn't send me a copy Do you happen to have a copy of the book you can I do don't burn out burn right right there so again available at don't burnout burnbrite.com I would highly recommend you take that assessment we've had people responding like wow this confirms some stuff that I've been hearing in counseling so it's it's a valuable test even if you don't read the book but I do believe there's actually actually value in the book as
52:57 well okay and um we'll put a link to to both the assessment and where the book can be bought in the show notes so that people can do that is is the book only available on your website or is it available at Amazon and all those other places too yeah Amazon audible Barnes and Noble audiobooks.com pretty much anywhere you buy a book you'll be able to find it okay so um I'm gonna answer the first part of my my last question which is how do we get started and how we get started I think would be you know buy the book take the assessment where do we go from there
53:34 once once we've done those two things how you know should we just like read the book straight through how how do we how do we get started in creating what amounts to Greater resilience in our lives yeah I mean the the assessment will give you one of the ten things that's really what the assessment get yields you and so it'll tell you what specific chapter to read so you can skip to it but I do believe there's a holistic approach to our life where you know you know each piece is not compartmentalized right each piece affects the other piece so you know work
54:09 on the thing that you feel like is burning you off the most but then move on to the next thing of saying you know what what okay now I have my boundaries in order but now do I need to release some control in certain areas um and how do I need to do that so you know take with with everything you know you climb Mount Kilimanjaro one step at a time right so take a tiny step and that step is going to be revolutionary but then there's a next step to take after that so that's what I would encourage you to do okay okay um is there a PL do you have a um besides your website do you have social media where people can contact
54:46 you yeah so if you if you work in a church and you think you want to see some funny videos about that I do that on Instagram I make uh reels that are just absolutely ridiculous but it's fun to do so uh Jonathan mom on Instagram um even if you don't work at a church and you're just curious about something hit me up I love responding to people I love talking to people again I'm an extrovert so that gives me life if I don't respond in a week you'll know that I'm extroverted out for a little bit but normally I respond pretty quickly okay we'll put I'll put that link in the show notes as well all right
55:22 um so Jonathan um I mean there there's even more to unpack here and uh we may I may have to have you come back and and and talk about some of the stuff I am I am going to take that assessment I I I do find those those kind of tools very very useful um it's hard to get insight into ourselves and yeah so especially it sounds like it's a pretty um easy tool to use and so uh um I'm going to take that and and sort of spread it around so um I'm gonna have you hang tight here for just a couple of minutes while I wrap it up and and uh
55:58 and and that is first of all to thank all of you for joining us out there in you know social media land um I appreciate you tuning in um please do consider getting um uh Jonathan and Jason's book um a lot you know more so than many of the guests I've had in a while um Jonathan and Jason are really looking at um that that term holistic it's they're really looking at the heart of what the three pillars of attainment are designed to do and and as I've said
56:34 before there this is not magic or this is not the only way you can look at these things this is just a hopefully a helpful way to sort of organize our thoughts and and and how we approach our lives but um I I encourage you uh like I said to to to get that and and to uh and to engage in this because so much of resiliency is is or so much of life is is about resiliency just took two um uh review a couple of things so um um humility discipline
57:10 self-awareness these are all factors that Jonathan identified that will help us on that journey to Greater resiliency and I think it is a journey it's not a place we're ever going to get to right it's a continuous um sometimes a struggle sometimes a delight but but I think if we if we have some basic principles in our mind we will make progress in getting there so that's I thank you for for like say tuning in I hope you'll find these thoughts useful we will be back again
57:47 next week starting on Monday at 10 A.M with trust and Estates weekly 10 a.m Pacific time on Tuesday will be the next edition of business lessons from the military at 11 A.M Pacific time and then um a week from today we will be back with the next episode of people making money and so I invite you to uh tune into all of the ways to wow shows and if you've missed any of them or if you um if you've seen Today's Show and you would really you know someone who would benefit from hearing what Jonathan had
58:23 to say um direct them to our YouTube channel um the way to wow I'm sorry youtube.com slash at the way to wow and you can see um this episode as well as many many other great speakers and and great ideas that people have shared over the many many episodes that we've done and while you're there maybe you'll subscribe Shameless plug for the channel so um Jonathan I I want to thank you one last time for for joining us and and congratulations on the new book it it's it appears to be adding to an Ever
58:59 enlargening Canon um and and that's terrific I've only read I've only written one book and you're right you you you do not make money writing books but hopefully you share good good ideas and good knowledge so thanks thanks for coming on the show and thank you for having me yeah you're very very welcome and just want to sign off as I always do by uh reminding her Marie darling you are and ever will be my bell so you all have a wonderful rest of the day and and rest of the week and look forward to seeing you next week