The WAY to WOW Shows
Trust Is a Skill You Can Build
October 28, 2026
Automatically generated from YouTube captions; names and wording may contain errors.

[0:02] Today on people making money, my guest is Charles Feltman who wrote the thin book of trust. Stay tuned, you're not going to want to miss it.

[0:13] >> [music]

[0:13] >> Who are you? And where are you going? What do you [music] want?

[0:28] >> Hello and welcome to people making money. I'm your host Kevin Bemmel and I'm here every Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about job hunting and being an employee, starting and running a business, and building wealth. Really the whole financial side of our lives. Typically, I run those topics in kind of repertoire, but I'm taking a break out from a break from that today because I'm I met a fellow who you see here with me, Charles Feltman, who wrote this really terrific book, The Thin Book of Trust.

[1:04] And while and then the subtitle is an essential primer for building for building trust at work. So, although the book is written for a business audience, I think it redounds far beyond just the relationships we have with people at work. I think so much of it is really about any relationship in our life. And so I said, you know, want to have you on the show, got to have you on the show. We had a we had a great conversation, I think a

[1:39] couple of weeks ago where I don't know, we talked like we've known each other for, you know, well, we both kind of have the gray hair, so you know, a long long time.

[1:49] >> You still but you still have some, so

[1:52] >> [laughter]

[1:53] >> You know, I thank my mother.

[1:56] >> [clears throat]

[1:56] >> Not to sound too much like George M. Cohan, but uh but uh so so so Charles, welcome to People Making Money. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

[2:07] >> You're very welcome. I enjoyed that conversation we had and I'm looking forward to the one today.

[2:12] >> Great. So I ask all my guests to start out by telling the audience a little bit about themselves so people can get to know you. So give us at least a snippet of your background.

[2:26] >> Sure, I'd be happy to do that. I um uh I work in the Silicon Valley tech industry back a long time ago. Um back in the 1980s and into the '90s. Um and then uh it We were we were making things like we were I was part of a networking and communications kind of revolution that was going on there at the time. We were like going to change the world and and we did actually. Our the products that our companies came out with really did change the world. Um but then I decided to go off on my own

[3:01] and create a consulting firm, which I did, but I I was not I was an okay consultant. Consulting is like giving people advice and I love to do that. Um however, I ran into this thing that was just kind of emerging at the time called coaching. And it seemed to be really much more up my alley, if you will.

[3:25] >> Mhm.

[3:25] >> So I started doing that around um 1997 and um have been doing it ever since. Uh I work with executives and leaders, actually multiple levels within organizations. Um helping them to figure out for themselves who they are, what's important to them, and uh really in many ways transform themselves into the leaders that they that their organizations need and that they really want to be in their organizations. So that's kind of the work that I do.

[4:01] and um I'm married. I've actually been married three different times, and this one is the the last, and it's wonderful. And I have two three children and three grandchildren.

[4:19] >> Wow.

[4:20] >> And as I like to say, I I have some cool-sounding um uh titles and whatever, but I think what's really important to me is that that I'm uh a grandfather and a father and a husband, and those are the things that really You know, I I love my clients, and I and I love being a dad and a uh grandfather and a husband.

[4:47] >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I couldn't agree more with your priorities. So, before we get into the book, just a thought struck me, and that is that you got in when you got into coaching, and especially on the the subject subjects that you coach, I I I think you really were kind of at at the beginning of something very important, cuz when I talk to younger people who are in the business world today, these kinds of issues seem to loom much larger

[5:22] than they did, at least to my recollection, you know, when I got started in the business world, which now is, you know, back in the kind of early mid-1980s. I'm just curious to hear your perspective on that. How How How How have you seen that?

[5:42] >> I think the fundamental issues that drive people, especially particularly leaders, um has has shifted. Um the people who are I'm not I'm not quite clear on your question, so I'm I kind of rethink it. So, maybe I should you should just go back and

[6:03] >> Yeah, so I I just I I think that you know, when I started in the business world, you know, I did what my boss told me. I never sort of questioned that he knew what was going on, that I I'm not sure I even really thought about, you know, what is the purpose of this business, you know, what are the values of this business. Uh to us I just I think I just sort of took all that for granted. My impression is young people don't do that. They're much more questioning. Um and they're much more concerned about

[6:38] these issues.

[6:40] >> I think that is true to a um certainly to a degree. Uh it's different. It's a different world in that respect. I think people do want to have They want to feel like they're working for um younger people particularly want to feel like they're working for a company that reflects their values, that they're um and that actually respects and honors them as human beings um beyond what they can do for the company. And they they have lost sight of the fact that um they also need to be doing something productive for the company. Um or if they have, they're quickly going to find themselves without work.

[7:17] Because companies still need to make money. That's the whole purpose of the companies that um people are working in. So, for a from a leader's perspective, that actually requires a different kind of leadership.

[7:33] >> Yeah.

[7:33] >> Leadership is more human-centered, um less uh you know, command and control and directive. Um of course we go through, you know, cycles around that as well.

[7:45] >> Yeah.

[7:45] >> Um and I think kind of directive and you know, command and control kind of comes and goes. Right now for some some while we've kind of it's kind of ebbed. And we're in in most companies, not a lot and and and you know, you find that too in pockets of certain companies there'll be a real command and control kind of leader. Um And they're often valued because they appear to be getting things done. However, they're they often also losing their best people.

[8:17] >> Yeah. Yeah, I I you know, I don't want to spend too much time on this, but I I often think, you know, coming I work for a generation of people who either were actively in World War II or came out of it. And I think one of the lessons they learned was command and control works because we defeated, you know, fascism with it, right? And so there wasn't really a sense of of questioning that. And I was [clears throat] raised, I think, in that gestalt. Um but I I I have a certain admiration for young people today who

[8:53] uh you know, they their approach to the world is different as as well it it would be because they were raised in in different times. And uh and and I agree, leaders definitely have to to adapt uh to, you know, the society in which in which we're running businesses.

[9:12] >> Yeah, absolutely.

[9:14] >> So so let's let's let's talk now, you know, about the this is this is the book, the the thin book of trust. You see it here. Um and it's actually it's in its third edition. That that all by itself is impressive. Uh so what was the the problem or issue that uh sort of uh com- compels you, you know, to to write a book? Um it's it's not a particularly long book. It's what, about a little over 100 pages? Still, I've written a book. Lot of work. Takes takes dedication,

[9:49] right? So what what what what what's what's what's behind that?

[9:55] >> So back when I was writing it in 2008, um I had been using the framework that's in the book with my clients, with certain clients of mine, and and it seemed to be valuable for them, but it seems like almost every client I've ever had has at some point or another during my work with them come up against a trust issue trust issue of some kind. And so the that framework and and sort of the approach I have to was helpful for them. Um so I wrote a little white paper and put it on my website so more people could read it.

[10:32] Um and I you know I'd often thought gosh it'd be great if I could get the word out a little bit more than you know just me working with people and and other people that I I know who also kind of use a similar framework or the same framework. Um had either learned it from me or learned parts of it from other sources. So that was kind of what I was sitting with when the Thin Book Publishing Company contacted me and said hey would you saw this you know white paper on your website and we think it would make a really good thin book if you just

[11:08] expand it a little bit. And so that was really the impetus for me it's like oh wow a book will actually get out there you know maybe sell a few more few thousand copies and and you know so a few thousand more people will be able to benefit from this cuz I really thought and still do think that it's work [clears throat] of you know is very valuable for people who are dealing with either you know needing to be fully trustworthy and let other people understand that they are or dealing with um needing to trust someone else and not

[11:43] being sure that they can. So that's kind of what I was attempting to do. That's how I why I wrote the book in the first place. Um the fact that it's sold now over 150,000 copies in across all three editions um was way beyond [laughter] what I what I ever expected but what I think it says is that trust is an is an important topic and an important competency, the capacity or competency to build trust is this important in

[12:22] every part of our life and in particular in the work world. And being a competency, it's learnable. It's not something that oh you're born with, it's not a trait. It's a competency and you can learn it, you can get better at it, you can really become exceptional at building and maintaining trust with other people.

[12:45] >> So I want to dig into this concept of trust and I'll I'll tell you, you know, not really tongue in cheek, my favorite uh um line, I guess, about trust comes from the movie Silverado when one of the characters finds another one lying in the middle of the desert in his long john underwear and he finds out that, you know, he'd been robbed of everything he has and and he said that the the the fellow, Kevin Kline, gives the line, he says, "I'm I'm not quoting it exactly, but I figure you can trust everybody or trust nobody, life kind of works out the same

[13:22] way either way." And and and so, you know, his choice is is to trust people, right, until otherwise, but dig into this idea of trust because I I I I really think one of the challenges we have in in the business world today is where you we use words, but I'm not sure we we mean the same thing with the words cuz we don't seem to really dig into them. So talk talk talk about that if you would.

[13:57] >> Yeah, so that's one of the things that I was trying to do in the book and I've been doing with my clients is helping cuz trust is, you know, it's sort of a it's we use it to cover all kinds of things. And, you know, if I have in my mind that trust is keeping people's confidences, for example. That's one of the you know, one of the things that people often cite as a a definition for them of trust. Um and and you're thinking that trust is um keeping promises that we make to each other. Um so we're happily talking about trust,

[14:34] thinking completely different having completely different ideas of what it means in the world. Um and we're inevitably going to get crossed up around that uh [snorts] at some point. So, being much more explicit. And so, how um how I when I talk about the framework that I use in the book um around trust is that in order to really be able to trust others wisely and or in not only trust, but also maybe make a choice to distrust others, but to do it wisely, it helps to have an understanding of

[15:10] what we mean by trust and how to get there. At least how I found that it works to get there is taking that word and in in my case, how I look at it is I divide it into four sort of assessment domains. I assess that I can trust you in well, the domain of care. Which is to say I can trust that you have my back. That you intend good for me. That your thoughts towards me and feelings towards me are benevolent.

[15:41] >> Mhm.

[15:42] >> Um So, I trust that you care. [clears throat] Um another one is sincerity. I trust that you'll be honest with me. And that when you make decisions and take actions related to me, you you will do so with integrity. That is you'll say what you mean, mean what you say, and act accordingly. So, that's in the sort of domain of sincerity. Um and so I Well, if I trust you in that domain, for example, you you say, you know, this is this is the direction of

[16:18] and my boss and you say this is the direction we're going to go." Um I'm going to take that to the bank. I'm going to work to support that. Unless, of course, you come to me and say, "You know what? I've decided I've got some new input and I've decided to change that." If you do that too many times, I'm going to begin to wonder about other things about you. But um if, on the other hand, you tell me this is the way we're going to go and then um you know, 2 weeks later I find out from somebody else that you told them that's the way we're going to go, then I'm going to be questioning your sincerity. So, a third domain

[16:55] is reliability, which for me is um keeping specific commitments or promises you make. So, if you know, like I promised to show up on your show today, right?

[17:08] >> [laughter]

[17:09] >> Record that you'll record this um and and I'm here. And so, this is this is sort of an indication that at least in this instance, I fulfilled my promise. And when I trust someone around their their reliability, what I'm saying is I trust in the future if you make commitments to me, I can I can trust that you'll actually keep them. Or for some reason, if something comes up that makes it impossible for you to keep that promise, then you'll let me know, hopefully uh

[17:44] with as far in advance as possible. So, we can, you know, adjust. Do something different. So, that's the domain of reliability. And the last domain that I use is is competence. So, that's essentially I trust that you have the knowledge, experience expertise, experience, um capability, all that stuff to do either what you're saying you're going to do or to do what I'm asking you to do. And I'll give you a good example because I had a client today who's kind of in

[18:20] this place with with one of his direct reports who's moved from um an individual contributor level up to being a first-line manager. Um and the person I was working with is trying to support him around that. And we were talking about competence. The So, the guy was a great engineer, fabulous engineer. And his competence was assessed around his in in the domain of engineering around the you know his capacities as an engineer, but now as a manager he's being assessed around a different

[18:57] >> [clears throat]

[18:58] >> competency, which is managing people. And so, the person I was working with is helping them understand and be able to communicate this to his newly newly moved up employee that there's a whole different competence domain that he has to um he has to learn. He's he he

[19:25] >> [laughter]

[19:25] >> it's a new new one to him. So, competence is something in most cases we learn. So, what are our standards for competence in this particular realm or arena? So, those are the four domains and it allows people I find to get much more specific much more quickly. You want to jump in, Josh?

[19:46] >> Yeah. So, um something struck me when in your example about competence uh and and maybe this is this comes you know, from my the work that I do uh I'm wondering how this strikes you. To me, competence is is not just knowing what I know or what I have the experience or knowledge to do, but also knowing where that competence ends and being willing to essentially

[20:21] um um explain that or you know, not in other words, not [clears throat] try to take on faux confidence, but to be confident enough to say, "Here's where my competence ends, and either we need to bring in the specialist or I don't view this as necessarily as being a matter of competence per se that I find especially with um people on the teams that I build who you know, they kind of look at me as as the captain, and there's no reason for all the

[20:56] decisions to be coming to the captain. And I encourage them to say, "Look, you know, you actually have much more of the front-line knowledge experience in dealing with this issue. You will actually make a better decision than I will because you just you've been immersed in the situation." I'm I'm so

[21:17] >> Yeah. So, what one of the things that builds trust in your own competence is when somebody acknowledges that I'm not competent in that that particular aspect of whatever we're talking about here. Um just like you're saying. Or Or I'm I may be competent there, but in fact, what I want to do is build I'm going to support you in building your competence in this. So, I'm going to ask you to work here, do this, pull this together. This is Or I don't have that confidence. This is your area. You You know, you need to step up and do

[21:53] this. Thank you.

[21:55] >> And how how how do you think that impacts the trust that you know, someone who is perhaps more junior has in their senior? Or in the person

[22:08] >> it really I think it does build trust. Now, what what is a problem often is that the junior person is said, you know, he's told, "You need to go You need to do this. I want you to do this." But they're not given any help.

[22:26] >> Mhm.

[22:26] >> And [clears throat] it's clear that they're not competent yet. They're still way down in the learning curve, back in the learning curve.

[22:33] >> Mhm.

[22:33] >> [clears throat]

[22:33] >> And um their leader doesn't give them support, doesn't help them. That actually damages trust pretty quickly. Um but just holding someone accountable for something that they really can't be accountable for yet without a lot of help. Um so, that's again and just in that and see what we're unpacking just in the domain of confidence.

[23:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. Let Let's take a quick break and we'll come back for more.

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[23:51] >> So, you you talked about this idea that trust and building trust is a skill that we can learn. And I I that strikes me well, I mean I agree with it, but it strikes me that a lot of people don't look at trust that way. It kind of they kind of take the attitude I can either trust you or I can't or I'll I'm going to trust you until you show me that you can't you're not to be trusted and then, you know, once you've broken that trust that, you know, that's it. So, I I'm You You talk You talk about this in

[24:28] the book. In particular, you have a chapter on rebuilding trust, but talk if you would about this concept of building trust. It certainly goes counter to you know the movie line that I mentioned a few minutes ago, but I think it's it's it's really important for us to understand you know how to do this even if you know we're predisposed to trust other people. And and I know for me I always find it grating when I get the sense that somebody doesn't trust me when I you know just met them. It's like why why don't you I haven't done anything for

[25:04] you not to trust me. But I just feel and then I have to tell me look different people have a different approach. So how do we how do we build trust? What is the process?

[25:13] >> Well, first I want to just speak to what you just said about different people have a different approach. So when I do workshops with people I'll often have them kind of arrange themselves in a in a line a range if you will but physically have them stand in a line. The people the one end are people who extend trust easily. You know don't have a don't really worry about hang on I'm going to sneeze.

[25:49] >> I see.

[25:50] >> There will be one more.

[25:52] >> [laughter]

[25:53] >> Anyway, so I have people their their propensity to trust is I'm going to just give people trust right away. But there are also a fair number of people who want others to earn their trust.

[26:07] >> Mhm.

[26:08] >> And there so I have them stand at the other end of the line right. And people tend to kind of clump towards those two ends a bit. And it is it's really two different ways that people approach trust and it comes from how I think I think mostly how we were brought up. And kind of we we learn what we learn about trust mostly from our families of origin.

[26:31] >> Mhm.

[26:32] >> And that's what we bring into the into work. Um so it's not like we come to work every day blank slate, you know, can learn. We have to some to some degree we have to unlearn. Um so what I'm kind of talking around and around this a little bit, but I want to point out that the people at the you have to earn my trust end of the spectrum particularly for leaders if I'm a leader and I come to you know I I basically have people reporting to me and and I say, you need to trust me. I

[27:09] want you to trust me. But I'm not going to trust you right away. You have to earn my trust. That doesn't go well. It does not really build trust easily.

[27:20] >> Mhm.

[27:21] >> Uh so that's basically my my uh um word to leaders around that is as a leader you need to go first. You need to extend trust first.

[27:34] >> Mhm.

[27:35] >> Uh so the activity the the question of actually what was your question?

[27:41] >> Oh so yeah so so how do we build trust?

[27:45] >> Oh right.

[27:45] >> Yeah.

[27:46] >> Yeah. So we build trust by behaving in ways that others see as uh trustworthy. All right, so if you if I want you know

[27:58] >> [clears throat]

[27:58] >> we want to build trust you and I. Um I'm going to want to understand as best I can what is important for you, what you see as trustworthy behavior. It's also I want to let you know what's important for me around that idea of trustworthy behavior. Mhm. So again, those four domains of trust um you know so we can I just recently did work with a team and part of it was you know okay we've got the four domains of trust. Now in each domain what is trustworthy behavior on this team? What do we all see as as

[28:34] trustworthy? What do we see as not trustworthy behavior? So then, you know, I can make choices. So if I know what builds trust with you and what actually might damage my your trust in me, I can make my choices around how I show up with you. And it's it's not meant You know, some people would say, "Oh, that's manipulative. You know, you can't just manipulate Kevin into trusting you."

[29:01] >> [laughter]

[29:02] >> In a sense, it's You know, kind of that's the point. I want you to trust me. I want to trust you because if we're working together, we're going to be able to accomplish a whole lot more the two of us working well together because we trust each other than either one of us ever would alone. So that's kind of the reason why we would want want to build trust with each other. So doing it There's a woman named Barbara Brooks Kimmel who started an organization called Trust Across America, Trust Around the World. And

[29:37] she's Her kind of line always is, um, trust is uh trust is an outcome of principled behavior. Which in in in a sense, I mean, are you saying this thing that we have between us that we call trust um, is a kind of a There's There's a physiol- neurophysiology to it. You know, it's partly something that happens in our brains. There is an emotional content uh emotional component to it. Um, there are particular emotions that go with trust

[30:15] and emotions that go with distrust. And um, the emotions that go with trust are emotions that we generally like. Um, so we're kind of drawn to a person that we trust. We and the emotions that come up for us are emotions that we like. Um, the thoughts that come up are yes, um, this person is a person I want to work with. Um, you know, for various reasons. Then I can sort of build out from there. So, there's this trust relationship and now I can build out um,

[30:50] the other parts of our relationship from that.

[30:56] >> W- We We've talk been talking about trust, I think, primarily from kind of a one-on-one perspective. And it it occurs to me that if I'm working in a team environment, um, I may, you know, do or say something to another member of the team. Maybe, you know, I I I want to express some care for you know, toward that individual. And not realizing

[31:33] that how that uh, statement, behavior, whatever it is, is going to impact the other members of the team. And so, while I may be building trust with this individual, I may be destroying it with these others. And I'll I'll give you an example. Um, when I was in the Navy, um, I had a situation where a chief petty officer was put under discipline because it was found out that he was um, giving a young sailor sort of preferred duty days and times, right? And And And the other sailors didn't like that. And then then it came out

[32:09] that he was having an affair with this sailor that he was favoring. So, of course, there was already a tenuous trust relationship between him and the other sailors. And then, of course, when the the affair was uncovered, of course, that that destroys it. And frankly, he got kicked out of the Navy. Um, but I I It seems like there's sort of multi-dynamics going on as we're working to build trust with an individual. How do we deal with with, you know, with those maybe I don't know, group dynamics we could call them?

[32:42] >> Yeah. That's a great question. So, part of it is that trusting what I talk about I I I talk about trusting wisely and also distrusting wisely, by the way, but trusting wisely really includes thinking about how my relationship my relationships with each of the people on the team um how it is now and how I can continue to strengthen it um or at the very least maintain it and if in So, the example you gave, let me just go

[33:18] back to that because um the in that case the the um person who was kind of giving the sailor preferred duties was doing so based on a personal agenda that became that at at first was just kind of like, why is this person doing that? I don't really There's something going on here. And then it became obvious what the personal agenda was. So, if I'm on a team and um I'm wanting to build trust with another team member

[33:54] um if I'm doing so because I have some kind of a personal agenda beyond um building trust with my fellow team members I think that's a again I'm going to need to check in with myself. If that's what's going on, I need to really be careful uh about that and and probably shouldn't be doing that. On the other hand, if I'm trying to build trust new new team member maybe, let's say somebody new on the team. Trying to build trust with that person

[34:30] so that we can I and probably other team members as well um can have good working relationships with this person and trust is a fundamental piece of a good relationship, working relationship. Um it in most cases it's going to be unless I totally do something, um I would just blow it.

[34:56] >> [laughter]

[34:56] >> Um I don't think I'm going to create a sense I'm I'm not going to damage trust with the other team members. Unless there's, you know, I'm I'm really favoring that person. They they obviously They might then there's the like, "Okay, what's the agenda for that?"

[35:11] >> Right.

[35:11] >> So um I don't I I really haven't come across a situation where that isn't an issue has has been an issue. Um a leader, a team leader, can make that an issue. That's, you know, and and um I've seen it in lots of situations in teams where the team leader, for whatever reason, is favoring one or a couple or three. Um it's often because those are the people that that leader hired.

[35:48] They're you know, that's the thing. Those are my kids Those are my guys, you know, those are the people that I brought in here. Um and that is not going to maintain trust or even build it with the other team members. So the leader needs to be careful. Not treat everybody exactly the same, but treat everyone equitably.

[36:13] >> So so and you you you sort of grabbed on to my my follow-on question, and I'll I'll I'll I'll set it up this way. I It It occurs to me that there are quite legitimate reasons why someone but why a leader could be favoring a particular employee. For example, the the the leader may know that, for example, this employee is going through a very difficult personal situation. Um but it's not appropriate for it to be

[36:48] you know, voiced to all the members of the team. And yet, you know, the leader legitimately wants to, you know, give that team member some space to be able to deal with uh, you know, the the the the the the personal problem. And and and yet, you know, is is is maybe duty-bound confidentially, you know, again, to not disclose what's going on, right? Um, and yet we and I I I don't mean this in a political sense, um, but just in a human sense, I think we're under you know, scrutiny these

[37:23] days for people to be treated, you know, equally. And and not that I'm saying they shouldn't be, but um, you know, what what can look like perfectly legitimate right now, but then, you know, a year from now all of a sudden people decide they they sort of, you know, recalibrate what was going on. And all of a sudden, you know, now there's been major, you know, workplace, I don't know, discrimination or something like that. How does, you know, how does that dynamic, where you've you've got sort of almost two opposing needs,

[37:59] you know, the the the the need for a team member to be given some grace, we'll say, and and and and yet, you know, the team to be able to function well together, how do we how do we deal with that situation?

[38:15] >> So, I'm going to give you a couple answers. One is the first one is that if especially as a team leader, if you've done a good job of building trust with the members of the team individually and kind of helping the members of the of team build trust with each other individually, so that there is a strong foundation of trust among the people on this team. Um, then there's going to be a fair amount of uh, leeway. You have a fair amount of leeway.

[38:44] >> Okay.

[38:45] >> Um, people will, you know, the there's they're they're curious. They're wondering what's going on, but you know, they they're going to trust you. So, the first part of that is build trust as much as you can as soon as you can and keep it as strong as you can. Um now, if if you haven't done that, there may be the need to express that, you know, if you if you if you really legitimately need to support one individual in a way that is

[39:21] taking your time and attention. Because what what do people on team want? They want Well, they're they probably want different things, right? Some people want your time and attention as a leader. Some people want you to leave them alone and let them just go do your thing. Um you know, and check in every once in a while and say you're doing great, you know. So, understanding what your team members each want individually from you, what they need from you, and then figuring out from there, okay, where am I going to want to follow that with somebody? If I if I'm spending a lot of time and energy on one person,

[39:57] who are the people that are going to be upset the most about this? And how can I take care of that for them? I don't have to necessarily um deal with and somehow treat everybody the same way. Because everybody doesn't need the same things from me. But those people, those two other people that really um are kind of needing my time and attention during this period of our, you know, team development or whatever it is, or they're new people on the team, or whatever it is, I can probably also afford them a little

[40:32] extra time and attention. So, I need to just be aware about it and and do it. So, it's not like a cookie cutter, everybody gets the same. Um fairness is is not everything is equal. It's fairness is giving each person what they need to [clears throat] the best of your ability. And that's what you know, it's part of what a lot of people assess as being trustworthy.

[41:05] >> I I I will I I will admit I struggle with this concept of fairness uh because it always seems to me that what's fair to one side almost inevitably seems unfair to the other side,

[41:19] >> [laughter]

[41:19] >> right?

[41:20] >> In your case [clears throat] and and that's that's where conversation needs to happen. Just doing it and then getting it and and assuming that people are going to figure it out and if they don't getting pissed off at them about it is not going [laughter] to That's That's not going to work very well.

[41:38] >> Yeah.

[41:39] >> Um but and this kind of brings us to a different um kind of different whole area of trust building which is families and family particularly around families and money um which is an area that I'm certainly you know, drifting into as a result of writing another book. Um but um this notion of fairness that we imagine that's fair if everything's equal is not really the best way to think about

[42:11] >> Yeah.

[42:11] >> what we what what people really Each Each person has their own unique needs. And so if we can set up um a situation such that each person gets what they need Now we're only going to find that out We're not going to If If I just imagine what you need and I'm wrong, that's not going to help. So you and I need to have a conversation about that. What do you What do you really need from me? How [clears throat] will I you know, how will you know that you're getting it? How will I know that you're getting it?

[42:44] >> So I I don't want to I don't want to gloss over um the the um trust within families, but I want interject a question here and then and then and then I want to pick that back up again. So, how do you recommend somebody handle a situation where something happened that I don't know, it I'm not saying it destroyed the trust, but it has we'll say an erosive effect on their trust.

[43:19] And and yet it it wasn't maybe a huge event. It's one of those sort of niggling things, right? That sometimes, you know, capture our attention and there is some tension in the idea of raising it may may do have a bigger negative impact on trust, right? Than than raising it. So, like, you know, maybe the best thing to do is is is drop it. I'm So, again, I'm I'm curious to hear, you know, your thoughts on on on

[43:54] that dynamic cuz I think often time, you know, we we we we think it in a in a sort of binary, trust, no trust, but really it seems to me trust is is is really a continuum and I think it's also, you know, it it it it fluctuates. It's it's maybe, you know, kelp floating on the ocean, right? So, you know, it's it's I think it's a on some way a beautiful concept.

[44:19] >> God, I trust in you implicitly. I have to tell you when somebody says that to me, I think that they're probably probably don't trust me at all.

[44:26] >> [laughter]

[44:27] >> And you probably shouldn't trust them either because I don't really think this thing through.

[44:32] >> Yeah. [snorts]

[44:34] >> [laughter]

[44:34] >> But but this this this situation where, you know, the niggling thing is going on how how how should one be thinking about, you know, handling that that situation?

[44:46] >> So, those niggling things if they're left to kind of you know, kind of just bubble under the surface, they can get a lot worse. They can really become sort of a big thing under the surface, especially you know, so what happens of course is you you you notice something. Okay, this person I I I'm not sure I can trust this about this person. They did this. And then we start looking for we automatically start looking for

[45:22] other examples or other reasons why we shouldn't trust this person or maybe we shouldn't trust this person. So, that little thing could become big. So, if I have an issue with another person, um something they did, um and and I um maybe if I I mean if I honestly it's just a little thing, probably best thing to just let it go. But if I find that I keep it's coming back up and it's getting bigger and suddenly avoiding that person,

[45:56] >> Mhm.

[45:57] >> um or um I'm being short with them or um or or I'm treating them in other ways that my trust in them has gone down, then I really need to do something about it. I think. I mean this is my what I think needs to happen. So, what do I need to do?

[46:20] >> Mhm.

[46:20] >> Well, ideally I want to have a conversation with them about it to get it straightened out. What what's going on here? What why did you understanding why they they made the choice to do what they did. Um and let them know how it struck me. So, in the book, in Book of Trust, um I have uh seven steps, if you will, to take before you even have a conversation. And the last step is deciding whether you want to have a conversation.

[46:51] >> [laughter]

[46:53] >> You've gone through this this process of you know, thinking through um a number of different things related to having that conversation. Um and then making a decision, okay, I do want to have that conversation. I think it's important for me to have that. I think it's important for me and that other person to have that conversation. Now, there's also another beyond that, five steps into the conversation. Which starts with asking the other person if they're willing to talk with me about something that's important. I can if I do it well, I can do so I have that conversation without really ever bringing up the word

[47:29] trust.

[47:31] >> [clears throat]

[47:33] >> And focusing specifically on the behavior. Or I can begin by saying, "Look, you know, you and me and I work together and it's really important that it for us to do good work with each other, that we trust each other really well. And something came up that's kind of you know, been a little bit of a challenge for me around that. Can we talk about that? So that I can understand it better. And then move into the conversation if they're willing.

[48:03] >> Yeah. So, we're we're we're we're actually getting close on time here. So, I I want to take a moment and you mentioned um that um of late your work has been focused on families and financial issues. You You're uh I think you're getting ready to go to press on a on a new book with uh actually the person who uh introduced us, Emily um Bouchard. And uh so Bouchard, okay. I I tend to I tend to lapse into French when something looks like French. So, tell tell us tell us about um this

[48:38] new book um and and and you know, kind of what what is what is next in uh in in this world. Yeah. Well, well, the book is is essentially the it's kind of the a lot of similar and it's structured similarly the book that it's the same framework, um the same definition of trust and kind of how to use that and and so on, but it's focused more on families. So, whereas the in Book of Trust is focused on people in the workplace, that one is focused on people in families, and particularly the most challenging conversations that and most

[49:14] damaging situations that arise in families most of them so often are uh are revolve around money and finances. Um people do things that damage uh completely betray trust with each other and and don't really understand it. Um so, we talk a lot about how you can build trust in families ahead of time in order to have good conversations about money and finances in families. So, I'll say that that's um to a great extent Emily's domain. I

[49:49] mean, she's been working on that for a long time. I've been thinking about bringing the framework and and uh some of the process that I use uh into that domain of families. Um so, when she and I started talking about this a year about a year ago, um it uh seemed like a really good way to do that. And so, we've got a new book called um The Little Book of uh Trust and Money, a Primer for Families, coming out in November. And uh I I think it's going to be really I I'm [clears throat] convinced it's going to

[50:24] be really valuable for anyone who has a family e- from a couple to a great big extended, you know, multi-generational clan. So, um I just wanted to, you know, thank you for allowing me to talk a little bit about that because it's coming out, and it's I think it's going to be well worthwhile. And it's also a fairly thin book. It's not a you know, it's not a big thick book either. It's keeping it thin, readable, practical.

[50:52] >> Yeah. Well, and and as someone who, you know, I have a multi-family office practice, I work as a trustee and a probate administrator. So, I'm dealing with family dynamics all the time and I'm I'm looking forward to reading that book because I think that it will be very useful for me and in you know, in my professional in my profession. So,

[51:14] >> Yeah, looking forward to that coming out for sure.

[51:16] >> Yeah, thank you. I'm glad I think that's So, the primary audience is families, but there's a close secondary audience, which is people like yourself.

[51:24] >> Yeah.

[51:24] >> Um who work with families and so Great.

[51:29] >> Well, Charles, I I cannot thank you enough for talking with me today. I think I'm going to need you to come back cuz there's a lot more I to be explored in this topic. Um it it's just there's you know, layers upon layers upon layers. And in you know, I kind of coming back to where I started the show, which is I think in today's workplace, it is absolutely crucial. Um and it it strikes me, you know, coming out of the military, there is a high level

[52:04] of trust among you know, one's fellow service members. Um I think that you know, the military goes to very um you know, large lengths to to create that because if you have to be on a battlefield, for example, boy, you need to be trusting the person next to you. Um and it's so it's it's really it's really something that uh I think we need to be intentionally consciously building um in in in the business world. So, just any I'll give you kind of like you know, la- last last comments here before I wrap things up. So,

[52:39] >> Yeah, I'm I'm going to You kind of said this you referred to this a little bit earlier, but I want to bring a forward a point that I think is really important. Because I find it a lot. A lot of people are operating under the assumption that trust is like an a switch, an on-off switch. Either you You said it before, either you either I trust you 100% or I don't trust you at all. And there's In fact, trust is dynamic. It operates on a range. I can trust you in certain areas and not others. You know, I mean I I know I I trust my wife

[53:14] in so many ways, but I do not trust her as a brain surgeon.

[53:19] >> [laughter]

[53:19] >> It happens.

[53:20] >> That was not where I thought you were going with that, but yes.

[53:23] >> [laughter]

[53:25] >> She's not a brain surgeon and I would not trust her to operate on. Um so uh um yeah. Trust is is and there's a lot of nuance to it. And so if you think about it as an on-off switch, you're going to miss all of that nuance. And building trust is going to be a little more challenging and maintaining it. Um and rebuilding it if necessary is going to be more challenging. So thinking about it as this um multi-level nuanced dynamic experience and expression in our lives is um

[54:01] is is valuable.

[54:03] >> [clears throat]

[54:03] >> Well, thank you very much for having me on. It was a It's been a great conversation. I'd be happy to

[54:07] >> You're you're welcome. I You know, you just opened up a whole new thread of thoughts for me, which is a you know, as we head into the sort of AI era, there's a whole trust issue there. So again, I'm going to have to have you back on again um perhaps soon cuz I'd love to dig into that with you. It's such a current topic right now and and it's you know, the I think there you know, all the subtlety is is being you know, lost in in uh you know, in in what goes on unfortunately as is often the case. So So I'm going to do a quick wrap up and then we'll we'll talk offline for a

[54:42] minute. So folks, if you look right down below you in in the right down below the screen the show notes, um you'll see uh Charles' contact information. You'll also see a link uh to Amazon where you can buy uh Charles' book, The Thin Book of Trust. It it is an affiliate link uh you know, so complete disclosure, I think I get a penny if you use the affiliate link or something like that. But but in any event, um I I cannot I cannot encourage you enough to get a copy of of Charles's book. It you can

[55:17] see it's very I I read it in one sitting. It was It was absorbing It is is I think the best way to describe it. And especially if you are struggling with some trust issues in your workplace, either as a leader or as someone who's not a leader, but maybe you're having trust issues with, you know, with your boss or something, you will find a really a wealth of information on how to how to effectively uh deal with, you know, the challenges that have been put before you. So, um you you know, uh I I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm going to stop

[55:53] raving about Charles's book now. [laughter] Um but it but it's been a long time. Not raving. It's been a long It It can only has been a long time since I have read a business book that uh I I I thought was as as incisive and and and so useful as The Thin Book of Trust. And And so, I, you know, unqualifiedly recommend it to you. So, real quickly, schedule of shows. Mondays, these are all Pacific Time, by the way. Mondays, 10:00 a.m., Trust and Estates Weekly. Tuesdays, 10:00 a.m.,

[56:28] Business Lessons from the Military. Wednesdays, like today, 10:00 a.m., People Making Money. And then every other Thursday at 5:00 p.m., join me at Jigger's Displace. We'll have a cocktail and a schmooze, and we will talk about all kinds of topics unrelated to finances, like books and movies and relationships and ideas and all those things that really I would argue make make life worth living. Finances are great, but they're a tool for living our lives. So, uh Charles, one last time, thank you so much for being my guest today. Just love the conversation. And that just leaves

[57:05] me to sign off as I always do, reminding you that Marie darling, you are my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.