The WAY to WOW Shows
Walking the Estate Planning Path with Your Clients
March 16, 2026
Automatically generated from YouTube captions; names and wording may contain errors.

[0:01] Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemmel, and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and probate administration. Um, we we tend to focus on on the professional side of it or for professionals like myself and my guest

[0:37] Jordan. Uh, but this is also an opportunity for those of you who uh I I I call lay lay practitioners. Maybe you you've been appointed a trustee or maybe the executive of an estate, but that's not what you do, you know, in real life and and you're trying to figure all this out. So, this hopefully this will be an opportunity for you to understand better how the various processes work and and and be able to uh communicate um better with your uh your various adviserss. So, uh, today I'm I'm very happy to

[1:13] introduce my guest, Jordan Parr. Um, Jordan and I have known each other, I think, for going on a couple of years now. Uh, and, um, we're actually, uh, in involved in a matter together. Um, we're not really, we're not adverse to each other, but we're not, you know, necessarily on the same team either. Um and um maybe Jordan will talk a little bit about that um during the show, but um uh Jordan practices Jordan as you can see with Hillfair and Burell Buril I should say uh here in Los Angeles um offices in downtown LA I think right?

[1:49] >> That's correct.

[1:50] >> Yeah. And um and uh so um Jordan, welcome to the show. um why don't you start out just by giving the the viewers of just a little at least a little bit of your background so they can get a feel for who you are.

[2:04] >> Sure. Thanks again for having me on Kevin. It's a pleasure to be here and I have a somewhat unique background in the law. Um I was a church minister for several years before becoming an attorney. Um I fell into trust and estates. It was something um that an opportunity opened up for me uh when I was transitioning out of ministry and and into the law. Um and I didn't know a lot about it at first, but I've really come to love this area of practice and it's basically 90% of what I do as an attorney at this point. Um I found that

[2:39] my ministry skills have really doveetailed beautifully with this area of law because people are confronting their mortality. Many of my clients are mourning the loss of a loved one. They're thinking about their legacy. Um, and I encountered these kinds of conversations frequently when I was working in ministry and, you know, felt comfortable coming alongside people and and trying to provide some comfort and now as an attorney, some guidance about how to move forward and and move on from, you know, these loss or how to set up a plan that really reflects, you

[3:15] know, your wishes. Um, so it's been a real joy to be to be in this area of practice. I've been doing this for about six years at this point. So, um, you know, they call that a mid-level associate, I suppose. Um, I'm getting an LLM in taxation from Lyola Law School. So much of what I do on the planning side and the admin side um, is tax implicated. And I've really enjoyed um the LLM program because it's given me a much deeper appreciation for the nuances because tax is such a complex area of law. Um and I'm surprised at how

[3:52] fascinated I am. I didn't think I would actually enjoy the program as much as I do. It was more just kind of to at first get the credential, but now that I've been doing it, um I'm pleasantly surprised and I I like getting into the weeds of tax stuff. Um, and basically I live in Hawthorne with my wife and our son. We've got another baby on the way who's due in June. Uh, so excited to welcome in number two. And as you can see, I can work from home. I'm not always in downtown LA, but I do it is a hybrid schedule, so I I split my time between my home and my office.

[4:29] >> Well, so so this is this I must I don't think I knew that you had been in the ministry before. So, oh gosh, the poor viewers. They've got a couple of, you know, exclurgy here because I don't I remember if I told you I was a chaplain in the military.

[4:44] >> Yes, I definitely saw that on your resume and I think it's, you know, as I'm sure you've encountered th those skills really are universal. Um, and it's great to be able to use them to help our clients.

[4:56] >> Yeah, for sure. and and you know on my side of it where I'm involved in the administration side where there's oftentimes disputes and and it seems like you know every uh you know fight slight that ever happened in somebody's life you know it comes out now that you know mom and dad are are gone um and so those those you know the skills that I gained uh in dealing with those kinds of issues have been incredibly beneficial in in addition to dealing with people who are who are grieving So uh yeah ve very very you know it's very interesting

[5:31] to uh that's why I always like to hear about people's backgrounds before we start. So um talk about if you would um sort of the the the typical situation in which you find yourself and and and how you I I I always describe tell people when they when they say well you know is this something you're interested in? I always say if I can add value to the situation that then then I'm interested in in it. I'm not interested in being involved in a situation just because maybe I can earn a fee. So talk talk to

[6:08] us if you would about again the kind of uh situations in which you typically find yourself getting involved and and how you add value to what's what's going on because I know you do having seen you you know doing your work. Well, um, so within the trust and estates world, there's three areas of practice that I find myself, you know, devoting most of my time to, and that's the planning side. So that's actually drafting the estate plan, getting it set up. Um, the second being the administration side,

[6:43] which is the plan is already set up. an event has happened that makes the plan now become operative or that they need an attorney to help uh guide them through making the plan effective essentially. And then finally the litigation which is when people are fighting over the plan. And so each one of those buckets sort of has um classic scenarios that are every every case is different but there are certain themes that that come up every time. So on the planning side, it is very common um for me that I have clients come in and say,

[7:21] you know, my mom just passed away and um we had to go through probate and it was terrible. What do I need to do to make sure my kids never have to experience that? And the way you avoid probate is by setting up an estate plan, specifically by setting up a trust and moving your assets into the trust. Um that's setting up a trust is probably one of the most important um estate planning goals that a person can have specifically because the California probate process is so timeconuming and

[7:56] honorous. I mean I've heard clients sometimes say like well my my cousin in you know some other state that's not California said probate was easy and it's like that may be true but in California it's a whole different ballgame. Um, so people come in and they they just know they don't want probate, which is a good thing. It's a good starting place. And then I'll help them come up with a plan uh to to not only avoid probate, but also to achieve their goals. And there are so many and part of what I love about this job is being invited into families because every

[8:32] family is unique. Although there are themes that occur, you know, across uh different situations, but for example, I have clients with very large estates and there's a lot of complicated tax planning that needs to be done and and gifting strategies that we can implement to, you know, mitigate some of the tax exposure. And then I have other families that, you know, they own a house, they have some retirement savings. It's not so much of a tax issue that they're concerned about, but for example, it's common that, you know, maybe you have grandchildren that you want to take care of and they're not going to be old

[9:07] enough to really, you don't want to give an 18-year-old um an unfettered access to an inheritance. You want them to be taken care of, but we can put safeguards in place so that there's a trustee, you know, responsible for managing that young person's inheritance. I also have clients, unfortunately, people they want to benefit maybe struggling with substance abuse issues and they want to help them, but they also know you can't just give unfettered access to to these funds. And so there are again safeguards that we can build into the plan to make

[9:42] sure that the that the inheritance is there but but is used in a responsible and and safe way.

[9:50] >> So that's the planning side. Um on the or go ahead.

[9:53] >> Yeah. So, so let's if if if you would before we before we go on to the next topic, talk if you would at some of the tools that that you use in some of those situations because I, you know, I think e even for people who are relatively knowledgeable about it. So that okay, yeah, I got to have a trust, a living trust. Yeah, I've heard of that, right? But but that I that seems to be where people's level of knowledge stops, right? And so talk let's go in a little bit deeper and talk about some of those tools if you

[10:29] would.

[10:29] >> Absolutely. So um in that scenario where you have minor beneficiaries or you have a beneficiary who you don't necessarily want to have unrestricted access to their inheritance, you build into the living trust what are called terminating trusts or they could be non-terminating trusts. They're basically subtrusts that get funded upon the person who sets up the trust, the trust or the settllor. When that person passes away, you you put instructions into this trust document to say, "Okay, I want x amount of dollars or x percentage of my trust

[11:06] to go into this new subrust for the benefit of my grandson or, you know, my my brother who has some issues or whatever it might be." And then you put the instructions into the subtrust saying the trustee may only make distributions for these sorts of uh um things. So a very common um language that you'll see in trust documents is distributions for health, education, maintenance, and support. And that's a legal term of art that has some, you know, weight to it within the law. But what that ultimately means in practice

[11:42] is that the trustee may make distributions for like living expenses, you know, health care bills, uh, your groceries, rent, but not extravagantly. So, you might be able to get, you know, your car payment um, made for for under the health, education, maintenance, and support, but it's not a Ferrari, you know, it's it's your it's your daily driver. It's a reasonable car. Um, so that that is a very powerful standard uh for distributions because it makes sure that your beneficiary, okay, at least they're going to have their bare necessities uh covered by the trust. You

[12:19] don't need to worry if they lose their job or, you know, something happens where, oh, how am I going to pay the rent or how am I going to put food on the table? The trust is there for those sorts of um, you know, necessities of life. So that's usually a baseline that we do for these subtrusts for these kinds of beneficiaries and then their extreme customization is possible um in terms of what other um distributions you can make. So on the most low resolution uh level you could just say and then the trustee has absolute discretion to make

[12:54] any other distributions. And what that means is basically the trustee gets to decide. Um there's no guidance for them. It's just whatever the trustee thinks is best, they can make certain distributions for that. And then you can get much more specific where you can say, for example, if my beneficiary graduates college, then they get um x amount of dollars from the trust as kind of a a motivator to to to have them, you know, pursue an education. Um you can also put in things like the trustee may make a distribution to help start a business or uh for a down payment on a

[13:29] house. So those sort of life milestones that you maybe want to have your beneficiary have help with, um, you can give the trustee leeway to make those kinds of distributions. And then I guess what earlier it's a terminating trusts if if the beneficiary is somebody who who's just young and again people change over time but oftentimes it unless the trust is really really large it doesn't make a ton of sense to to hold an inheritance in trust in many cases until the beneficiary is like 50 or you know

[14:04] when they're when they're well past that irresponsible uh season of their life so to speak. So what we'll do sometimes is say you know when the beneficiary turns 21 they get 25% of their trust um you know to do with what they want. When they turn 30 they get 50% and then by the time they get they're 35 they get everything. So the trust terminates at age 35 so that the beneficiary now is no longer having to ask the trustee to help them out with you know whatever the distributions are.

[14:39] That is a very common setup. But again, there are certain situations where often if the trust is very large or again, if you have somebody who's not really even as an adult capable of of responsibly managing money where you can keep the trust going um for as long, you know, up until that beneficiary passes away if there's anything left. So that's um kind of an overview of these subtrusts that that can be created. Um, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. There's lots of other techniques and and strategies, but um, we can go down that road or we can

[15:15] talk about however other, you know, what other topics you'd like.

[15:18] >> Yeah. Just just one more question on this topic and that is you talked about, um, sort of the range of discretion that the trustee can be given. talk if you would a little bit about h, you know, how do you advise uh a client as to how much discretion or lack thereof they they you know would would end up giving a trustee because I can imagine it's it's not a one-sizefits-all, right? It's it it there must be some

[15:53] thinking behind well give them, you know, absolute discretion, you know, give them very narrow narrow discretion and everything in between.

[16:00] >> You're 100% right. It's not one-sizefits-all. It's very family dependent. Um, often it's it's very unique to whatever the situation is. So, for example, um, here's an here's an instance where I would not recommend a very like a discretionary trust. I would want clear guidelines in place in a blended family. So for example, there might be a situation where you know there are kids from a previous marriage and it could end up that the the second spouse who is not the biological parent could be making uh be the trustee of the

[16:36] trust. Now again, it's a a generalization, but typically you would want or I would advise my clients that, you know, because there's not the biological relationship there, you you kind of want to give some more instruction to the trustee. Um because especially if the that that spouse maybe has biological children of their own, there's always the temptation for that person to kind of want to favor their own children at the expense of the the, you know, stepchildren. So in those situations, I would say, you know, here

[17:13] are the kind of distributions the trustee will make. So the trust instrument makes those decisions for the trustee. It's not up to the trustes discretion. Now then on the other side of the spectrum, if it's a very warm and close family and the trustee is somebody who everybody, you know, trusts and there's not, you know, this potential conflict of interest, I'm more comfortable with a a discretionary standard for that because it's like, you know, in a scenario like, for example, if if one spouse passes away and there's a trust for the kids from both of them,

[17:49] well, it's like that's your that's your mom or your dad. you know, they're gonna you trust them to make distributions. But again, that's not always true. Sometimes biological parents have very strained relationships and that that's not possible. And the inverse is also true. Sometimes stepparents have great relationships with their stepkids and you know there's no concern. So there's really no um blanket statement that you can make. It's so dependent on the the relationships and the family dynamics at play in this. So, um, that's just an overview of the kind of situations that

[18:24] could come up that would lead you to to go towards a more discretionary or a more like directive style of uh, trust. and and and and just kind of wrapping this up, it really sounds like, you know, going back to what you said at the beginning, one of the reasons you enjoy this work is because you get to know families, you get to know the dynamics. And so that's it sounds like that's more than just part of the the you know enjoyment of the work. It's also part of really being able to understand how to best advise in you a particular situation.

[18:58] >> Absolutely. And this is one of the main reasons why I think um you know Legal Zoom and some of those DIY estate planning services that are out there are are can be challenging because if you're filling out a survey and it's just giving you a document a lot of times these programs don't know to dig in to like oh you said your son is um looking for a job how you know is how's his employment history been? Is there a reason why, you know, or you know, you want to like get to know the story and you can end up in these situations with these with these plans that are not

[19:35] crafted or tailored by an attorney that don't take into account the the nuances of the family dynamic. So, to your point, absolutely. It's not just something that I enjoy. It's part of my due diligence as an attorney to get to know the the dynamics at play so that I can really make a custom plan that that fits for the family. So, absolutely, it's so important to be curious and to get to know um your clients.

[20:04] >> Great. Wait, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and talk about the second part of your work. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step.

[20:39] Magnum Properties, Inc. turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. Okay. So, so let's let's move on now to kind of this the second part of your work. um you know talk talk about that and and again you know kind of fill us in as as to how you approach it and what you see as being the you know some of the important issues with which you have

[21:15] to deal.

[21:17] >> Sure. So, it's the administration of either an estate plan or when somebody passes away without an estate and you estate plan and you end up in probate court, there's an administration that has to happen in order to transfer the deceased person's assets to the beneficiary. So,

[21:35] >> on the trust side of things, the common scenario is, you know, somebody comes into my office says, you know, my mom just passed away. She had a trust. Here it is. I'm the trustee. What do I do? Um, and the trust administration that unfolds is governed by the what's called the probate code and it's governed within the trust instrument. So the trust instrument and the probate code are kind of intertwined and guiding how how the trust administration has to happen and there's certain procedures that that need to to occur in order to make sure that there's no liability for

[22:12] the trustee. Um because if you fail to for example provide notice to the beneficiaries that this the person who set up the trust has passed away then there's basically a lot of challenging things that can happen by just failing to provide that notice at the beginning of the administration. So it's not uncommon where you know costcon conscious clients might say well I I kind of just want to do it myself. I just I know I'm the trustee. can figure it out. I mean, that is a very risky um path to take because of the complexity

[22:49] of the probate code and the procedures that you need to do. Um it's it's very advisable to to get um an attorney to make sure that you're following the you know you're dotting your eyes and crossing your tees so to speak because the last thing anybody wants is you know their name trustee and then something goes sideways and then maybe a beneficiary is unhappy and then you know things spiral from there and you can end up in litigation because you know you you made a mistake and you're exposed as as the fiduciary. and fiduciary law and

[23:26] by fiduciary I mean a trustee an administrator in a in a probate context it's somebody who has to put the the the needs of the beneficiary above their own because when you are a trustee or you you're acting in this capacity you have access to you know these assets that they don't belong to you but you control them so you know it's very important that you don't you you remember that that's not your money. You might be the one signing the check, but you have to manage and steward that money appropriately or else you can end up in

[24:02] a lot of trouble. And uh trust administrations can range from fairly straightforward where it's everybody gets along and maybe it's just selling a house and then you distribute the proceeds and you ask if they will want an accounting or you know even then you have to do these procedures. Um but that that often you know it's common enough but it's very also common that the beneficiaries do not get along. Um a sort of classic fact pattern is you know parents have three kids, one's a doctor,

[24:37] one's a lawyer and the third lives on the couch. And um you know the third one was living with mom and dad in the house like in the guest room or whatever. And then mom and dad pass away. And then you know that person doesn't want to leave the house anymore and the other siblings are upset because you know you don't just get to live in the house rentree. It was one thing when mom and dad were there and and they had made that decision but the trust says that the house is split between the three of us. We don't want to live there with you. That house should be sold and we just

[25:13] split the money. And then you know the the negotiation and the cajoling that can has to happen in order to get that third sibling to leave the property so that it can be sold can get very uh messy and complicated. So that's just one of many ways that a trust administration um can need uh professional um help in order to to to bring it to its conclusion.

[25:38] >> Right. Right. uh you know it's it I mean it's it's it's interesting because this is I this is the part of the business that I see the most of right the administration side and uh uh it it's it's so funny because even what can look like a very straightforward administration and I just helped a longtime friend of mine with wrapping up the administration of a trust he and his three brothers right they were the beneficiaries under a trust and they depleted all the liquid assets but one of the brothers was living in the house and so they let him live there for another gosh was over 10 years, right?

[26:15] And and now he really couldn't live on his own anymore and you know like what do they do, right? And now it's like you know they all get along but they're also brothers, right? And so I said look I'll be happy to help you out with this. You know, I I frank I did it pro bono just because he's been a friend of mine for so long. But, you know, even when people get along, it can still cause difficulties, you know, in in the administration. They had closed the trust bank account. They couldn't find the trust document. You know, all these things that go on and uh it can get

[26:51] pretty complicated pretty quickly. So,

[26:54] >> absolutely. It's not always even like you said a a personality issue. It's like reasonable minds can disagree. We, you know, we're all, we all like each other, but I think it should go this way, you think it should go that way, and, you know, how do you how do you get past that impass? And, um, you know, that's why as an attorney, I I appreciate fiduciaries like Kevin who are true neutrals who can kind of step in and be the decision maker and say, "Look, I'm not here to take sides. I just got to get the job done." Um and and that often is is a very powerful way to get past um you know when when people

[27:30] just can't agree on something is saying all right well we got to bring in a third party and it's usually worth the added expense because you're saving the attorney's fees um uh by by doing that. Um, so on that's on the trust side and then you know if somebody passes away without an estate plan they go through the probate court and you would be surprised I' I've done uh probate administrations from very large estates from people who were very successful business people um sophisticated who you think like how did you amass this kind of wealth and not have a trust and the

[28:08] reality is that um you know it's an emotional topic I setting up an estate plan for many people there are cultural I have certain clients who there's cultural reasons that if you sign a will that's like that is uh sort of creates a bad feeling and so people just put it off and then something happens and then you end up in probate court. Um, and and that process is very technical and you're going to court and you're having to report to the judge and you're having to get an inventory and appraisal from a referee. And there's all these steps

[28:43] that you really need to be able to um to comply with. And the judges, God bless them, are very patient. Many of them are, especially with people who are clearly figuring it out as they go along. But that patience will run out. And if you keep getting, you know, told to do something and you're not able to get it done, it's not I've seen judges just, you know, basically deny a a petition for probate or something. So that that person has to start all over again because they couldn't get it done. So that's another reason why having an attorney make sure that things are done

[29:19] properly so that you don't end up um in these situations where you're having to start back at square one is so important. Yeah, one of the matters that takes up a great deal of my time is a $50 million estate. The man was very, very successful, died without an estate plan. And I mean, it's just it's mind. And the funny thing was he was actually working on one. He'd been working on it for years, but he could never sort of, you know, pull the trigger on actually doing it. And, you know, he unfortunately he died unexpectedly. He wasn't particularly

[29:56] old. He was in his uh I think he had just turned 70, which these days isn't that old. And oh my gosh, what a mess, you know, he left behind because he had an operating business, a lot of real estate. Uh you know, the only thing that made it easy was he only had one heir, you know, so that part of it. Uh but but but of course other people came out of the woodwork trying to gain status as an air, right? So it it it's you know, the administration, we're two years into it. Um, not to mention, you know, we because of the size of the estate, it's liable to estate taxes and and so that adds

[30:32] another, you know, level of of complexity and also time, right? Because we're we can't close the probate until the IRS basically signs off on the audit. though. Uh so what what do you do um as the lawyer to try and help smooth through the process of probate because I I I'm you know I'm in court on a pretty regular basis and I there's there's a difference between how lawyers

[31:07] handle things and you can see the ones who are it seems like are really trying to make things go smoothly and the ones who just don't really seem to quite be focused in on what's going on here.

[31:22] >> I think one of the biggest assets that a lawyer brings to a probate administration is clarity in the sense of here's what needs to happen. And yes, you are the administrator, you the client, you are the one who needs to go to the bank. you need to you're the one who needs to do the things, but I I'm going to call the plays. I'll tell you what to do and and you will be the one to to make it happen. And so, you know, there are certain things that I can do as the lawyer, like I can draft the documents. I can talk to the bank if need be. Um I can help, you know, negotiate certain things if there's

[31:57] other attorneys involved or what have you. But at the end of the day, what I really am uh in a probate administration especially doing is just saying, "Look, it's it's really depending on each situation, but a lot of it is is is routine there. Every probate administration, you got to get an inventory. every probate administration you've got to file an accounting you know or well unless they wave it and again there's always permutations but right um I can give the client just the road map of of what they need to do so that you know the court system can feel

[32:32] so overwhelming and and probate in particular is a very niche part of the court system it's a it's a relatively small uh community of legal professionals who are probate and trust and estate attorneys. Um, so it's a it's a it's an somewhat obscure area of the law and it is um, again, it's governed by this probate code, which if you ever see a copy of it, it's like a tome that's like this thick,

[33:00] >> right?

[33:00] >> Um, and so it's just as a lay person, you kind of feel I I would imagine like you're stepping into the wilderness when when you get into probate court. And so as as your attorney, my job is to be your guide. like we gotta go through the wilderness together, but I know the paths to take. Um, and I know how to avoid, you know, the the bears uh cave or what I mean, I'm abusing the metaphor at this point, but the point is is that

[33:27] >> um I can shepherd the the the client through the process and hopefully get it done um with as little surprise as possible, but surprises often happen, you know, just regardless. Um because like you mentioned earlier, people come out of the woodwork that you never heard of and you have to deal with them and or there's some other um you know creditor that existed and you know a million different things that can come up but um having an attorney as as your guide is is really valuable

[33:58] >> and and correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds like in a way you're almost more than a guide. You're almost like a coach in a way like you know cuz I I remember the first one the first probate I did which is now quite a number of years ago was actually in the uh great state of Alabama right and you would think that it would be much easier in a state with a much smaller population and and where you know your attorney probably goes to the same church as the judge you know kind of thing right and like and when

[34:33] they when he walks in the courtroom. He's like, "Hey, Dan, you know, how you doing?"

[34:37] >> And see you on see you on the golf course later. Yeah.

[34:39] >> Yeah. Exactly. But but you know, it's probate is it no matter where I don't know, this is what I found having, you know, having operated in more than one state, probate is a complicated process and and it especially for someone who doesn't do it all the time, it it can be almost mystifying like wait, what do I have to do this for? what it has to be valued as of the date of death of the all this kind of stuff, right? So, I'm curious what you think about, you know, this this idea of of being a coach.

[35:11] >> Absolutely. Um, and I think the coach image also captures an important part of the emotional component of of doing a probate administration. Many times the person doing the probate is the child of their parent who is now deceased, which of course is an emotional thing. every time you are going through the the court proceeding, it's a reminder of, you know, that family member that is no longer with us. And so, you know, adding that emotional layer on top of the procedures and, you know, all the technicalities like it can be a very

[35:47] heavy burden to to carry. And and this is one of the areas where I feel like my ministry background has served me well is I'm coaching people not just in terms of like this is what you have to do but also like we're going to get through this together and there is a level of you know emotional support. I mean, again, you want to have clear boundaries and make sure that like if you want to go to a therapist, they charge a lower hourly rate, but not that um probate fees are not hourly usually anyways, that's another discussion. But um the idea that I

[36:23] really have to come alongside my clients in order to do my job well and and encourage them and and you know press us both forward um as a coach or a guide um to say hey we're going to get through this. Here's what we need to do. Here's the game plan um you know and and let's go get them. You know that that kind of uh positive you know we're gonna we're going to do this. uh you know because sometimes people you know in moments of frustration some clients like throw up their hands and say you know what am I doing when is this going to be over you know etc etc so a lot of my job does

[37:00] include that um coaching element certainly

[37:04] >> so so since you're fellow clergy I'm going to take a chance and throw a little bit of a curveball at you because I think this this really will speak to that background how would you h help uh the administrator of an estate date of of an intestate succession where the situation let's say there was a a long-term you know partner of the deedent who because it's an intestate um you know succession and and the the partner they were not married there was no you know registered domestic partnership so they're not a legal heir

[37:40] and yet you know I could imagine a situation where the you know the the administr ator would want to take care of that person and yet legally you know he he cannot do that because that person is not a legal heir. So what what some thoughts on that if you would?

[38:02] >> So you got to follow the law you know that's that's number one. I mean as a lawyer that's you always got to do that. So they're not a legal heir. They're not entitled under the laws of intestasy to receive part of the estate. Now I would start there. I would also say that look okay okay okay let's talk to the legal heirs you know can we work something out amongst us that you know everybody can sign off on and feel good about and maybe there's a solution where you know after the probate is is um you know completed or even potentially you know

[38:37] you submit something to the judge saying hey everybody signed off on this you know petition for instructions can we distribute this that way I mean There there's there's strategies that you could employ. But the important thing is that you in that kind of situation, everybody's got to be on the same page. Everybody has to be singing in unison because if one person says, "No, I I don't care how long they were together. I'm entitled to this and this is what I want." You got to respect that that's how the law um plays out. Um so, you know, it's a an unusual situation. And

[39:13] I've not encountered something like that before. Although I did have a situation where there was an insinuation that a certain person who was in the family was actually a uh a child, but like an unknown child. Um, and you know, it was never spoken aloud, but everybody kind of knew. And so it was like, all right, well, they could litigate this and we're looking at like DNA testing and all this stuff. And so the all the heirs say, "Hey, we know this person. We're we we don't want to litigate this issue and you know, we'll settle the dispute

[39:49] before it happens." And and they came up with a deal where the estate got split appropriately. So um there are options, but yeah, you always got to follow the law.

[39:58] >> Yeah. I I I this the scenario I gave you is is related to a situation on one of the estates I'm handling where the long-term partner of the deedent he's he's getting nothing and the fellow is heartbroken and there's not there's there's like 10 heirs there's not an opportunity to say to them hey you know give him something for crying out loud and you know I I went and he's occupying the house I went and sat with him and he's you grown man crying. He's just so, you know, and I I

[40:33] said, you know, brother, let me give you a hug, man. I said, I I said, I unfortunately financially there's nothing I can do for you. Um, but but for crying out loud, I recognize your humanity. You know, it's I I think that sometimes gets lost in the the whole push and pull of the financial aspects of an administration that we're dealing with people here fundamentally. So,

[40:59] >> and I think that's such a good point and especially as the administrator, your empathy in that situation um is is so valuable. I will say that as an attorney, there's more um it would not be appropriate for me to talk to a beneficiary like that that I don't represent um in in that kind of way because at the end of the day, I have to you know, my client is my client. Um, but you know, as the fiduciary, you are you have a little bit more leeway in certain respects um to do that. But I think your overall point that look, this isn't just money. It's not just numbers

[41:35] on a page. This is people's life and legacy. Um, yeah, we can never you you you can't ever lose sight of that. Um, and it's very important to to treat these matters with the weight that that they deserve.

[41:49] >> Yeah. Let's take another quick break and then we'll come back and talk about part three.

[41:58] >> Probate and Trust TV, your curated source for the most useful and insightful content on estate planning and trust and probate administration. Featuring standout professionals like Bill Gross, Paul Bralet, James Cunningham, and yours truly. Whether you're a lawyer, accountant, real estate professional, or working on your own succession plan, this channel helps you quickly find the clearest, most practical content YouTube has to offer. Subscribe now to Probate and Trust TV. Spend more time learning, less time

[42:34] searching. Okay, so we we've covered estate planning, we've covered administration. So the the the third part of your practice involves litigation. This is actually the the the part of the practice um in which you know we've we've been involved. So talk talk about that now and and and how how that works and and what it looks like.

[43:00] >> Yeah. So unfortunately the reality is is that oftentimes when uh somebody passes away you know relationships change um and especially when there's money involved um things get complicated and and people um often need to resolve these disputes in court because it's just not possible to privately um come to a agreement that everybody can can sign off on. we need a judge um to to ultimately decide this.

[43:35] And so these cases are, you know, very colorful often. Um they can be very challenging. Um you know, when you have family members who are are fighting each other, that's always um a heavy thing when you know siblings, you know, the the relationship has become so strained that um you know, now they're suing each other. Um, and a very common unfortunate reality is the blended family dynamic that I alluded to earlier um can can get very latigious quickly when biological

[44:10] kids and stepparent um don't see eye to eye and that is that is always um a possibility that it's going to erupt in litigation in those cases. So um when I say colorful I mean the fact patterns that you encounter in this space I mean this is very different than say like uh a corporate dispute where it's like contract negotiations gone wrong. It's it's things like the matter that we're working on is, you know, there was a forged will and uh you know, a a person

[44:46] who was living in the estate property and and it just you never know the kind of um the the things that are going to come up in this area and it it is part of what keeps the job interesting. Um and you know just the the realities of when you know sometimes um the family was only being held together because patriarch or matriarch was there to kind of keep the peace and then when that person passes away it's like the knives come out. Um and you know it it is true

[45:23] that there are times where there has been injustice. I mean, I do a lot of elder abuse matters and I I feel privileged to be able to um advocate for um elders who have been taken advantage of. And the elder abuse statute is extremely powerful. I mean, we're talking double damages, treble damages. I mean, the the language of that legislative history for the Elder Abuse uh act is basically saying, "We want to make it um worthwhile for attorneys to

[46:00] take up these cases um to to prosecute abusers because so often elders are are not given the respect and the um the courtesy that that other clients are." So, um the elder abuse stuff it does again it's heavy but it's a righteous cause um often and when we're able to bring justice to those people who took advantage of some of the most vulnerable in our community it's it's a very um it's a worthwhile uh endeavor for sure.

[46:35] So let let's stay on that point a little bit because candidly it rarely comes up on on this show and and I think when when people hear that term elder abuse they're thinking of you know someone who's been you know god forbid assaulted or something like that but it's but it's actually

[46:55] >> you know I I think much bigger in scope. So talk if you would about um you know some of the broader issues and and maybe some of the things that you've seen in your practice that can be clues to realizing that that there may be elder abuse going on.

[47:16] >> Yes. So, the most common type of case that I deal with is typically financial elder abuse. And that's where somebody, you know, takes advantage of an elder financially. Um, and an elder is anybody over the age of 65. And that can range from just somebody who's 68 and, you know, they still have their facilities, they're they have capacity, and it can range to people who are have dementia, um, who are incapacitated. um they're all elders under the statute. And you know, it can range from somebody where

[47:52] um a new person comes into the elers's life and convinces them to give them money or you know change their estate plan or or whatever to benefit that person. That happens. Unfortunately, it also happens where a family member uh somebody who was a trusted member of that of that elers's life takes advantage of um their family member. I've got one case right now where a very wealthy elder, you know, he's a brilliant guy. He's still got capacity, but he's um ultimately an academic. And

[48:29] so, he is all about, you know, knowledge and learning. and he doesn't really despite all the money he has he's not really interested in running his business which is very profitable but he he's always he always relied on his wife um to handle the administration and all that well anyways his wife passes away and then his daughter says oh dad I'll you know I'll I'm happy to take over uh running the the business for you no problem and then lo and behold it is discovered that daughter is embezzling millions of dollars from her father um because he she took advantage of the

[49:05] trust because he he wasn't looking over her shoulder. I mean, he wasn't interested in the business to begin with and he's not he didn't he never would have expected his daughter to do something like this, right?

[49:15] >> Then so now that we've found the abuse, you know, we're litigating that vigorously. Um and you know, it's just one of those cases where yeah, it feels good to be uh riding the white horse, so to speak, and you know, bringing uh this person to justice. God willing.

[49:33] >> Um, and so, you know, in a situation like that, I mean, do you do you end up getting involved in, you know, conservatorships, that sort of thing, or maybe maybe we we have just a few minutes left here. Maybe um we can wrap things up talking about what are some of the tools um either besides or in addition to straight out litigation that that you can you know that you have in your kit to deal with these situations.

[50:03] >> Certainly. And um I do handle conservatorships sometimes. It's a more rare part of my practice. And in the interest of time, I'll just leave it at that. But if you if anyone wants to talk about conservatorships, I'm happy to um you know have that conversation. But I think the second part of your question is probably more practical for our viewers, which is what what are the tools that we have? And I would say um setting up an estate plan is often a very good tool because what it can do is you know we talked about the trust and certainly the trust is important but when the elder is still alive um the power of attorney is also a very uh

[50:39] important document. So for example, you know, if an elder loses capacity, you know, they have dementia or whatever, if they've named somebody who is a trusted, you know, fiduciary that they can rely on, then that that decision-making power now transfers to the trustee or the power of attorney. um who now can manage the elers's affairs on their behalf and not like allow the elder to get entangled in in these situations where they might be abused. So oftentimes good planning, you know, before there's an

[51:16] issue um is is a very uh important part of of avoiding litigation. I would also say for those, you know, who have elderly family members, I would be um on the lookout for who they're spending time with and especially um new people who come into their life. And again, you don't want to look at everybody as a potential abuser, but you do want to be sensitive that like, hey, what where how did you meet so and so and you know, um what do you guys have in common? And you know, I'd love to get to know them a little bit better since you guys are spending time together. and just kind of

[51:51] keep be wary that unfortunately this is a real problem that people do get taken advantage of. And so it's it's important to go in with elders knowing that you know they are potentially at risk and if if you have that you know love for them you want to be you you don't want to be overbearing and you don't want to be overly paranoid but you do want to be vigilant that hey you know who is this person and I you know I see you guys uh are spending all this time together and tell me more. So, I would I definitely see um you know the

[52:26] relationships uh as an important thing to keep an eye on um if you have an elder in your life.

[52:33] >> Yeah. I I I have a very long-standing friend whose father got a new caregiver and he he and his family don't live here in California and lo and behold, you know, she kind of wheeled her way into the father's good graces and the next thing we knew she had stolen about $100,000 from him. and and this was not somebody who had millions of dollars. It was, you know, huge sum of money. So, it's it's it's people can be very insidious. And and by the way, I'm not even sure that she she intended when she first took on his care to do that, but it just the opportunity presented itself

[53:09] to her, I think, and it was so tempting, she couldn't resist. It's very that is so common and so true where you have especially in people in caregiving capacities or people who are helping it's it gets so easy to kind of trick yourself or like believe the lie they're like well he wants me to have it anyway. Um you know and and even though they don't really realize that you're manipulating it and this person is dependent on you. Um and so it's very easy to be um to convince yourself that hey this is all okay. um when when it's really not. And the caregiver one is

[53:45] Yeah, that's another common theme um in these kinds of cases.

[53:49] >> Yeah. Well, well, Jordan, we could easily spend another hour. We could have spent probably an entire show on each one of the categories, but uh I thought it'd be good to kind of at least touch on them. Going to have to have you come back. We and and we can go in some more depth on some of the things that we cut short, the estate planning tools, etc. But I really appreciate you coming on the show today and and talking with me. Uh if you haven't been on the show before, but people have been on the show before know this is the time I always give the shameless plug if one is warranted.

[54:25] But you can, for those of you who are watching and listening, the clarity with which Jordan explains the work that he does, the the kinds of issues with which he helps people, uh, you can see that that clearly he he knows what he's doing, has actually very deep knowledge, and, you know, he's he's his heart is in it. We used to say um when I was a a chaplain in the Navy, you know, his heart is in his ministry, which unfortunately was not always the case among my fellow chaplain. Uh so, you

[55:00] know, um all of Jordan's contact information will be in the show notes after the episode posts on YouTube. And if you have questions or maybe you're involved in something and you think Jordan may be able to help you out, I I encourage you to reach out to him and and I know he'll be happy to to talk with you and and help you out if if he possibly can. So, so Jordan, again, thank you so much for being on the show today. I'm going to do a quick wrap up and and we'll talk offline for a moment.

[55:33] >> Great. Thank you so much for having me.

[55:35] >> Oh, you're welcome. Absolutely. So folks, thank you for joining us today. Um, I I'm I know you got a lot out of it, so I won't even I won't even talk about that aspect. Tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time is my show uh business lessons from the military. And then on Friday, I'm sorry, not Friday, on uh Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. is my show business um Oh boy, I'm really I'm really fluffing this. Okay, let's start over again. Take two. Tuesday, tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. is my show, Business Lessons from the Military. And then

[56:11] Wednesday at 10:00 a.m., both Pacific time, is my show, People Making Money. So hopefully uh you'll join me later in the week. And then just a quick reminder on Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Every other Thursday is my show, Jiggers's Place. We have a cocktail and a schmoo and we talk about all the things unrelated to finances, things like relationships and and God and values and books. So, uh again hopeful hopefully you'll join me for that. So, uh Jordan again one more thanks before we before we sign off. Um

[56:47] great having you on the show and that just leaves me to say Marie darling you are my belt. You know you are courage at all times my friends.