The WAY to WOW Shows
Seek Mentors, Be Proactive – Here’s How
December 6, 2023
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[0:13] good afternoon and welcome to people making money one of the way to wow shows I'm your host Kevin bemel and with me today is my guest Aon Holtzman and I'm going to introduce uh Ain in in a moment but you know we always have a few kind of housekeeping chores here at the beginning of the show um and that is first of all to remind you that we're here every Wednesday um however starting next week um we will be broadcasting at 10:00 a. Pacific time that'll line us up with all my other shows so we can see each other at 10:00 amm Monday through

[0:49] Wednesday uh Pacific time of course that's 1 100 PM eastern time and uh Erin you're on Central Time right so it's it's that would be noon your time um so we're we're we're doing that to make it easier for us to you know consistently be together um and so as you know as we're heading to the end of the year um it seems like it's it's been sort of accountant time um here on the various way to wow shows um but we're really um to my guest today Aaron he's he's an accountant with a Twist um and

[1:27] and and just by way of introduction um I met Aaron through Von Marie Thomas who was my guest last week who also isn't is kind of an accountant with a Twist um I I I I I've joked I think with with both you and Von Marie that people have this idea that accountants are boring and and all these things like no not in my experience I was I was part of the California Society of CPAs for many many years back before my Navy days and we had the most fun events the most successful events people loved coming to

[2:05] our parties and our networking events um and I think it was um largely because um accountants are relationship oriented people and um when all is said and done I think you have the most fun with people that are really interested in having a relationship with you um and so with without further Ado um I I I do want to introduce to you um Aon Holtzman he's hailing from Austin Texas beautiful beautiful city um in in Texas I've been

[2:40] there a few times and Aaron welcome to the way to wow show thanks for coming on yeah thank you so much Kevin and yeah it's uh I'm from New Jersey originally so having moved to Austin three years ago uh it still astounds me that it's in the 70s today and we're well into December now right here in La too we're we're in the 70s so so Erin as as I typically do on on people making money I'd like to have you go back as far into your history as you're willing to go um

[3:16] because I I know for myself if you had asked you know eight-year-old Kevin uh what what do you want to be when you grow up it would not have included any I don't think anything that I've done professionally um May maybe with the exception of joining the Navy but it wouldn't have been joining the Navy as a Chaplain certainly um and and so I'm always curious to hear about what what did you if you're if you you know care to share it what did you think you wanted to do when you were a kid you know growing up and and and thinking you know because that's such a common question you know what are you gonna be

[3:52] when you grow up yeah uh it you're going to laugh when I say what I want to be because it started out when I was you know you know much younger uh you know like Middle School time it was uh or Elementary School time was like you know I want to be a firefighter or a police officer you know like someone that helps people and then you know I started getting into business and I actually grew up down near Atlantic City and I was like ah one day I'm gonna own a casino that was that was my dream back in the day yeah um nowhere near a

[4:27] accounting well I don't know kind of you know there's numbers there's slots you know so my my mother um this is going back a lot of years now worked for a fellow by the name of Frank Abram off and his big project was um building a casino hotel um thing in in Atlantic City he worked on that for years um so I remember talking to Frank about that um I I i' I've never been to Atlantic City but uh I I can certainly appreciate the allore so mean oh go ahead sorry no go ahead go ahead yeah oh I was say it's

[5:02] hard to be you know uh you know gambling in the beaches you know it's really nice in the summer yeah it's it's it's it's got to be Las Vegas gambling in the desert right yeah yeah at least during summertime right yeah exactly so so you know you're thinking okay I I want to own a casino I want to be involved in this kind of so um where did you know where did you go from you said that was kind of junior high or I yeah I would say that's when I was still like naive like naive and ignorant if if you will like you know once I got to actual realistic expectations um and realizing you know what I ultimately wanted to be

[5:37] honestly I started pursuing um more of an idea of uh actually education uh so in high school um I wanted like you know I went to Ruckers University and on my way going to college I said you know there are two tracks in front of me one will be more business oriented and one will be um educational um I loved history growing up um that was always my most um exciting course for me to participate in and uh when I went to ruter um I said you know either I'll come out of this with a business degree or um an education degree and while I was there I

[6:12] kind of decided hey you know I could always retire uh with a lot of money after done uh performing well in business and go be a teacher go be that you know Mr feny if you will uh that history teacher that you know just lays down some wisdom for uh the kids but I always loved like mentoring people educating people and uh you know just being a leader and I think that's what teachers are be it in in the classroom or being a teacher professional yeah yeah I agree with that 100 perc um so so you're you're kind of on this dilemma teaching business how

[6:49] did you eventually resolve that that dilemma and and go in what I assume is you know was was the business Direction yeah I think it really boil down to kind of what I where I wanted to hustle first if that makes sense um I I knew I wanted to work hard uh put in a lot of hours and uh build something um I always knew I wanted to build something um and you know being an educator it involves I would say as much if not more work just in a different fashion and you know I had a lot of friends um that actually went into education and they're freaking awesome um but one of the

[7:25] things I kind of saw too was it especially you know the past years it's been kind of thankless and um you know I realized again I'd rather be a teacher with um nothing to lose if that makes sense uh so like yeah go ahead and fire me uh if you want to uh I don't care I don't need this job I'm doing it because I want to be here which and I would say most teachers are there because they want to be there they're not doing it because it's the most lucrative career um but you know I wanted to build something before potentially pivoting out of it right yeah that's how I gave that decision so what did what did you end up studying at Ruckers did you end

[8:00] up getting a business degree or yeah I uh ended up getting a bachelor's in management uh which is the most generic Business Degree you can get um I and I remember uh taking my uh my courses and I've had a couple really good mentors at the school and they actually pulled me aside and said listen you have a lot of intangibles you have you know you're good at speaking you're good at leading um while I was at Ruckers I was the president of my fraternity and I was a director at this massive philanthropic organization so I always purs to the highest level if you will um and that's just kind of My Philosophy if I'm if I'm in I'm 100% in um otherwise you know I

[8:38] I'm not going to pursue it at all um and so they told me listen you have these abilities and skills but you need to get technical in this day and age you have to have a technical skill and um I kind of happened into accounting um being a management major undergrad I envisioned going getting my MBA and pursuing of Consulting I liked um the idea of being a problem solver I like the idea of working on a number of different engagements a number of different clients a number of different Industries and and to your point earlier in the

[9:13] show you know I thought accountants were boring I thought they were just chain smoking cigarettes with adding machines and those green visors um and uh I actually had the privilege to intern at um a boutique accounting firm in Manhattan during my uh summer uh between junior uh between sophomore and junior year up to that point I was working in the hospitality industry anywhere from you know being a bus boy to a sh to a cook to a waiter and um and getting an internship really kind of made me aware of hey there's this whole world of

[9:48] public accounting which you know isn't private accounting PRI private is you know more in-house staff account that type of stuff and I realize public accounting especially in the world of auditing which is is what I got the exposure to was very similar to Consulting and um I realized that firstly it had it checked the boxes on different clients different Industries different projects um and I found that I was able to do the work I had a knack for it I found it to be interesting um and I also graduated in 2011 so during my tenure in college I was looking around me and going who's actually

[10:24] getting a career out of school and there's one thing you'll never find which is a starving CPA if you have your CPA license there will always be a job for you somewhere and so that's kind of what led me to kind of pivot and pursue um you know my career in public accounting so so you you mentioned that you got involved in doing auditing and and and were very good at it and I real as I'm listening to I'm realizing I wonder how many people even know what that is yeah um and because as I think

[10:59] about it I I I've got an idea in my head what auditing is but I've never been an accountant so I'm not even sure if my idea is accurate so if if you would kind of you know tell us explain to us what does it mean to be auditing a company and and what are those interactions like um so people can understand that better absolutely one quick thing though um I was not I'm not to say terrible but I had no idea what I was doing when I first started in this indust and I I just want to say that too because at the end of the day and when I look to hire people I don't care about what you know

[11:35] because you could have had the most technical background in school you're going to learn on the job and it's all about attitude work ethic and and just you know being a good person and a good team member um for that's how I succeed and that's how you know that's who I look for so I'm just telling if there's any prospective people looking to get into accounting don't think you got to know you know uh Gap inside and out or the Internal Revenue code inside and out um yeah so what an a what Auditors do and I'm just going to kind of say blanket statement auditor Auditors enable the financial institutions of the world to

[12:11] operate what an audited financial statement is is and what an audit ultimately provides is an opinion an opinion by the auditing firm saying it is our opinion that the the subsequent pages that that are included in this financial audit are free from material misstatements and that really means that if you're a user of the financial statement as such as an investor investing in the stock as a venture capitalist firm potentially making seed investment as a lender and for most of my clients were working with banks getting multi-million dollar uh loans as

[12:46] a lender getting comfortable with the numbers you're going to be seeing otherwise anyone could walk into a bank with a piece of paper saying hey these are my assets this is my income and and without an opinion um by a reputable auditing firm it it doesn't mean anything so that's really what I would say enables the the system to work um and unfortunately people only ever hear about audit firms when things uh you know hit the fan such as Enron um or in most recently flx but that's what

[13:22] happens when things don't work everything else has been working for the longest time and it really is what gives um again you know Financial financial institutions and investors confidence in the numbers of the businesses they're investing in albe it either in debt or Equity so so a business will prepare generally speaking an income statement or an income expense statement and some kind of balance sheet right and so as an auditor you'll go in and you'll review the income expense statement the balance sheet and you'll and you'll determine

[13:58] whether or not there are um significant errors in them is is that correct that's precisely it um and it's funny too because it says to be free from Material misstatements which means we're not the auditor isn't even aining stating that everything is 100% accurate they're merely stating hey we didn't find anything big enough to change the numbers um and you know that's really what an audit is it's it's a risk based approach to picking apart the number and there's a plethora of testing and statistical modeling to figure out okay

[14:34] what is going to be the areas we look at what are going to be areas that are not high risk and then how do we ultimately make sure that we're comfortable with the numbers on the balance sheet and the profit and law statement um and I mean that's that's a little I don't know if technical is the right word for it but I mean really being in the weeds as an auditor as a staff and even up to a manager really what we're doing is we're walking hand inand with the client and just getting the proof um to substantiate the numbers they're giving us and um you know having good skills with Excel being communicative um asking

[15:10] intelligent questions I mean um one of the first things I learned earlier on the job was you don't just go to a client and go uh you know one of one of the forms of an audit is uh you know analytical review you know things fluctuate why they fluctuate and uh you know the the the not not boring the lazy question would be oh well this went up higher than last year why and that would do to anyone on the receiving end of that that would you know frustrate them because they're paying professionals a lot of money um they want they want to have intelligent questions and that's

[15:45] where you learn friends and that's where you learn relationships between the different numbers on the different accounts saying hey I saw inventory went up so did your AP okay you guys frontloading more in anticipation of future sales um and that's a much better question than why did inventory go up um so you know learning the relationships learning how to talk to people learning how to give them respect um I I'll never forget one of my friends asked me like what's the worst part about your job because he's he was also an auditor and the worst part about my job when I when I was an auditor because I don't do that anymore um was if I do a good job and I

[16:23] find a mistake and I find a big mistake no one is happy no one is excited no one Rings it's a boiler room no one's ringing the bell going oh we did it it's it's everyone it's it's pencils down you're now in the room with a partner talking with the client saying yeah we got a big problem here um you know it's still you still did a good job you did a phen phenomenal job but it's it's very much uh the antithesis of what you would hope would happen when you you know you do your job right um so you know Finding mistakes and and not um you know and and

[16:58] again speaking to people that have made the mistake saying hey this is what happened this is how to fix it and you know just taking a proper approach not you messed up this is you know type of thing because that doesn't do anyone any good and the goal is always to just get to the solution never focus on the problem never focus on whose fault it was it will always get to where do we need to get to be able to just move on and uh alleviate whatever issues we have so I mean it kind of sounds like you're sort of a private investigator in some

[17:34] ways I mean you're sort of through the stuff and and seeing is there is there anything here that ought not to be here or that is here that you know shouldn't be I mean that's what it sounds like and and um um from from that standpoint how so I'm I'm I should I should preface this by saying I'm a I'm a big big detective fiction reader right um you know one of my my daughter's been asking me about it recently and and she says you know Daddy what makes a good detective story and I

[18:10] said when I can't figure it out in the first 10 pages I've read so many of them right I I I kind of know how these things work out based on experience so I imagine that um having experience in particular Industries as an auditor that has an impact on the quality of the job you can do um would would you speak to that um aspect of it yeah absolutely I mean and honestly like if uh anyone that's watching this uh is curious about the profession and a

[18:46] lot of people go think oh I you know what I actually want to go into forensics Financial forensics most Financial forensic experts start as an auditor and they cut their teeth on the audit side uh because there is a part of fraud that actually not saying we there's always fraud but we do some light fraud detection we look for anomalies that's a part of the statistical modeling and just a part of the audit in general and um you know understanding the industry and being able to know okay um you know H how is this real uh you know one of my clients

[19:21] was a tequila company and we had to wrap our arms around the fact that they had uh you know uh they were planting Agave trees in Mexico and how do we substantiate that as an asset in the inventory and we were able to track the payments in and I said well if we were to fly to the farm how would we know um you know which trees were yours which weren't the were the others and the controller was telling us well you know the farmers put a rock in front of AR trees fortunately it wasn't a material line item on the balance sheet so we didn't have to go that deep much deeper than that but uh that's that and that's

[19:57] also a very extreme case but really you know understanding the industry understanding what's real um you know one of my favorite things to do as an auditor was the inventory observation um for you know actual inventory we would go to the warehouse you we would be ripping open boxes and make sure it's actually there um because you know uh if a company wanted to perpetuate fraud or or maybe not even at the the high level but you know at mid level like there could have been theft occurring you know on the staff side where they would just empty out a box and then put an empty box back on the carton type of thing so you know making sure that the stuff is

[20:32] real is that that's L what an audit is and uh and again you know knowing the industry is so important um you know my background was in the commercial business side of things so restaurants Hospitality Quick Service restaurants and a lot of Manufacturers wholesalers um and retailers uh but you know there's also nonprofit There's real estate there's Financial Services broker dealers and you know um I liked my industry because I even though it was a very broad type of thing I was working with jewelry companies linen companies uh Quick Service restaurants um liquor

[21:09] companies and um so different Industries but still having a very similar concept of uh their balance sheet had AR and inventory and that is what you know I would say those are two of the hardest pieces of auditing to always wrap your arms around and uh that was the most fun for me cool cool I love that they have a rock in yeah exactly I mean and I'm sure the system works by the way you know from perspective right but they're they're not thinking about you know how do I verify this so so you you've got your you know you you've got your degree at

[21:44] ruter you you studied and passed the CPA exam um and then from from there where where did you go from there you mentioned it's you know it's all CPAs can always get a job so what was that process like um you know getting getting that that first job well honestly for again for me I was just a very fortunate individual um I interned at that Boutique firm I did two two summers there and I remember my second summer was coming to an end and I was still a management major and my plan was to go get a fifth year uh you know

[22:19] just do a one-year master's program with a focus on accounting and uh I remember my manager said hey you know we're going to offer you a job when you graduate after your senior year and I told him I said listen you know just so you guys know I'm not an accounting major um I want to go get my fifth year should I defer into my fifth year and they said come work for us full-time you go to school part uh part-time and so I I you know I had a very non-traditional um Step into the industry and to be frank most firms that uh most other accounting firms would even look at me because I was a management major they wouldn't they wanted to see that I had a master's in accounting or at least a master's

[22:55] degree with an accounting major and so firstly that led to a massive chip in my shoulder because I felt like I had something to prove um and secondly now having my own firm I don't care if you're an accounting major or not you know I learned and that's why I was saying I didn't know anything when I first started and I thought that was because I only had a limited amount of accounting classes but then I you know I've trained enough people and looking back at my peers I'm like no no one knows anything you know uh you know there there're always the outliers but

[23:30] at the end of the day it's all about just I mean I showed up at 7 in the morning I'd leave at 78 at night um and that led to me just you know people giving me odd like unique projects outside the scope of just the regular um work I was given and um so again my my my stepping into the industry was non-traditional ironically um I actually have an extra year on most of my peers because I graduated a four-year degree and started immediately in public accounting where most of my peers would do a fifth year get get their masters and then start so ironically by not

[24:05] being traditional track I have an extra year of um of H career over them um go ahead oh I and I was just going to say and the first like five years out of school four or five years was just brutal for me because it was just work full-time and get my Master's Degree and get my CPA license so it it was a grind but you know I was willing you know fortunately willing and able to to do it oh so okay so that that was going to be my next question so how did you get your so you got your CPA license while you were working for this firm yeah I would

[24:42] say most most accounts most CPAs do get their license while working and um it it's very different than you know other professions such as an attorney where you can't really practice law um you know without your your you know passing the bar as a CPA especially as an auditor but even a TA tax preparer you don't need to have the CPA license until you're much more advanced in your career if you're at a big firm if you want to start your own firm having a CPA is pretty much required otherwise you can't call yourself a CPA firm um but you know

[25:17] that's and that's one of the reasons I you know I recommend people like if you're going to be in this industry you got to get your license that is job security and just it gives you so many more opportunities um but yeah no my first couple years was just showing up moving up the ladder um and really just weekends and and week nights were uh you know studying for my Master's program and studying for the CPA and um you know I I I I kind of call that my life was on Hiatus I was just a machine for a couple years but you know it's very much you know deferring pleasure uh for um for um

[25:53] for paying in the short term for you know a much better lifestyle down the road that's really what was yeah so I I think there's a there's an important lesson here you you said you know you took a non-traditional path to getting into accounting um so as an outsider someone who's not familiar you know with with how accountants get where they go it seems to me that you had an interest and you pursued that interest while you were in college and and that interest developed and it was obvious to the people that

[26:29] you worked for that here's someone who can benefit our our firm and you know traditional credentials okay whatever who cares um you know Aaron is is is someone who's who's who's going to do well by our firm um I'm just I'm curious what you think about that am I am I off base or no no you're you're hitting it right on the head and again for me I was just lucky Again The Firm my friend's father father was one of the partners at the firm so they gave me just a shot and you know for anyone that's listening

[27:05] that's looking get the industry uh you know if you get a shot if you get an opportunity to get your foot in the door you know take it um and that's why I'm saying I was just a very fortunate individual because firstly I never had exposure to the industry I might not have found out that I had a passion for it without getting the initial opportunity um but the thing too was it was a boutique firm in Manhattan Boutique firm could be 50 people in other cities 50 person firm could be you know the biggest firm in that city um but you know if you're a non-traditional accountant or potentially pursuing a non-traditional pivot into the

[27:41] accounting industry um most big firms um are not doing that um they want to see the more pedig I don't if pedigree is the right word but they want to see the traditional conformist accountant um so finding those smaller um you know firms where they have you know at least five to 10 people working there so you don't want to just go to a glorified H&R Block you want to go and uh you know do that type of work um so I would just say don't you don't have to go to Big Four you don't have to go top National firm um Again The Firm I was with 50 people

[28:17] they still clients across the US and I actually went from that firm to a regional to a midsize top 30 firm and I was working on the same sized client it was just at a bigger firm so you know that's you know finding a boutique firm literally is kind of what it implies it's a a firm of a smaller group of individuals that punch above their weight um and and again with a smaller firm just comes more flexibility more personality where you know uh where you can be a non-conforming uh entrance into the industry um and the thing too is you

[28:52] know I've heard big uh big four firms actually recruiting not accounting students now for certain things and um unfortunately in this industry too everyone complains about the pipeline saying oh there's no one going into the industry and I'm and you know I don't blame students for not wanting to go in Industry because it's a five-year master's degree to go work investor banking hours um while while making 60 Grand a year starting so you know why why would you do put yourself through all that um you know if if that's where you're going to start and you know used to be the

[29:28] long-term value Prospect of listen you're going to have a really good job um but even at larger firms that's changing so you know again I'm trying to build a firm differently where the old model of hey you're going to have a good career here no matter what is going to happen but also I like finding non-accounting students because frankly they're the ones that you know when you meet someone you go wow you're not the typical type of account I would expected yeah because you know we didn't go to school for accounting initially we we discovered our passion for it so I'm I I sense kandidly that you're

[30:07] you're being a at least a little bit modest you said well you know my friend's dad was a partner in the firm and he got me in I I but I can't imagine that he went to his son and said do you know some guy who wants to you know work at our firm you know what I'm saying there there must then right you you must have I don't know talked to your friend and and somehow the spark of maybe you know working at you know his dad's firm came there and then you had to meet the dad or he had to have you had to have met him at some point and he had to have thought you know this guy has something

[30:42] on the ball um you know he's he's at least he's not gonna you know cause our firm to close down right so if you don't mind well I I suspect there were some of those points there and I and and the reason I'm really drilling down on this is because I think many of us sell ourselves short and and we we kind of brush those things off as luck but I I but I think we actually make our luck in in a way because of how we present ourselves how open we are to Opportunities or relationships or whatever so I'm just

[31:18] I'm just curious if that kind of strikes any thoughts on your part no absolutely I I would say you know I did ask you know I knew my friend's father was like you know I was proactive you're you're absolutely right um but you know at the same time and the reason I say fortunate lucky you know there's a quote by someone famous and I'm going to put the quote it's like the more I do the more I put myself out there the more things I try to Lucky are I am you know yeah um but you know at the end of the day I do say there is a bit of fortunateness there because also you know I grew up

[31:53] with you know being told it's not about who you know it's about how good of a person person you are how good of a work year you are and honestly it's the complete opposite it's all about who you know at least that's what will get you in the door I would not be where I am right now if I was a terrible accountant if I was just a like you know not a hard worker you know so I I'm not going to Discount the fact that I deserve to be there and I worked to deserve my spot there um but you know and and I won't discount the fact that I was proactive to

[32:28] push for that you know that little crack in the door to get me in um but it still boiled down to who you knew and again he frankly I was very lucky because I didn't know any other accountants um there you know and um again I wouldn't even thought to do that if I wasn't talking to my friend and you know that type of a thing so you know yeah you got to be proactive for sure um and uh you know just there I'll say this too you know there have been so many times in my career and

[33:03] life both personally and professionally I just go God this is serendipitous like just I've met people at the perfect time and again you know it could be um you know the the fatalism the fatalistic thought of 1700s or you can actually go well what was Aaron doing to have met that person at that point in time and so I think that's really what it is you know I definitely do put myself out there um and I've gotten so much better at it but kid in in college you know I had no confidence I had no idea what I was doing so you know I remember uh when I showed up uh

[33:39] for the the interview for the internship and that's how I knew I kind of had it like I was going to get my shot to take uh the manager who uh interviewed me was like ah says here you're a baker baking donuts and they just kind of laughed a little bit because I had no real business experience they just knew that you know I work work my hands uh till they got calloused and I show up and you know do everything um but that's that's how that's where everyone starts um it's just not it's just not a mail room anymore you don't work up from the mail room anymore you just got to get in and you know find mentors and work hard you

[34:14] know so you're you you spent time at the boutique firm then from there you said you moved on to a regional firm so you know let's let's kind of move on with your story now um you know after the how do how what what caused you to want to move from the boutique firm to the the larger firm yeah and honestly every time I've left my I I've only had two W2 jobs since leaving College before I my paying myself um and both times I left it was very hard because uh the people I worked for were just good people good mentors um but the

[34:50] reason I left my first firm was really because I wanted to just be a part of a bigger organization um I was young you know I was uh you know like 23 at the time and you know at the firm I was the youngest person by 5 years and um I felt like you know I I wouldn't have more fun for lack of a better uh concept you know um you know other firms had I was one of like maybe five or six staff other firms would have hundreds of staff and like you know I I just wanted to to be a part of something bigger the IT department at my first firm was also a tax manager and

[35:25] he was a very grumpy individual uh so the bigger firm had a formal it department so you know um wanting to pursue that is really what it was and you know I remember you know when I left my the first firm like you know telling my managers I was leaving um you know it was it was a hard conversation just because you know it wasn't there it wasn't because of them you know it was really just I needed to have a different type of opportunity um and I I'll say that too again for anyone listening like finding good mentors in your in your wherever you are whatever industry is just so important

[36:01] and a mentor doesn't have to be a direct supervisor to you some of the best mentors I've had have been people I've never even worked with before but um and it's actually better that way because maybe you're working for a manager or a partner or a director and you have a mentor who's at the same level just in a totally different practice area and you can say Hey listen I have a problem with my my guy or girl and I maybe not even a problem but I need to have a conversation with them how if I were going to talk to you about this thing what would you want to hear and what would what what's on the table what could possibly happen um so you know finding those mentors has just been so

[36:37] important but sorry long long way of saying I just wanted to be at a bigger firm I wanted to again just be a part of a bigger team um and that that's ultimately what led me to um The Firm um that I went to was called markx panth um so that was a top Regional firm in Manhattan um two years ago they merged with ciz but um you know I went from a firm of 50 people to a firm of 700 people oh wow okay yeah okay um so so now you're at the larger firm and how you know what was what was that

[37:13] like and and what um compelled you or impelled you to move on from there yeah so it's hard for me to not hard for me to talk about the tenure but like there's so much to talk about uh Mark's path but you know I was there for over seven years and in the world of public accounting that's a that's a lifetime and that's just a testament to the mentors and opportunities I've had there um so you know while during my time there I was on a part of a bunch of different internal teams uh so I got to do specialty projects I got to meet people outside of my practice area again I found mentors outside of my direct

[37:50] reports and again I had Mentor good mentorship from my direct reports and whenever I do recruiting even for my firm now but I was a big proponent of recruiting for my previous firm I would tell people listen like I would tell the students you're interviewing the person across the table from you as well because at the end of the day you know you're not working for the firm you're working for that partner and that's going to be the person who's going to make you the best professional you can be and if you don't think that person is going to do that for you then then either try to see if there's a different partner you can work for or don't go to that firm it's still at the end a very

[38:27] personal situation and that goes for any business I mean you could go work um at Google or Amazon but if you're a direct uh supervisor who's supposed to be mentoring you is terrible you know it doesn't matter that you're at Amazon Google PWC KPMG so you know just find making sure that you know culturally and and and um you know you're going to be a cultural fit and you're going to be with people that you want to be with because we spend more time with our co-workers than with our families um but yeah so I I had a phenomenal time uh during my tenure at marks panth and I was partner track I was frankly ready to kind of

[39:03] just stay in for the Long Hall um but honestly it kind of boiled down to I always had that entrepreneurial itch I always wanted to own that casino you know um and you know I just knew that I needed to I needed to push myself I was very comfortable my life was my life was great my life still is thank God great um but you know complacency like comfort and I I I believe like you're not meant to be comfortable all the time you know you're supposed to be appreciative and grateful but not comfortable um because you're

[39:39] always supposed to be growing and um I was growing there I was I was definitely uncomfortable in certain aspects but my life was uh very planned if you will you know I was from New Jersey my friends and family were there um I met my wife we were living in Hoboken New Jersey and I'm like I know what the next 30 Years is going to look like for my life um and that was and it was going to be a beautiful life uh but it was also terrifying because I you know I wanted my life to be an adventure and so that's actually what led my wife and I to move to Austin Texas from new New York New Jersey um I was fortunate enough to have

[40:16] my firm be okay with me working remotely um while I was down here in Austin but it it's I still had that itch and um so you know I I went the entrepreneurial way and I you know I said goodbye to people that I've worked with for almost a decade you know great great individuals and again I did it you know I like to think I did it the right way um you know in the world of public accy when you leave a firm if you're going to another firm you're pretty much saying that you don't have faith in that firm and or you only care about money and or

[40:52] your your mentors are not good so when I told them that I'm leaving to start my own firm it's there weren't any hard feelings surrounding that because and I express them very much so that they they're good people and like it's it's just that there's something I need or something I need to try that I'll never be able to get from this situation and so you know that's really ultimately what happened and again we left on good terms we actually um you know we were actually referred some work from my previous firm because there were conflicts and they said listen you know

[41:27] we know you're good um and and you know you left the right way so you know here's here's a couple clients if you want them and you know that doesn't always happen but that just goes to you know doing everything the right way being forthcoming you know when my partner my partner actually and I met together at the previous firm we quit on the same day um and we started our firm together um and you know we were talking about how what do we tell our our bosses you know what do we tell our mentors uh what we're going to do we just say hey we have an opportunity we're going to leave um and let them

[42:03] find out on LinkedIn that we started our own firm do we fight do we quit together do we quit separately you know and you know we ultimately came to the conclusion of we're going to just be upfront with them we we called our partners together and said we're leaving to start our own firm and doing it that way just ripped the Band-Aid off but it also you know took out any anxiety over why are these two guys leaving and and also understand like you know I I I'm just a big proponent of yeah you're GNA have an uncomfortable conversation just just do it just do it don't don't lie

[42:40] don't don't be ambiguous you know I mean there there's definitely times for that as well U but I'm very much the guy that's like you know what I'm going to have the uncomfortable conversation so we can get better from here and and we did and we've we've and you know we have a I have a great relationship with everyone that I used to work with fortunately so you you've referred to mentors several times and um a thought occurred to me that I I I want to kind of throw out to you um and that is it seems to

[43:16] me you made good mentors somehow um first first of all your your um sense of appreciation for them um your your intentionality in in um seeking out their mentorship it would seem like they would have had to have been good mentors by virtue of just those two things so if you would talk talk a little bit more how did you

[43:54] decide who you would seek mentorship from how did you build those relationships um you know let's peel the onion for us on that yeah I think this is a really key issue no that's that's a good question and I'll say this too you know I've had some bad mentors or Bad Bosses because if you're a bad boss you're not a mentor you know and I've had some direct reports that made me want to almost quit on the spot um at both firms mind you so you know it's not always Rosy but it's always you know as long as there's more good than bad that's always the most important thing

[44:29] um I I would say you know at least at my you know my most recent firm the two partners I work the most with um were very good mentors but that's because you know they were two very I I would say very wellestablished Partners in The Firm one was very established um head of the entire Practice Group the other one was um uh when I started he was a new partner and moved his way up relatively quickly closing business and bringing on clients and doing a lot of technical work so they both frankly did just demanded the most out of their staff and

[45:04] um you know I was a I was a part of a team that kind of prided itself on that we always we we worked really hard we had frankly very demanding uh bosses but with that came the mentorship um so that piece is kind of I don't know if happen stance is the right word but it's more so when I say you're interview your bosses that's what it was I interviewed with them and I said okay these are you know two good individuals I want to work with um and that's where I got you know my Hands-On work mentorship you know where I'm going to teach you how to be a good accountant

[45:40] and then my other mentors which were just outside of the practice areas that just came about by again participating in other firm functions um putting myself out there in one case I just went into the guy's office I knocked on the door said Hey listen you know um I'm in this different Practice Group but you know I would just like to know a little bit more about yourself and what you do he did he did real estate investment trusts REITs and he was a tax guy very different than doing manufacturing audit and um you know he just just being able to talk uh and and we actually connected

[46:15] um you know that way and also on recruitment I was doing a lot of recruiting um and I would do recruitment fairs with him um and so just finding those those I call them informal mentors because I would say a formal Mentor is someone who you're reporting to every day and the informal ones are the ones that you build outside of your direct reports and again I I was able to get um a lot of um meetings and relationships outside of my direct reports by doing the extracurricular stuff and again that all boils down to you don't just show then

[46:50] do the N9 to5 you gota you got to do more than that you got to say hey who needs help somewhere else even outside the practice area I'm really good with Excel what can I help someone else with I don't even have to understand tax to be able to do Financial modeling or data manipulation and that's kind of that's how I found people outside of my direct reports um and to that point you know I'm going to them saying listen I feel like you know I should be making more money what's the salary ranges and this is before um New York City required uh job postings to list salary ranges and you know one of my mentors just picked

[47:26] up a phone call AGR said hey thinking of hiring a supervisor you know what's uh the salary rrange that we would look for for something like that and they said that and then he said thanks hung up and said there you go and so I knew I was within the range at least and I knew where in the range I was you know that kind of stuff is so important because I couldn't I that would have been a very uncomfortable conversation for me to go to my boss because I I would go well am I being paid enough I don't know like yeah so I I would definitely say it it all blows down to it's going to be what you make of it um it's it's all going to bowow down to you do in in a

[48:02] certain aspect make your own opportunities but um when opportunities do present itself if you say you got to say yes you know I I I've had another guest on on my show he's actually very long-standing friend of mine lives in Houston now he's with NASA um and his his life long philosophy has been just say yes he comes out I think you do too whole sort of just say no you know the anti-drug campaign right and and it kind of gets in your subconscious right but the reality is in life much more comes

[48:37] from just saying yes than from than from the opposite so it's it's I mean that's how this is happening to be honest Kevin I mean I got connected with v Marie because I got connected with an attorney who who connected with an attorney like you're you're a fourth degree removed I'm on the show because you offered me the opportunity and I said yes and yeah um you know it's so easy and again saying yes all the time is not for everyone some people want to just have their neto5 and go home and that's totally fine and recognizing who you are profession is also really important too um but it's you know especially in the world of accounting and any real

[49:12] profession you know if you put yourself out there and you do it right you do it properly you don't act flamboyant or rude and you act genuinely you know it'll come back positively to you for sure yeah so you decide you and your partner decided to launch this entrepreneurial venture um talk to us about what that's been like um you know I mean yeah all of a sudden it's it's uh um you know like jumping out of the airplane without a without a uh a parachute right yeah it was it was yeah

[49:48] it was terrifying for sure it's funny too because everyone's going to say oh you should have started your own business yesterday I'm like no start your business when you damn well pleased you know what I mean um and I remember when we decided to go the entrepreneur route we actually acquired a small CPA practice out here in the Austin area and we and we were both very comfortable we had very comfortable salaries um as I was saying and I remember the underwriter at the uh that was working with the B the underwriter at the bank that was working with us in the SBA he was like these guys are projecting in their in their proformer financials to take a third of what they're taking home

[50:23] now why are they quitting their jobs to do this and I you know I got a little personally offended to that because I'm like well you just don't understand the whole Vision you don't understand the dream I'm like like you're you're the nine-o-five person and again there's nothing wrong with that but you know that I'm like I'm gonna prove you wrong and I end up making more our first year last year than I was at my previous job but um you know the first year was terrifying for sure because for me I again I grew up as an auditor I had some exposure to tax but um you know I went from doing maybe a handful of returns a year and then much larger projects to we

[50:58] did over 600 tax returns our first year and last year we did almost a thousand this this year right now and so and this year was so much better I felt so much more comfortable and we had a team this year uh our first year was me um my partner we had a part-time admin and then the seller stayed on as a contractor and again it was just like oh my God is this going to work um and you know it wasn't it wasn't it was more so were we going to grow we weren't concerned about our ability to service the clients or anything like that um it was just that okay I'm working 60 70 80 hours a week um just just because I'm

[51:35] doing everything and um also you know we right around when we quit our jobs uh right before we quit I bought a house and the day we were moving into my new house my wife found out we were pregnant um so and my my partner he was his wife was super pregnant when we quit our jobs um well ironically so he was a new dad in December uh January 1 was when we started doing our own thing my daughter was due on sing de Mayo May 5th and I think even non-acc accountants know that April 15th is a major deadline right

[52:10] well on on April 9th uh my wife and I are at home we're watching you know like some show on HBO it's 10 o'clock at night and she goes Aaron um I can't stop going to the bathroom and if you want to talk talk about just extreme denial uh I you know I was like oh our daughter's head is low you know you're drinking too much water uh no in reality her water broke and again still in extreme denial we call the doctor like yeah come on down to the hospital I'm going yeah they're just going to tell you you're drinking too much water the Midwife looks at my wife and she's like yeah you

[52:45] guys are going to have a kid I go yeah in three and a half weeks and I'm like no tomorrow or today or tomorrow very likely and my wife just started weeping just C crying and just going I'm so sorry I know it's the tax deadline and you know it's again you want to talk about just like a moment in time that is just like you know I'm going through my first tax season with my first firm you know beholding to myself and and my daughter wasn't due until after the done deadline and now it's like and now here she is she doesn't care it doesn't matter you're GNA be a dad and um you

[53:20] know that was just one of those you know that that's just like a watershed moment right there so you know thank God you know she she my daughter was early but she was totally healthy safe uh Little Nugget literally 5 lb 3 o when she came home she was less than five pounds but you know she was healthy other than that and um yeah the first week of my daughter's life like was literally I was waking up in the hospital leaving to go crank out returns during the day and then I would pick up dinner and come back to the hospital and that was the first three days of my daughter's life the next four days of my daughter's life was I would wake up and just work until

[53:56] midnight I would work until I would fall asleep and then sleep and I didn't see her until April 16th but you know after that points um and especially this past year we personally I became faster I became a better better at what I did but also we onboarded people and now I get to Mentor people and train and I love being able to do that and also it allows me to delegate and so last year I was almost like a shellshocked individual just staring off into the distance like my wife would be

[54:31] like what are you thinking about i' be like just everything everything it was hard for me to be present and and also you know new new Baby your sleep deprived to top it all off um but this year you know I I you know I made a very conscious effort to be present and uh you know and also being able to get a full night sleep has definitely helped but having a team and uh you know training people up has just given me uh a better quality of life and my partner as well and so you know we're making more money this year than we did last year and we have a bigger book of business and we're now working the

[55:06] amount of hours we were the year before and you know I still bust my rump but I get to work around my life as opposed to live around my work if I need to do something uh if I need to pick up my daughter from daycare or drop her off um or she's sick you know I I can I can just work later that evening you know and that's something um that other other institutions be it accounting or any other job might say no we need you you know you know butts and de butts and chairs nine to5 we don't care and for me and our philosophy is really just as

[55:42] long as the work gets done if you need to go to the doctor you go to the doctor and especially with me being my own boss I know the work's going to get done right right my boss my boss really you know cracks uh you know bust chops a lot but you know he at least lets me go have dinner with my wife and kids so that's how I view it I got the same boss yeah well unfortunately we are running out of time and and there are two other areas that I really wanted to explore with you um and I'll I'll sort of um tell you what they are and but we're gonna have to have you back and and and um and and

[56:19] and maybe we can do this I would love to have you know I would love if your wife had was want to fly fly on the wall of this interview get her perspective on this whole process of you becoming an entrepreneurial accountant how that how that was because I think you know these these professional decisions right they're not made in a vacuum they're made in the context of relationships and um I know I had a very long-standing friend of mine on I think now it's been about a year and a half ago um and I actually knew his wife before I met him um and she had happened to be there when

[56:55] he came on the show and so I was able to go you know so Julie what do you think about this right and she was she was able it was it was a really nice Dynamic and and you know God bless them they have a fantastic marriage have for for decades so so I I I would love to explore that and the other thing I wanted to the other idea I wanted to explore with you is you had started out talking about were you going to go into education or were you going to go into business and my sense and and and this is again food for thought maybe my sense is you've been an educator for all the

[57:31] time that you've been an accountant um and especially now as an entrepreneurial accountant I I suspect that that that aspect of of your practice is even bigger but unfortunately our our our hour is up so we're gonna have to leave that for another time but but um I'm leaving you guys want to do this again I want have to talk about those and by the way my wife uh she's a professional actor uh when I met her she was performing an Off Broadway show in in uh in New York city so she's way more interesting and she'll be able to really if you think I'm a colorful individual just wait until uh we get we get her on

[58:08] here too because I would love to come back gonna get both of you on here this will this will a real treat well Aon absolutely thank you so so much for for coming on the show this is I mean I the time just zoomed by I I the reason I looked up was my daughter's school was calling I'm like oh whoops but but but thank you very very much I'm just gonna I'm gonna have you hang on one second I'm GNA wrap things up and take us take us off live that so we can we'll say goodbye offline so uh folks thank you so much for joining us I I'm not even gonna wonder if you got

[58:44] something out of listening to and watching Aaron um you know so many lessons about mentorship about you know taking those opportunities as they come about being proactive um about you know looking beyond the kind of blinders that we sometimes put on ourselves and being open to new experiences even if they don't work out but there's probably something for us down the line and having had that that you know experience that you know for whatever reason it really wasn't our thing so I thank you

[59:19] very much for tuning in this this is our our our last show for this week um and so we will pick things up next week on Monday at 10:00 a.m. these are all pacific times by the way 10:00 a.m. trust and Estates weekly Tuesday business um lessons from the military again at 10: a.m. and then um Wednesday at 10: am. um the next edition of people making money um we're going to be talking to William Elkins IV that's a really Grand name um and I think you are

[59:55] really going to like to hear uh William's story um we've spent a lot of time together the last few weeks um and and he's got just an energy that is irrepressible so so do make it a point to to join us next week so Aaron again thank you so so much for joining us and signing off as I always do Marie darling you are my bell all the best folks