The WAY to WOW Shows
Estate Planning that Protects a Special Needs Child
June 15, 2026
Automatically generated from YouTube captions; names and wording may contain errors.

[0:02] Who are you? And [music] where are you going? What do you want?

[0:18] >> Hello and welcome to Trust & Estates Weekly. I'm your host Kevin Bemel and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and probate administration. Um both from the standpoint of professionals like myself and my guest Sadi, who I'll introduce in just a moment, who do this for a living, but also for those of you who, you know, you got appointed as the executor of your parents, you know, will or or you're the trustee of their trust and now this is not what you do, but you're in this role and you've got to figure it out. So

[0:54] hopefully these shows will give you some information that will help you and allow you to speak more cogently to your advisers. And so that's a good note to on which to introduce my guest Sadi McLaughlin. Uh Sadi was on my show, I think about I'm going to say about a year, year and a half ago. Um and I wanted to get her back [clears throat] because she she she addressed a really crucial crucial aspect of estate planning. Uh and that is when someone

[1:30] has a special needs child or a special needs individual. Really doesn't even have to be a child per se, right? And so Sadi, thank you so much for joining me again here on Trust & Estates Weekly.

[1:45] >> Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here again.

[1:48] >> Yeah. So for folks who didn't see you the first time you were on the show, why don't you give us just at least a little bit of your background so people can understand how you came to know this area of of estate planning so well.

[2:04] >> Sure. So, I um I kind of Well, I started my legal career in some random ways, and I I landed in estate planning um several years ago. And then I had a child um at the beginning of the pandemic, actually April of 2020 he was born. And surprise to us, he was born with a rare genetic syndrome that affected kind of many systems in his body, so we ended up having um a lot of medical interventions that were necessary. Um so, I ended up staying home with him

[2:40] for a long time and really being primary caregiver. I learned, you know, how to nurse, how to schedule all of his appointments and do the follow-up and deal with the insurance and talk to the doctors and all of that kind of stuff that comes along with being a caregiver. And then um once he, you know, after a couple years he was pretty medically stable and then he started school at a special education school that's local to me here in Claremont. And um that gave me kind of the capacity, the space to think about working again. And so, when I did decide to go back um out on my own, I opened up my own firm uh

[3:16] little over 2 years ago now, I knew that I wanted to serve the special needs community because I am a member of it. I see how underserved the population is. I see the importance of having the proper planning in place. And I And I went through the transition of me being primary caregiver to transitioning to my husband being primary caregiver cuz he now is home with the kids most of the time. Um so, I saw how much it took to actually get the stuff that lives inside of my

[3:52] head out and to another person. And in my case, the other person was an active participant in our child's life the whole time. So, he he was aware of everything, but he also he didn't he wasn't in it every single day all day every day. So, there was a lot that I guess like I didn't know that he didn't know. He didn't know that he didn't know because he just wasn't doing it all day. So, that's that's kind of the way I approach um estate planning with my clients who have an individual special needs some sort of disability is that I really want them to think

[4:28] practically. What would happen to like uh what what needs to happen in order to have on board a new caregiver basically is is kind of the approach that I like to take.

[4:41] >> Right. And so, and I want to delve into that, but before we do, um talk to us a little bit. What is it I I think we hear this term all the time, special needs uh person, special needs child. And and I'm I'm not sure that a lot of people for someone who does have a special needs child, okay, they know, they're in it, right? But for people who aren't, especially for professionals who maybe aren't as aware of this, kind of help us understand what that is, what it's about, why it's why it's important that this be

[5:18] addressed um I don't know, correctly, well, whatever term you would

[5:24] >> [clears throat] [snorts]

[5:25] >> Yeah, so I think um there's kind of two aspects to this. One side is um if somebody is on government assistance. So, if you're receiving we're in California, so if you're receiving Medi-Cal, other states Medicaid, um or if you are receiving SSI. People tend to get very confused on what they're receiving from Social Security. Some is SSI, some is SSDI. It can be very confusing. The day the check comes in the mail is a way to determine what you actually receive, but we are When we're talking about special needs trust, we're specifically talking about SSI, Medicaid, and other benefits

[6:01] that are asset-based, asset or income-based. Um so, you have to be below a certain level of assets or below an income level in order to receive those benefits. So, those are the benefits that we address with a special needs trust. And what that means is that if an individual will just I'll talk for myself. So, if my son is now an adult and he's receiving SSI and Medi-Cal, and I die, and I just transfer money to him, I give, you know, he inherits my estate, his benefits will be affected because he will now have money. He will have this

[6:37] asset, whatever assets I transfer to him. A special needs trust can avoid um or can prevent that inheritance from affecting his benefits by keeping the assets in trust and having someone else in charge of the finances, and making it so that there are no automatic distributions to that individual. That way, social security, our government entities, see that as not accountable resource for the individual. So, that therefore

[7:12] protects their benefits. That's That's That's kind of the legal side of things that we're talking about is really wanting to protect the benefits, make sure that we can improve this individual's quality of life, while still maintaining these essential benefits. Cuz sometimes, if you have high medical needs, those Medi-Cal, like uh losing Medi-Cal, could mean completely diminishing your estate within full of months. Or 1 month, depending on you. So,

[7:41] >> [clears throat]

[7:41] >> um so it can be a really serious a serious impact if they somehow inherit money. I mean, that could be inheriting from an aunt or an uncle or grandparent who has really good intentions saying, you know, I know this individual is not going to be able to work. I want to provide for them. And then now you've, you know, affected their government assistance.

[8:03] >> Right.

[8:03] >> Um, so that's that's kind of the big side of the special needs trust. We want to improve their quality of life while maintaining government assistance if they qualify and if they need it. Um, the other side is actually like what kind of care do they need? What kind of ongoing support do they need from other people? So, as a caretaker, I kind of alluded to the fact that I played nurse, I was a chauffeur, I was a physical therapist, an occupational therapist. You know, I I did all of these things for my child in order to replace me, you would have to

[8:39] hire somebody to drive them around. You would have to hire someone to cook, to clean, to bathe, to dress, to you the list goes on and on and on, right? Someone to manage all the medical appointments, someone whatever. You get the idea, like a ton of different people play that that would have to come in and fill those roles. So, that's the other side is kind of like practically speaking, what would a transition to another caregiver look like? And and how can we support this family to make that transition as smooth

[9:14] as possible?

[9:16] >> Right. It It sounds to me and and and please correct me if I'm wrong, the the protection of benefits side is actually the much easier the much easier of the two, right? You set up a special needs trust, maybe you caution relatives, hey, you know, while I can appreciate you want to help, you know, my child out financially, we got to make sure it's done in the right way. I know I I have I have um someone that I know who their child has um a a a disease and the medications, if

[9:53] they had to pay for them outright, would cost something like $30 to $50,000 a month. Right? So, it's you know, some of these and some of these treatments are extraordinarily expensive, but in the end, we can quantify all of that and we can, you know, make arrangements. Um it's it's really the other side that that I think sounds so much more complicated when there's all of these uh roles and needs that that that need to you know, that need to be brought into play. So, I know you you kind of

[10:28] said, well, you know, kind of etc. You get it, but but expand on that for us. You know, so that people can really comprehend the breadth of what can be necessary in order for, you know, a child, it could even be an adult child, I suppose, at that at that point, right? To have some, you know, some semblance of uh you know, a decent life.

[10:55] >> Yeah, and I don't want to diminish the actual planning part because the planning part is difficult. Um I think that the administration is really hard. There's a a book um by Kevin Urbach and Michelle Fuller that's like this thick for people who are administering special needs trusts. So, the administration is very technical and challenging. Um however, that said, I do think you it's it's kind of an easier thing to learn because there are books for it. There are professionals who do it, right? Whereas this other side, there's no book that says, "This

[11:31] is the book of my child. This is what needs to happen." That's That's what we have to put together. We have to create that. So, so that includes like the things that I think about are past therapies or medications or other interventions that have worked, as well as those that haven't worked, because we don't want to retry something. Um We want to know the actual medical history, of course. The doctors that they've seen, the doctors that they see now, kind of all of that kind of information. As well as um the individual's likes, their dislikes, their social

[12:06] involvement. Um whether the parents and the individual are Or not whether, I should say what the parents, as well as the individual, see for themselves long-term, right? So, um there's there's two You know, we want to look at it from two perspectives. One from the caregiver's perspective and one from the individual's. If the individual is capable of providing that type of information, then of course that is our priority. We want to support them. That's the ultimate goal. So, if they can tell us what they

[12:41] want, then we want to document that, so that the successor caregiver uh What What is the word I'm trying to think of? Respects that and honors that, I guess, is what I'm Yeah, honors it. So, that they actually follow through with our intentions. Um And So, yeah, so we want to look at all of that, the social side, the um educational side, potentially, the uh working side, the family side, you know, all of these different things that are part of our lives just inherently, that

[13:17] that now with a successor caregiver, they need to be kind of conscious of that. So, when we look at the role of who would be a successor trustee, so the person managing the individual's assets for them, that is generally probably going to be a professional in my opinion. I think that's the best way to do it because, like I said, there's this thick book for California special needs trust administration that you have to be familiar with. Um you can reference it and use it as a reference tool, but of course it's going to be a lot of work for an individual

[13:52] and then you you risk uh for Sorry, for non-professional person to

[13:57] >> Right.

[13:57] >> serve as trustee. Um and then you risk potentially affecting the person's um benefits. So, we want to avoid that. So, that can be generally I think a professional is is gold standard. And then um for the other side, the caregiver, we want someone who's already actively involved in their life if possible. Somebody who is not going to be uprooting them and moving them across the country. Um you know, we want to we want to sustain the individual's lifestyle as well as their quality of life cuz especially depending on the

[14:33] type of diagnosis, it [clears throat] could be really challenging to move, right? I mean, we're talking about finding all the new set of doctors. We're talking about the impact to the person themselves if they have very set routines. Um if they navigate the community already, but it would be really challenging that for them to learn how to navigate a new community. So, there's a lot of of different considerations to look [snorts] at in on that side of the planning.

[15:03] >> Yeah. I'm actually going through this with one of my clients right now who's they're going to be moving from one state to another. And one of the things we're I don't handle the caregiving side. Um the the parents, my clients, the adults, you know, do that for their child. Um but one of the things that we're finding most complicated is making sure that they have the kind of insurance coverage, you know, in their new location

[15:34] >> [laughter]

[15:34] >> that will give them a you know, it's not what I shouldn't call insurance coverage, health plan in their new location that will give them the kind of resources and abilities that they had where they're at. And it's it's it's it's proving to be a very, very difficult issue to find even a reasonably good solution. So, and and and and but I I wanted to and echo what what you were saying. Um, I know for my practice,

[16:09] I don't handle the what I call the client care side of things because I don't have the kind of expertise to do that. So, I'll handle the administration and financial side because that's that's what I know how to do. Um, but you know, and and I am the successor trustee on some special needs trust. Um, but I can imagine that at the point where I would succeed as the trustee, oops, now all this other side of things needs to be put in place, right? And so,

[16:46] I'm going to have to find that individual or those individuals to do that. And [clears throat] it it could be, I think, a daunting task. Um, and and So, what are your thoughts about, you know, an individual who's the caregiver versus, you know, multiple people who may be handle different aspects? You know, kind of peel that onion for us.

[17:13] >> [clears throat]

[17:13] >> I, you know, I think it's it's most likely, depending on the needs of the person, but most likely it's going to be multiple people we're talking about. So, there's there's the caregiver I mean, if they need bathing support cooking, cleaning, you know, we're might be talking about somebody who's living in with them, potentially. Or they might have round-the-clock support. Or they might have 12 hours a day and some you know, somebody with some and someone is there when they wake up, that type of thing. Um it just depends

[17:49] on the type of support they need, but some sort of in-home care, most likely, depending on, you know, what they need help with. Um if they're staying in the home is the other thing, cuz then the other option are different different levels of support in different types of um living facilities, group homes, or nursing care facilities, depending. Um as well as So, then we also like there's organizations that are care managers or individuals that are care managers. There's a company called National Care Advisors who does um a lot of

[18:24] I've actually hired them myself to do a benefits analysis, for example. So, they they'll talk to you about what you know, medical history what you're currently receiving, and then they'll come back with a complete benefits analysis to make sure that you're taking advantage of all of the the opportunities out there, government assistance opportunities. They will also serve as a care manager, so they have nurse care managers on staff. So, care management is I'm going to say that I'm not I'm not a care manager, so I can't say everything that they do, but they're basically managing the care of the individual,

[18:59] right? So, they're they're dealing with insurance, they're dealing with the doctors, um they're dealing with the ongoing needs of that person. Um so, that's like the care management side. There are services for transportation to medical appointments. So that's another kind of thing that we'd be considering is is how are we going to transport somebody to their their appointments or to their social engagements or their civic engagements all of that kind of stuff. I'm trying to think what other types of things. I mean nowadays, you know, we have we have grocery delivery. We have

[19:36] Amazon unfortunately maybe for some people, but you know, we have all of we have all of this kind of ease of getting things that we need. So it makes it kind of simplifies that side when we're talking about long-term care or long-term care needs of somebody because we have it's pretty easy for us to get them groceries when they needed. It's pretty easy for us to get whatever household goods they need. Um, but yeah, the the people to fill those roles can be challenging and I think a good place to start is a care manager

[20:11] because they are doing this all the time and so they would have really good handle on um, community resources.

[20:22] >> Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and talk some more.

[20:25] >> Great.

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[21:12] >> So, one of the aspects of um of um working with, dealing with uh people who have special needs. And And again, this this falls I think into the category of how a lot of us don't understand is um I'll I'll just give you an example. There's a a young couple in the community where I live. Um and you know, they they were children and then they grew up. Um and you know, they got married, right? And I think I like it

[21:49] until that happened, it was always kind of in my head I think that well, no, that that's not what, you know, people In this case, they have Down syndrome. And I thought, "No, they don't do that." Right? [laughter] But But of course, I mean, why wouldn't they if, you know, if they wanted to, right? And so, how I may be throwing you a bit of a curveball here, but how do we prevent our own I'll call them misconceptions or lack of understanding. How do we prevent that from impeding

[22:25] you know, doing the best job possible for, you know, helping an individual with with special needs?

[22:35] >> Yeah, I I I get that. Um there are a lot of kind of old ways of thinking that still infiltrate our minds, right? And um I think the way that society is now is we are trying to do more integration and acceptance, and I think that's still a very much a work in progress. I think, you know, my son goes to a school that is half it used to be two separate schools, they're now combined and one side is all special education and the other side is all traditional general education. They do

[23:12] so much intermingling of each other, like my son goes to their classes, they do assemblies together, they you know, they have all of this uh group activities that just puts them all in the same room together, but that is so unusual. Most kids growing up are not around other people, especially not a bunch of other people who are different than them. You know, they're not seeing people in wheelchairs, seeing people with walkers, seeing people with talkers, like a little AAC device. But the kids at my son's school are seeing that all day every day. You know, and

[23:48] that's just amazing. I think it's I think it's fantastic and I wish that all schools were like that. They're not, of course, but um all that's to say is [clears throat] we all work to [laughter] kind of get out of our own way, get out of our own heads. Um I think the biggest thing is to listen to the individuals themselves. They my son is uh non-speaking, he uses an AAC device to communicate, he uses gestures, he uses pulling my hand and throwing it at something. He communicates with me very clearly,

[24:23] right, without words out of his mouth. Um and and so there, you know, regardless of whether

[24:33] >> [clears throat]

[24:33] >> they're communicating with us by speaking and having a conversation or some other way, we can get information from these people with by um and listen to them. We need to listen to them, whether they're talking or not. Um so I think that's the biggest thing is really just prioritizing the individual themselves and really thinking about it from their perspective and um as a member of our society they should be treated as a member a full member of our society. So if they have sexual desires or if they have

[25:08] relationship desires or if they have a desire to vote or desire to participate in some other way in our community, they should be doing that and we should be supporting them to do that. Um maybe not supporting them in the sexual connection but you get [laughter] the idea. If they want to date, right? Um but yeah, so we want to support them doing what they want to do. Um and I think really the first step is just listening. I think that's the biggest thing and really just taking away our preconceived notions, our expectations and and really putting the individual first and assume competence

[25:45] and act, you know, and act accordingly.

[25:49] >> I again, such an interesting point because I you know, I've been to seminars and trainings on dealing with the things that is stressed most often is the conserve is is the conservator needs to be communicating with the conservatee to understand what the conservatee wants. That that's that it in the end that is sort of the key uh point is it's it's you know, one shouldn't one shouldn't be if you will running roughshod over the conservatee, right?

[26:26] Um but there's there's a kind of a presumption there that I I suppose that because at one time the conservatee was running, you know, his or her own life. So you know, they kind of know, right? And although they may not be able to handle everything now, which is why they're in a conservatorship, they still have agency on some level. And I I'm I'm not sure that I I I would say I've never heard this issue of agency brought up in any of the seminars or trainings that I've

[27:01] attended dealing with special needs. Although honestly, there's been very few of of those trainings to begin with. But I I I think you bring out such an important point that the these are they're they're human beings, right? And and

[27:16] >> Of course.

[27:17] >> they they have um they have dreams desires, etc. And it's incumbent on those of us charged with looking after their well-being to do our best to understand them.

[27:31] >> Yeah. Yeah, and I think um that has even kind of um shown itself in the conservatorship process, right? Because you can you can limit um what cuz with a conservatorship you're basically taking away the individual's rights to make those decisions for themselves. So, um you can limit what you're taking away. You can say it's just for financial management and they still have full agency of everything else. Or you can limit it so that they can still vote. Like I I have um several clients who want the individual really

[28:07] feels drawn, compelled, and you know, it's their civic duty to vote. And so that is expressly left out of their conservatorship agreement. Um so that they [clears throat] still have that right to do that. So, I think that's that's kind of um being more What's the right word? It's uh more more accepted I think in the in our community, you know, the working the service community of the special needs community um is that we have to listen to the individual first and we have to respect their their wishes

[28:43] because like you said, they are a human being and they are a member of our society, and of our community, and and we should respect them.

[28:52] >> And what are you seeing from the legal side in terms of perhaps, you know, codifying in a trust um limitations on um I'm going to the trustee's authority if you maybe to, you know, to handle things [clears throat] in the individual's [snorts] life. Are are you seeing, for example, um special needs trust where they're saying, "These, you know, specific aspects of the individual's life remain in the individual's control. They're they're not to be uh you know, um taken

[29:28] over, if you will, by the trustee."

[29:31] >> Right. You know, I actually haven't seen that. That's an interesting question, though. What I typically see more of is this is So, with a special needs trust, the way that you avoid um it impacting benefits is making it purely discretionary. So, the trustee um has full discretion whether to make a distribution or whether not to make a distribution. So, usually what I see in there is more guidance of what to support. So, we want to put in like um if they have activities that they want to support, or if they uh you know, it's

[30:06] like oftentimes they are members of some organization, or maybe they volunteer, or you know, that kind of stuff. I see more of that, I think, than saying don't take over this aspect of their life. Um because really with a special needs trust, we're purely talking financial Mhm. Um with a trustee aspect. So, it's really it's really like how how do you want these funds to be used to support the individual, which usually means like I want them to travel. I want them to be

[30:41] able to buy gifts for their family members. I want them to be able to um go get an education, learn a new language, whatever whatever it is, you know, those types of things. Whatever's important to you, we want to make sure that the trustee has that guidance so that they know that that's that's something that they should be spending money on. That's something that they should say yes to, even though it's not a you must, it's not you shall, it's a this is what I want you to do kind of It's gui- It's guidance. It's not Yeah.

[31:15] >> Right.

[31:16] >> Yeah.

[31:16] >> So, what what I'm not I guess what I'm hearing is we're not really seeing on the conservatorship side, there is a pretty I think clear distinction between conservatorship of the estate and conservatorship of the person. And although a conservator could be handling both, you know, in in I think in many cases it is actually really two different people who are handling those aspects. So, we're not I guess we're not really seeing a system like that developing on the special needs side of of of the equation or maybe at least not yet.

[31:54] >> Yeah, I think not built into the trust. So, I think maybe that's where the letter of intent comes in and that's So, a letter of intent basically goes through all of the other stuff, the non-financial. So, that's more for the guardian or which would be the comparable to a conservator of the person. Um so, there the the letter of intent is also guidance. It's It's You can't [snorts] enforce it really, but it it provides all of that supplemental information to support um whoever it is that is

[32:29] managing day-to-day care, supporting them with their social engagements, supporting them with their living situation, all of you know, all of the non-financial um aspect. So, I think that might be more comparable to what you're what you're talking about. So, we have the special needs trust side, which is this is the assets available to the individual. This is what we want it to be used for. And then we have the letter of intent side that says, this is kind of everything else, social, recreational

[33:04] um work, education, kind of all of the other things to support their their life, right?

[33:12] >> Right. Okay. Let's take another break and we'll come back and and and and follow up on this. Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration. Featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Rabalais, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most

[33:47] practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time searching. So, so let's let's spend some time um talking about the letter of intent because it you and I were talking about this a little bit before the show. This it seems like this is really what um guides the practical side of helping someone with special needs. So,

[34:20] >> Mhm.

[34:20] >> talk first about, you know, what is this, you know, letter of intent? What needs to be in it? You know, how is it uh who draws it up? How is it drawn up? Um you know, give us as as as you know full a picture of it as we can so we can really understand what it's all about.

[34:40] >> Sure. So, um with the letter of intent, it's basically kind of a book of the person, right? It's like um we want to talk about the medical side of thing. If there's a a complex medical history, we want to document that. So, that is past medical interventions, therapy therapies currently, and therapies in the past. We want to have the historical stuff and the current stuff. So, this is something that you're going to be updating ideally yearly. Hopefully, um because all of this changes, especially um when

[35:16] the individual is younger, of course they're growing, they're developing, that everything is changing rapidly. Um but like medications change, doctors change, therapies change, all of that kind of stuff. Want to make sure that it's kept up-to-date. So, this is very much a living document that needs to be maintained over time. So, um there's the medical side, there's the individual side, and this is really like if you if the individual is capable of expressing their hopes, their dreams, their needs, their wants, all of that, then we want that. We want that to be included. So,

[35:52] that could be anything from like um I want I I want to go to college, or I want to work, or um I hope [clears throat] that I get married someday, or you know, all of these kinds of different things that most of us may take for granted unfortunately, and we don't expect that necessarily of an individual with a disability. Um but they may, you know, living as a part of member of our society, they may have those hopes and dreams for themselves, and we want to support them. Um so, that's that's something we want to document is

[36:27] anything that they um they want for themselves. Um, and then also the as the caregiver often times it's we're talking about a parent. So, as um the parent, what their hopes and dreams are for this individual. Like maybe like I really don't want them to end up in some sort of nursing home. Like that's kind of the most common thing that I hear is I don't want them to be in a facility, right? Um at sometimes that's the best option that comes up. But, if they can live with support on their own independently, then that's going to be, you know, that would

[37:02] be my hope for my son is if he can I he's only six, so we don't know what's going to happen. But, if he could live independently, great. I want to support him living independently so he can maintain his independence, right? We want we want to support, I guess, as much independence as feasible. Um so like housing desires, again, education, again, working, again, relationship, um civic involvement, um volunteering in the community, participating in, you know, whatever types of activities that they're into. Just I

[37:37] mean, just like a typically developing child. Like if I were to die, I have two sons. If I were to die and my other son um I would say I want him to be involved in sports. I was involved in sports. I really like passionate about it. I want you to be involved in sports. I hope you go to college. I hope that you could buy a house one day. These are the things that I want to provide assistance for and these are the things that I would want my guardian of him to know about so that they can appropriately encourage him that like I would. Um, so that's kind of like the caregiver's view or vision. Um

[38:13] there's a there's a company or website called Danny's Plan and they do a really great job of this. They um basic basically it's a letter of intent that's online that you can build yourself. You can download the PDFs, you can share it with your medical team, you can share you know, just certain aspects, you can share certain aspects with the teaching teachers um or educational staff. Um and it's really cool the way they have it set up because each thing they have like a bio. So, you want to know kind of like about the individual, like what makes this person this person, right? Um so, they have a bio section,

[38:50] they have a important family members section, which is also something any letter of intent should have is like who is important to this individual, who is important to me as a caregiver to maintain a relationship with this individual, um my son and um so, it just kind of goes through all of that. It has the medication list, it has the uh doctors list, it has whatever other support personnel are in the person's life. And um I don't know, Danny's plan is really cool just cuz it's very interactive and because we are um

[39:25] the plan is going to grow with our family and with the person, the individual, then we want to make sure that it's updated. So, they make it very simple. Otherwise, like for me, I provide a letter of intent for my clients and I encourage them to not be overwhelmed because if you think about like a whole life history of somebody, that's a lot to document. So, I'm like what I do is I send out an email and I say this is this is the whole thing, tackle section one this month or this week, however you whatever you're comfortable with. Tackle section two. And then every year on their birthday or

[40:00] every year when you do your taxes or every year on your birthday, whatever date you want to choose, revisit it and just like look it through. It's not going to take as long as you revisit it, but you just make updates as needed. And um just keep it up to date because if it's out of date, it doesn't really do much good. It does It does some good, but it doesn't do as much good as it should.

[40:21] >> Right. And um so I could imagine, you know, taking over at you know, as as the trustee of a special needs trust um and wanting to see that letter of intent so that because I it sounds to me like a lot of the information in it would not be in in you know, in a special needs trust, right? And so um how would I find this letter? Um because it probably I'm probably you

[40:57] know, taking over at the point where the person who wrote it is is likely to be gone, right? Um so So, what can people do? What can professionals do to help their clients with this issue? What can people do who are you know, successors trustees to a special needs trust? What can they do to find such a thing?

[41:19] >> I mean, I advise my clients whether they're they have an child with special needs or not because we do a similar process for typically developing children cuz again, we want to support them in different ways. So, whether it's a letter to your guardian or whether it's a letter of intent for your um family member with the disability um I advise them to put a copy with their trust. Like put all of that stuff. Some people like to write like love letters, you know, to their kids. That's another thing. Put it with your trust. Just put it all together. Um if you don't have it there, then I don't

[41:55] know where it would be, right? Like we're going through This is the prob- This is the problem with estate planning in general is um people like to hide things.

[42:05] >> [laughter]

[42:05] >> They don't They don't want it to be, you know, that for some reason they don't want it to be easily found. Like how many people store their wills in their in their safe deposit box. Um that makes it very challenging to access.

[42:18] >> Right.

[42:19] >> Um so like for example, my estate plan is on my bookshelf at home.

[42:25] >> Mhm.

[42:26] >> I don't Yes, it's private. Who's going to go into my house and read a trust? Like nobody cares. Um I want [clears throat] it to be found. Like that's the biggest thing is it needs to be easily accessible to whoever comes in and needs to find stuff. Um so yeah, I think the common places are either with the trust, in a filing cabinet, on their computer,

[42:51] >> Right.

[42:51] >> [laughter]

[42:52] >> which has its own set of challenges. I'm pretty sure with Danny's plan you can have like a successor person named so that they automatically have access. Um yeah, but yeah, that I mean that's a that's a huge problem with any aspect of the estate plan. I mean especially now that we receive so much electronically and we're not getting paper mail so much.

[43:14] >> Mhm.

[43:14] >> Um it's really hard for a successor to come in and even find assets. I'm sure you experience that all the time. Like it's like I'm not just opening mail because there's no mail. So how do I know what you have?

[43:27] >> Exactly. Exactly. Um

[43:29] >> Yeah.

[43:30] >> Oh, and I I I I I I had a follow-up question and and then and and now I um it dropped out of mind uh cuz you made me laugh.

[43:37] >> [laughter]

[43:39] >> Sorry.

[43:40] >> No, no, no, it's it's it's it's it's it's all good. Um uh uh okay. Well, anyway, I'll move on. It it it'll probably come to me, you know, 3:00 in the morning.

[43:51] >> [laughter]

[43:51] >> Oh, yeah. That happens.

[43:53] >> um uh when um when we're um when we're dealing with this situation, um I know, you know, talking to other estate planning attorneys, one of the big hurdles they have is people don't want to do their estate plan. In some cases, it's almost a cultural thing. If I do an estate plan, I'm sort of, you know,

[44:28] putting a hex on myself. That's not how they would say it. That's just my words. Um

[44:34] >> Right.

[44:35] >> What kind of, um I don't know, reluctance do you find among [snorts] people who probably really need to do this kind of planning? And how do you help them work through that reluctance?

[44:58] >> [snorts]

[44:58] >> Yeah. Well, I think, especially with the special needs community, there's two big hurdles. The one hurdle is financial. We are already financially strapped because we have a bunch of extra finances as a parent or caregiver to an individual with a disability. Um that's a big hurdle. It's almost tax season, you're getting a tax return. Great time, great use of your tax return. Um just throwing that out there. Um but otherwise, I mean, it's hard to get through the financial hurdle other than saying like emphasizing how much

[45:35] more expensive it will be by not planning. And sure you're spending money today, but you will be saving tens of thousands of dollars, as well as potentially preserving your your kids' benefits if they're on government assistance, or if they need to qualify for government assistance once they turn 18, having that special needs trust set up, um allows them to qualify for government assistance. So, you know, it's that's a hard one for people to kind of grapple with is like spending a few thousand dollars now versus saving tens of thousands of

[46:12] dollars after I die. You know, it's a if you don't prioritize it now, I can't force that on you, but that's the argument, right? Is it's probate alone is 3 to 5% maybe of the gross value of your estate.

[46:28] >> Um you have a million-dollar home, you're looking at 30 to 50 thousand dollars in probate costs. So, you're spending way less than that. A tenth of that maybe.

[46:41] >> Um so that's one one way to point and count the importance. The other thing the other hurdle I see all the time is just um having like being completely overwhelmed with thinking about who would care for my child. Um I had this. Like I will be 100% transparent. I did not update my estate plan until my child was four. So,

[47:05] >> [laughter]

[47:06] >> don't do what I did. Do what I tell you to do, but that's because I you know, my son was very medically complex and I was like absolutely nobody in my life could do this. Just don't die. Don't get sick. That was my plan.

[47:22] >> [laughter]

[47:22] >> Right? That's a lot of our plans and I'm I am I am one of them, right? I'm I am that person. So, like I I feel you. All right? Like I can relate to these struggles 100%. I still like we have our guardianship nominated. It would be it's my sister-in-law and she has another child and she'd be taking on two more kids. You know, is it a great solution? I don't know, but is it the best solution we have? Yes. And is it better than my family duking it out in court? Yes. Is it

[47:58] better than my kids ending up somewhere that I would hate for them to be? 100%. So, we have to get over like the What is that phrase? The enemy of the good is perfect or I don't know what it is.

[48:10] >> Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[48:13] >> Something like that. Basically, like it's not going to be a perfect plan. But also, ideally, we're not dying tomorrow. So, if we put in a plan today, let's just start. We're just going to start. We don't need it to be perfect. We will be addressing this and readdressing this and reassessing the situation over and over and over again throughout our lifetimes because, again, estate planning, whether you have a child with special needs or not, is not a one-and-done thing. You don't do it once and then forget about it for 20 years cuz it is not going to work for you, most likely. So, we want to be revisiting our decisions all the time. As my child grows and gets older and I

[48:50] know more about who he is and who he wants to be, maybe my sister-in-law isn't the best fit. I don't know. We'll see. Right now, she is 100% our best fit. So, that's great. I have it in place. We Everybody knows. Um So, I don't know, you know, it's it's uh I think I think it's just a matter of starting for that that hurdle because that's completely overwhelming. It's so it's thinking about my own mortality, I deal with this all day, every day. I joke about it a lot because I deal with it all day, every day. But like, thinking

[49:25] about it myself and thinking about not being there for my kids is is will make me cry right now just talking about it, but it's it's heartbreaking. I cannot imagine them being parented by somebody else. But I'd rather decide who that somebody else is than let somebody else decide that. Let the court decide it.

[49:46] >> Yeah, oh god.

[49:46] >> So, I think I think really it's just like just just start. Just start doing something. You know, just start documenting. You don't have to do it perfectly. You don't have to be done tomorrow, but just start the process. Starting with a special needs trust is a great thing because at least then you have the legal framework in place. And then the letter of intent side, which can be kind of a really emotionally challenging, can be done over time. And it can be done in piecemeal. It doesn't have to be like you don't have to sit down for 8 hours and write it all out, you know. So Yeah, I think it's just it's just a

[50:21] matter of like Just just start. Just do a little bit today and then you'll have something

[50:27] >> to say I I and I I'm in my fourth, you know, fourth season of doing this show. You are the first to point out what I think maybe should be the signal aspect of estate planning, which is don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good because no estate plan is perfect, right? Even if we're not dealing with a special needs issue, it's it's never going to be perfect, but but the good is so much better than the absence of an estate plan. Um yeah. Yeah, so I'm going to be I'm going to be attributing that to you from here [laughter] on.

[51:01] >> Oh, good. Even though I got [snorts] the phrase wrong, it's okay.

[51:05] >> We all knew what you I was [laughter] like it going in my head I know what Sadie means and it's it's not coming right. So I I remember the question that I dropped in a few minutes ago and and I think you may have partially um answered it just just a a moment ago. Um how do you look at um socializing um the you know, the terms of a special needs trust and and the letter of intent with other people who, you know, would

[51:41] would still be around at the point where, you know, these these documents, I guess if we could say become relevant. And the reason I asked the question is I don't get a consistent answer. You know, some when I talk to estate planning attorneys about this, some are like, well, you know, it's your private business. Others are like, no, you know, you want to socialize to avoid conflict. I'm I'm I'm very curious to to know your perspective because unlike with a traditional estate plan here, in a very, very real way, the welfare of

[52:17] an individual is at stake, right? And And so, talk talk if you would. This probably the last last question cuz we're coming up on time here, but how do you how do you look at socializing that plan? You know, how or how I should say, how do you advise your clients um when it comes to socializing that plan?

[52:39] >> [clears throat]

[52:39] >> Um by socializing, do you mean like talking about it with the people in the in their life? Okay. Um I regardless of um the type of client I'm working with, I 100% say talk to your family. Talk to your family, have these conversations. So many people keep their finances a secret. I can kind of relate on some level. Um And maybe the finances don't need to be like explicitly shared, but at least like if one kid is getting their assets in trust and the other two are getting

[53:15] theirs in lump sum, have that conversation now because you probably have a reason for it and you don't want your kids when you die to now resent each other or resent you postmortem because you did something differently that they don't understand. So, always I do recommend and I do recommend talking about things ahead of time. With uh clients who have a special needs loved one, I you have to, I think. You have to talk

[53:50] to the people that are in their lives to know who is capable, willing, and to step in and and take over some duties. Whether it's taking my kid out to the movies every Friday night, you know, maybe that's something that I've done I hear this this is a very common scenario for so many people that I talk to is every Friday night they go to the movies. You know, they're used to that. That's part of their routine. Who's going to do that after I die? Who's going to take my kid to the movies every Friday? Cuz that is that's their expectation. So, even if it's just finding a family member or friend who's

[54:26] willing to do that, let's have those conversations. Let's make sure that everybody's on board. There's so many people that need to be a part of our loved one's lives when they have it some sort of disability that I don't really see a way not to do that. And I think that not talking openly about this stuff just makes it harder after you die as the caregiver. So, I I I implore my clients to talk to

[55:02] their to the people named, you know, I don't even want them to name people as a guardian whether it's an individual special needs or not. I don't want them to name that person unless they've talked to them first because like what's the point?

[55:15] >> [laughter]

[55:16] >> You name you have this list of three people that you've never talked to and none of them are able to do it or none of them are willing to do it, then you have a list of zero. And now we're you know, you're dead and you have nobody on your list anymore because all three of these people have some other thing going on in their lives that prevents them from taking on more responsibility. So, that's my advice. I I understand why some people want to keep things private. I get it. I'm not that type of person and I just I think it um I just think it makes things easier when

[55:52] everybody is kind of on the same page cuz then we don't have resentment after somebody dies. We don't have fighting among the family. That's one of my biggest things that I want to prevent. It's just we don't want your family fighting because after the parents generation dies, the kids have all of this deep-seated emotional baggage with each other often times that will just bubble up and there's nobody there to like calm it back back down and so then we you know, we don't want to add fuel to that fire at all.

[56:26] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, for for what it's worth, I I agree with that perspective um because I I I think even if a a family member is hearing something that they really don't want to hear, um better off to deal with it up front and at least you have an opportunity to maybe get them used to the reality of of what's going to happen then to have all that, you know, and uh angst and potential trauma worked out now with once you're gone. So, they're going to

[57:01] inevitably it seems they take it out on on those who are um left behind who had nothing to do with the decisions in most cases. So.

[57:09] >> Right. Yeah, I'm sure you see that on the other side of things quite a bit.

[57:13] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Sadie, I I I cannot thank you enough for for coming on the show and talking with me about this. Um it's it's such an important subject and and I think one that um you know, a lot of professionals who are involved in estate planning maybe don't know as much about it as as they could. So, hopefully, you know, this will help them. Um for those of you who are watching, Sadie mentioned a a couple of resources. She mentioned the book on California

[57:50] um special needs planning. I'll put a I'll get the the name of the book and author from from Sadie. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. So, if you want to you know, if you want to check that out, you'll you'll be able to find it. I think that's a a great resource. I I hadn't heard about it before, so I'm I want to get it cuz I I want to get the copy of the book. [laughter]

[58:11] >> That's a great book.

[58:13] >> And also I'll I'll get um from you the link to was it Danny's place, I think you said?

[58:19] >> Danny's

[58:20] >> I'll put a link to Danny's uh place in there as well for so that, you know, you have that resource for doing letters of intent. I Those are Those are both great. And of course, um I'll put in Sadie's contact information, so uh you know, if if you want to be in touch with her, um I'm sure she'd be happy to to help you out, work with you. Uh even if you are another attorney who does not specialize in this area, um you know, I I I think it's perfectly valid to bring in a specialist like Sadie who can make sure that this aspect of your client's life is properly

[58:58] handled. Um and that's that's probably a better uh solution than than than winging it. And and you know, do we even have to say that obviously Sadie is extremely knowledgeable and experienced in this area, so uh you know, you you you you could not possibly be in in better hands. So.

[59:17] >> Thank you.

[59:18] >> You're welcome. I'm going to um I'm going to just do a quick wrap up here and then we'll we'll talk offline. So, um thank you all very much for joining us today. If you have questions, comments, criticisms, links to social media are in the show notes. Feel free to, uh, you know, to post your uh, your comments. Um, my email address is there as well. If you've got something private, you you can contact me. I'll be happy to try and help you. Just I I I sometimes forget to add this caveat. I don't ask If you ask me for advice

[59:53] outside of my area of knowledge, I'm not going to give you that advice, but I will refer you to someone that I I think can help you. Um, and so, uh, just just real quickly then, um, my slate of shows during the week Mondays at 10:00 a.m. Pacific Time, Trusts and Estates Weekly, which you're watching now. Tuesdays at 10:00 a.m. Pacific Time, Business Lessons from the Military. Wednesdays at 10:00 a.m. Pacific Time, uh, People Making Money. And then every other Thursday at 5:00 p.m. specific Pacific Time, uh, join me for a cocktail and a schmooze at Jigger's Place. We talk

[60:28] about things that are not related to finances as we head to the end of the week. So, uh, Sadi, again, thank you so much for being on the show today. Cannot, uh, thank you enough. And that just leaves me to sign off as I always do, reminding you, Marie darling, you are my bell.