The WAY to WOW Shows
Work Out Disputes in The Family Room Not the Courtroom
September 21, 2026
Automatically generated from YouTube captions; names and wording may contain errors.

[0:01] [music] Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemel, and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and probate administration. [snorts] Both from the standpoint of professionals like myself and my two guests whom I'll introduce in

[0:36] just a moment, but also for those of you who this is not what you do for a living. Maybe you got appointed as the, you know, executive of your parents uh will and now you're trying to get through this ridiculously opaque process. So hopefully this will give you some ideas, some information that will make it easier for you, help you communicate better with your advisors. So for on today's show, I'm very happy to introduce to you my guests Marcy Barrett and Cynthia Saffir. They are

[1:13] partners in elder resolution partners and they deal with hopefully uh mediating and settling disputes that arise um in this whole process of of it could be I suppose estate planning but I think probably primarily estate administration. So so ladies first of all thank you so much for uh joining me here on trust and estates weekly. Thanks for having us.

[1:43] >> Yeah. So, if if you would start out give us at least a little bit of your background so viewers and listeners can understand you who you are and um you know I can imagine growing up you weren't thinking gosh when I when I get out into the world I want to be a mediator. I know for me I wanted to be you know like an astronaut or you know something like that right but but uh but you know here you are doing this work so um you know share a little bit about that if you would.

[2:15] >> Sure thanks Kevin um and thanks for having us. So, first of all, I'm a um I'm a second generation Angelino. Um lived here my whole life and um let's see, growing up, I wanted to be a nurse. Um [laughter] that there's one this old book, Nurse Nancy, I think that you know, so that that influenced me. And then um everybody said, "Oh, you like to argue, you should go to law school." So, okay. Um, so that sort of led me uh to law school. Um,

[2:50] without aging myself, I will say I went to law school based on uh watching the old show The Paperchase, not LA Law.

[2:57] >> Oh. [laughter]

[2:59] >> So, but then once LA Law came out, I wanted to be Susan Day. I wanted I wanted to I wanted to be the litigator. I wanted to be in court. I and until I uh started doing that um I went to USC law school uh started out

[3:15] >> on

[3:16] >> my career in litigation and um and then at some point realized I don't really like litigation. I don't really like to have to be the one fighting. I like coming up with solutions. Um, in fact, in one of the first law firms I worked at, um, one of the the senior partners there, he he said, "You're the problem solver. You're like everybody comes in your office and closes the door to solve their problems." I'm like, "Yeah, yeah." He's like, he called me mother confessor. [laughter] So,

[3:49] >> okay. But, so anyway, so I decided at some point, ah, maybe litigation isn't isn't where it's at. So I took a nuts andbolts course on mediation and started a mediation practice. I was working at the time sort of like my last legal work was doing um representing homeowners associations which are notorious for fighting. And so instead that transitioned to doing some mediation with homeowners associations. But then in 2011

[4:24] um I took a course on elder family mediation and dealing with high conflict personalities and I uh met the lady sitting to my right and uh in 2012 we formed a business. we decided that uh this type of mediation is is our calling and it's uh kind of what we're meant to do and how to have a career and really help people in a meaningful way.

[4:52] >> Yes. [snorts] So um the only other thing I'll add is uh something I we bring to uh the mediation processes um you know I'm a daughter, a sister, a mom, I've been a daughter-in-law um all and a wife. And so all of these things um give me a lot of empathy uh with family members who are dealing with because I' I've been in their shoes. I've I've I've lived through pulling the plug on two parents. I've lived through uh hashing out details within my own

[5:29] family. So, it gives me perspective, I think, when when I'm talking to other people who are are going through difficult times.

[5:37] >> Yeah. Yeah. Very nice.

[5:41] >> I'm Cynthia Saffer. I'm the other partner in Elder Resolution Partners. I also started my career as an attorney. I can't say that I wanted to do that when I was a toddler, but as long as I can remember, I was up for a good argument. So, seemed kind of natural when the time came to go to law school. Um, I went to Lyola here in Los Angeles and practiced law for longer than I will admit. Um, I I won't say where I fall into the

[6:16] uh the legal programs that Marcy referred to, but um I worked uh in labor and employment law for many years for labor union

[6:28] >> and we didn't really go to court much although I as I said I I like a good fight. Um but we were mostly in arbitration as opposed to litigation. And I just got to a point where I thought there had to be a better way.

[6:47] >> Um, especially when it came to families because if families get embroiled in a litigation about whatever it is, but usually you know family related matters, it's not like they're going their separate ways afterwards. They're still going to be family members. So when I started learning about mediation and ultimately took the course that Marcy mentioned um elder family law and high conflict resolution, I found that I it really spoke to me

[7:22] >> and Marcy and I started talking. we had the brilliant idea of teaming up and since 2012 we've been teamed up and like Marcy uh I have played many roles in my life um from caregiving for grandparents and parents being a daughter a mother a sister uh haven't haven't had the sister-in-law role but [laughter] yeah I think we both bring a lot of personal knowledge and empathy to our

[7:59] work and use it to help us adult siblings to overcome communication problems um disputes that otherwise they're don't seem able to resolve amongst themselves and to try to carve a path forward for them. Mhm. So, it's interesting as you might imagine. I I talked to a lot of attorneys, you know, in the estate probate realm on this show, right? And um it's actually

[8:36] pretty rare that that's what they wanted to do initially getting into the law. They usually have started somewhere else litigation or you know um you this may you may be Cynthia you may be first labor lawyer turned [laughter] into this area but but they usually start out in an area that is much higher conflict and then they I don't know I think somehow gravitate to this area of the law which um I know from my previous career in real estate um I had considered considered um becoming a

[9:12] lawyer prior to getting into real estate. And one of the things that turned me off was the the lawyer that I clerked for was involved in like personal injury and litigation. It's like ah this is just you know as as a middle child who was always mediating between his sisters. I I I I don't think I had the

[9:32] >> you know kind of the wherewithal to deal with that. Um and then when I met you know various estate planning attorneys I I found wow these this is a whole different way of approaching um not just the law but I think sort of professional practice in general and and both of you seem to have made that that that same journey. So, uh I don't know if you want to, you know, comment on that, but

[10:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's um it's true that a lot of people wind up going into estate planning because it's like, oh, all of a sudden I can just be with one family or one person and I can be I can just be helping them make a plan and doing some good. and the type of work where you're sort of not one and done necessarily, but it's sort of like you have a very defined job, a def very defined role.

[10:29] >> Um, when you're involved in litigation, it's just it's not as defined what you're doing and also um we see a lot of wasted money going into litigation. um there can be great estate planning but if there has to be litigation afterwards it eats up the whole estate. So I think the having the mind frame of getting it right from the beginning uh so it doesn't have to be litigated you know or fought as hard down the line is very appealing to people.

[11:04] >> Yeah. And I think that most attorneys who go into litigation um their their practice is really built on conflict. [clears throat]

[11:14] >> If there's no conflict, there are no court cases.

[11:18] >> And court cases take a long time and can generate a lot of income if you're an attorney. And as Marcy said, can certainly drain assets if you're one of the litigants,

[11:29] >> right? um if if estates are planned well and especially if it's possible to get everybody on board in the planning stage can really avoid a lot of the conflict later on

[11:43] >> and then for conflict that can't be avoided we try to facilitate resolving that conflict outside of the courtroom

[11:54] >> which is a faster hopefully less expensive process.

[11:59] >> Right. Right. So before we get into how you deal with disputes or how they arise, how you get involved, talk if you would about the kind of things that you see that uh attorneys and people involved in the estate planning process could do to avoid, you know, conflict down the road because one of the things I've noticed is um a

[12:34] lot of times it's it you know a planning process takes place and and everybody seems to be on board while the parent is alive um and then the parent dies and all of a sudden it's like you know a nuclear bomb went off and it turns out the parent was the one keeping everybody in check and now that the parents gone

[12:52] >> well it's kind of you know all all all bets are off. So

[12:57] >> yeah and I you know I think that so often is is the case and particularly to some extent we see it more when the mom dies uh because the mom is has the traditional role of keeping the family together making the whether it's making the pot roast or the strudel or whatever but getting everybody together to talk. So getting back to sort of like your initial question is what professionals can do it's talk it's imagine the worst case scenario and talk about the worst case scenario. Um we often you know we do some presentations where we tell

[13:33] people um it's okay to say the word death, dying, suffering, pain. It's not because those are happy words but just by saying them I don't bring them on. I don't have that power. [snorts] Um,

[13:46] >> yeah, there seems to be this superstition among people that if they say, you know, I recognize that you're not going to live much longer that somehow that person it's going to die the next day. And it just doesn't work that way.

[14:01] >> It doesn't unless they're like waiting for that release, you know, kind of like waiting to be told it's okay. But it doesn't, you know, it just doesn't work that way. So talking about it, what everybody says they want, you know, they want to die at home, they want to stay at home until the very end. Well, talk about what does that look like? Are you okay then with a hospital bed being brought into your living room because it's not going to fit in your bedroom or make it up the stairs and having 24hour care and you know the real estate implication of someone dying at home and

[14:36] is that the you know is that the last memory you want for your kids to be your dead body in the living room where they used to have Christmas or Hanukkah? Probably most people would say no. Um, also PE, you know, just from the standpoint of how long do you want to live at home? People say, you know, I want to stay at home. I want to stay at home. Okay. But, um, do who do you want to take care of you? Do you want your kids? They're taking your No, no, no. I don't want to trouble them. I don't want to. So, talk about talking about all of that beforehand. The estate planning process, I mean, some people it's just, okay, yeah, I have two kids split at it

[15:11] 50/50.

[15:12] >> Okay. What does that mean? because there's one kid who wants the house and one kid who doesn't have the money to buy them out of the house. What is that really going to mean? So, I think a good estate planning attorney kind of talks makes the family talk through it. And if they can't and there the issues arise, then that's when they send send it to us. We because you know an attorney attorney can only represent you know the party who is before him. So, an attorney, him or her, an attorney represents the person who's writing out the will. The attorney can't re

[15:48] represent the beneficiaries uh to the will. So, if there's issues, talk them out beforehand because if you know, if if not, then you're, you know, in the uh hospital hallway arguing. Um you're uh so mad at siblings that they won't sit next to each other at a funeral. or I was just talking to a fiduciary who was telling me something about like that there there had to be four separate funerals because people couldn't be together. So, you know, it's uh talk talk communicate communicate

[16:23] communicate.

[16:24] >> And if I can add to that, I for instance, I have a friend who's from grew up in the Midwest

[16:30] >> and families that grew up in communities like hers do not talk about money. So when they do their estate planning, they, you know, whether they're married or they're single, they do it on their own and they're not talking to the beneficiaries or the ultimate beneficiaries or, you know, they don't have buy in. So it's a complete surprise when the person dies and the estate has to be dealt with.

[16:59] >> [clears throat]

[16:59] >> Um, and just to sort of emphasize what Marcy was saying, one of the things that I think is really asking for trouble is to be saying just split everything equally. We've had families where one wants to sell the house, one wants the house to be rented out, one wants the house to be maintained just as a family home where people can vacation or whatever.

[17:24] >> And how do you resolve it?

[17:27] >> It it's it's tough. And there can be a lot of angst and arguing and you don't want to wait until there's an emergency [clears throat]

[17:37] >> to try to work all of that out.

[17:42] >> What do you think about the idea of, you know, lawyers asking their clients, you know, what is the state of relations between your your potential heirs, your potential beneficiaries? uh and and um I you know kind of I guess trying to dig those out maybe uh you know again as part of the estate planning process are you know are people self-aware enough will they be candid you know or or

[18:16] >> they may not know they may not [clears throat] know I mean what what happens at least in our mediation practice is people the adult siblings for instance will be at each other's throats about something, but when they come in front of us, they're on their best behavior.

[18:34] >> So, you don't necessarily have the sense of the the level of discord amongst them.

[18:41] >> And it could be the same with the parents. They come to visit, you know, at a holidays or or whatever it is, and they don't want to trouble mom or dad or both of them with their problems amongst themselves. Mhm.

[18:55] >> So they're not going to demonstrate all of that in front of parents, especially at holidays.

[19:01] >> So, you know, certainly it's worth asking, but it's not necessarily a good barometer of what's really going on.

[19:09] >> Also, we see a lot the situation where parents will say whatever they think the adult child in front of them wants to hear.

[19:19] >> Um, so sometimes it's like, oh no, my relationship with Suzie is great. Yeah. My relationship with Joey is great and my relationship with Marty is great. Okay, but you told each of them they could have the house. Each of them think that they can have the house. How does that work? Do we do we take a chainsaw and split the house in three pieces and each can take their little piece and go wherever they want? How does how does that really work? So, I think having an honest conversation sometimes sometimes it can happen. Sometimes though for from the perspective of an estate planning

[19:54] attorney that almost gets a little in that gray area of who are you representing here and how far can you go? And so that's sort of the well bringing in a neutral party and sure we'd love it to be us but sometimes it can just be another family member, a um you know a religious leader, a comm you know other people uh sometimes can be brought in. But the idea is someone else also hearing what everybody has to say. Um because then it sort of it's not so much

[20:31] that it's you once it's spoken it then it at least it's there might be better understanding.

[20:37] >> Right. Right. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back for some more.

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[21:23] or visit magnumprops.com. So, so let let's move on to I guess more directly where you might get involved and and and that that is the question. So um what is the process or the situation through which you ladies would get involved with uh wi with a with a case with an estate or a you know probate t talk us through that so people can

[21:58] understand when it might be appropriate to bring in you know a mediator. So when people ask me the the when question, my answer is always the same. Now just now. Bring us in now. Um because it's not like the fighting isn't going to get better. The disputes aren't going to get smaller until some sort something is worked out. So there's two main areas that of work you could say or uh issues that fall into two main areas. and one is going to be pre-death and one is

[22:35] going to be post-death. So the um the the pre-death matters um people are often bringing us in because we have uh families that can't get along to decide uh caregiving responsibilities um distribution of assets how you know

[22:54] >> or use of assets of assets persons

[22:56] >> right

[22:57] >> um understanding that inheritance comes after someone passes away is something that we discuss in ous situation. It's not It's not your money now.

[23:10] >> It's not your money until it's your money. Yeah. And it's not person.

[23:14] >> Yeah.

[23:15] >> Yeah. That brings a particularly egregious memory to mind where heirs were fighting over the their mother's assets while she was still alive and needed the money to pay for her, you know, for her care. was

[23:28] >> well that's that's huge that we get that all the time that you sort of the way we refer to it is that we want mom or dad to have the absolute best care but don't spend too much money on it and we don't trust what you're spending the money on [clears throat] so

[23:45] >> right

[23:46] >> and in this case because of the way the estate plan was written one child was getting the house and the other child was getting the portfolio of stocks and so which you know whichever one if the house was sold that person was effectively disinherited right um and if the stocks were used that person was losing part of theirs so it would have not have been equal any longer right and that's and so you know let the blood bath begin right

[24:12] >> absolutely

[24:13] >> so there was a one of the families that we worked with one time it was a brother and a sister and the um aging mom had fairly advanced Alzheimer's she was not part of the process she couldn't be uh We never met her. Um, this family owned a lot of property. Um, the mom was living in an apartment. Um, the conditions were so poor that they had to bring in bottles of water for the caregivers to use to wash their hands. Not just to drink, but to wash their hands because what was coming out of the pipes was so horrible. And in that

[24:49] situation, one of the siblings was the power of attorney for health care and one was the power of attorney for finances and they would not agree on anything. Um, and we can say, oh, money should have should not have been any, you know, object for them because there was plenty of it, but not in their minds. And we asked both of them finally like, would you live like this the way your mom is living? And they both said no.

[25:16] >> And they both said no. It was shocking

[25:18] >> just like no there's no way I would live like that. Why are you But it was just because there was just it was just so much disagreement and all of it probably you know a lot of it goes back to who liked mom best. I'm sorry. Who mom likes best? Um

[25:35] >> like brothers.

[25:36] >> Yeah. Who got who got piano lessons and who didn't? Um who uh they spent more money on one wedding than another wedding. I it was just all it was just it was just crazy and horrifying because you know the poor woman was living out her last breaths in deplorable situation because they were fighting and they were fighting about money that wasn't theirs yet. So um but getting back to your question so the second set of cases would be when it's post death when there's either probate or an anticipated probate. um

[26:13] it's already in litigation or it's about to get into litigation. Those when when it can come to us pre-litigation anytime even sometimes attorneys have been involved, sometimes attorneys are not involved, but anytime you can keep the decision making within the family and away from the person wearing the black robe. Um, you know, uh, I know a lot of judges. I love judges. It it's but part of what we say is don't judge. You know, don't [laughter] don't don't go down that path because unless your estate is huge, small estates just get eaten up

[26:49] between attorneys and experts and court fees and guardian fees. And so any anytime someone can get to us pre-litigation that's that's ideal

[27:03] >> and and the outcome of that is that the family itself is making the decisions. They are ultimately all buying into a plan. So theoretically that ends the fighting. Whereas, if you go to court, as Marcy mentioned, someone else who has no stake in the family and probably doesn't know a whole lot about the family is ultimately making the decisions. But I also wanted to mention that one area that often is problematic, which sort of goes with the lack of communication from the

[27:40] elders, is that they may specify that someone is the trustee or the executive or before death that someone has the power of attorney for health care or finances or both. and they don't know that ahead of time and feelings get hurt. You know, maybe it's not the firstborn child that's named. Um maybe it's not the accountant and it's it's just a decision the parent made and they're finding out about it and

[28:15] someone's not happy about it and they're going to make trouble.

[28:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean again I I see that in in my practice um you know quite quite frequently and [clears throat] it it's it's kind of inexplicable. I I think too going back to Marcy what you were saying about avoiding the black robes. Um the probate courts are so busy. um the judge has so little time to understand what's going on because there's 30 cases stacked up, you know, waiting. So, it's even if the judge

[28:55] wants to understand, a lot of times they they just feel they cannot take the time to do that. And because there's so many cases, it's just things get continued. I was in court, I think it was last month, things were getting continued for six months,

[29:10] >> you know, which it it just drags out interminatively, right? And so every and and there's really I'm talking about LA Superior Court. Um but it it you know, there's nothing really that can be done. I mean, short of I guess of building another courthouse and bringing in a lot more judges, right? So,

[29:30] >> I also think that um once you get in front of a judge, a lot of times the first thing they say is, "Okay, well, I'm ordering you out to mediation."

[29:38] >> And so, what we advise people is if you can walk into the courtroom and say, "We already mediated. We couldn't come to a resolution." Then you you might get a little bumped up a little faster in the process because you've tried it. as opposed to when the courts order people out to mediation. A lot of times people just go with the um I know like the big box store mediations um [laughter] which they're great and you'll get in front of a retired judge there and the retired judge will have every family member or every faction sitting in a separate room and the judge will you know the me as the mediator

[30:14] will go back and forth and and maybe hash out a deal but the relationships are still going to be just as damaged if not more damaged. Our our form of mediation is bring everybody to the table all together. As uncomfortable as that is, um, as hard as that is, we make people talk to each other. And sometimes we get everybody afterwards hugging and kissing and I'm sorry and I love you and and sometimes it's just like, okay, I can live with this. There's something I

[30:49] can live with. But if you do the mediation our way, the next time you see your family member at somebody's wedding or a graduation or something, you're you're going to be at least able to be civil.

[31:02] >> If you go that other route, it's you're just ending an already strained relationship.

[31:10] >> How did you I mean, I've been involved in mediation. So, how did you come to the conclusion that having all the parties face to face I is the best way to handle these? Because I I I can think of situations where, you know, people sitting face to face, it's it's it's just, you know, dynamite waiting for the fuse to be lit, right? and and and so gosh, you know, I I I'm I'm respect that that's how you do it. I'm I'm wondering how you came to the

[31:47] conclusion that was the best way and how do you manage what I can only think at least at times are very very um volatile situations.

[31:57] >> Absolutely. Um we came to the conclusion we both did some mediation before doing elder care mediation or elder family mediation of civil cases and you know that was the shuttle diplomacy model and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but it didn't involve family members generally

[32:22] >> and you know your your sibling relationship is almost certainly certainly going to be the longest relationship you have in your life. And no matter how angry you are at your siblings, they're still your sibling. And our hope is to maintain those family relationships and try to to cool the tension. And I don't we both believe that you can't do that if those if they can't see each other. they can't feel see each other's body language or or see the angst on their face. We have had

[32:59] situations where we had a family of five sisters and a mother who was involved in it and they would not at the beginning of the mediation look at each other and we said okay talk to us. So, you know, they started talking and still the rest of the family's there so they can hear what's happening and ultimately, you know, didn't actually take that long that the conversation was between everybody [clears throat]

[33:28] >> and you know, as Marcy said, sometimes we get to that kumbaya moment where everybody goes, "Yes, this is good. We actually love each other." and um go out for margaritas afterwards. [laughter] Um and sometimes they go out, you know, stiff upper lip and and leave, but are able to at least have some level of communication with each other according to a plan that that we've helped them come up with. And

[33:59] >> I think along those same lines, um we control the our mediation room. We do not let the participants control it. We control the order of when things are discussed. We don't let people talk over each other. If someone is getting, you know, physically agitated, we we have ways to calm people down. If we have to, we will separate people into other rooms. Um but always with the goal of let's get back together then.

[34:29] >> Um

[34:30] >> we almost never have to do that.

[34:32] >> No, it's rare. We people, you know, people behave with us. They're, you know,

[34:38] >> generally

[34:38] >> generally so [laughter] we don't or

[34:43] >> I haven't had to take a baseball bat to anyone yet.

[34:46] >> Okay. [laughter] So talk about I I I hesitate to to phrase this question, but talk about how a typical mediation works and and recognizing that typical is probably not real. There is no such thing as a typical one per se, I suppose. But you know, how does it how you know, how are people contacted? you know, how do you, you know, get their agreement to participate kind of how does it work? What is the time span? You

[35:23] know, those those kinds of of things so people can get a a really, you know, as good an idea as possible about the overall how this works.

[35:33] >> Well, people come to us from various sources. Um some actually are just talking to chat GPT and you know trying to find out how to resolve adult sibling um issues. Um some come to us through other attorneys um who are dealing with families or trying to deal with families that they just can't get through to. Um, and sometimes it's a social worker or the Alzheimer's Association, whatever. And we have an initial conversation with

[36:08] whoever reaches out to us, explain the process and what's involved. And generally, they will reach out to their siblings and propose mediation. Um the thing that makes it a little bit tough is that except when it's a court-ordered mediation, it's voluntary.

[36:29] >> So for everybody to come to the table, they have to agree. And to the extent that we can help that process by explaining it to the other family members, we'll do that. And once they agree to give it a try at least, then we have conversations with each family member who's going to participate individually.

[36:52] >> So that gives us an opportunity to break down some of the barriers um and let them get to know us a bit. Let us hear from them what they think the issues and the problems are. see if they have particular goals that they want to accomplish in the mediation. So we spend half an hour to an hour talking with each person and we maintain confidentiality over those conversations. But that also allows us to identify the most important and you know sort of a

[37:28] priority list of issues that need to be addressed. And you know we have our way of deciding what comes first and you don't necessarily jump into the big thing right away um because you're going to get the most resistance to that.

[37:45] >> But you know we build um agreement as we go. It's it's not our place to make decisions.

[37:52] >> It's our place to guide the conversation and make sure everybody is fully informed on what options may exist.

[38:02] >> Um, and then we meet with them. Marcy and I mediate together, which we find to be a real benefit both to us and the families. Um, it gives us the opportunity to have two sets of eyes on people. I can Marcy may be asking questions and I can observe everybody's body language or I can see that somebody's upset about something and is just holding it in and we can make sure that we get to that person during the conversation. Um, generally I would say from people first contacting us

[38:38] and depending on what kind of a a case it is. [snorts] If it's has to do with somebody who is still living and care issues are fairly emergent, we make time within a week or two to meet with the family.

[38:57] >> If [clears throat] it's something that is not emergent, we will wait longer. Um just we'll accommodate their schedule basically. We also because we work um

[39:12] >> we're so global now um we do a lot of it on Zoom. Uh I'd rather have everybody, you know, sitting around the same table, but the reality is getting, you know, eight schedules to match to be sitting in at a conference room, you know, in downtown Los Angeles or wherever. That just doesn't always happen. So,

[39:32] >> they don't always live in the same states even. over or in the same country for that matter. So, um you know, ever since the co we um really adapted to doing it on Zoom um and we also we're pretty flexible about the amount of hours. If we're, you know, meeting with people, first of all, if the person who is the elder is involved in it, we know that they probably only have about a three-hour span where they're going to be able to concentrate um and and be

[40:07] focused. So, we'll set a mediation for three hours and then we might set one the following day for three hours or it might be two weeks later. Um, sometimes we go because people are flying in from from out of town and they say, "No, we want a whole day." Fine, we'll do eight, 10 hours, you know, whatever it takes. We'll bring dinner in if we need to bring dinner in.

[40:28] >> Um, we also sometimes it'll come up in the mediation that, okay, um, you've spoken already, you know, with attorneys, but have you spoken with a realtor? What's the value of this house that you're fighting over? Um, and something that that often comes up is, well, I want to make a bunch of improvements to it. I want the house looking great when we put it up for sale. And then some realtors are like, spray some water on the driveway, make sure the bathrooms are clean, and you sell it as is. So,

[41:00] >> because they're going to change it anyway,

[41:01] >> right? Exactly. [laughter]

[41:02] >> Right.

[41:03] >> So, with that in mind, we'll say, look, you each need to go talk to a realtor about this and then let's meet again in a week. report back what you found out. Let's keep the conversation going then. So, we call it assigning homework. [laughter] So, um the homework might be talking to a realtor or a different professional. The homework might be soulsearching like

[41:26] >> if is you know is this the you know your your your I'm gonna die if I don't get this. Is this your um how strong are you on I have to be the one making this decision? Um how you know I bring up a story with my sister. When my uh grandma died, my sister insisted she wanted grandma's china. She was going to have grandma's china and she didn't care. I could have anything else. My mom could have anything else. So we we split everything up. That china sat in a box for about 30 years until last

[42:03] Thanksgiving when I brought it out at my house [laughter] for but at that point for my sister that's what was important is one of grandma's china. So if that's you know giving people sometimes time to really think through what what is important to you. Let you know think about this now.

[42:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's take another break and we'll come back and and talk for a little while longer. [snorts] Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration. Featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Bralet, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you

[42:59] quickly find the clearest, most practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time searching. So how does um the um the participants in a mediation how does how does that dynamic change when they're represented by council? You know are you know are lawyers you know there during the mediation? Do you

[43:34] you know no you have to go out if it's just you know just with the principles. How does how does that work?

[43:39] >> Sure. Great question. um it can work however the family wants it to work um

[43:45] >> or or I should say however the attorneys want

[43:48] >> and sometime it's yeah sometimes the attorneys insist they want to be part of it or they want to be speaking for their client if look if they want a traditional mediation they want to sit in separate rooms we can accommodate that we've done that in for probate litigations it's not our preference but if that's the the attorney's preference and that's if that's going to be what gets it done we'll do it that or we will have the situation where everybody's sitting at the table and the attorneys are at the table and then the attorneys decide how much they want to let their client talk versus how much they're going to talk. Um when we do

[44:23] have matters where there's attorneys um one thing we do is we don't want briefs. I you know I don't want to read a 25page brief on why you're going to win in court. you know, I I it's not really going to help me decide or help the family decide, you know, what's in their best interest or what they can live with. We will tell lawyers, give us a write us a little letter, you know, a memo, two pages, tell us what's going on. Um, if you want to tell us why you think you're going to win, tell us. But you don't have to cite case law going

[45:00] for back 50 years as to why you're going to win. Um it's because it's not and it's not arbitration. That's arbitration that if you want binding arbitration,

[45:09] >> there's plenty of people we suggest you go to. Um but for mediation purposes as an attorney be involved in the mediation. Um it's sort of, you know, the more you let your client talk really the the the better it or the faster we're going to get to a resolution. Um, and understanding that after you're done, after we're done, family is still family. You can't you you can't divorce your siblings. You can't divorce your cousins.

[45:41] >> And and one of the the main problems I'll say with having attorneys present, especially the ones that won't let their client speak, is that it removes the emotion from the the mediation. And the mediation is largely about emotion.

[46:02] >> If if that isn't expressed somehow um preferably by the participants, it's not you might have a resolution on paper,

[46:14] >> but not necessarily a resolution that aids the relationship at all.

[46:20] >> I that that is that that's a fascinating observation. Um, and it it strikes me that because I I have this conversation h having been a chaplain in a past life. Uh, I have this conversation with people in our industry quite often about how my work as a chaplain informs what I do administrating an estate because there's always an emotional component to it. somebody's sick, somebody has died, there are, you know, past issues and and

[46:56] and all of that. And um probate seems to be the process by which either that those things get worked out or worked through or they're exacerbated.

[47:12] >> Absolutely.

[47:12] >> Yeah.

[47:13] >> Something we uh explain to people is we're not therapists. We're not trained therapists. That being said, this is a very therapeutic process. There's a lot of negativity that gets um released. There's uh we cry with people at their mediation. We laugh at the mediation. We always have a box of tissues handy. Um it's because it it it's hard. I it's raw. It's it's so emotional. Um we come out of the mediation just drained

[47:48] sometimes. just absolutely drained and I'm always just happy I get to go back home to my crazy family instead of [laughter]

[47:59] >> So it it's having you know spoken with you ladies for going on an hour now um it strikes me that you have um different temperaments that are very complimementaryary and and I'm wondering wondering how the dynamic between the two of you works if if you care to you know talk about that a little bit. But how does how does the dynamic between the two of you sort of serve this process of I I think somehow

[48:35] connecting with you know the the uh you know the people in the mediation and and and helping them you know work through the emotions and the you know the traumas and such. We've known each other for quite a while now

[48:51] >> and you we know each other. We know each other's lives, each other's families. Um so we bring a familiarity to the mediations, but um we're also very open during a mediation. Like Marcy said, if if it's highly emotional, we may cry along with them. We're very present. And I think by bringing our different styles to the mediation that it helps

[49:29] others feel more comfortable about bringing their own styles and truth to the mediation.

[49:36] >> And sometimes one of us has to be bad cop. I have to say that does surprise me. [laughter] Okay.

[49:45] >> But also, you know, when we're mediating with people, the participants often will relate more to one of us than to the other. And I [clears throat] think sometimes it's because they see a little bit of themselves and one of us. And we sort of we pick up on that kind of thing. We're very perceptive people. And so we pick up on that kind of thing and and we play off of that. So, if there's someone who I know is really going to be more in agreement with me or I kind of can sense like I'm jing with that person right now, I might talk to to them in a

[50:21] certain way. Um, that might be completely different in a in a different situation. In a different situation, I might be there more, you know, prim and proper and in one situation I might be saying, "Well, f that." You know, it's we we we judge our audience. So, we're we're coming up on a time limit now, but there's one more question I I I want to ask you, and that is um toward the beginning of the show. I I forget the I don't remember the context in which it came up, but um one of you brought up the idea of kind of giving permission. Oh, I know it was it was

[50:57] somebody who, you know, was probably, you know, death was imminent and they were sort of waiting for permission to let go. So, I'm curious to know [clears throat] how often or how big a part of your work involves almost like because I I see this in my work kind of giving people permission permission to let go of the anger or the resentment or or or all because I think sometimes what I've noticed is if I can

[51:33] get, you know, down below the surface to the actual person [snorts] and and just basically say, you know, I I I hear what you're saying, but

[51:43] >> don't you think it's time to, you know, move on? It's okay if you move on. You don't need to cling to this thing that you've been clinging to for so long. So, I'm curious about that aspect knowing that you're not therapists.

[51:58] >> [laughter] [gasps]

[51:59] >> I think we've we have said to people like, "How how long do you want to keep arguing about this? How long do you want to keep living this way, being angry?" Um, how long do you want to keep paying us to listen to [laughter] each other?

[52:15] >> We've literally said that to people.

[52:18] >> We'll sit here. Okay, you want to keep you keep writing the checks. We'll we'll sit here. Listen. But [laughter] really, what you know, what are you getting out of this? So I think like giving people sort of a I think there's something like I said therapeutic about just getting it off your chest and even if nobody agrees with you in the room but having said it out loud and having said it out loud in front of a neutral party there is something that gives them such release that they can then move on or move past it or realize sometimes you know we get

[52:54] these thoughts in our head too about things and then when you say it out loud you're like that's the stupidest thing I was ever thinking [laughter] why was I so hung up on that you know what is what does that matter so um I think sort of creating a safe place for people to talk to let the emotion out and to understand like you're not going to agree with everybody on every single thing but you're going to listen to what everybody has to say because they have a right to say it

[53:24] >> and they have a right to be heard Yes. A right to be heard. And you don't have to agree, but you have to listen.

[53:31] >> Very good. Well, I you know, I'm I'm gonna have to have you ladies back because I I'd love to delve into this some more, but um what I want to um

[53:43] >> um so bring up this is um this is your website um Elder Resolution Partners LLC. So, for those of you who are watching, if you'd like to get in touch with uh Marcy and Cynthia, if you look right down below the show, you'll see in the show notes the the URL to their website, and I'm I'm sure they'll be happy to speak with you about whatever the challenge is that you're facing and and and how this process could potentially help you get to uh a a solution uh you know, more

[54:19] more quickly. Um and um we'll come back out of that. Ladies, I I really want to thank you for for spending this time with me today. Uh I as I started out at the beginning of the show, I I see the kind of conflict uh you know that that that with which you deal um far too frequently. And uh it's I I I but I haven't met um anyone who really specializes in in mediation in in this specific area. So it's it's

[54:55] it's great to know that that you know that you're that you're there that you're you know that you're here and and able to help people through. So just any sort of you know closing thoughts before we wrap up here? No, I think that what I'd like to close with is is sort of the tagline on our website is that family conflict should be resolved in the living room, not in the courtroom.

[55:22] >> And that's what we strive to accomplish.

[55:25] >> Yeah, I'm that would be, you know, that would be wonderful, right? If if if we could uh make progress toward that, if if not make it the the standing rule. So, well, thank you so much. I'm going to do a quick wrap and we'll talk offline for just a moment.

[55:40] >> So, so folks uh you know I

[55:43] >> if you are facing these kinds of issues I I can't encourage you more to reach out to to Cynthia and Marcy. They obviously they can help you. I I hopefully you can feel it. I I I could when I was talking with the two of you uh there were I could feel my stress level dropping at times just talking to you. Uh and and I think that that's a testament to the the the quality of what you do. So so so reach out even if you think your siblings or whoever won't be open to it. [snorts] I think it's worth

[56:19] it's worth the the try and and maybe with Cynthia and Marcy's help you can um you know bring about a solution that will not only not further damage relationships but maybe even heal them a little bit. Um, so real quickly, schedule of shows. Mondays at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time, like today, Trust and Estates Weekly, Tuesdays at 10 a.m. Pacific time, business lessons from the military. Wednesdays at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time, people making money. And then every other Thursday at 5:00 p.m.

[56:54] Pacific time. I knew it was going to blow the Pacific. One of those times. 5:00 PM Pacific time. Every other Thursday, join me at Jiggers's place. will have a cocktail and a schmoo and talk about all those things that have nothing to do with finances. So, I thank you very much for joining us today. If you know someone who may be facing this kind of situation, maybe send them a link to the show so they can see how they might that that that how how Marcy and Cynthia may be able to help them. Um, and that's, you

[57:31] know, maybe a subtle way of saying, "Hey, try another direction, right?" And if you, if you look below, you'll see links to social media. Um, where do you see um the biggest challenges in resolving conflicts in in the development of an estate plan or in the administration of a trust or a probate? So, drop that into the show notes that that comment. I I'm I'm always interested to hear your thoughts on that and and I'll be happy

[58:06] to respond and I'm I'm sure I can get Marcy or Cynthia to chime in if it's something related directly to uh what they're saying or what they're what they're doing. So, ladies, one more time, thank you so much for joining me here on Trust Weekly.

[58:21] >> Great.

[58:21] >> Thank you.

[58:21] >> Thank you so much. And that just leaves me to sign off by reminding you all, Marie darling, you are my