The WAY to WOW Shows
Handling Estates from Modest to Monumental: A Lawyer’s Perspective
November 10, 2025
Automatically generated from YouTube captions; names and wording may contain errors.

[0:00] Who are you? And where are you going? What do you want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates Weekly. I'm your host, Kevin Bemel, and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about uh estate planning and trust and probate administration. And today I'm very pleased uh to have as my guest uh Chris Johnson uh great

[0:38] trooper because he was actually scheduled to be on the show a number of months ago and we had we had some problems with uh reream. So, so Chris is Chris is back today and Chris is a a lawyer in the uh estate planning and probate and trust arena. He's been in the profession for for many many years. He brings an absolute wealth of experience. He currently practices uh both in the Pasadena area if I'm remembering correctly and also out in uh

[1:13] the Coachella Valley, Palm Springs, Palm Desert. So, uh uh Chris, thank you so much for sticking in there and coming on to the show.

[1:24] >> Oh, sure, sure. You know, I wish I knew more about technical issues, but I'm completely helpless on solving those. So glad to to be here and be able to talk. Well, you would think after six years of doing these shows that I would have them down pat, but you know, they they change so quickly that I have trouble keeping up with them myself. So, uh, so Chris, I, you know, I gave you just a brief, uh, introduction, but, um, tell us, let's start by having you tell us, uh, you know, about your background, uh, how you got into this area of law and and and just sort of broadly what it is you

[2:02] do and the and, uh, you know, the kinds of, uh, cases in general that you work on before we get into some of the specifics.

[2:11] >> Oh, sure. Sure. Thanks. Well, so I've been uh doing it for most of the 30 years I've been practicing. Uh actually coming up on 31 in December, next month. Um but I knew I wanted to get into the wills and trusts area. Um, just because my family's business was working with charities, doing their charitable trust planning and gift annuities and identifying donors who wanted to leave money to charity and then finding some ways that might help them out uh like through the charitable trust to do and

[2:46] uh in working in the family business, I like the planning side of things. And so when I went to law school, I thought, well,

[2:54] >> um, I will do that unless I find something I else that I like better. And, uh, I really didn't. And so I got into it and started my own practice in 95 just because, uh, nobody seemed to be hiring for anything other than insurance defense around uh, mid 90s. Well, if if I'm gonna do this, you know, now's my chance. and uh no kids, low bills and uh you know so just started from scratch and kind of figured my way didn't think I'd ever be going into

[3:29] court you know as I found and there still is it's just a demand for probate too uh so maybe you know 96 like a year after that after I started just uh took on my first probate case and have been doing that in uh uh LA County but also kind of San Bernardino, Riverside, Orange County ever since.

[3:54] >> And what what you know the we I titled this episode uh handling estates from moderate to uh uh I think uh what was the other word I used?

[4:05] >> Oh, monumental. I guess

[4:06] >> monumental. Yeah. So, so you know, give us an idea of of the scope. Uh because I I you know I know other lawyers who you know all they want to do is handle the great big huge ones with you know international scope that kind of thing. And I know other lawyers who they really handle just the you know the smaller estates um you know even under you know a million dollars but they they have kind of a system where they just you know crank through it seems like you know I don't a couple hundred of them a

[4:41] year or something like that. So you you you seem to have a different strategy.

[4:46] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we kind of just, you know, from from the beginning since they just needed work, you know, you took on all kinds of things. Um and then you kind of figure out what you like doing and um like you probably have heard, you know, there's a lot of people say, well, I I just work with high netw worth estates. And

[5:06] >> I don't know, it's probably a a fluid kind of definition. Um but you because what you also discover is um as many people as there are even in you know the LA area that really most people are not you know up in the stratosphere as far as wealth goes and so the kind of estates that take complex planning really are very few and far between and I don't think I could make a career out of them I know some people do um but uh uh really most of the ones we handle are

[5:42] somewhere between probably two and 10 million seems to be our planning sweet spot.

[5:48] >> And then there are others though where um in California even with some newer probate laws a trust really makes the most sense if you have a house. And so you know if you've got a house that's worth even 600,000 well it still in most cases is going to make sense to do the trust planning uh and avoid probate. Um but you know then there are other clients where it's 100 million 150 million and um most of the time for those since I don't do those every day will bring in some extra help because um

[6:25] you know everybody especially at that level could benefit from a trust. Um, but beyond that, uh, there are plenty of other things you can do to shrink the estate tax bill. And that gets into, um, you know, what what's the comfort level for people. You know, I've I've kind of found everybody wants to keep it simple. Um, but, you know, if you've got if you're looking at a $40 million estate tax bill, there are some things you'd probably want to do to shrink that. I think I've only run into one client who said and guess this was I don't know 15

[7:01] years ago he had 30 million so at the time there was going to be tax on at least 10 million of that

[7:07] >> and he despite all the planning options we gave him said you know I'm fine paying the tax I think that

[7:14] >> this country's been good to me I don't mind it um now his his was an unusual response and most people don't think that but but yeah in these days Um, if you've got uh 15 million and under of net value, there is no estate tax. And California has no estate tax or inheritance tax. Um, and so for married couples, you know, two people, we can shelter double that, 15 million, and then that amount is going to be going up with inflation every year. And so most of the planning I do is just some kind

[7:51] of uh regular planning. no involved tax planning. Uh maybe the most complicated we get is uh using both credits. So doing a a trust that might become irrevocable at the death of the first spouse. And that same kind of plan works for people who uh maybe are on their second or third marriage where there's two different sets of beneficiaries and they want to be sure that their group of beneficiaries isn't cut out if they happen to be the one that goes first. So that's normally about as complicated as we get or need to get, but we can do

[8:27] the um charitable trusts or life insurance trusts. Um uh there are some some planning strategies. And then for things beyond that, you know, we've got other attorneys we can collaborate with um to to do that. And then on the probate side, you know, most again, most of the uh probates are probably one house. Um but you know sometimes or probably the biggest probate we've handled has maybe been more like five million. Um

[8:58] >> seems like you know people at that level are going to get some advice and probably take it

[9:04] >> but still 70% of people die without having done anything. So that's where that's where the probate comes in.

[9:14] >> Yes it does. And that reflects my practice in in the sense that uh um you know the things that I get involved with are are where there was not planning done. And so now you have an intestate succession and um it it seems like that more often I should say more often leads to heirs uh fighting because there is you know no defined uh you know situation.

[9:41] >> Yeah. You know, I used to think uh when I started, you know, someone had a modest estate and they just wanted to leave it in equal shares to their kids or, you know, whatever the intestate plan was, whether the estate says it goes that well, you really don't need to do anything maybe other than powers of attorney. But what I have found is that having a will or a trust that um even if it does the same thing that the intestate would have it it does seem to cut down on conflict because people accept that well this this is what mom

[10:18] wanted or dad wanted because it's here in writing and I can't really argue with that.

[10:23] >> Um so it does have a lot of power. Um although you've you've probably seen you know they maybe the written word isn't enough for some people they didn't they didn't really understand what they were doing or they never would have left it in trust for me you know they

[10:39] >> right

[10:40] >> if they actually knew what they were signing it wouldn't have happened so it doesn't solve the problems but it helps.

[10:46] >> Yeah. It also seems to me that uh and and e even with a a will sometimes people will claim, oh well this was purposely left out of the will or this was actually in a trust and all of a sudden a trust document appears sort of magically. I'm I'm uh uh I I don't cease to be surprised by uh the ingenuity of of people to um circumvent even even a well-drafted uh estate plan sometimes. So

[11:22] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Know people well I say are always scheming. I guess we just see more of it than others because most of the time, you know, everything works the way it should and people behave themselves, but you know, the ones who don't are the ones you remember and uh make for the interesting cases. There's there's enough to keep us busy. For sure.

[11:44] >> For sure. For sure. So, uh t talk if you would a little bit. You have, you know, long experience in this. So, uh, how have what changes have you seen in, you know, in in the the probate trust, you know, handling of estates's um, business o over the time that you've been practicing? I I I think it's always good to kind of look back a little bit on on that. Um because as much as I think we want to believe that things

[12:19] aren't going to change in the future, it seems like inevitably they do. Oh, true, true. So, well, I know when I first started there were still a lot of lawyers saying, don't bother with doing a trust. You know, it just doesn't make sense. And you know, even with California where we've got a probate system that sends most things to probate if you've got real estate, um you know, or even uh the other cutoff is 28,000 uh of assets. So there's a good chance

[12:56] if if you die in California with any amount of anything, there's a pretty good chance it's going to see probate. Um, but there was kind of in the 90s into the early 2000s, there were still kind of the old school lawyers saying probate's really a better system. Don't bother with the trust. Um, take it through probate and, uh, you really are going to spend the same amount of money overall, which, you know, to my at least in my experience, more going through probate and it's going to take Yeah. a lot more

[13:32] time and people are going to be more frustrated. Um, and you know, in the end, I think people kind of did figure that out or at least uh maybe the market demanded it or the younger attorneys um like me said, well, it doesn't make sense. I cannot recommend something that I wouldn't want my parents to go through. Um and so trust planning, you know, here I I realize other states are different, but certainly for California, um it almost always makes sense. You know, I've had some clients where maybe,

[14:07] you know, a payon death uh designations are enough in their case and it works. Um and we just do a will or things like a mobile home if it's uh on leased land like in a mobile home park, that's exempt from probate. So, uh, whatever it's worth, um, you know, is exempt. And so, you know, we can

[14:27] >> work around that and probably save the client a few bucks and they still are going to have something that works well at their death. But for the most part, you know, I think the the trust seems to work better. Um uh something else that you know I've always recognized the value of a professional fiduciary like a a trustee or uh you know in older times maybe it was the bank getting involved but they seem to be less wanting to um and then you know there's a definitely the rise of the single professional

[15:02] fiduciary or small firms and uh I clients seem a lot more open to doing that I think

[15:09] >> partly because maybe the kids are a little more scattered or are busy or maybe they just have been through a bad experience with a bad trustee and uh really or want to preserve family harmony is another big one and so I've you know I've been recommending that for a long time to people but I think they're a lot more open to it these days than they used to be. Um, so that's something that that definitely seems different than, you know, 1995.

[15:40] >> Well, that's good news for my business.

[15:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think there'll be work to keep you busy.

[15:47] >> Yeah. So, I I you know, I I talk to people, you know, it seems like every week and and you know, who are trying to figure out, you know, what do I want to do when I grow up? And I say, "Hey, do what I did. you know, come get come, you know, go through the educational process. Um, and and uh and of course, these are people who already have a background that would be suitable for being a professional fiduciary. So, they're typically coming out of some kind of management or financial background. And so, you know, they they they're sort of already with the skill set. Um, but then, you know, they could

[16:24] they could take it they could take on doing that kind of thing. But but that's interesting. And you know, it one of the things I've noticed is California is still the only state where professional fiduciaries are licensed. And yet I'm involved with a case right now in Nevada where gosh, they sure would have benefited by having a professional involved because it was the sister of the deedent and another party. They really, you know, the sister had been a school teacher her whole life and she really just didn't I don't think she at all understood what she was doing. And

[17:00] I it it's unclear to me whether the lawyer explained it to her and she just didn't understand or maybe he didn't explain it to her or at least explain it to her well enough. So, there's so much that can go wrong um these days uh for for a lay person essentially handling it. And it's it seems I don't know. I'm curious to know your thoughts about this. It seems like the probate process and handling real estate and those and taxes and it just seems more complex now than it was 30 years ago. So you and I started our professional lives around

[17:35] the same time. I I mine started actually in kind of the mid 1980s, but um you know uh it it just seems like everything is more complicated now than it was before. I'm I'm curious to get your your take on that.

[17:54] >> Uh I'd say yeah that I think there is a lot more like certainly for real estate sales I think uh people might be a little more latigious than they used to be. Um, and so, you know, people have to be very careful about, you know, using the right realtor and and making sure all of the disclosures are out there. And most people are great about that, but, you know, sometimes you get the inexperienced realtor coming in and doing things that just cause problems because there are all those extra boxes to check when you're doing a a deedent

[18:30] estate sale or the conservatorship sale. And you know, if you don't follow the rules, you might blow the sale and get a buyer who's not happy, uh, and then sues, which I've seen happen. Or, you know, they they may not be damaged at all, but they're upset about the whole probate process that they didn't realize was going to happen. And so, uh, they're going to try and sue and maybe be unsuccessful, but nobody explained to them that, hey, this process is a lot more complicated. there's a judge involved and there might be other people

[19:06] coming to bid higher than your bid, you know, even though you've had your escrow open and you know, people just don't like that. So, you know, they they need to be prepared for that. Um, uh, think of what? Well, now I I lost the thought, but uh, you know, there were there are certainly some other thing. Oh, I guess I was going to say that I the other thing I found is that the research attorneys at the court uh seem to be I don't know maybe a little more prepared or something. What I've noticed is that,

[19:44] you know, and maybe when I first started, it was a little easier to kind of if something didn't quite fit in the contours of the exact probate code, um because there's almost always a probate code section that deals with your issue um in California. Um but, you know, there there's a way to finagle it to to make it fit. You know, if if people aren't objecting, well, then you know, we can find a way to make this work. And uh probably in the last 10 years I found that's a much harder to do because there are some things you know we able or used

[20:20] to be able to get a decision on something to try and take a shortcut and it's just not available to us anymore and I don't have a great argument. Uh we had one that it was essentially a it was a pension plan that we wanted to use a HEGstead petition to get it into the trust because when it was transferred from one company to another, they didn't change the beneficiaries. And so it had no beneficiaries. Well, certainly in the olden days, you know, we'd we'd get our order for the HGstead. Um it would pay

[20:55] out to the trust. Um and uh lately had one where you know the research attorney rightly pointed out that federal law says a trust cannot own uh a pension plan or retirement plan and that is true. Um so we've got to probate it now but it's going to be the same effect but a year later. um and same taxes will be paid, you know, same uh if there are penalties involved, it's the same. Uh so same result, but um I just think of that

[21:31] or even like the the probate house sales. I think there are ways to kind of work around the uh appraisals um if they didn't quite match what they needed to.

[21:43] >> But not anymore. So So that's I' I've kind of noticed. Well, we we need to be much more uh technically aware of things um because there may not be a workaround um at the hearing. And so uh knowing that going in, you know, that's probably made the things maybe a little bit harder in a sense, but I can't argue with it much because that is that is what the law says. So,

[22:08] >> Right. Right. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back because I have I have a follow-on question to what you were just talking about, Chris. Sure. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every step.

[22:44] Magnum Properties, Inc. turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. So this is Trust and Estates Weekly and I'm here with my guest Chris Johnson. Chris has been a probate and trust attorney for about 30 years now. And we were just talking about uh some of the changes that Chris has seen over the time that he's been involved with this. And he mentioned something and I've I've

[23:20] noticed this as well. The courts seem to be uh much less willing to exercise some flexibility, if you will, um in how they deal with certain things. And uh I'm I'm I'm curious as to why you think that's become the case, you know, like you said over the last you maybe 10 years or so.

[23:45] >> Um you know, I'm not sure. I noticed some judges are more willing than others. So you you don't always know what result you're going to get and then some are maybe a little more afraid to go outside of what uh the research attorney has recommended. Um, I've noticed that and you kind of get to know which judges those are. Um, but it seems like the the ones coming in, um, you know, are more likely, you know, and some get a little more comfortable with using their discretion and others don't seem to ever. Um, but I'm not sure. I,

[24:22] you know, when I started, I I'd assume, well, maybe it's because, uh, you know, they've been on the bench longer and got familiar with the the probate area. But I honestly don't know how long they'd been on the bench when I started practicing, you know, because once you're in, you realize some are around for several years. Um, and then others uh, you know, it's maybe uh maybe four or five years and then move on to something else. But I I have seen, you know, it seems like once they hit probate, they really seem to like it. Um, and so they are probably going to stay there unless they're uh so much in

[24:59] demand that they retire and then move on to mediation and uh do very well there instead. But I that's that's as best I can figure it. Um because I, you know, you wonder about them being afraid to uh uh have their decisions appealed, but I you know, I don't know what the percentage of appeals are in probate court versus others, but I have to think it's pretty low because most things aren't worth the appeal,

[25:28] >> right? Yeah. I mean, it's so costly to appeal these days. I I know one of the I have a largest state that's going through probate right now and and I there was the the judge um on a different case did have a uh a ruling appealed and and it it was overturned on appeal, but that's the only that's you know one case you know that and and these days probate judges handle seemingly hundreds of cases. Um, so they're they're so busy on the one hand.

[26:03] Um, but but yeah, it it is kind of an interesting phenomenon. So, so you know, kind of digging back again into your experience, um, what do you find are, I guess, some of the most interesting situations with which you've dealt um that that I don't know, maybe they're unusual or or they, you know, worked out particularly well for people. just I'm I'm I'm curious to we in when I was in the Navy, we used to call these sea stories, you know, things that happen

[26:38] when you're out on the ship or whatever. So, kind of the I don't know the equivalent uh you know, in in in the probate and trust arena.

[26:46] >> Well, I uh I know the um probably my favorite just because I I like collecting stuff, you know. I got my my architectural drawings behind me here and always looking for, you know, oil paintings and things, but you know, the the estates that might have some interesting stuff, you know, I was like, uh, at least seeing that and, you know, and maybe they find something that's that's worth a lot. Um because we did have one where uh the trustees and they were actually friends of this person who was an antique uh dealer

[27:22] >> uh and collector and so had a houseful of stuff. And yet the trustees who dealt in antiques themselves didn't even realize the worth of the collection. And they're about ready to let it go until they, you know, had someone come in and appraise things for the auction. and uh you know it ended up being you know instead of 10,000 it was worth more like a h 100,000 and so

[27:47] >> wow

[27:47] >> I do tell people that you know most of the time the things that your parents thought were were valuable are not going to be valuable but you know you you just don't know what those are um and so um you know I do say well you're probably going to get the opinion that it's not worth anything but it's at least worth asking because

[28:10] >> sure

[28:10] >> certainly like that there was that case but I mean pieces of jewelry it's kind of hard to tell

[28:17] >> um or some furniture uh you know like stuff that was worth 10,000 20 years ago is maybe now a thousand you know people don't want the dark wood furniture anymore

[28:28] >> right

[28:28] >> until it comes back and then the mid-century pieces you know I it might be worth 15,000 um to someone that might otherwise let it go for 200 at an estate sale.

[28:40] >> Um I just I looked up uh I was thinking about this morning um the door panels on the house I grew up in in Palm Springs. I always loved them and I didn't realize that they were actually a thing back in the 60s and 70s done by someone named Evelyn Acriman. And those panels like a door similar to that, you know, I see them for sale for 15 and $20,000 online.

[29:07] >> Wow. I know. My parents had no idea and I guess I didn't either. Um I just knew I liked it, you know. So, uh

[29:17] >> it just that that kind of stuff um it's worth checking. I did also have one estate where all the siblings were fighting over this painting and seemed like it was like some royal European figure or something. had been over their family's fireplace and they all wanted it and so but no one really knew how much it was worth. But then uh when it was actually appraised um to settle the dispute, it was from Sears and it was worth about five bucks. And so all of them said, "Oh, okay. I'm I'm fine. I

[29:52] don't

[29:56] >> but then I also I I was reading something else recently where um Vincent Price actually was asked by Sears during the 60s to sell like reprints of some famous paintings.

[30:10] >> And so he had the the Vincent Price collection and I I was wondering well was this painting one of those? And probably not because uh some of the Vincent Price ones even are worth like $15,000.

[30:23] >> Wow.

[30:24] >> Which you, you know, with something with a serious price tag, you you'd have no idea. So,

[30:29] >> that's what I tell people. It's again, it's probably not going to be a fortune, but you just don't want to find out later you threw something out that was

[30:37] >> right

[30:38] >> worth something because yeah, usually it's it's the accidental stuff that winds up being worth a bunch. and all the Hummel figures and Yadro stuff, you know, you just cannot find a home for.

[30:51] >> Yeah. I mean, I had one estate where we dug through stuff and in the middle of an an enormous pile of books, we found a coin collection that was worth probably, I don't know, 10 or 15,000. You know, a lot of it was, you know, old silver dollars, Morgan silver dollars and and peace dollars and that sort of thing. And there was a coin there from uh I want to say like 1835 or something, you know. So, uh you know, I tell people, you know, just go through all the stuff because you don't know

[31:27] what you're going to overlook if you just say, "Oh, it's just a bunch of books. I can't be bothered with it." You know, the books pro, you know, are unlikely to be worth anything. Although there could be valuable book, but you know, stuff gets people squirrel stuff away.

[31:42] >> They do. Well, or if they're going to hide money, it's like Kleenex boxes or books or

[31:48] >> Yeah.

[31:49] >> under drawers and and you know, they might keep 20,000 in the house that way. And

[31:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that same house, the the um husband owned some firearms and I was going through them and looking them over and one of them for for for people who know firearms this will ring with you. So there was a um uh it was the 45 caliber semi-automatic pistol that was carried by most uh American officers from I it's the 1914 I think cult. Uh, and uh, there have been literally probably tens of millions of these

[32:29] pistols made. And this one, the serial number was like 86,000 or something. It's like very, very low serial number. It was, you know, one of the first batches made. So, I took it to, you know, a gunsmith uh, in the, you know, town where the house was, and he said, "Yeah, this is actually worth, you know, whatever." I think it was, you know, $5,000, you know, one just, you know, and the guy just had it around for whatever he did with it. Probably went to the, you know, the shooting rage or something. So, it is it is interesting

[33:04] what you find that's valuable and and uh, you know, and the things that you think are are not some so often. Yeah, that I the one client who uh he was a collector and he did you know I guess he he just liked collecting but he also kind of did it to make some money and so he got padlocks which apparently were and uh he just uh he had at some point collection worth I well over 100,000 and but he saw at some point the market was starting to shift so he sold

[33:39] all the padlocks before they went to maybe a tenth of their value and then got into large wolf blocks instead.

[33:48] >> But I you know if you come across old padlocks too you I otherwise before him I'd have no idea that anybody would want anything

[33:56] >> right. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's funny what you know what people will pay money for. So, so I'm curious what what is or what do you what is the biggest challenge that you faced during your career uh you know a a as a lawyer? I I I can think of several things, but I don't want to sort of lead the witness here. But I I I I I think especially for people who are number one considering getting into our profession or number two find themselves,

[34:31] you know, maybe going through a probate or, you know, dealing with all of that. It'd be interesting for them to to hear, you know, what would someone with your experience would say about that. Ah, you know, it's it's probably dealing with difficult people. Um, yeah, I think you you'd think like with experience you'd get better or, you know, they have some tricks, but in the end, you know, there are just people who will not, you know, will not be reasonable. And the other

[35:06] thing I found is you you'd think, you know, they they'd at least act in their self-interest, you know, because they are being selfish and they want to take everything, but at some point, you know, they they'd realize and maybe do the math and figure out, well, which solution is going to get them the most money. And and even once it's explained to them, uh, that that's what would do it. Um, they still don't take that option. um they just want to keep fighting. And so I, you know, it's nice

[35:41] at least that, you know, I've only run across a few attorneys who are like this and lead to some crazy stories, but um more often, you know, it's just a difficult beneficiary. And in the end, you know, we those are the ones that go to trial. And uh I'm I didn't work in insurance defense long enough to know how to do a trial or discovery or any of that. So, I have a great co-consel in Pasadena that I work with on doing trials and they've done a lot and you know some cases you realize you and you

[36:17] want to tell clients, well, you know, no outcome is guaranteed. So, we really don't want to do a trial, but sometimes it is just impossible because the other side's impossible. Um, and so they've had uh had some and some really, I don't know, whacked out attorneys, you know, and then I imagine because the client, their client is just as unreasonable, that's why they find them, you know, and

[36:45] >> together they make a a team that, you know, you you just try and get to resolutions and um, you know, you go to mediation and even the mediator says, "Look, there's nothing's going to happen here." you know, they are privately, yes, they are completely whacked out and I don't know what they're thinking, but there there will be no resolution. And thankfully, we've we've had good luck at trial when we go. It's just kind of kind of painful to do that because it takes several years. It's a lot of money. Um, but uh something else I've realized, you know,

[37:20] I look at uh sometimes in probate, you know, attorneys want to get paid out of the estate and in that case they're going to have to have the court approve their bill. And uh

[37:31] >> I am proud to say our bills uh even at the end of the trial are usually half of what other firms are charging, you know, for a better result. So

[37:42] >> I am proud of that fact. I guess we're fairly lean on on that. But again, you still tell people, well, even if we're the cheaper option on trial, you really don't want to go there because it's

[37:56] >> it going to cost so much time and money to us that we'd rather make some other way. Um, but as I said, they're just I found even, you know, I'm I'm figuring I'm going in the last third of my career. I've not come up with any any secret weapons on how to diffuse that. You know, the the best is just preparing for trial, getting good evidence, and uh and being ready for it. And, you know, maybe they'd see the writing on the wall, but you know, if they're if they made it this far in life being unreasonable, you know, they're not

[38:31] gonna they're not going to change.

[38:34] >> I I mean, it's it's interesting what you say. I've I've encountered very very few attorneys who regularly practice in in you know trusts and estates who I would consider to be unreasonable or or even unethical. And in the most egregious case I think uh the firm that for whom this attorney was working did not realize what he was doing. And when they found out he disappeared, not literally disappeared,

[39:05] >> but you know, all of a sudden he was off the case and one of the partners came in and said, "Hey, um, you know, we just want to get this, you know, settled and and worked out and uh, okay, look, I I don't it happens, you know, even the bestrun firm sometimes can lose track of things that are going on. Where I find the the real egregious things happen with respect to the lawyers is when the lawyer doesn't have experience in trusts and probate and they're coming in. It's it's a very different than civil court or even family law court

[39:40] >> and they're trying to do things based on a different set of procedures and and they they just don't apply. And often times they will end up costing the estate a lot more money because of all the, you know, legal legal shenanigans. And yet if they just understood the probate process, they'd realize there is there's a process for them, their client to be heard. They just need to accept that there's no reason for extraneous uh, you know, litigation or fighting, but they can't be convinced, you know. So

[40:14] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. That that usually is it that this last one who was the definitely the worst I've come across was more an expert in cannabis law apparently. Um

[40:26] >> and but just I don't know we we'd say they'd have a settlement proposal but essentially I just call and listen to a lot of yelling with no no chance to say anything for about 10 minutes and say okay we're done you know and then there'd be more of it. Um, and that's one where, you know, on the day of trial, the judge uh essentially said told him and like pulled up past pleadings and said, "Well, I understand the arguments you want to make today, but your chance to make them would have been and then he just kind of went

[41:01] through the litany of of lost opportunities and said, "So, I am ruling against you." You know, we're basically in favor of Mr. Johnson.

[41:10] >> Wow. And at the break, the attorney walked out of the courtroom and didn't come back. So, judge said, "Well, this is the first time that's ever happened." And they sent sent the baleiff out in the parking lot to look for him, but he was gone.

[41:26] >> Wow.

[41:27] >> So, I just was and all I can figure is, well, the the bullying must work to some extent because they're still doing it and they don't know any other way. But then what happens when it doesn't work?

[41:40] >> Right. Right. And that that's all right. That that's always with with bullies once they realize that the person isn't going to give way. Often time bullies are fundamentally cowards. Right. So

[41:51] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[41:52] >> So then then they abandon the field and leave their poor client going or not their poor client but they leave the client sort of like wait a minute.

[42:00] >> Yeah. Exactly. Like what just happened? You know.

[42:03] >> Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. That's I'm that that I've never seen. I I have to admit there were times I've been tempted to walk out of court. Frustrating, but but I didn't, you know.

[42:17] >> Yeah, exactly. Like most of us have enough self-control. They're like, "Well, I'll stay and we're going to make the best of this." But

[42:24] >> yeah, not

[42:26] >> not him. So that was a good day for me. that was out in Palm Springs and rented the the condo for a whole week expecting, you know, to be out there for the week for the trial and uh packed up and went home that day, you know.

[42:40] >> Oh, wow. I was I thought you were going to say, "Oh, so I got a oneweek vacation."

[42:45] >> Oh, it's never that good. There's always stuff to be done. You know, my I work with my wife and I think she um she had something where she needed to handle it and said, "Well, I'm not going to stay out here without you." That wouldn't be fair. So,

[43:02] >> good attorney and good husband. That's unique combination.

[43:07] >> Exactly. I know what's going to make it it work or at least I hope I do. So, I I think that was the right call then, but I did want to stay. It was perfect weather.

[43:16] >> Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, you know, unfortunately, we're we're we're coming up on our time here because I know you you have a hard stop uh at at at 11 am Pacific time. So, uh, Chris, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to have you back because there there's so much more that we could talk about and it was such a great conversation, but but before I sort of wrap this up, I just any other thoughts you want to share with uh with the audience uh you know that that that have that maybe you you had come to mind, you know, during the show or had thought you wanted to say, you know, in preparation?

[43:52] >> Well, I might say just on on the planning part of it. Um, and I know we didn't didn't get as much into it, so might be fun to share some stories there, too, at some future date, but

[44:03] >> absolutely.

[44:04] >> Um, but I'll say, you know, people get a lot of advice online and part of that's why I'm I'm now doing Tik Tok stuff to combat some of that, like some of the crazy stuff that, you know, passes for expert advice. Um, but I'll just say it, you know, if you're thinking about planning, um, please at least talk with an attorney. You know, we that's why we don't charge for the first consultation. Um, because, you know, a lot of times what we'd recommend for their situation is not going to cost a lot. Um, but is just

[44:41] going to ensure the smoothest transition. And there's just a lot of things they're not aware of. And I know a lot of our business in the probate court is untangling the the self-made plans that just don't work the way they intended and it just I I you know I again I I hate it because I would say well I wish they would have come to me but they didn't and so here's our next best option to fix it. So I would encourage people to do that even in this day of chat GPT and all where you can get what seems like the right answer. Um

[45:17] but just just check with someone like me first and see if it's the best answer.

[45:23] >> So and and I will endorse because I I use chat GPT in my practice but but I I use it advisedly, right? Um because you only get out what you I remember this is very early in the whole computer uh you know development of of the use of computers. My father taught me, I was probably a teenager at the time, ego, garbage in, garbage out. Right?

[45:51] >> So depending on how you ask the questions, that will dramatically change what you get out. Even under the best large language model and uh I I've played around with that myself just to kind of see what what happens there. It really and it really takes someone with experience to understand does this even sound right? It sounds like the answer I want. But

[46:17] >> it is it's a great place to start, you know, and narrow down the search for sure. But yeah, they definitely have to check out the results after that. And I can't argue too much with it because some people have found me through chat GPT, they say. So like, well, okay, it's my friend now, but I'm not I've not figured it out yet. I tell people, you know, use it as a source for getting the questions

[46:42] >> that you can ask uh, you know, a a qualified professional so that you can get better educated, but chap GPT is not a teacher. It's it's it's a tool. So,

[46:57] >> yeah, I'm kind of looking forward to figuring it out one of these days.

[47:03] >> I I've had I've had fun using it. I I will say that it it's a great companion for figuring out creative cocktails.

[47:14] >> Well, thanks. I will use that, too.

[47:16] >> Oh, there you go. Good, good, good. All right. Well, Chris, again, thank you so much for coming on the show. If I'm just going to do a quick wrap-up and then we'll go offline and chat for a moment hopefully before you need to go. So, uh, for those of you, um, who want to get in touch with Chris, I will put his contact information in the show notes. If you have any questions about your situation, uh, you all know, those of you who watch the show regularly, this is the time for the shameless plug because you can see Chris is way too humbled to make it himself, as is true with um, all my

[47:53] guests. But you can see the wealth of experience that Chris has and just the the the wonderful demeanor, you know, a very easy person to work with. You you you won't be better served than um by by getting in touch with Chris to help you if you've got a planning issue or if you've got some kind of administration issue. So, uh all of all of Chris's contact information will be in the show notes when the when the show posts on on YouTube. And so then that just uh requires me to remind you that tomorrow at 10 a.m. is my show uh these are all

[48:28] Pacific time by the way. Tomorrow 10 a.m. is my show business lessons from the military. And then on Wednesday is my show People Making Money. So those are our uh two other opportunities to be together this week. And then of course I'll be back again seven days from today with the next edition of Trust and Estates Weekly. So Chris, one more time, thank you so much for coming on the show. For those of you who watching the show, thank you so much. I appreciate you tuning in, especially the live viewers. And just want to remind you all, as you know again, if you watch the show, Marie darling, you are my bell.

[49:06] Courage at all times, my