The WAY to WOW Shows
Resolving Impossible Conflict
February 24, 2025
Automatically generated from YouTube captions; names and wording may contain errors.

[0:00] are you and where are you going what do you [Music] want hello and welcome to trust and Estates weekly I'm your host Kevin bemel and we're here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about everything related to Estate Planning and probate and Trust Administration both from the standpoint

[0:36] of your own financial affairs and also for professionals like my guest and me who help people uh deal with this area of our lives so today I am beyond excited to have my guest um and I believe me I'm gonna blow her name at some point during this the show but um my my guest is Dana Garnett and Dana is uh well at the at the moment she is in London England it's it's always a treat when I have a guest who's who's uh not

[1:12] in the colonies as as the British might say um and and she's uh she's actually getting toward the the end of her days it's 6 PM uh in in in the UK right now but um Dana I I I I can't thank you enough for uh taking this this time um and and and being with us here on trust and Estates weekly thank you so much thank you Kevin uh I'm excited as well to be here and um yes it's going on 6 pm here as as we were just chatting it's 1800 hours uh in the UK

[1:47] um given both our International your military and international relationship right with time exactly but yeah it's it's a pleasure to be here so so Dan and we um we were we were talking about this before we went live um if if if you would so our our topic for today is resolving impossible conflict and the fact of the matter is in the both in the estate planning and in the administration phase of of settling an estate um it it is so frequent for um

[2:26] conflict to arise and in fact I was talking to an attorney friend of mine uh last week who's he's been doing Estate Planning and now he's expanding into Administration as well and he was saying he just is surprised by how often conflict arises in spite of there being a good estate plan um but but so before we get into your topic though um tell us a little bit about your background how did you get into this you know this space of of resolving uh conflict

[3:01] especially very you know deep conflict absolutely um could appreciate the question um uh well I've been a mediator a credentialed mediator if you will uh for the State of Texas for the last 10 years now and uh I tell people I'm actually on purpose not an attorney and I'm on purpose not a therapist however both are very important and have their roles and um uh people that come to me and say oh I don't want to get an attorney I'll tell them you need legal advice you know if you're if you're

[3:36] involved in serious conflict right particularly if it's um a breakup a marriage breakup a business breakup an issue within a trust what have you um and um so it you need that legal advice to make sound legal and financial decisions for your future without regret um the therapy side sometimes people need a therapist to dive into childhood experiences or specific relationship issues um that mediators traditionally don't like we don't go that direction as a mediator we're guiding a process um to

[4:12] help people come to their own conclusions about things um and in the mediator space um you know we I tend to have when I'm mediating court order cases for example uh I have maybe four eight 12 hours with people I've never met and I'll may never see them again and so um the skill set is very focused to get to the heart of things quickly and try to help them settle things um I will say that a challenge I have found with mediation over the last 10 years is that oftentimes you you get to a settlement agreement but settlement

[4:47] isn't real resolution and um sadly um as as mediators we'll see people that we know how to maybe help them with some communication skills right and to help prevent things blowing up down the road after they leave mediation unfortunately mediation does not set things up for that it's not a training ground for other PE for the parties right um and it tends to also come very late in the process of of conflict resolution especially in the legal terms um uh so what I just started started doing this several years ago um is working with

[5:25] people to help coach them if you will through conflict situations U maybe they're going into mediation they're dealing with a trust situation they're in a business situation um I turns out a lot of people kept coming to me I worked with the family business adviser for a while and he was sending me some clients when he was on a second book tour and people would say I'm the only one that sees there a problem no one gets this but me nobody wants to come to the table and work this out and the the beautiful news is you don't need everybody around the table to resolve um even serious complex generational conflict um it

[6:00] might take two or more to Tango but it only takes one person to shift the Dynamics of the situation because when people are fighting and one person learns a new way there's not much else to hit up against for the other people so what starts to happen is this the situation starts to shift and neutralize and by knowing how to show up differently um uh it will eventually create a dial that other people may not even know you've gotten help with some conflict resolution skills um but you can in fact

[6:36] shift those Dynamics I know this because you know how did I get to this profession um I went through a really bad uh contested um divorce um now 11 years ago and um didn't really know how to handle it and came out of it wanting to do mediation better because I had felt um quite bullied by the process it was an evaluative process or different styles of mediation and long story short

[7:11] um I was talking to somebody about how I just would love to have people not suffer the way I did because I'd met people ahead of me in divorce and they would give me advice on on how to get through it and every sad I'm sorry sadly every story ended with you know he's still a bastard or the kids are still wrecked or we can't do we can't go to a funeral or a wedding or or a graduation without it all blowing up you know and I thought oh is this what I have to look forward to you know so I I um just in talking to some people discovered that you don't have to be an

[7:46] attorney to become a mediator and someone suggested well just become a mediator and do it better you know so I studied I got a master's degree in alternative dispute resolution and within um uh just a few weeks of of that program I began to see I just I felt like kind of a number on a on a Case yeah it's you know um number of attorneys were teaching these courses that were reformed litigators if you will you know you know custody attorney and um and told their stories you know um and

[8:23] within during this process it was a very cathartic experience you know um 22 term papers later uh you write a lot of yourself right anyway was cathartic and I got to a place I I I got into a a course called the Neuroscience of conflict and I was blown away by how simple it is how we are wired in such a simple way that we able to cut through political religious generational um you know any kind of conflict that might be uh environmental if you will or cultural um cut through

[9:00] to things really quickly and it was at that point I was in like within 18 months of my own divorce decree I was really over my divorce and it didn't it wasn't because I sat around the table with my you know now ex spouse and said let's work this out you let's let's let's get along better for the kids because I had h i I came to terms with my children even because I was doing things during the divorce that just tried to make their dad look bad which was completely unfair to them and and it didn't serve anything you know and so when I came to this realization I looked back and realized

[9:35] had I known then what I know now um you know we would not have gone through $270,000 in legal fees and $30,000 in therapy and um I was really committing I was really contributing to my own misery and just didn't know it and when that fork in the road I decided you know I could keep spinning in it or I can go a different direction and so I started showing up differently in the relationship with the father of my children and um actually fairly soon after that we started getting along well

[10:12] and since then for years now we've gone on family vacations and we parent our you know our children well and our daughters have felt the relief of not having to worry about Mom and Dad getting together and all of that blowing up so um and and one last thing I'll add uh before we continue is what I had to learn as a mediator is that um uh I was co-editing sometimes and other mediators would say to me on a break let's say during a mediation you know I think the dad's lying or the

[10:48] mother's treating the kids horribly um and i' say we we had to be very careful we can't make that about how we feel and I I came to where it's it's a it's a skill had to learn but I figured out how to be present and engaged and even the most you know blowing up conflict even with the attorneys going at each other and yet emotionally detached so I don't get wrapped up in it because once we make the situation especially as mediators about how we feel we've lost objectivity so I took

[11:23] that all my mediator ethics about confidentiality and all my mediator ethics about biases and and and implicit biases things like that and I apply that to the conflict strategy work I do with most often individuals um who want to resolve things um and I have an online program I can talk about later but anyway that may have been a bit of a a long opening but did that explain yeah so so let's if if you would apply now um what you do specifically to

[12:02] um the the the trust um and Estates realm right so um and let me kind of throw out a couple of scenarios not that you have to use these but I think anyone involved in in this industry will be familiar with these one is the uh um I'm going to use a case that I've got you've got the longtime partner of the decedent who they never got married here in California we have something called registered domestic Partners they never became rdps right and now the decedent

[12:40] has died and the long-term partner is basically out of luck uh there's no there was you know there's no will so so that person is not provided for um and and they are let's say at best resentful right so that that's one kind of conflict you get right um and and and by you know as as a someone who administrates trust and probates I can hear it I you know if I were to put myself in that person's position I would feel like I don't know didn't my partner

[13:16] care enough about me to recognize me um or you know after after all I did for this person you know all those things all that stuff comes up right any unfinished business comes up so that's one and here's another common one right um it's so common now for people to you know get divorced and remarried right so you have children from the first marriage get married again you have children from the second marriage okay second marriage oftentimes you know more about how to raise kids right you like

[13:51] your kids better they're younger right they're cuter whatever right they they haven't done their adult Rebellion um and and so in your estate plan you know the tendency is to treat your new kids better especially since you're still with that you know the the spouse of those children right um and and of course the original kids are wait a minute you're only like this because you messed up with us right so the these are a couple of the common you know conflicts that that happen in you know one in the administration process another in the estate planning process

[14:27] so I'm curious what are some of the things that you see and then maybe you know talk about how you how you approach them sure um well the first uh situation you described where the partner of the decedent is feeling resentful because they weren't provided for and I and I'm I I don't know what the circumstances were whether it's by law they couldn't be or if it was a choice by the decedent and they didn't do something I don't know in my particular case I don't know you know the the the deedon

[15:03] died in testate he maybe did that somewhat on purpose right there are people I hate to say it but there are people who you know they Revel in dying without an estate plan and throwing all of their heirs into turmoil because maybe they did you know they felt like they all they wanted was money from them while they were alive um or it could have been you know the person over you know just didn't get to it they overlooked it they never thought they were going to die as young as they did right right right yeah and the the the reason I I inquire

[15:40] initially about what you know what was the uh administrative Arrangement you know whatever because it it it in my role it's the first thing it's just to stay curious the whole time I make no assumptions or make no judgments around anybody's choices or um uh that they've made about their will or anybody's choices about how they feel about being the one left um that said uh it's it is a relationship it's a relational conflict um and even in the situation where someone has passed on and um the

[16:17] person remaining is is feeling resentful or has can't quite uh come to terms with the situation as it is it's entirely possible and I've actually had I've had the has happened a number of times where um someone has passed and you can get clarity very quickly on why perhaps they did what they did or come to terms with from within yourself to um be okay with it and it's I had a situation for example um it's a family business and the father passed and the

[16:55] daughter was made um president and and the um the the sibling was upset his spouse was more upset than he was and they cut off their children to the rest of the family and this this went on for like 10 years and um and even though in in the in the the will things were provided for as equally as possible somebody had to be made president of the company right and so um very just just in working with this this woman I was she was able to get clarity very quickly

[17:31] around not only the situation with her sibling and and show up differently in conversations there that over the next several months helped to melt that that situation and uh allow the families to come back together but she she had some issues or resentments if you will about her dad uh who was no longer there but was able to work through that um just by getting to the heart of some of the deepest triggers that come up when we think about things that have happened with respect to people that we have relationships with and being able to

[18:08] clear those quickly um and and therefore uh get to a resolution that's that I refer to real resolution a lot not just a resolution like yeah okay I'm not really over it but okay I'll just move on people say just let it go you can't let things go unless you really process it through um but it's so in that circumstance um it is possible just to be on your own and then and be able to to to get some clarity and get to some closure if you will um around that situation and and and it may also

[18:43] involve um uh I often this is why I think it's so important people have legal counsel because some of the times they get they're feeling resentful just because they're not clear on some legal aspect and um and there is often you know comes up that there's a need for acceptance perhaps around there just isn't anything else that can be done you know but to say hey look there can't be there's nothing else you can do that can be done just forget about it you know that people don't we don't respond that way that you know or you don't respond well to that so that was the first does

[19:18] that help answer the first well yeah so so let me let me kind of pull the thread on that a little bit if I may sure so um when you say the the person has to or the the the issue needs to be you know worked through are you saying it needs to be worked through by the um surviving partner or are we talking about it needs to be worked through by you know the people involved in the in the actual administration of the estate so who is the who is the party that that needs to or who are the parties that need to work at through and and then as as kind of a

[19:56] corollary question what if the parties that need to work it through what if some of them are not open to working it through right okay no ex excellent um the people I tend to work with are ones that want the help okay one way or the other they they they are um they would like to have a different result and they would like to be you know be finished with some situation and and get some again closure and be able to move on with their lives right that said it's not always the person that's the um the

[20:32] party if you will in in in the in the state situation it sometimes is the administrator it's the trustee it's it's it's the lawyer um I've even work with CPAs and financial advisers where they know they have a client that's very upset about something and no matter what they say they can't get their client to to make significant legal and financial decisions that are they're blocked if you will because they're so worked up about a certain situation you know what do I do about that um if their client is wanting to get some help around clearing that conflict with within themselves or around the situation great you know but

[21:07] if they're not you know people don't like to be told you need to get help and work this out you know so what I have done in the past um I work with that um service provider if you will whether it's the the the trustee or the attorney or the CPA and Coach them on how to speak to this person so that they can um approach it differently and therefore helps this person see a different perspective um without without being told what to do this is a very good

[21:44] point before I can share or something I just thought to share I'm on purpose not an advisor people need advice Legal Financial you know so we need advice in life by from sucha experts but um the kind of the kind of approach I'm talking about is giving somebody an opportunity to work again work things through for themselves not being told what they should be doing or should be feeling or should be letting go um so you know in in these cases where I'm coaching or

[22:19] working with the trustee let's say um or the estate attorney um helping them use literally communicating in a very specific way um that that resonates differently you know we're all neurologically wired and we get triggered by things and the things that send our amydala you know like this and you know fight flight freeze um there are ways to there are ways to communicate that that helps to lower that and and and and reduce that that reaction um the the catch is we're not taught how this how to do this in school

[22:54] we're not taught how to do this in inba programs you know no in life no um there if you go study and you learn it yay great but not everybody has the opportunity to do that one of the reasons why I made it a passionate commitment you know to help other people resolve life's challenges a lot more easily you know than than um than what we think so um so did that help answer the question yeah so you know it's it's it's it's interesting just to kind of wrap this one scenario up a little bit you know there's there's a number of

[23:29] heirs to the estate and of course they want their money right and they look at this individual as an impediment because he's living in the house that the deedon uh lived in and the fact of the matter is in order to sell the house he he can't be there right and so you know in talking it over with kind of the lead air I said to her um I I I I think that the first step to resolving the situation is acknowledging um just the the sort of basic um human emotion that's going on for this

[24:06] individual um and and um acknowledging that uh he had an important place in the decedent's life and and and and and you know doing that and I said from there I think that while as you know if I'm nominated to be the administrator I can't give him a fin fincial interests to which he's not entitled there are other ways that he can be involved in the wrapping up of the deedon life so one of the things I

[24:41] ran by on them was maybe he's put in charge of memorializing the deedan Facebook page and and and and and and given you know control over that um you know control over this person who is you know very important in his life for you know evidently decades um okay there's no you know Financial remuneration that comes with that but there is a sense of satisfaction and to the extent that he wants to work toward resolving this in his life that could be an an Avenue for

[25:16] doing that right the respon of course the Air's response was no just evct him you know it's like oh now yeah I was gonna say that's that that that's a great that that's actually um yeah the fact to acknowledge someone the need for acknowledgement and also participation or contribution to to the um um the plans or or the legacy of the dece the Legacy the the remembrance Etc um The Challenge when they say no um you

[25:51] know this is It's I guess and I I mean not this is where I would you know want to be a little more curious about the circumstances but ideally um you hope that Nobody ends up suing each other over something right right um and uh you know the the one that's saying no not going to do it tough um perhaps that means it falls on you you know to to go to the other person and say right right you I can I I'm just going to make this up as I go I just I'm going to just on the Fly here you know I

[26:26] can only appreciate how how frustrating and um perhaps hurtful and um disappointed you may be feeling because the um you know the family is not acknowledging you or seems Seems like they may not be acknowledging you for your role in this person's life and the significance she played in their life um and and if and if it's something that's just recently happened you know and I can only imagine you may still be in a State of Shock and you know and you

[27:01] have a need to grieve and this is you know on top of needing to grieve this this um Discord with the family I can only imagine um the um you know the frustration and and the in the the pain this is causing you um and at that moment whenever you do reach out to somebody like that it's a great time to stop and just say would that be right and pause because we never want to presume and notice the words I was using are I'm wondering if maybe possibly you know it's not like you know I bet you're feeling this because of this nobody we

[27:39] nobody knows exactly how we feel right so to be told I know how you feel no you don't and then you know now now we've got a problem you know we've set up a problem so being um curious uh and and possibly this maybe you're feeling this because of this is that right would that be fair and let them have a moment to respond and you're you're going to get one of three things usually one yeah that's exactly what's going on right or two no not at all it's it's you know

[28:14] what it is is and now you have new information to work with right or it's or it's three it's a mix well yes and no you know and but but at least you've given them by by by by by communicating with somebody that way it's an it's an um underlying way of showing respect you know we all have these Universal needs to be to belong for respect to be seen for who we are in this situation this person probably I'm guessing has a need to be seen for who they are as this long-term partner and

[28:52] um and so let allow them to respond then you can then from there you can continue and by the way always thank them for whatever they've said just thank you for letting me know that I I appreciate that at the same time I'm wondering if the family whoever the people are in the family that are the pushing back um um at the same time uh it would seem the family is you know for for um for what it's worth uh sticking to the legal bounds of

[29:31] the of the situation um which which is their legal right to whether or not they're doing it graciously you know can we cannot be controlled because we cannot control how other people respond to things um uh so at the same time they are um you know going about it very administratively and um I you know I wonder you know know it you know is is there any Clarity I can provide around any any questions you may have around that and shift it to the thing you know

[30:09] the the legal the legal situation you know the administrative situation um and not and and start to shift it from the people involved to the thing right and if in depending on what you get and again allow them to actually there is one thing I really hung up on or you know no I'm good I just wish they would be less you know obstinate or whatever yeah um but but you being there um expressing uh communication that actually makes them feel heard or understood or at least appreciated in some way that that's gold I mean that

[30:47] that's for them that just that that helps it helps to it helps to um ease their you know their pain and and they you know it allows them to it it allows them to um get that closure you know or come to an place of acceptance yes more easily does that help yeah yeah and and you know it's it's it's interesting because um I I don't remember if I've I've mentioned this to you in one of our prior conversations so prior to this iteration of my professional life I was

[31:22] a chaplain in the Navy uh for 16 years all told and what I find is the the um the skills that I honed you know as a Chaplain oftentimes come into play as as a uh probate administrator because the situations in which I get involved it almost always there's some kind of conflict um and and and so um if if I want to both handle my duties efficiently um

[31:58] and but also avoid um like you say litigation Etc so there's a whole emotional component to the work that I do that I have to be very mindful of um if if in the end I want to be successful so uh you know and and one of the things and and and this I can tell you that probably at least 50% of the counseling I did as as a Chaplain really came down to the person was grieving over

[32:33] something and I had to coach them to let themselves grieve right and and this I think this is one of the problems in our contemporary Society is this attitude of no you got to move on well I don't think human beings we're not geared to just moving on there there is a process of coming to terms with gaining some understanding about and then seeing seeing that the future holds something uh of of interest of value to us and that is the grieving process and the grieving process is

[33:09] necessary I I think and not just when somebody in our life dies it can happen when there's um a a loss of a career it can happen when there's um the you know a relationship breaks up so grieving is a process of dealing with loss not solely with with death right and and right the death of a person may not only trigger the loss of that person physically but there could be other losses the losses of uh you know a a a spouse who who dies not only is the

[33:45] spouse gone but the future of a life together is gone as well that's a separate loss from the person themselves right morning morning morning the loss of what was to be exactly right walking our children down the aisle you know when they got married or you know taking our CH our grandchildren on vacations whatever whatever the things are that people have in their minds that they were looking forward to um those are not going to be there anymore right and so right what I

[34:22] find is I know for in in in in my life I find that that's that's absolutely the case and those are in some ways the loss of the expectations of the future are harder to deal with than the physical loss of a person yeah yeah and of happens a lot in divorce you know you there's there's no one attorney once said there's no body to mourn in a divorce it's relationship exactly although I think a lot of divorce people would prefer that but you don't get it yeah I know yeah sorry true no no no it's it's true um

[35:00] but that's the thing you know to be able to move on quickly regardless of what the I mean not to be little a loss but regardless of what the loss is um it you know the the quickest way to it is to is to address specific things that like things that we remember that we let's see you're going about your life in your everyday life and then something happens that triggers you and you're reminded of the person you've lost or you're reminded of the person you're in conflict with or you the same thing here it come here we go again um too often if

[35:36] we try to just generally you know we talk about it and we and we we seek advice from friends and or or or advisors even about how do I deal with this how do I you know get past this um you know what it takes is actually getting down to a very specific incident um and it just takes one you know it's like an emotional trigger literally like last Thursday when my brother texted me to say you know he wasn't going to sign the agreement you know to to to finalize the trust documents whatever you know whatever the situation is that specific

[36:12] thing we have what we what we do is process that meaning what does that make us feel and why are we feeling that more importantly what's the emotional need attached to it is it uh progress is it uh Financial Security is it communication is is it cooperation what is it that is is missing what's the unmet need when that trigger happened and when we when we apply it that way we actually it's like it's a relief to our system it's like I feel this way because I need this right you know and now the

[36:50] next step is to is to um there's there's a quick process of connecting heart and brain literally um such that we can access a higher intelligence this is all neuroscience-based but we get an Insight it's like it's it's it's fine to to it's okay to you know figure out what's the need but we don't stop there what action do we take on this basis what do I need to do maybe I need more information maybe I need to uh book another appointment with so and so maybe what is the action we need to take to re to to to get past this and so

[37:26] it's processing those very specific um triggers and and what's really great is you may have I'll I always start with people when I'm working with them what's the one thing that that could be resolved in your life the one thing and inevitably they go oh I know what that is say someone oh God you know it's usually something or someone right um that that they want could be done um but you know it's like so when you when I ask that question it's like what's that one thing and then follow up with so give me an

[38:03] example of something that you know when you think of that person you know you're going along just great something comes up and you know you go from feeling great to negative um and they're like oh I've got hundreds which which example do you want right because we're talking a lifelong a lifelong situation you know um and the cool thing is it just takes one because our neurop pathways are just ingrained right with experience after experience after experience trigger after trigger after trigger and it just takes one to clear it and it's like a domino effect

[38:39] all these neural Pathways start to get cleared and you and you literally are rewriting a neural path neural Pathways in the moment such that later on when something else comes up that could have triggered you like it did before um it doesn't mean you've lost your memory about it you remember remember the past but you don't get triggered anymore so you so you can you can you function from a different place and that's how you can show up at weddings and funerals and graduations um with everybody there that you may have been you know in deep conflict with before um and everything's

[39:16] fine you know um uh it's it's it's so it's a very specific process um I'm sorry let me interject here because and and and and this this is a question I've kind of had in the back of my mind basically since we started the show so let's take a situation where um you know not only is the conflict Dee rooted but it's it's unresolved and it's it's it's based I mean it's it's not sort of a fictional

[39:52] conflict so there was a profound for example um um what's the word I'm looking for um betrayal at the heart of the conflict okay um for for example um let's let's take a a situation where you know a parent uh physically abused a child right um and now the you know maybe the it it's it's so bizarre how these happen but you you know that the parent may leave that child out of the

[40:29] estate plan out of their own sense of guilt having known what they did to the child and and and the child now having been in essence I think from their perspective you know doubly betrayed um is is enormously resentful the parent is now gone they're going to um uh they're going to express that resentment to the other heirs probably their siblings right now you know their

[41:05] siblings may have had nothing to do with it although their siblings could also have facilitated it that that happens as well right but there there's you know there's a real problem there right and and it's you know the person who caused the problem now is gone um and and yet you know this person is somehow supposed to you know get along with everybody show up at family events um after having you know experienced this you know real double betrayal so to my mind there is such a

[41:44] moral injury there to to the person you know I would I would wonder that they could um you know assuming for the for the sake of the the discussion the person is a very moral person they hold moral rectitude as as a central pillar to their life um they're essentially on on a certain level being asked to violate their core values or it would seem so right so what what does one do about a

[42:21] situation like that when you say mean the person who was violated being asked to violate their core values right yes by by sort of saying oh well you know my father is dead so you know I've got it's time for me to move on I mean but I I see I see you know and and the fact that the the father is in essence I'm just using a father could be a mother as well but my father you know you know in addition to abusing me now

[42:56] has evidently dis inherited me right yeah the yeah right and and um knowing siblings as I do they're they're gonna be happy to share in the you know disinherited siblings share right why why would they not it's more money for them right um right so yeah I I'm this actually this reminds me of a I had a client a few years back um uh who had been abused by her dad and a little different circumstance that where she um she was approaching uh her mid-30s

[43:32] and was postponing having a starting a family because um because she was still in touch with her father and around her dad and she didn't want to bring a child into the world and have her that child be around him and um and she had watched him abuse her mother and her siblings as well and she was very resentful and um when she came to me she was trying to um what she wanted to do is have a conversation with him and finally give him a piece of of her mind if you will they kind of just really open up and just say you you know all the things

[44:08] you've done to me um and and so she uh to try to get to try to get over this she had tried this to try to get over this so she could feel free to start her family and the the the shortcut to this is um what she came to discover is that and this is through honestly um you know just a couple of times working with her and and and processing through some things as I described earlier um she felt like she had a need for Justice and um and she had a need for um him to apologize you know to uh for to

[44:45] atone for what he did and um uh at the end of the day when she and and what what we did I help I helped her as I do my clients construct a conversation you do you do the processing not just to help process to get through things but it gives you a literally vocabulary to work with to have that conversation and so she was prepared and when she came back she said you know he he didn't want to go into it you know but but she but she started out by saying I want to resolve this I mean I mean I have some things I need to to

[45:21] get clear with you um and are you open to that and this you know at first she's like I don't ask him if I'm if he's open to that after what he's done to me I said go with the process because what that it if he says yes great if he says no Then you can say okay well then and then give give her the the alternatives to that you know without getting into too much detail but um for the sake of time but she came out of it just having approached him and he didn't want to talk about it um she discovered that it was a perceived need she had for justice

[45:58] and there was an underlying need for just simple communication just the fact that she had spoken this to him that she wanted to to you know have an apology from him or just asking for that it gave her a sense of of satisfaction and and and um surp surprised her she got more closure out of that it was like she she had been living in fear of approaching him about this all this time so in the case where the the father may be deceased um as I said earlier you can process around things and that person

[46:33] may be already in the next realm but you can still get clarity uh around it um in the case where um the the siblings you or she's been cut out of the will um basically that I mean that's that's tough that's that's a hard one to to deal with um and we talked earlier about mourning the loss of something it doesn't always have to be a person it's mning the loss of the right she may feel right to that part of part of the state and um and and and

[47:08] it's I'll be honest Kevin in those situations this is where I mean if there is an option for a legal uh challenge to to the will I don't I don't know to the estate I I don't know if there is an option um what where I can also be a help is to guide that person on how to talk to their attorney you know to communicate with their attorney so it doesn't get just doesn't become this expensive option right that how how to focus the conversation and how to um communicate with the attorney and the siblings and

[47:46] not pleading and convincing I need to be part of this but approaching them in a way that g it gives it the best possible chance of getting what you feel you know it it is not owed you but what you really genuinely feel is is what you deserve um it's never 100% sure but approaching conflict um from a from a perspective of you know what you're feeling and needing and guessing what the other people are feeling and needing in the circumstances and making it about the thing but versus the people um it's

[48:22] going to give you the best possible chance of real resolution and at the end of the day if you've tried your best and you have turned over every Rock and every stone and gotten every advisor legal or financial or otherwise to help you and it just hasn't you know you've done all you can that in itself it it may take a longer to mourn that process but you've you've done that and at the end of the day um you know however we CH what we choose to do with that you know is so important you know it's when you have actually processed through as much as you can that's when letting go is a

[48:59] lot easier it's a lot easier agreed and and and and I think and again I think this is another underappreciated aspect of of conflict resolution is um there is not always Justice in this world right um right and and I know again from my own life um that um having done my best to attain Justice even if in the end I don't

[49:34] receive it um is is a much more satisfactory result than you know capitulation right right right yeah right but it's a it's a skilled it takes a very skilled practitioner to help someone pursue Justice in a way that doesn't in essence cause a great deal of self-destruction you know even as it purportedly uh you know walks them on the route to acceptance of of a

[50:11] situation at least in right yeah right so that's yeah sorry that that acceptance I mean getting to that place of acceptance is key and they you know they may have had a need for freedom from the situation relief I use the word closure as well but there's also a need for power in our world and sometimes after we've turned over every stone and've done everything we can um we have that power within ourselves to free ourselves from the circum from that situation because we've done everything we can that need for acceptance can be met you

[50:46] know uh and that need for freedom and and to move on you know we can choose again to kind of stay stuck and spin in it or realize that I mean sadly unresolved conflict um eats away at our health you know it ages us it burn you know turning under the radar ages us quickly and so um that's another piece that I that's a big piece I bring in when I'm working with my clients because it's understanding you know some people just want to hang on to be right in circumstances where they're you know they you know they've got a lot of wealth and they can pay to be right you

[51:23] know pay the attorneys to fight to be right but at the same time do you do you understand what that's doing to your you know your health and and your well-being and your immune system you know and and um uh so you know putting yourself first I often tell people yes it we we put ourselves in other people's shoes to help resolve situations but it's you know it's not all about touchy feely because people get sometimes like I'm not going to do that however putting yourself in someone else's shoes or or working through something you know to even to let go of

[51:58] something for yourself at the end of the day is self-preservation right you know putting putting your putting yourselves your your own health first or putting yourself first by putting yourself in other people's shoes and reaching out to them to see what's going on with them they are um you know you're actually doing yourself a favor you know yeah yeah for sure so for sure well you know what we're we're we're coming up on not quite an hour and we had said we would go for about 45 minutes and and you know the um

[52:34] I mean this this is a subject that you know we could go deeper and deeper and deeper uh and and and and uncover I think more and more um good good information good thoughts for people to have so um you know if if if you'll promise me that you'll come on the show again I'll let you go this time still I'd be happy to absolutely oh yeah it's it's there's yeah so many different directions to go to do a deep dive in but I have just I was I'm so glad that we had to meet because we met through the um uh independent trustee Alliance

[53:12] right uh we were on a call together um and uh I wanted to just if I may a shout out to the ITA um because because they they bring professionals like us together uh but and you may you may already know there's the annual conference coming up um in in in in Dallas Texas and um I just the the dates are May 14 to 16 um and so any you know fiduciaries um State Attorneys trustees whomever you know whatever role you may have um in the role of trusts and States

[53:48] um it's a great organization to to be a part of and um and again yeah it brought us together so I'm grateful for that yeah and and you know what I I I it hadn't occurred to me until you know you you voiced it that um thank you for for mentioning that the ita's conference is coming up in May Uh Kevin button was was I'm sorry wrong Kevin I have so many Kevin in my life um I'm going up on Kevin Quinn Quinn thank you Kevin Quinn was on the show um I think maybe about two months ago um me we about the the

[54:23] ITA and and and how it came into being and what it's all about um and and uh I've met a number of great people uh through the organization I'm hoping I can attend uh the the the conference uh there's there's you know as I as I told Kevin um and margarit there are some things going on in my life that may may prude that may require my being here in uh in in California no worries yeah well hopefully yeah you could and understand if you can't I'll actually I'm I'll be speaking on the topic of the

[55:00] transformative trustee how just one how it only takes one person to resolve family Dynamics and preserve wealth well that that's a great topic um and uh you know if I can't if I can't get to the conference uh I I I'm I think all the sessions are recorded So I think they do yes yeah so so hopefully I'll be able to if nothing else see see the recording of it but uh you know again this is I think people in um our

[55:36] industry tend to think of conflict resolution as being sort of an ancillary part of what we do and and I would argue it is a core part of of what we do um fortunate are is the fiduciary the trustee the lawyer the accountant who has a practice free from conflict between beneficiaries heirs Etc I have not had one case where where that where that was a situation um it yeah you know where where people when people are

[56:12] involved conflict is is either happening or Brewing um it's inevitable yeah when when humans get together there's going to be conflict you know EXA exactly so I think it's this is a this should be a IAL topic for anyone who um is is involved in this profession and and maybe more specifically anyone who really wants to be successful and and and I use the word success I don't I don't mean just financially successful I mean successful in the in the in the broadest meaning of that term um

[56:48] whatever happens in the estate planning and administration process that is really just a a was St off in people's lives and and mo in most cases those lives are going to go on for decades afterwards and so we as professionals can either be um we can either help those future decades be better or we can help them you know potentially be worse so yeah that's that get maybe to close out that's that point I made earlier about you can get to settlement in a mediation situation

[57:23] where you're kind of forced to work things out but nobody wants be forced to work something out right um instead it's you know there's the alternative is real resolution where you can really work it through and it doesn't have to take years to to um to get that to happen you know um one of the things I did through from the pandemic I took a lot of the one-on-one and workshop work I had done with with organizations and turned it into an online program it's called resolving family and business conflict and I've had uh trustees and lawyers and uh also you business owners U who've come to me with their issues uh to go through the program and it actually has

[57:59] helped them tremendously not just only in and how to serve their clients more effectively uh when it comes to conflict um but uh it's actually it can be quite transformative for themselves as well because when we learn when we uplevel our our conflict resolution skills um we uplevel our communication skills and our problem resolving skills and our creative skills and that you know that has this knock on effect you know just life is not going to keep is not going to stop throwing us challenges my my big mission my big you know mediator Mantra or mission in life is to help people you

[58:35] know um to to deal with those challenges more easily you know it's happiness is not getting to a place where everything's okay because that's never the case um you know happiness there's always something or somebody right um no happiness is knowing that knowing that whatever life throws you you can handle it you know and it's it's it's an upleveling of those skills so that you can you can be more resilient and and um and live a longer and healthier Life as a result absolutely absolutely so um for you know for those of you who would like to get in touch with Dana um I I will put her I'll put your con um contact

[59:12] information I was gonna say conflict information contact UM in the show notes um so that'll all be there and we'll ALS if if if if you want to give me a link to your uh training program I can put that in the show notes as well so that people who would who would like to check that out they'll be able to um because I think that that's um that may be you know a good way for people to start you know what what you what you identified is you know the leveling up of our skills you know that's something I think we can all use yeah well that's great and yeah and I was just gonna say I I I

[59:49] pretty much work from virtually anywhere that's why I'm in London actually because I'm visiting my daughter I've missed been missing her a lot so I spent a couple of months here um just uh to be around her if you will um but I I delighted that right um but I was delighted this could work out um you know our live from London and Beverly Hills there you go exactly right it's been it's been fun absolutely so um so Dana first of all thank you very much for coming on the show today I really appreciate it I'm going to have you hang TI I'm going to do a little wrap up here and then we can talk offline for a

[60:24] minute if if you don't mind so so folks you know again um you will not find anyone better than Dana at helping you to resolve impossible conflict that that her her entire life is is dedicated to that and and I think today's show uh showed you the level of skill that that Dana has and and and and that's that's to the good because uh you know as as as as she mentioned uh a number of times this is just part of learning to

[61:00] deal with life if you want happiness and satisfaction in life it's a skill that that that we all have to develop so I I you know I Shameless plug as you know because I can I you know my guests will never say this about themselves but but I certainly will you know thank you very gracious and and uh and and and she will help you get through whatever it is that you're going through so uh I I thank you very much for joining us today I'm not going to even ask you if you got anything good out of the show you you had to have or

[61:35] you you were asleep when you were watching the show uh and especially to our live viewers there I I I see there's a number of you there um you know always great to know that that you're out there um checking out the show I appreciate deeply um you're joining us and uh you know I I just you know tell your friends about uh about the show if if you would and not so much for my benefit but for their benefit a show like this U where we're really talking about a core skill not just for trust in estate trust in

[62:11] Estates but but for for Life uh could could really help them out so would you know would appreciate you sort of passing this along uh real quickly tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. uh tomorrow Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific time is my show business lessons from the military and my topic is what is my topic oh my okay so I'm gonna be talking about the business lessons you can learn from privateers okay so those of you who know

[62:47] anything about seagoing times privateers were sort of like official Pirates hired by countries um and there I think some some quite fascinating business lessons we can use um based on how they operated and then on Wednesday at 10: am uh is my is our monthly economic Echoes I know that was supposed to be last week I got stuck in court all day and I wasn't able to broadcast so I I had to reschedule it for Thursday of this week uh I'm sorry Wednesday of this week at uh 10: a.m. Pacific time and then on Thursday at

[63:27] 5m Pacific time is my show jigger's place where we sit back and have a cocktail and talk about all the nonbusiness aspects of life and this this uh Thursday I'm going to be talking about the pleasures in life and and I'm going to use I'm going to introduce you to the resource I use to um think about that and and and decide what are some of my Pleasures for those of you uh who know um a book called A year in provance written by Peter Ma so um Peter ma wrote

[64:05] another book called acquired tastes and it's it's a marvelous marvelous book and and so we're actually gonna sit back and have uh one of U um Peter Ma's favorite Libations uh and and talk about his thoughts on U all the things that make life worth living so five 5m Thursday at jigger's place please join me and then a week from today we'll be back for the next edition of trust and Estates weekly so Dana One Last Time thank you so much for joining me especially all the way from from England London I'm I'm super

[64:45] jealous badly want to go there haven't been yet so um and signing off as I always do Marie darling you are my bell you know you are