The WAY to WOW Shows
The Overlooked Aspect of Estate Planning
March 31, 2025
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[0:00] [Music] Who are [Music] you? And where are you going? What do you [Music] want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemmel, and we are here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and estate administration from the standpoint of handling our own finances and also for

[0:38] professionals like like my guest and me who help people handle these issues. And so I'm I'm really pleased to introduce my guest, Jolene Blackburn. Uh um Jo Jolene and I met uh I think a few months ago now. Um and she is an estate planning attorney. Uh has a huge following on LinkedIn, almost 10,000 followers, which shows you how popular she is. So really, like I said, this is kind of I feel like it's kind of a coup to have her on the show today. Um but

[1:13] also Jolene handle and I've been I've been um promoting the show this show for the last week w on this basis but Jolene gets involved in an area of estate planning that I think a lot of attorneys and a lot of people involved in estate planning overlook which is funeral planning. And so when we were talking about this, I think maybe about a month or so ago, I was like, "Oh, please come on my show and talk about this." Because even if you're a professional for a long time in in this business, I I I don't I

[1:51] mean, I know when my estate plan was done, nobody mentioned that at all, right? I think it's just assumed that I don't I don't know that, you know, um my I don't know, my daughter is going to take care of it or you know that it's going to fall on somebody's shoulders. And I can tell you in in in all of the administrations I've done, there has never been anything said about the funeral arrangements. It all happens at hawk. So So Jolene, thank you so much for coming on the show today to talk about this uh overlooked but very important issue. Yeah, you're so welcome. And you're absolutely right.

[2:27] That's exactly what happened to me. I was just hoing along with my estate planning, thinking I'm taking care of my clients really well. And then I kind of stumbled across the actual fact that you can pre-plan your funeral, prepay for your funeral. And I thought, wait a minute, you know, I try to make things smooth and easy when my clients are incapacitated with the powers of attorney. and I try to make sure things are smooth and easy after they pass away with the distribution of assets through a will and trust, but I'm leaving empty this one really important week when we get the call or find mom or dad, you

[3:04] know, dead in bed and it's like, wait, who's going to move this body? What do we do? How are we paying for this? What did they want? And maybe if we knew what they want, like how are we getting this all together? and it's it's chaos for like a week and I'm just giving them chaos right in the middle of all my beautiful planning. So that did not sit well with me. So yes, then I started doing funeral planning as part of my end of life estate planning to make sure I could literally say to my clients, I take care of you from the moment of incapacity until that last dollar is distributed. So I, you know, as you're talking, I'm listening. I'm thinking to myself, you know, I think somehow this

[3:39] got lost. Now, I I happen to be a fan of 1950s movies, and in particular, there's a a a fantastic movie, Doris Day and Rock Hudson, called Send Me No Flowers, where Rock Hudson overhars his doctor talking to what turns out to be another patient, but Rock Hudson gets the idea that he's going to die. And so one of the things he's absolutely intent in doing is making sure that funeral arrangements are made, right? So that it doesn't fall on his wife in her time of grief to handle them. And there there's

[4:15] a great scene with u Paul Lind who's the the funeral home director selling the plot and all this kind of stuff, right? And when I think about it today, it it doesn't even seem to come up. So, why why do you think why do you think this is I don't know fallen off of estate planners and people's radar? Well, I know for um attorneys it is not an attorney product. It's not a legal product. It's an insurance product. So, I think you know in law school we're not taught about it. So, we're not thinking about it. So, on our professional end it's just kind of out of sight, out of mind. We've never been taught it. And

[4:51] what's interesting though is if you have your life insurance license, you can sell the pre-needs plans. But I think most life insurance agents or um financial advisors are taught the bigger products and not and again this is a this is a big product but again for some reason it's also missed on that end because I talked to a lot of life insurance agents and they're shocked that they can sell this and then it's just this little niche of people who just happen to come across it and people make a full-time income just doing this. But yeah, and then the other end

[5:28] is, you know, a lot of people don't want to do their estate plan, right? Because they don't want to think about death. But even when I get those clients, you would think, and this is what I thought, is okay, I'm talking to them about their estate plan. It's almost like, do you want to frise with that? Like, we're just doing the next step. It is not. It is a whole division line where I can talk to my clients about, okay, so you've got one kid. If that kid predesases you, where do you want your money to go? Okay. Well, so you have one grandkid. Um, where and again, if that if they happen to die in a joint car accident, where do you want

[6:03] the money to go then? You know, I'm going through all these scenarios that are not nice and they're talking to me all day long and then I say funeral plan and they shut down. So weird. So I'm like, you know, but you know, you're gonna die, right? I mean, that's that's the point of this whole thing, right? And so people really don't want to talk about it. And so yeah, it is it's very hard to get them to cross that line. So So there's it's coming from all angles where it's not done. It's not talked about. And yeah, I I

[6:38] don't know. Um even I still struggle after doing this for a few years to get people to really talk about it with me and do it with me. And you know, I try to make sure they understand it's not just a huge financial savings and and relief of burden to your family, but it can also be fun. It can also be something that's really this is me saying goodbye and providing a little bit more peace and closure to my family when I pass away. So that it's not just some generic event that my kids had to create on the fly.

[7:14] It is something that, you know, if I like, if I have a sense of humor, maybe we're having songs played that are funny, like, you know, Highway to Hell or, you know, Another One Bites the Dust. Um, you know, or maybe we're having a flash mob, interrupt the whole thing, or I mean, there's so many options and there's a lot of different things you can do with your crees. Um, you know, it's not just, hey, let's go to the ocean. It's, you know, we can actually um, you know, be shot off in a rocket or turned into um a record that plays our favorite song and can be given to all the family. I mean, there's

[7:50] millions of options out there if you just take the time to do it. And it will just mean so much more to your family because then I mean, closure. I don't think we're ever going to fully find closure when a loved one passes away, but we're helping them get a little closer to that goal that we'll never fully reach, but we we'll get closer. We'll get more peace and we'll feel better about it. And I mean, who doesn't want to I mean, if you've never been to a funeral where people laugh, like it's a great thing. You know, it really just is a life well- led if everyone's laughing at your funeral. And so, you

[8:25] really do want that as much as you can. And I'm not saying that happens in every situation. You're probably not going to have that the younger they are, but when mom and dad pass away, why not have that nice little extra touch of the funny stories and maybe just again something that reflects who they are? And again, maybe it's not a laugh, maybe it's just a smile of that was so them. Mhm. So when when I was uh still in in the Navy um as a reservist, uh I I did a lot of what were called funeral honors. And

[9:00] that was um we would you know we would show up at a funeral and we would lay a flag on the casket and uh you know taps would play, we'd fold the flag, we present the flag, right? And and oh we got a we got a weird feedback here. Um so that that was the one area where I found that people um they they they found they found some meaning in in a funeral, right? Because

[9:35] um the the deedent you obviously was was a veteran and so to to have this presentation of the flag etc. Um you know that was that was very moving. Um, other than that though, it it it seems like um funerals are they just sort of are what they are. Um, and and and people don't don't see the the creativity in them. Um, what do you think? What do you think that's about? Because when when you I I'll be honest with you, when you said,

[10:10] "Well, people can be so creative," I'm thinking to myself, "Would I want to create a funeral? Yeah, it's, you know, I think one, it is a final way to say goodbye, but it's also again, who is the funeral for? It's for the children. It's for the family. And so, you want it to have some meaning to them, some memory to them that really helps them get through that time. And so for example, I went to a funeral um and when the person died um they had led a very creative full life and somebody got

[10:45] up. We were all invited to share stories and the first story that got up was kind of a normal story. The second story that got up was a little funny and I think people were afraid to laugh. So, you know, there was just this h, you know, but then the next story was even funnier and you couldn't help but laugh and then it just got worse and worse or better and better, however you want to go with that. But it was we were just laughing so hard because he just was such a character. And so, yeah, he, you know, he was 65, so, you know, on the older end, but also not that old either. And so, it was a little and it was a

[11:21] kind of fast. He was given a six-month diagnosis and died, you know, fairly quickly. So, it was a little bit hard and it was but it was enjoyable to be there and to have that moment of relief in your grief where you can actually kind of laugh and let it out and let out some emotion. And yes, we went right back to the grief, you know, when we went to the grave site and stuff, but it was it was just so nice to have a break in the grief and to actually really hear who he was and the impact he had on everybody. And I think that a lot of times there's a missed opportunity there

[11:57] where people take it so serious that we're not truly able to learn about this person from different perspectives. What did they mean to their co-workers? what did they mean to their, you know, fellow club members and to their family and all these different people that they impacted in their life. And so I think we take very narrow a scope sometimes. And it really can be again it can be a lot more elaborate than just sharing stories, but I, you know, I did go to one recently that had us dressing in different colors because they felt like that represented that person. You know, that was their favorite colors. So

[12:33] again, it just gives you something to do too when you're getting ready. Even just, okay, I'm not looking for that black dress. I'm I'm looking for a bright color. That's what they want me to do. And so you feel like you've done something for them, for their family, you know, your final goodbye to this person. So it really can help the people who are coming to your funeral by giving them something to do or just a little change of pace for that moment. now and and and listening to you, it sounds like there's there's two parts to this. There's the the sort of financial

[13:09] part, which is the the the prepackaging that someone with a life insurance license could sell. Um, and then there's the the sort of ceremonial part of it, maybe. I don't know exactly what to call that, but yeah, but but there's the the the actual what do I want my funeral to be about? So, talk if you would about um how you help people, you know, work with both of those parts, right? Because I I guess it's in the coming together of them then that that, you know, a funeral

[13:45] is planned. Exactly. Yes. So with the what we call pnees planning, so you're prepaying for your funeral. Now, first of all, the very first benefit of this, why you want to do this is because the price of a funeral doubles every 10 years. And they've had studies going back decades to show these numbers, and they absolutely do double. So, you know, your funeral today, if it's going to be a kind of more simpler one and it's going to be around $10,000, you know, in 10 years, that could be $20,000. So, I mean, just think about how much longer you're going to

[14:20] live. Even if you're, you know, on that older end and you're like, okay, I mean, I don't know, I have 10, 20, maybe if I'm super lucky, 30 years. You're still going to be saving tens of thousands of dollars. Just imagine your family trying to pay for that, right? Where is your family going to get that money? They're not supposed to use money from your bank account after you've passed away. They're supposed to use their own money. A lot of people tell me, "Oh, well, I have life insurance. That'll cover it." No. No, it won't. Because life insurance pays out after 30 days, and your family has to give the mortuary money today. The mortuary does not take payment

[14:55] plans. They want all their money upfront. So, do you have enough money on your credit card? Do you have space on your credit card? And which child is going to pay for it? Is it going to be all the kids getting together? Because usually one kid has more money than another, right? And depending on your family dynamics, first of all, usually the kid with more money is the one that's going to be like a little skimpier. And the one with less money is going to be like, "We need all the flowers for mom. She needs elaborate decorations and all this other stuff, you know, and we have to invite everyone she ever met." And, you know, the other kids like campaign for this and we can just calm it down a notch. And so there's fighting there.

[15:31] Mhm. Um, plus you often times get, and this is I'm true with any person who leaves no will and and things like that, you get where this kid paid for it and this kid promises to pay them back and then they never do, right? So, you've got all kinds of scenarios where this could go wrong. Don't leave that on your kids. Don't leave it that they can't buy what they want to buy, pay for what they want to pay for, and then they're fighting over the money. Another thing people will tell me is, "Well, I do have a funeral policy." Well, those funeral policies do not lock in today's prices and they don't pay out immediately. They

[16:07] pay out after two weeks. So, you still have to front that money. It will come a little faster, but there's still a problem there. So, no other policy other than a pre-needs policy locks in today's prices. So, that casket price, the earn price, all that kind of stuff, it's going to go up. lock it in. Same thing with buying your plot. If you're going to buy a plot or a vault, you want to buy it sooner rather than later because again, those prices just go up. So, that's the first thing that pre-nes does is it locks in the prices making things,

[16:42] you know, cheaper in the long run. Um, it allows you to pay over time. So, you don't have to fork over 10, 20, 30, whatever your plan is. You can pay over 10 years if you'd like. So, and like life insurance, you pay once and you pass away. You're in a car accident, it's covered, you're good. So, that's the second thing it does. And then again, stops the fighting, you know, provides the money right away. Go straight to the mortuary. Um, I'm kind of morbid. So, the very first thing I asked when I found out about these policies was, "Well, what if you never find my body?" Right? Like, I put in all

[17:18] this money and I don't have a body. And they said, "Well, actually, you'll never lose the money, so let's just say yes. You, I don't know, are taken out to the desert somewhere and never found. Um, all off a ship at sea, right?" Exactly. We just never find you. Um, your family will get that money back. So, it is okay. That was always my because I'm like, why am I giving you thousands if maybe I can't use it? It's okay. It'll go to your family. Um, so yeah. So, there's a lot of different benefits there. And then on top of that, there's a separate part of the policy. It's

[17:53] $500 and it will fly your body back from anywhere in the world. So if you die in another country while you're on vacation or you just even went um upstate somewhere, you know, it's covers 75 miles plus. So I'm in LA. If I were to go to Santa Barbara, it would cost extra to get my body back. But with this $500 policy, it'll bring my body back from wherever I'm at and bring it to the mortuary I've registered with so that my family doesn't have to pay, you know, again, if I was in Europe or something, tens of thousands of dollars to bring my body back. It's done. It's covered.

[18:30] We're good. So, highly recommend that for everybody because who doesn't go 75 miles? Like, right? You might think, well, I I don't travel much. it's you don't have to travel much. If you just go across state, you're probably going to need that policy. So, there's several different things that are covered in these pre-needs policies that are really, really helpful to the next of kin to make their lives easier. And you mentioned you designate a mortuary. So, how are are your heirs then essentially

[19:07] locked in to use that mortuary? And and if so, what happens if I I I don't know. Do mortuaries go out of business? You know, I'm starting to think of all the right all the things that could go wrong. Yeah, I know. And that's it's funny because yeah, when I first looked into this, I had all these concerns. So, first of all, the policy is an insurance policy. So, it is not formally tied to a mortuary. you do register through a mortuary, but if the mortuary went out of business, you do still have your policy. Um, and let's just say that, yeah, again, using since I'm from California, let's say that I moved from LA to San Francisco and that's where I

[19:43] pass away and that's where I want everything to take place now. That's where all my people are. You can change mortuaries. There is a transfer fee, but it's still um well worth the pricing. And again, obviously that pricing will change over time, but it's well worth the pricing. So, it's not a big deal. It's not as bad as waiting to buy the policy and then buying it 10 years later in your, you know, Yeah. I always knew I was going to end up in San Francisco, so I'll just wait. Or, you know, right? Yeah. Just you buy it now. It's a small transfer fee. And and with, you know, I mean, a lot of people are moving between states these days. So what would happen

[20:20] if someone you know left California maybe they moved to I don't know Texas or you know wherever wherever people are moving North Carolina you know. Yeah. And again these are nationwide policy uh insurance policies and then um same thing with the flying your body home. It is wherever your home has been for the last six months. So yeah so if you retire to Florida right then it will become Florida even though when you registered maybe it was California. it's fine. You can just switch it over. What you cannot do is um I had a client

[20:55] recently who lives in San Diego. Um has a home in San Diego. He is, you know, not doing well. He's passing away in San Diego, but he wants to be have his body flown to Ohio where his family's from. M um you cannot do that because his residence is in San Diego and they only fly you home to your residence of the last 6 months. And yes, you could have been in the hospital here for the last couple months, but as long as your residence is there, they will fly you back there. But because he actually does live in San Diego, they will not fly him to Ohio. So, um that's the only

[21:31] downsides on that policy, unfortunately. But, but yeah, wherever you live. Now, if his if his um um children or whoever, if they wanted to pay to fly his remains to Ohio, could the policy still be used for a funeral in Ohio? Yeah, the policy um as far as a pre-needs policy, yes. So, again, the flight, not so much. they would have to pay a couple grand, whatever the cost is that they could get um through the regular airlines. But um but as far as the actual service, yes,

[22:07] if he had especially if he had registered there, that would be even, you know, hopefully ideal. Um but you can transfer it. Yeah. Okay. Okay. and and what if what if um a deedent say registered in California, but all of their children maybe live I'll use your example Ohio and and they don't want mom or dad buried in California because they're not going to fly to California to visit the grave, right? Yeah. Can you know can they basically as as the you

[22:42] know family say I know you're I know you know dad was registered in in you know a mortuary in San Diego but we're going to have the service in you know Columbus or whatever and and you know and and exercise that that authority over the the proceeds of the policy. Yeah, it there are some limitations there. So, you do have to be a little bit careful um because once that person has stated their wishes and paid for their wishes, um yeah, there can be some some limitations. So, again, they can move, but um for

[23:17] example, if they're executing part of the policy here, they're not going to be able to split that up. So you can't have body processing here and and like a service there. You can forfeit some of the money. You can, you know, there's different things you can do. So for example, I know some people who are like, we're just going to have people over to the house, you know, then. Okay. So you might have forfeited some money and then you're just doing your your event at your house. So yeah. Okay. So there I there are some constraints on it. I I so I I would think then that if

[23:56] someone is buying one of these policies, they're going to want to talk to their children before they buy it and and maybe, you know, get their input on on what's going to happen so that in in an attempt to relieve them of a burden, they're they're actually not creating a bigger burden. Yeah. I always recommend, especially, you know, if if both spouses are still alive or Yeah. if the kids are more involved to have the family around because first of all half of the funeral again is for the people who outlive you. So, and especially if you are going to do something a little offthe-wall, you

[24:31] want to make sure that they hear you, right? That they know you're serious. Like, hey, I want to have a flash mob. I'm serious. Like, this is what I want or I want a harpist or whatever it is. and to really talk it out because, you know, for example, I had a couple who the husband was a total jokester and the wife was as strict as could be and she didn't think any of this stuff was funny and you know, and he just was so into all these different things. And so, you know, is she going to execute on his wishes if he does go off the wall there? And you know, you have to talk that out

[25:06] because, you know, maybe he's going to have to put instead of putting his wife in charge, maybe he's going to put his daughter in charge because his daughter's going to execute his final wishes. You know, you really do want to make sure that the people coming after you are going to do what you want or that you're okay that they won't do what you want, right? You know, and and then you also have to weigh how important is it to you versus how important is it to you that they are okay. Um, but yes, I've seen all kinds of things. I mean, if you're on like Tik Tok or Instagram reels, I mean, there's people who there's a guy, it was he was in Ireland

[25:41] as they were lowering his casket, you suddenly hear knocking and his voice and he's like, "Hey, it's dark in here. Let me out." And he's like he's talking as they're lowering it and it's just and you see all these people around this grave and then they're laughing, you know, and it's just like but yeah, who's going to make sure that happens, right? If that was you, how are you going to make sure someone plays that audio? And you know, will they actually be brave enough to do it? So, um, wow. Yeah, you really do have to talk to the family and make sure um, yeah, aside from, um, my

[26:20] estate planning firm, I do run a separate funeral business where we provide more of these creative um, items for people, including we provide a grim reaper to come. And literally, he is a an escort. He literally he doesn't kill people. People talk about him reaping souls, but he he reaps souls, not bodies. So you're dead, he comes and escort you to the afterlife. So we have that. And you know, and obviously that's not going to sit well with some people, but for some people, you're going to sit there and say, "Okay, even if I don't like it, this is so that person." So,

[26:56] you know, when we do that, we have to make sure our grim reaper is going to be safe to enter the mortuary or the home or wherever we're at so that we can do our job of, okay, we are taking the urn and we are removing it from the room to symbolically show, you know, taking them to the afterlife or whatever we are asked to do. But yes, you don't want to just sideswipe especially the immediate family, right? So, you got to let people know, hey, there's going to be a little unusual activity or there's going to be a joke or, you know, so that those who might be offended or those who are in

[27:32] the deepest stages of grief can understand that it may not be what they want, but it's not necessarily about them either. So, um, but yeah, even just something as simple as a viewing. A lot of my clients were like, "Oh, I don't want a viewing. Don't nobody should look at my body." Mhm. Okay. But you're thinking that you're going to be 90 and you know that everyone maybe you died of cancer or something and so everyone had a chance to say goodbye. What if you know I'm talking to you and you're 45 and you get cancer next year and you die in the next year and your kids are still teenagers. Don't you think that they

[28:08] might need to see you one last time to kind of connect those dots, recognize this really happened and it's really over? Mhm. So, don't be dismissive of the viewing because you don't want it and you're thinking, "I'm going to live a long life and my kids will be in their 60s or or whatever age." You know what I mean? Like, it's we don't all get that opportunity. And so, it's important to write down your actual wishes of, okay, I'm okay with a viewing if my kids need it or if somebody needs it. Um, or I'm okay with just immediate family doing a

[28:45] viewing. and you just so we really break it down because a lot of people are just, yeah, cremate me, no viewing, throw me in the ocean, done. And it's like, cool, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But again, you're just assuming that you're going to live a long life and that everyone's kind of going to be, you know, kind of over it, right? Like it's just, yes, of course, this is the next stage. And that's that's not how it goes all the time. I mean, a lot of people die a lot younger than, you know, than we thought, right? So, yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm as we're talking about this, as I mentioned a

[29:21] little while ago, my experience with funerals is primarily doing funeral honors. And I remember one time um the deedent uh who it turned out was was quite a large, heavy man. and they had trouble getting him out of the hearse because it was so heavy and they put him on the cart to wheel him to the grave and they get onto the ground and it sinks and there was no way to and so I had to enlist my entire uh detachment along with all of the pawbearers, you know, to

[29:56] to get this casket to, you know, to the graveside. and and you could see the mix of reactions in the people there for the funeral. Some of them were just appalled, right? And others were stifling laughter, right? Because the situation was I mean it was so ridiculous. I'm in my dress, not my dress size, my service dress, white uniform, the white tunic with the cover and you know and and my white shoes, right? and we're struggling to carry this poor, you know, guy to the graveside. So, you

[30:33] know, crazy crazy things happen and and no disrespect to the family, but I think they just it just it just never occurred to them that, you know, this was not kind of a a typical situation. And and really, I think the funeral director should have realized, hey, what happens if the ground had been watered, right? And there you go. So, so scary. So, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's scary because you you almost want to make that joke to relieve everybody, but obviously you also don't want to be that

[31:09] person. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I'm going to take just a break here to um remind all of our viewers. My guest today is Jolene Blackthornne and she is an estate planning attorney and we're talking about what I think is the most overlooked aspect of estate planning which is funeral planning and uh Jo this is an aspect of Jolene's practice that that she has delved uh very deeply into and so she's she's really an expert on this topic and and before we go we go back to the to the our our talk I just

[31:45] want to mention that if if you especially if you are a professional and you want to be part of a forum where you can ask questions, offer advice to your fellow professionals, I encourage you to join my LinkedIn group, Trust and Estates Experts. Uh it's kind of like the same name as the show. Um, and all you need to do is is go to LinkedIn just just under groups, search trust and estate experts and and click the button and and once I see that you've clicked, I'll I'll I'll click you in to join. And

[32:22] the there's there's a a couple of benefits to being a part of the group. one I just mentioned which is you have a forum where you can bounce ideas off of other professionals or ask you know get a as a prof matter of professional courtesy ask someone maybe in another area if you're a lawyer an accountant a question about a matter you're working on. So it's it's a great place to do that. And the other thing is if like me you produce content whether it's videos, whether it's articles, it's a great place to get uh additional exposure to

[32:57] your work so people can see your expertise and know more about you and your practice. I know my friend Lori Israel who uh does prenuptual agreements which is also kind of an overlooked aspect of estate planning. Uh she she posts content in there. There's another fellow I'm going up on his name. I want to say William, but he he posts content. So, it's a again, it's a great place to showcase your expertise among people who are actively involved in in the estate planning and probate and trust administration world. So, so going going

[33:34] back to the show, this is Trust and Estates Weekly and my guest is Jolene Blackburn and we're talking about funeral planning. So, so Jolene, you were talking about the uh financial side of it and how how those uh pre-needs policies worked. Um how does the and we started to talk about the um more of the sort of ceremony part of it work? So, how does that work? How do you guide people through that? And I, for one of a better term, sort of

[34:09] memorialize, you know, their wishes. Yeah. So, and again, it has that crossover because if we're pre-planning it, then we can prepay for it. We can make sure it happens. So, the first thing is, you know, are you going to be cremated or buried? And so, for those who want to be buried, um, there are, people don't realize this, you don't just have to pick a black or a brown casket or things like that. You can actually, you know, they have where they can put wraps on them so it could be blinged out, but you also don't have to stick to the traditional shape. They actually, I mean, they keep it somewhat, you know, because it has to be your body, but people have Twix bars and they

[34:47] have high heel shoes and like um, you know, when you um pass away from like an avalanche and they wrap the body on the little tobogen thingy, they have ones like that. I mean, it's crazy what they do. So, anything you're into, if you're really like a soccer fan or whatever, they have golf clubs. I mean, it's just you can really be you. Um, and they do have creative coloring as well. So, um, I unfortunately went to one of a little boy and his favorite color was orange, so they had an orange casket. So, really making it you. Um, and then with the

[35:23] urns, same thing. There's gourd. So, you don't have to have just your traditional kind of porcelain urn. You can have a gourd or you can have um you know if you're going to do it at sea they have like a compostable thing. Um so we talk about all the different ways to encase your body, right? So that's kind of step one. Um and then we talk about disposing of your body. So is it a vault? Is it, you know, are you being buried? Um if you're being cremated, you can still be buried. A lot of people don't seem to realize this. Um, you can either be part of a scattering garden at a cemetery or

[35:58] you can actually be cremated. You can have a headstone just like everyone else. And so your family doesn't have to choose between two things. They can actually kind of have the best of both worlds if that's, you know, you want to be cremated but they want a place to visit. You can do that. Um, but they also, again, sky's the limit. And soon, I think in 2026, they're planning to approve um uh composting of our remains. Um because right now with cremains, they are there's chemicals in there, so they're not compostable. Um but, uh with the

[36:33] crees again, you can be shot off in a rocket, you can become a diamond, you can become actually any gemstone you like. Um there's so many options. So I go through that with people so that they really understand that they're not stuck. You know, if they want to be turned into a gemstone, maybe, you know, they have two daughters, they could be two gemstones and their daughters have rings made or whatever. Um, so I should chime in and say if if the person was in the Navy, so they can apply for a burial at sea. We I did I did several of those in my career and where they were surface

[37:08] naval officers. We we did that from a ship. Um but I also did one for a submariner and we did a burial at sea from a submarine. Oh wow. This was wild because um you know I I brought the crees out to the submarine and we we got underway and I'm talking to the captain of the boat and he said he said and I said you know sir here's the thing. He says yeah we're not using that for the for the burial at sea that we film. And I said, 'Why not?' And he said, 'Well, chaplain, we're gonna let you. We're

[37:44] gonna let you see why, right? Um, and the reality, when you're on the deck of a submarine, it's windy, and if you pour those crees, half the time the wind will shift and blow them in your face, and it's it's quite toxic, frankly. They do is they use flour. So, at least if it blows in your face, you're getting flour blown in your face. Um, but that's all it is. But you and but you don't have people literally going, you know, on a on a video, right? So, yes. Um, but it was, you know, these are these are for again for people in the military, these are options that are available as well

[38:19] that I'm not sure a lot of people know about. Yeah. And I will say because I've had this happen um where a service member will say, "I want to be buried at this particular cemetery." And but they've been told that cemetery is full. Mhm. And so I've told them, don't say that because your kids are then going to call whenever you do pass away and find out it's full. And then they're not going to know what to do. And they were very specific. We want to be buried in LA, not in Riverside. And I'm like, okay, so but Riverside has

[38:54] space for you. So now what is your kid going to do? They have to go further. I mean, you're causing a problem for your kids because you're asking the impossible. You cannot be buried in LA. You've been told this. Yeah. They didn't care. You know, they just that. So, I mean, I can't stop them, but it's Right. Right. Yeah. It's a shame because Yeah. The the the um the military cemetery over in Westwood has been filled for years. I know when my father passed away, you know, we wanted to do a military, but we took him out to um Riverside. that was the next closest place that

[39:30] that had space and you know that that's what it is and they did a lovely job by the way. Yeah. And so then you have to say well okay are we choosing an LA cemetery that has nothing to do with the military or are we trying to find something besides Riverside? I mean you know so you're giving them a huge chore to do at a bad time. So don't don't ask for the impossible. Um, also speaking again to that um, toxicity, there are safe ways to um, you know, spread the crees just about anywhere. So, for example, a lot of people will say, I want to be scattered

[40:06] in the national parks. Well, that's permissible. Okay, that's it's not illegal, but you have to do it a certain way, and it's not difficult. So, I think a lot of people think, "Oh, it's not legal, so I'm just going to do it however I'm going to do it." Look up the rules. It's not hard. They just don't want it next to trails and they don't want it next to water. So, just you need to go off trail a bit. You need to just make a small effort, but just read the rules. It's not hard. And again, I think a lot of people just assume that the answer's going to be no. So, they're just like, "Okay, I'm just going to put it right next to the stream where all the little fishies are now going to get

[40:41] this toxic chemical in their water." So, don't do that. Um, really look it up. It's it's again, it's not that hard. And then there's also companies that um have you adopt a tree. So what what would happen is you basically purchase a tree. You get a little plaque on your tree. So you get your own little headstone. Basically you scatter around that tree and so that tree is always your tree. Your family can come back to that tree but then they use some of that money to reforest. So you're actually doing good. So I mean if you are thinking about you know for

[41:16] example Euseite there's actually a forest near Euseite where you can actually help reforest. So wow there's different things to look into and that's what I talk to people about is you know whether you're being buried or cremated what are your kind of goals what are your you know priorities as far as like saving the earth or or whatever. Um you know do you love the ocean? Do you love the mountains? All those things we can incorporate all of that. Um, and then yeah, some of the services I provide as well is, you know, sometimes families want to give out crees, right, to all the family or all the friends or all the

[41:52] whatever. And a lot of times they'll just do it like in little backies or something. And I'm like, so, you know, we offer little ash boxes and there's different sizes and shapes. We have like treasure chests and we have little glass jars and, you know, just to make it a little nicer. Um, so that that way, especially if friends are like, "Well, we always plan to go to Thailand and it never happened. I'm going to go next year. I'd like some crees." Now you have a nice little container and not a baggie. So yeah. Um, I know. I I I had both my cat and my dog cremated because

[42:28] that's pretty and my cat is in this sort of little tin box, right? But my dog is my dog Jiggers is in this very beautiful wooden box, right, with a plaque on it. So yeah, things have changed over the years. Yeah. So yeah, we try to make sure everything is very, you know, every little detail is nice. Uh, one of the services we also provide is um what we call mourers. And the mourers are, you know, we all have that family member where let's just say like if my spouse dies and my mom is kind of an attention person, right? So, like I'm not going to

[43:03] be able to properly mourn. I'm not going to be able to say hi to my cousins that I haven't seen in 20 years because my mom is just going to be like me me like you know sharing the same story over and over talking about how sad this is or something and I'm like can you stop talking about how sad this is? I just need to like focus right our ners will sit with your mom and we will like take the attention away. We'll hear that story that she says to everybody. We'll get her food and drink and make sure that she is just kind of taken care of off in the corner, right? So that you can go do your thing, be the host, the grieving host or or whatever or or just sit in your own little corner, right?

[43:38] And just have people coming up to you, but without you sitting next to mom or whoever it is that is just not letting you do what you need to do. So there's a lot of different aspects to that day and different ways that funerals happen. And so we try to make sure that what do you need? We're here for you. We've thought of it. And yeah, and so for those who are, you know, pre-planning, I mean, they're not going to hire a mourner today, but you can write in I would like to hire a mourner to, you know, you know, if needed for so and so, you know, if they're still alive if you happen to

[44:14] know, you know, your cousin's going to be a problem like and they're going to probably be there like, yeah, just please, you know, or whatever. So yeah, we we talk it through, figure out all the scenarios, fig figure out the family dynamics and try to help them pre-plan. And of course, pre-planning looks very different when you're 40 versus 70, right? So yeah, you kind of um yeah, have different um scenarios and yeah, so yeah, I see the the comment, how long will I be a spiritual slave? It is hard, right? it. Everybody's grief timeline is different.

[44:51] That's why I say we don't really find closure. We just find ways to work through the grief, ways to memorialize our loved ones in different ways. Um I actually had a memorial day yesterday. Uh coincidentally, um I don't do anything. I don't people. That's what I say. I don't people on that day. And so I don't work. If it's a work day, I I was invited to a party. I said, "No, I don't I don't people at all. I went to the beach, had a nice day at the beach, and you know, it's just you have to just keep walking through the paces. And it is hard. I mean, even I I mentioned I

[45:26] went to a young kid's uh funeral. It was uh my daughter's best friend died at seven years old, and I, you know, I helped organize um all the kids drew pictures, you know, for the parents, and and I scan them all so they would always have a scan copy as well. And so that scan copy lives on my computer and you know it's been 10 years and I it's still like hard and that's you know such a small impact in my life right but it's still kills me when I think about it and you know I'm like starting to tear up a little bit you know and it's like much less my own

[46:02] personal deaths and so yeah there's no timeline and I'm always fascinated I've had people tell me you know their loved one their their significant other passed away, somebody they had kids with, and three years later they're they are in a new relationship, things are good, and then I've had other people 10 years later, they cannot keep a steady relationship, you know, and so everyone is different, and there's no right or wrong, and there's no, "Oh, well, you clearly didn't go to enough therapy." I mean, it's just everyone is different and and first of all, therapy doesn't work for everybody. It is just not and

[46:38] and it's the timing of it, too, right? But it is there's certain things that can help other people more than therapy. And then and then therapy is the thing for other people. So it really drives me crazy when people are like, you know, yeah, when I had someone pass away, I think it was like six months later, I was invited to a baby shower and I thought I was good. And then like the day before the baby shower, I had to text my friend, I just can't I can't be around that much happiness. I'm sorry. I just I can't. and um you know and she was like maybe you need therapy. And it just drove me crazy because it was like I don't need therapy. I you know I need

[47:14] my loved one back. Um but I can't have that. So no I just need some more time. I can handle happy events at some point but not right now. I thought I was good. I'm not. And you know, this is a this is kind of a um problem is the wrong word, but I I I noticed this all my years as a chaplain is um people either don't want to or feel they cannot take time to grieve for their losses. And losses are not just people passing away. Um although obviously that that is a a somewhat

[47:50] permanent loss in some cases. um you know losses of a relationship where there is not the finality because the person lost is still alive. Those can be more difficult to process than, you know, than a death. And I I I used to talk to, you know, my the the the service members that I took care of all the time. They would come to me and and you know, I'm feeling this, I'm feeling that. and we dig into it and inevitably there was some kind of loss at the heart of what was going on with them. And when

[48:25] I would ask them, well, well, what have you done to come to terms with it? Um, I I did I've never asked them if they'd been to therapy because that almost for sure that was no. And they were coming to I was their therapy coming to see the chaplain, right? And and they would say, "Well, I you know, I had to get back to work. We had to launch aircraft or whatever it was." I'm like, "Okay, well, believe me, I get it. Um, here's what I recommend is that we figure out a way for you to grieve and just come to terms with this loss in your life. First of all,

[49:00] acknowledge that it is a loss and second that it's a process that you're going to have to work through. It may be short, it may be medium, it may be long. There's no way for us to predict what it is. Yeah. You're just going to have to go through it. You know, I I had to do this for a sailor on a submarine, right? And he's one of, you know, roughly 110 120 people, right, where every crew member is essential. But he had suffered a real loss and he was fumbling at his work. They were getting ready to kick him out of the Navy. And I went and met

[49:36] with his chief petty officer and I said, "Look, I think you got a good sailor here. Here's what's going on." I said if you can give him just some time to come to terms with his grief among you know amid the how busy you know the ops schedule is for your boat I think you know you'll you know you'll you'll go both of you will go very far and and in the end he did do that and it was one of the few cases where I ever found out whether my advice you know worked right because the boat came back uh you know a few months later and the sailor came to see me and let me know you know what had happened. So I I think it it's a real it's it's a real tough

[50:12] thing this idea that we we as as human beings we need time to grieve and and again it's look I still grieve at times over the loss of my dog. So, you know, I don't know what to tell you. I I you know, I should and maybe it's, you know, for for people who are not dog people, it probably sounds pretty silly. Um, but for people who are dog people, for sure they get it. Yeah. How close I was to this, you know, this this, you know, little animal that was a part of my life for so many years. So, so, so let let me ask you this. Um, you know, you go

[50:48] through all these conversations, plans. what hap are they are they written down and if so what happens with that document? What is sort of the process for um for one of a better term memorializing the the more sort of ceremonial non-financial aspects of the funeral. Yeah. So we do we pay for whatever we can pay for. So some things cannot be prepaid for. So I mean for example a mourner coming to your event is um something you'll have to buy at that time. So there are some things we can prepay for. There are some things we

[51:23] can just document we want to have or we would like to have you know if appropriate or whatever. And so for things like for example we cannot predict flower prices in the future. So what we do is we kind of estimate a price and we put some money aside for that. So the reason the plan might be 10 grand when you're just doing a basic cremation where that maybe costs around 3500 is because okay so you need to have your priest or whoever coming and then you're um again having a mortar come and you're having certain flowers that maybe go above and beyond what you set aside

[51:58] or whatever. So um so there's different two excuse me two different pots. There's the prepaid pot that's 100% locked in. There's the well I should say three pots. There's the prepaid pot that is unpredictable, your orbituary. We don't know how much the newspaper is going to cost. We set that price aside as best we can. And then there's the okay, we didn't quite cover it or we want to do more or we want to do something a little different pot. Um, and so yeah, and and a lot of what my people do will say, um, you we'll have the service, but I don't know about awake, so I'm just going to leave that to the people who are there. And they can pay $500, $1,000 for a wake. Um, and

[52:36] so, yeah, so there's the different pots. And so we just help them figure out what they kind of foresee both for themselves and for their family. And then once you write that down, yeah, it is the mortuary is going to do that. So, you have to pretty much know that is what you want to do. And then, um, you know, you have your kind of like receipt basically. And I always tell people, keep it with your estate plan, with your, you know, with your trust and make sure everyone knows you have it so they don't go buying another one. And then, you know, call the mortary. That's all you got to do. They'll take care of the rest. They will take care of you. It'll be good. It'll be

[53:11] smooth. And then there's no emotional spending either, right? Because when you're sitting in that chair and mom's just died and they're like, "Well, do you want everyone to have like a rosary beads or do you want everybody to have like, you know, should everybody have a photo program?" And, you know, and and maybe they should or shouldn't, but like you're going, "Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes." You all these things, right? I remember when my my dear Marie passed away. I always I always salute her at the end of every show and I'm sitting with the funeral director and she had picked out a particular casket and and the funeral director said, "Now, are you

[53:48] really going to let her be buried in, you know, this casket?" I'm like, "No." Yeah. It's so hard. So, yes. So, we we try to reduce that spending. So that is and yeah, like you said, it's kind of that baseline, but you can walk in and just say this is what we're doing versus I don't know what we're doing. So yeah, we got to get the best of the best of everything. So that's what you want to be a little cautious of is when you don't pre-plan. That's what your family's going to end up doing. And you know, and what people also forget is you may not die alone. Okay? If you're in a car accident, there might be mom and

[54:24] dad. You're burying mom and dad. So you're like, "Oh, I can fit 10 grand on my credit card. Well, can you fit 20 grand on your credit card? Like, I mean, you know what I mean? Like, it's you know, or more. I mean, during co entire families were getting wiped out at the same time. I mean, what we don't know what that scenario is. And I'll mention one last benefit. If you do get it while you're young, your children are automatically covered. So, if you did ever have to um, you know, do a service, cremate, bury your child, it's free. It's covered. Whatever you paid for yourself is covered for them. So, I mean, it's bad enough that they passed away. You don't want to have

[55:00] to pay for them to pass away. So, this is a wonderful benefit, you know, up until they're 18 that will cover them. And I I will tell you, I was kind of just doing some research. I went into GoFundMe and I typed in funeral. Three of the first four were for minors. Oh. Oh my god. So, it's just like And do you want to be a GoFundMe? Do you want do you want your last memory? I mean, I have a friend right now. He's doing a GoFundMe for his dad. It's is that how you want to be remembered? So don't be a car wash. Don't be a GoFundMe. You know, you you again payment plan. You could do something like 50 bucks a month and an elaborate

[55:37] funeral could be covered and yeah, you'll save your family so much headache, so much grief. Um it'll just help them focus on themselves. So, well, Jolene, we're we're we're coming up on on time here. Thank you so much for coming and talking about this and and also for the openness in talking about it not just from an advisor's you know standpoint but but to really climb into some of the emotional issues that that attend these these situations. I I I've

[56:14] started to realize that my background as a chaplain has been much more useful to my work as a fiduciary than I ever thought it would be because there is a huge emotional component to what we do. And a lot of professionals for for various reasons, this is not to put them down, but a lot of professionals either don't or can't, you know, make that emotional uh leap, if you will. Um, and and for a lot of people that may be fine, but for for many people I think they this is as much an emotional event as it is anything else and they need that emotional

[56:50] support. So I I I really, you know, commend you for, you know, for addressing it from from multiple uh multiple perspectives. Thank you. Yeah. So I'm going to have you hold tight while I wrap up and then we'll we'll go offline and chat for a minute. So, um, first of all, folks, if if you would like to contact Jolene, I'll put her contact information, um, in in the show notes. So, after the show posts on, uh, YouTube, it'll all be there, her her a URL to her LinkedIn profile. I'll put her email address in there, and you

[57:25] can get in touch with Jolene and and talk to her about um, any questions that you have. And if if you'd like to work with Jolene, I can give a shameless plug for her because I'm not her, right? It's part of my job. Um Jolene will take care of you. I hopefully you you you've seen this during the show, but but you you could not be working with a better professional than than Jolene, especially for this for for uh funeral planning and and estate planning. Uh, tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show, uh, Business Lessons from the

[58:01] military. And I'm gonna get my topic here real quickly. Uh, yes. Um, you need if you if you have a business, you need to have what I call a general quarters plan, which is what are you going to do if you're building if your business is in crisis? How are you going to handle that? You don't want to be handling it on the fly. You want to plan in advance. This is what the Navy does. They'll they'll call general quarters and everybody knows what what needs to be done when crisis hits. So, we're going to talk about that tomorrow, 10 a.m. on business lessons from the military. And

[58:36] then on um Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. is my show, People Making Money. And I'm going to be talking and you may think this is strange for a Trojan, but I'm going to be talking about one of the greatest coaches of all times, John Wooden. He was the basketball coach at UCLA for many, many years. Won, I believe it's 12 national championships in a in 13 or 14 years as coach. There is a tremendous amount of of wisdom that we can learn and apply to our our business,

[59:11] professional, and financial lives from how John Wooden uh coached his teams. And so, join me on Wednesday at 10:00 a.m., excuse me, for people making money. And then a week from today, we'll be back with the next edition of um Trust and Estates Weekly. and my guest is uh Tiffany Ballinger Floyd and she's going to talk about asset protection planning. We're really going to take a deep dive into this aspect of estate planning. So join uh Tiffany and me for

[59:46] our for our conversation a week from today. So again, Jolene, thank you so much for coming on the show. Just a tremendous amount of of of really good information for for people to have. I thank you so much. And for for my viewers who are watching live, always a treat to see you. Thank you. And and really appreciate um both your your watching and and your your questions and comments. So that all that leaves for me to do is to wrap things up by saluting you, Marie. You you are my bell. You know you are for now and ever

[60:22] afterwards.