The WAY to WOW Shows
Dealing With 'Zombie' Employees or Partners
January 14, 2026
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[0:00] you and where are you going? What do you want? Hello and welcome to People Making Money. I'm your host, Kevin Beml, and I'm here every Wednesday at 10:00 a.m. to talk about job hunting, starting and running a business, and building wealth. So, the whole financial side of our lives. And I don't know why my computer is dinging. I thought I closed my email,

[0:35] but in fact, I did not. There you go. Okay. So, uh here we are in 2026 and uh I don't know about you, I did not expect the year to uh ramp up so quickly, I guess, is the best way to put it. Uh it's it's it's been a busy uh 14 days, two weeks I guess that that the year has been going on here. But uh you know it's it's as they say it's it's better than the alternative. So uh I I I you know I don't know how much you follow other areas of the business you

[1:12] know press and podcast world. Uh but um there is uh certainly from time to time it seems like with increasingly fre increasingly frequently uh stories about employees ghosting their employers. This was a term I did not know for a long for a quite a long time. I didn't know that it meant it what we used to call blowing somebody off, you know. Um, but in any event, I you know, the idea of ghosting an employer. Wow. I mean,

[1:48] like not showing up, still collecting a paycheck until the employer, I guess, finally fires you for not showing up. That's that's really uh not anything in my experience. I I I I will admit. Uh but but evidently, this is uh something that goes on these days. And uh you know thinking about that while presumably the people doing this are not at are not doing um work that's crucial uh to a business

[2:24] because presumably they would be missed very quickly. You know if the I don't know if the vice president of marketing doesn't show up for a while. Presumably somebody notices after oh let's say a day or two and gives them a call and what's up you know kind of thing. uh but you know it it it it is a u it's definitely an issue and uh you know what do you do about such things now that they don't show up okay that you know again eventually you're going to

[2:59] figure that out but what do you do about people who show up but don't really do what they're supposed to be doing to me that's that's a a really a bigger problem because uh and and I know people who have done this they they've told me about it I won't mention any names I don't want to you know dime anybody out but you know the idea of sort of mailing it in as we used to say I you know again if you're in a big huge

[3:34] company maybe people can get away with that there certainly were people who got away with that when I was in the Navy and the Navy is so huge uh there's you know so many people and while on in one way most units or at least a lot of units are underst staffed in other ways you know the the ethos of the Navy and and this is true of the Marine Corps as well-w with which I also work very closely the mission still has to be met so if somebody is is dropping their pack other people are going to pick it up and see that it gets not. Uh and then when

[4:11] it comes time for uh annual fitness reports, you know, hopefully that all gets sorted out and eventually that person is sort of shunted to the side. And you know, depending on what level they're at, they get a reputation for not being diligent in helping meet the mission. And so, you know, they don't get promoted and out they go. Uh but you know in a small business to have an employee or worse a partner uh not taking an active and you know

[4:47] reasonably enthusiastic role in what's going on is extremely problematic and it can cost a business dearly. it it could in an in an extreme situation even cause the business to fail. Now hopefully the other people involved would, you know, be watching what's going on and wouldn't let it get to that point. Uh but, you know, in a in a fastpaced um

[5:22] fairly um high pressure work environment. Sometimes people get so focused on what they're doing, they don't realize what's happening around them and it's not until what's happening affects, you know, their portion that they realize, oh, hey, something's wrong here. And if the person in charge of the enterprise, the owner, the CEO, president, whatever, whatever that person's title is, isn't paying careful attention.

[5:57] um you know these can become huge huge problems. So I I I want I decided I wanted to share a few thoughts on this this phenomena phenomenon of uh zombie employees and uh co-owners or partners. What did I what did I call this? Uh dealing with zombie uh you know employees and or or partners. So uh be because I think we we we need to be on the watch for it if

[6:33] something is not working at at our businesses. And by the same token, I think, you know, those of us who are employees or if you're an employee, I'm I'm I guess I'm an employee of my own company, but if you're employed by somebody else and you feel yourself slipping into this role, maybe it's time for some evaluation of, you know, do I really want to be doing this? Do I need to be thinking about going somewhere else, working for another company? Why do I feel so unmotivated about my work?

[7:10] Uh is that having or what kind of impact is that having on the other areas of my life? You know, is this just a sign of a general malaise um you know, etc., etc. So I think uh these kinds of issues usually don't happen uh just they're usually not just um relegated to our our our professional lives. Uh they they often connect to other parts of our lives. And

[7:45] so, um, they're they're a sign that we need to take a step back and and think about, you know, what's going on and and and why and what we need to do about it. So, uh, you know, as far as I know, there's no technical definition for, you know, what a zombie employee or partner is, but it's basically somebody who's, you know, still on the payroll, still an owner of of an organization of a company who is no longer meaningfully contributing to the enterprise, right? And and by the

[8:22] way, this could be a nonprofit as well. It doesn't have to be a for-profit company. So, uh, we think of working with with or for a nonprofit as being more motivating than working for a for-profit company. That certainly has not been my experience. There are times when it can be very demotivating working for a nonprofit despite it supposedly having uh, you know, a defined mission and and a cause. it's pursuing and all of that. And and sometimes it's it's coming

[8:58] because the organization has lost its direction and and people feel like we're I'm no longer involved in what it was I thought I would be doing for, you know, as as someone working for or even volunteering for a nonprofit. A and and by the way, just we're I'm talking in the context of paid employment or partners, co-owners, uh but if you're running a nonprofit and you start to see this kind of malaise among your volunteers, you know, that that's that's a problem as well. Now, if it's one volunteer, it

[9:35] could be something related to that individual, but these things have a way of spreading. And so even if we're dealing with, you know, so-called, you know, volunteer employees, for one of a better way of describing them, you know, if if if if I'm leading a uh a nonprofit, I I'm going to and I see somebody who's disengaging, you know, I want to talk to that person. Why is this happening? Why do you feel this way? because it could be I it could

[10:10] be something I'm doing as as you know the the the leader of the of the organization. It could be some conflict. There could be a another you know even volunteer or or employee who is you know turning off other people. So we want to get to the root cause of people disengaging whether we're you know paying them or not. So uh you know how how how do people you know come to this I I I think is is an important question and um I think often

[10:48] times what happens is there's something difficult that the person needs to deal with and they instead of dealing with it they avoid it. Now it could be that you know the focus of their job is changing. It could be that the the person the people with whom they work has changed. They don't like the new people. Uh it could be any number of reasons. But but um because of

[11:23] um because of these difficulties their performance starts to decline. And rather than dealing with the issue upfront, um, you know, going to let's say the problem stems from, uh, maybe there's some new members who have been added to the team and the person doesn't get along with those new members. Maybe they feel like they're not being accorded proper respect. As someone who's been on the team longer, knows more about what's going on. New people come in. Oftentimes, they're very

[11:58] excited. I had this happen in the Navy, by the way, um when I was uh sent to Germany to deal with the warrior transition program. And I was very excited about being a part of helping my, you know, fellow uh sailors and officers uh go through a transition when they were coming out of uh South Asia or Africa. Getting them ready to go back and reunite with their families. It was something I knew a lot about. I'd been very involved with it for several years and so I was excited about having the

[12:34] opportunity to do this and live in Europe. Didn't want to be away from my family. But, you know, in talking to my then wife about it, I I was very excited. And unbeknownst to me, the uh chaplain who uh was back at headquarters in the United States was furious that I was so excited about doing this and had all these ideas that I wanted to bring to the program. And he basically sought to undermine me uh as as quickly and as effectively as he

[13:09] could. And and he was uh pretty successful at it, as a matter of fact. And from my perspective, I I was completely demotivated because I had gone there committed to be away from my family for a year to help, you know, my shipmates out and here my nominal supervisor is completely undercutting me. And and you know, it it was impossible in in this case. I tried to speak to him about it. He didn't want to hear it. As far as he was concerned,

[13:46] you know, he was he was sorry he had ever met me. That's actually what he said to me. Like great great leadership right there. Right. Uh and and and and by the way, he said it very he screamed it at me in a public place. So, you know, oftentimes though, the problem is the person who's becoming the zombie does not want to talk about it. they they avoid what they think may be, you know, a controversy. And so instead of dealing with the issue that's causing them to feel demotivated, they just avoid it and

[14:22] they, you know, they they they back off. Um and and they kind of count oftentimes they count on prior success, prior productivity to shield them from uh the perception that they've somehow partially or even completely disengaged from uh you know from the activity of of the business of the organization. um and and and and that's how they're able to sort of you know coast along and

[14:58] and so this is why it's important that uh that that you know leaders of a business you know pretty routinely engage with employees at all levels just to you know see what's going on try and get kind of early warning signs of problems. All of these are are critical to making sure that the organization uh remains vital and that uh employees and partners remain connected and enthusiastic

[15:33] uh about the enterprise. So especially with co-owners, I I think co-owners need to meet on a regular basis. They need to be they need to be talking about about these issues on a regular basis. Okay. So there's there of course is a hidden cost to this uh a hidden cost to zombie employees and partners and that is that the business is paying them for a certain amount of work or you know a certain amount of productivity however you would you would describe that and and it's not getting that

[16:08] and so then they become a drag a financial drag on the business but That's not that's not necessarily even the worst part. You know, maybe the business is prosperous enough that it can carry a little bit of sort of dead weight, but it is the almost power of these people to infect others that really is the hidden cost to a business. and especially if that person

[16:43] is a co-owner or a partner or someone in a very senior leadership role even if they're not actually an equity stakeholder. So when other people in the organization get a get a kind of a drift of what's going on um or they feel like the somebody else's work is getting sort of pushed off on them um you know and and the other person is not carrying their you know their full weight well so then that will demotivate that person. Now

[17:20] look, there are times when people have personal issues, they have struggles, whatever it is, and and a and an individual employee may not be able to be as productive as they typically are. That's that's not the issue, okay, for someone in that position. and hopefully they can go to, you know, their team leader and and say, "Hey, I just I need you to know what's going on with me. Um, you know, I' I've got some problems at home or, you know, God for I don't know,

[17:56] God forbid, my child is sick. It's it's really kind of tearing my guts out, you know, something like that." uh and and say I you know is there a way I can get a little bit of relief from the the the the stress, the pressure, the demands of my job? I I you know I I need to be able to put more of my attention on you know personal things. you know, an employee who says that I I think in general um should be accommodated, but the people who are going to pick up

[18:33] the slack should be asked affirmatively. Look, you know, um Bob is um you know, he's got some things going on and I I need to I need to take some of some of the work off his plate. I'd really appreciate it if you know you would take some of this on you know kind of for the good of the team and and you know look hopefully this won't happen but you know god forbid this happens to you know hopefully you would know that the rest of the team would you know kind of stand

[19:08] with you through this and and and cut you some slack and and that's the that's the kind of work environment I'm you know as the team leader I'm trying to create, right? So, that's not a zombie. That's someone who's affirmatively dealing with what's going on. The zombie is the person who's trying to hide it or just doesn't care enough about what's going on to address the issue. And and so that causes the kind of resentment that is so corrosive uh to to an organization. Going back to

[19:44] that um example that I used earlier when I was in the Navy, the program was called the warrior transition program. We were stationed at a at a army base in Sbach, Germany. And you know, I I I I have to tell you that uh the it wasn't just be it wasn't just the way I was treated. Um it was how things were run in general. um especially after the officer in charge turned over. So the new guy who came in was kind of a pet of the commanding officer of the parent

[20:20] unit and he had no leadership ability at all and people just disengaged. It it was it was one of the worst professional experiences of of my life. And you know, the uh assistant officer in charge and I we we tried to get, you know, headquarters to understand uh what was going on and they just didn't want to hear it because we were outsiders. The insider was the officer in charge and they didn't want to believe what we were saying. and the

[20:56] the the the more junior people were afraid of retribution because the the commanding officer of the parent unit back in the states was known for doing that. And and and indeed in the end he clobbered the uh the assistant officer in charge and me. That that's that's what happened. And and you know and the problems were allowed to fester, right? Um and and and I I I I say I bring up this example for two reasons. One is the sailors coming there uh as as a transition as a as a way stop

[21:34] were not being well served and well taken care of. That's number one. And number two, millions and millions of dollars a year were being spent on this program. It was held up as as sort of this jewel of the naval reserves and we would have admirals come to see it and I think we even had a congressman come and see it or whatever. Um I mean I think they just wanted a trip to Germany but whatever. Um and it was a complete farce when all was said and done because the only motivation for having the

[22:10] program was to have the program so that the so that the uh you know high ranked people could come and visit it. Um but it was not at all doing what it was supposed to be doing. And and in fact, well, anyway, my my point is is that it was no wonder that people that we had so many zombies in that unit because um our mission was not being met. And then on top of that, we're away from our families. Yes, we're in Germany. Germany was a great place. Um but it wasn't like

[22:45] we were, you know, free to travel in whenever we wanted. we worked um five and a half to six days a week, sometimes seven days a week uh running this program. So um and and and that was another that's another issue. You know, people were coming there thinking, "Hey, I'm going to have a European European vacation on the Navy's dime, right?" No, that's not the way it works. And so they had been improperly prepared to come there. And so when they got there and realized what the demands were, they did not engage. And so we had again a unit of zombies.

[23:22] Very very unfortunate for all concerned. Okay, let's take a break and we'll be back for more. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step.

[23:58] Magnum Properties, Inc., turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. So, okay. So, you know what what are the warning signs that you have a zombie employee or partner, right? So, um the first is decision avoidance, especially if it's if it's a partner or

[24:34] a co-owner. So if if if the practice has been that just you know especially big decisions were made kind of jointly and the person won't engage that that's your first clue right there. But even among more rank and file employees they have you there's decisions made at every level and the reluctance to make decisions is a sign that something is a miss. So is procrastination just chronic delay of completing tasks of you know whatever it

[25:10] is that needs to get done right now. The chronic delay all by itself won't necessarily mean that you've got a zombie on your hands. It could be that the person is not responsible for the delay. So, you know, person who's like beating your desk, saying, "Look, I've got this deadline to meet, but I need, you know, George and Sue to do X and Y, and I can't get George and Sue to do X and Y, so I can't meet the deadline." Right? Okay. So, that person isn't the zombie, but maybe George and or Sue are are the zombies,

[25:46] right? So, but but if there's a chronic if if there's a chronic delay or procrastination, the source of that needs to be found because that that may very well be where the where the problem lies. And then finally, the sort of like checkbox participation. So, you know, person comes in, goes through the motions, but nothing particularly productive is is is happening. And you can see this among salespeople. So, you know, they come in, they sit at their desk, maybe they make a couple of calls, but they're not

[26:22] really producing any any sales. Well, again, that's a problem. Now, you know, if they're if they're a commission salesperson, may not be as big a deal because if they're not producing, they're not getting paid. But if if it's a salesperson who's on a salary plus, you know, override or whatever. So now you're paying somebody who's responsible for, you know, bringing in the bank in and they're not and now you don't have revenue to run the company. So, so those are some of them. Um, and then another sign, and again this is especially true

[26:58] among co-owners, partners, is if they start expressing strong opinions, you know, after the fact. So, a decision has been made, they couldn't be bothered to participate in the making of the decision, but now that the decision has been made, they are criticizing it. This is a sign of a disengaged uh or a zombie partner. and and this this may be the kind of passive aggressive way that they that they've chosen to handle the situation. Now, I I I should add, by the way, that people

[27:35] aren't always aware that they're turning into a zombie. Okay? If you watch zombie movies, right, uh you know, that person's not always aware, but but the same is true here in in in real life. So uh you know you may have you may see you may have a partner and and and of late they seem to always criticize they they defer to you to make the decision and then turn around and criticize you for the decisions you've made. So that that you know at that point I think you need to sit down with that person and say hey what what's what's what's going on here right? We didn't used to be like this.

[28:10] Okay. All right. Um so another issue that arises then is sometimes leaders will rationalize to keep the zombies. So, uh, you know, if it's a particularly well-liked person, okay, or you know, kind of the the pet of of of the office, so to speak, they may be reluctant to get rid of the person or the person may be just very very popular with the other employees. And so, the team leader doesn't want to be, you know, the bad guy getting rid of this employee that, you know, everybody else likes. So,

[28:46] that's and so they'll rationalize keeping the person. Another issue may be they may be afraid of litigation. I I don't want to fire an employee. Uh you know it it it's not that they I can identify anything specifically that they've done wrong. It's just they're not being productive and I don't want to get into a legal fight. That can be a problem. It can also be personal conflict. So the zombie just because the person is a zombie doesn't mean that they're not aggressive. Again look at zombie movies, right? they'll they'll eat all kinds of stuff, you know. Uh but

[29:22] uh you know, if if the if the team leader uh is in conflict with the person, they could be afraid of, you know, becoming part of a volatile incident. Um and so rather than deal with all of that sort of pain and suffering, they just sort of, oh, you know, they'll they'll snap out of it, it'll be fine, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. uh rather than uh you know dealing with the conflict or dealing with getting rid of the person and now having to find somebody else, right? There's a lot of work in there.

[29:57] So you have somewhat of the sort of sunk cost fallacy in this. So you know we've already invested so much in this person to, you know, fire the person now. Oh, we're going to lose all that investment and then we're going to have to find another person and invest in them. Well, that may be the case, but this is why it's called the sunk cost fallacy. If a person is is has become a zombie or is headed to zombie dum, right? And and and can't be turned around um in terms

[30:33] of their performance. So, it's not going to get better as as time goes by. And as I've mentioned already a couple of times, that, you know, disease will start affecting other employees. And now you've got, you know, a whole zombie universe there in your organization. And so you just, you know, the reality is we can't get hung up on what we've invested in this person. If if they're not going to perform at the level at which, you

[31:08] know, the person needs to perform, they'll have to be let go. um there's a shortterm cost to that but long-term it'll be almost for sure better for the business both financially but also in terms of the culture of of of the organization. So there are some key differences between uh a zombie employee and a zombie partner. So, you know, employees can be managed, they can be managed out

[31:43] in in the end, they can be fired. They're an employee. Okay? And as long as the proper procedures are are followed for, you know, the law in your state and federal law, whatever, in the end, an employee can can be fired and and and somebody new hired or you can promote somebody from within and and that can solve the problem. So if if the if the zombie is a partner, that requires structural solutions. that person in most cases cannot be fired. Rarely do partnership arrangements allow

[32:20] for such things. Now, often times partnership arrangements are rather ad hoc. There's not a written partnership agreement or if it's an LLC, sometimes an LLC is supposed to have an operating agreement, but sometimes they don't. And so then on exactly what terms can that person be um asked to leave the business, forced out of the business, it may not be clear at all. And in and in an event like that, the the prospect of litigation is is real, right? So, you

[32:55] know, the first issue um in dealing with a zombie partner is to make sure that when a partnership is formed, and I'm using the term partnership now fairly loosely, whether it's a an actual partnership and as as its legal entity or whether it's an LLC or a corporation, right? There should be a a clear written agreement that will deal with these kinds of issues. Maybe there's some sort of buyell agreement. Um, you know, how

[33:30] however you're going to work it. I'm I'm not a lawyer, so uh I I I can't tell you how these things are uh constructed legally. What I can tell you is you should sit down with a lawyer and have a written agreement put together and and a lawyer who's experienced in dealing with uh the kinds of issues that come up between the co-owners of a business, right? Because if if if a co-owner if the if the only remedy appears to be that one of the that that owner has to leave, so what are you going to do about equity in the

[34:05] business? what are you going to do about uh uh you know continuity in the business? Um you know all of those become crucial and they can quite literally cause the business to fail if they're not dealt with effectively. Okay. So uh you know if if if you have a proper agreement so then you know you can act in accordance with the terms of that agreement. But if there is no agreement now, there's there's an even worse problem because there's no clear

[34:41] path to resolving the situation with a zombie partner. There's there's probably going to have to be some very uh difficult discussions. Um maybe uh you know, a mediator needs to be brought in to help facilitate those discussions. or maybe you sit down with your lawyer or if you've got a a if you've got a board of directors, maybe sit down with the chairman of the board of directors or something like that. Someone who can help work through these issues. Okay. Um but in it it is much harder to deal with

[35:17] a zombie co-owner than it is to deal with a zombie employee. There's there's no doubt about that. So you know what what are some practical options for addressing this problem? Well, one is and I'll deal with the the employee side first. One is to have clear expectations of employees. Okay? So they should know um what is required of them in their job. Okay? And there should be uh performance reviews. There should be

[35:52] consequences for subpar performance just like there should be rewards for above par performance. Right? All of that needs to be worked out really at the time a person is employed. Okay? So again, it's much better off to come to an agreement on these issues at the start of a relationship than it is to try and figure them out ad hoc now that the relationship is has been established and is ongoing. Okay, so uh does it need to be in writing? Well, you know, that's

[36:28] usually best, right? And the you know, look, just because it's in writing doesn't mean it's immutable. So it can be changed. Maybe every six months you sit down with that person, you kind of go, you know, you as the team leader sit down with that person and you go over it together. You make whatever modifications need to be made. Okay? And and and again, we're not talking about a situation where someone has something going on else going on in their life that's distracting them from work. um you know you that may very well be uh um

[37:05] I mean it it may distract them from their work but that may be perfectly acceptable in the context and if the person is being responsible in in identifying to the team leader what's going on. Okay. So maybe they're not meeting you know the the you know expectations as outlined you know in the written agreement. Um, but it's understood that, you know, there's something going on here that, you know, the the employee needs to deal with and and and you know, um, that's understood by the company and and they're going to,

[37:40] you know, they're going to give the, uh, the employee the the space and the time to work that out. Okay? So, those can always be done and and I think they should be done, right? Especially if you've got a good employee, right? We can't we can't expect people's personal lives never to interfere with with their professional lives. Okay? This is not 60 years ago where that was largely the expectation. And and I'm not even sure not let me let me rephrase that. I don't think that was a good policy to force people to so bifurcate their lives uh is is an

[38:18] unrealistic expectation. We need to be holistic human beings and those of us who are employers, team leaders, whatever we call ourselves, we need to be mindful of that. Okay. Um so start out by uh the best way to avoid well not avoid but the best way to prepare god forbid that there are zombie employees in our organizations is to set clear expectations and then have periodic opportunities to review them and they shouldn't be kind of checkinthe box

[38:53] opportunities because then people will learn that they they really don't have any meaning. They'll essentially ignore them. No, they should be substantive. They should be even if you're doing written performance reviews. I know again going back to my Navy days. So uh I got a written performance review what was called a fitness report or fit rep every year and I was asked to give input to it and then you know it was drafted and and in the end the commanding officer was responsible for whatever it said and for signing it and then you know each each year um I would go

[39:31] and meet with my commanding officer and we would discuss you know his findings. Um, and now, you know, fortunately for me, I always got outstanding, you know, fitness reports until that, you know, one unit. Um, and so, uh, you know, I never I never had to have, uh, you know, an uncomfortable meeting with a commanding officer until that last one. And I already knew that that was going to be bad. I I knew he disliked me. And so, fine, whatever. Um but um interestingly enough um sometimes issues did arise because as kind of as a

[40:08] chaplain kind of the eyes and ears of morale and well-being in the command I would take those opportunities to kind of give a fitness report to my CEO so he knew what was going on and where I thought there were there was room for improvement and and and I think that a Good. By the way, a good commanding officer was always happy to hear that input. Okay. I I I I was able to tell a bad commanding officer because I would say something like that and they would say, "Well, I haven't heard about that."

[40:44] It's like, "Well, sir, that's why I'm bringing it to your attention because I assumed not." Right? A good commanding officer would say, "Oh, well, this is important, chaplain. tell me more about what you're seeing going on and and give me your thoughts for addressing it. And that's how in the civilian world we should be as well. So if we're doing u a debrief, if you will, that's what we called it in the Navy, um on someone's performance, we should be open to hear what they have to say about what's going on as well. And rather than poo pooing

[41:21] it or or insisting that the person is is misperceiving it, just let them speak their minds. Okay? Maybe maybe they are misperceiving the situation. Maybe everybody else thinks differently than this person does. That doesn't make them wrong. Okay? And they could be giving us important information, especially if they're the zombie and we finally get them talking. Okay? they could be giving us very important information that can really help us improve the organizational culture, right? So, we

[41:57] need to, you know, be clear about our performance expectations and make sure that we're having kind of an ongoing discussion. I don't mean literally mean ongoing, but maybe a regular discussion, a periodic discussion about it. Okay. Now, you know, another option for addressing a zombie is is to look at maybe you need to redesign the role for a particular employee or for that matter for a partner. Okay? Maybe they're doing something that it turns out they're not good at doing. Okay? But maybe they'd be better in this other role. So I want

[42:33] again I'm not gonna say the people because I I don't like to but I I know of an organization where you know they basically the organization has created a quasi zombie employee and and the real problem as I keep telling this person is you need to be the one running the organization, right? you have the clearest vision and you have the loyalty and respect of everybody and the current CEO does not. I it's it's just he just doesn't he I I I know him.

[43:09] Uh he's a very nice guy, very sharp in his way, but he doesn't have the skills to run the organization. Uh and and and that's just the reality of it. and and he's partly if not largely responsible for creating the zombie that I that I've been talking to. So these are the kinds of things, you know, role redesigning roles can can be very good. If it's a co-owner, maybe we need to just restructure the equity of the company and then negotiate an exit for the

[43:44] person or something like that, right? if if there is no agreement. So then that is inevitably what's going to have to happen. Uh unless you know you want to get into litigation. Okay. And and finally um what do strong businesses that don't have zombies or that rarely have zombies, what do they do differently? Well, the first thing they do is they stay aware of the state of their their team members, of their employees, of leadership from, you know, top to

[44:20] bottom, right? They're engaged. And this this is the hardest part of running a business is staying engaged with your people in these days where I I there's less remote work going on now certainly than a couple of years ago, but where you know there's still a lot of remote work going on and and and and it's become uh for many companies just the way things are going to be. it's it's much easier to become detached from what's going on with your co-workers. And so, uh, periodic opportunities for people to

[44:57] meet in person for enough time that that especially leadership can get a sense of of how people are doing. Those need to happen. Okay? It's just it's Zoom is just well, I I don't mean to blame Zoom. virtual meetings just it's much more difficult to do that. So you're not picking up on the sense of people when you're meeting when we're meeting virtually. So I think that that's um that's a critical aspect of it and that is a leadership aspect. Okay. It's it's

[45:35] unlikely that if an organization has a zombie that leadership isn't at least partly responsible for the creation of that zombie. Okay, that's just the bottom line. What else can be done? Well, work to build systems where contributions, not just, you know, length of service or or history of past accomplishment are what's rewarded, but but real contributions, real engagement in what's going on is important. And they can't be

[46:10] these sort of gold star, you know, employee of the month, employee of the quarter kind of things that oftentimes go on. Um, no. I I'm unconvinced that those are have any real impact. And and by the way, they don't even have to be rewarded in the sense of, you know, a bonus or whatever. Rewarded in the sense that people are recognized. So, I know with with people on the various teams that I create for my my primary business, administrating probates and trusts, uh, you know, I look for opportunities where

[46:46] I see, you know, a team member or team members really engaged in in uh, you know, dealing with especially a tough problem. and I let them know proactively how I how much I appreciate them being so engaged and and and you know I let other members of the team know that as well. So there's nothing like that saying thank you a sincere thank you to people who are engaged to motivate people to stay

[47:23] engaged. Okay, it's the flip side. We want to be aware of people who are disengaging and um I'm trying to think, not confront them, but engage with them to see what's going on. But we also we don't want to be so obsessed with, you know, potential zombies that we forget the people who are truly engaged and really seeking to meet the goals of of the organization. We want to be equal. We want to recognize those people as well. Right. And again, this is what makes it so

[47:58] tough to lead an organization. It it can be exhausting at times, but but that's what we're here to do. Okay. So, uh you know, potentially, you know, very very difficult situation dealing with zombie employees, dealing with zombie co-owners. Um and avoiding it does not make it better. Okay, that's the main thing I will tell you. avoiding it does not make it better. Need to stay, you need to stay engaged, need to stay on top of it. Uh even if in the beginning

[48:34] maybe you don't deal with it as as well as you think you should have or as well as you might have, doesn't matter. Be engaged. Let people know you're you're sincerely concerned about what's going on with them and work the work the situation from there. So, I thank you very much for joining me today and especially my live viewers. Uh, tomorrow at 5:00 PM I want to double check this. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I'm pretty sure tomorrow at 5:00 pm Pacific time is my show

[49:09] Jiggers's Place. So, I hope you'll join me for a cocktail and a smoo. And then we'll I'll be back next week for the full slate of the Way to Wow shows. So, uh, if you have any comments, criticisms, questions, uh, links to the social media will be in the show notes after this episode posts on YouTube. So, feel free to reach out. My email address is there as well. And let's see. I haven't I haven't asked this in a while. It's a new year. Uh, if you know someone who you think might be interested in this discussion or other ones like it or might benefit from it, maybe you know a

[49:46] zombie, right, and they don't realize they are, send them a link to this episode. Suggest that they take a look at it. I'd be I'd be very it it I would love to have the opportunity to uh help them and and even perhaps gain them as a subscriber as I would to uh gain you as a subscriber if you're not already. So, I wish you a wonderful rest of the day and signing off as I always do. Marie darling, you are my bell. Courage at all times, my friends.