The WAY to WOW Shows
Hard-to-Value Assets
April 27, 2026
Automatically generated from YouTube captions; names and wording may contain errors.

[0:00] Who are you? [music] And where are you going?

[0:06] >> [music]

[0:07] >> What do you want? Hello and welcome to Trust and Estates weekly. I'm your host Kevin Bemel and I'm here every Monday at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time to talk about estate planning and trust and administration. Typically from the standpoint of people like myself who do this professionally, but also for those of you who are are not professionals, you've been appointed the executor maybe of your parents will or something like that and you're trying

[0:43] to figure out this rather opaque process. So hopefully this will give you some information and help you to communicate with your your advisers better and and make the whole process if not enjoyable, at least smoother. So I know I've had a number of episodes of late with guests. Today I'm doing a solo episode, which I haven't done for a while. And the the topic is is one that's kind of near and dear to my

[1:18] heart, which is hard to value assets. So as a former appraiser, I was actually a real estate appraiser, although because of the work that I did, a lot of which was related to estates and trusts, I oftentimes had to help my clients find someone who can who could value hard to value assets. They are kind of the the bane of of

[1:53] this area of professional practice. And

[1:57] >> [clears throat]

[1:58] >> while there are certain appraisal disciplines like real estate, like business appraisals, like equipment and machinery, jewelry, furniture, where artwork, where you will find uh you you will find qualified appraisers who handle them. Uh there are others that you just will not. I'm not going to go through the example again, but on on a I think two or three of my shows I've talked about uh one of my clients needing to get a value on a very

[2:33] particular very specific breed of horse. And it turned out that uh after calling all over the country, the only one who could do so well was one of the heirs to the estate that uh that that held those horses. So there's all any any asset that held is held by a an estate may need to be appraised or may need to be valued and the question always comes down to how do I do how how does one get

[3:08] a an accurate value from someone who if that value is challenged will be recognized as being minimally competent and best case someone whose opinions are uh not going to be successfully challenged, right? And and and so that's really kind of the backdrop to this particular subject. So in talking about why hard to value assets are such a minefield,

[3:45] what it really comes down to is there is no publicly traded or public market for these assets. So when we think about real estate, most real estate, there is some kind of market for it. Now that's particularly true with with asset classes like homes, retail properties, office buildings, industrial, even health care real estate, but as you get into more specialty types of real estate. So for

[4:20] example, I once did an appraisal on a shipping refueling facility. Not too many of those change hands, especially in in any, you know, reasonably short period of time. I once did an appraisal on a mineral processing facility. Same issues, right? So whereas shares of stock in a publicly traded company like, I don't know, AT&T or one of the Mag 7, so it's easy to figure out the value of

[4:57] shares of stock in that company as of any given really date and time because all of this information is stored. One can go to websites and and plug in the stock ticker and the date and even the time for which you want the value and it will pretty much spit it out for you. But if you have a closely held company, meaning one that that is under private ownership, it can be a corporation. So for example, my company, Bemel Holdings Inc., it's a corporation. The stock is not publicly traded. So what is a share of stock worth in my

[5:33] company? And the answer is that's a very difficult valuation to do because of the closely held nature of of the stock. So in any other type of asset, whether it's artwork, so you know, or each piece of artwork is unique. So you could say, well, you know, what is the value of this Picasso? Well, it depends and you can't just say, well, because these other Picassos sold for X, Y, and Z, therefore this one

[6:08] would sell for, you know, whatever it is. It's it's each each work of fine art is different and so while there is a market for fine art, um fine art is not highly comparable the way, for example, homes are. So private an investment in private equity, um you know, same kind of issues as a closely held business. There isn't any active market for these kinds of assets and so it's difficult to know what they're worth. So so that's that's

[6:44] one issue in dealing with hard to value assets. Another is if the estate is going to be is large enough and and the planning has and and well, and and so sorry. If the estate is large enough that it's subject to estate taxes. So now you're going to have to have an IRS review of the tax return. Minimally it's going to be a level one review and one of the

[7:19] things that the IRS is going to look at is how are the values of the assets calculated? Okay, so I'm handling one estate now where the estate is much larger than the estate tax exemption for the single decedent. There was no tax planning done to avoid to avoid estate taxes and so we submitted a return. It's been over a yeah, a year ago now. No, wait. Where are we? 26, 25, 24. Yeah, it was a year ago now, a little over a year ago.

[7:56] The the return including copies of all the appraisals was, you know, like a foot and a half thick, right? Because the accountant, I'll I'll give I'll give Roy a plug here. Roy Gia, who's been a guest on on my show before. So [snorts] what Roy wants to do wanted to do is provide competent valuations on all the assets so that hopefully the IRS would sign off at the level one audit and we wouldn't get bogged down in a level two audit, which takes time and costs money, et cetera, right? So

[8:32] one of the assets held by this estate was a closely held business and even though it was pretty expensive relative to the value of the business, I went ahead and got a a qualified business appraiser who is experienced in doing appraisals for estate tax purposes to do a valuation of the company and we included a copy of that appraisal so that the IRS would not question how we had calculated that value and therefore how how we had determined uh the estate taxes due.

[9:08] Uh by the and by the way, this the same issue can apply to gift tax returns as well. So they typically will get you know, high scrutiny from taxing authorities and so that's another part of the sort of minefield fiduciaries face when they're dealing with hard to value assets. So another issue and I I kind of hinted at at at this at the beginning was there is a litigation risk among beneficiaries. So disagreements over the sort of quote unquote, you know, true value of an

[9:45] asset can can, you know, become the the source for litigation, especially when you have unequal distributions among the beneficiaries or in a situation for example where maybe one of the beneficiaries is inheriting that hard to value asset and and as a result maybe you know another another beneficiary feels like oh it was valued too low in order to give them you know more more assets in an from another of another sword or or

[10:20] you know the person getting that asset may feel well it was valued too high and I've been cut out of what would otherwise be my rightful share of other assets. So even in the best of situations friction between beneficiaries is a reality of of you know probating an estate or even of handling a trust where you're avoiding probate and so competent valuations of hard to value assets are absolutely essential. And then finally you know

[10:57] there there is a certain amount of subjectivity to the valuation of hard to value assets especially if you're talking about something like artwork or collectibles where you know somebody may really cherish baseball cards for example or comic books right and and so the value to one person is much greater than it would be to someone else. I'm not into either one of those you know it's kind of like who cares. On the other hand I I really love vinyl and

[11:32] shellac records and so in in some ways the value that I might put on getting those is is higher than someone else right and so because of the subjectivity of hard to value assets often times their values are more volatile and so they can you know the values can change based on trends. Another aspect of that volatility is not just the subjectivity it's it's sort of

[12:07] the like like you know right now you know is this the particular thing that people want to collect. So watches are an example of that. So watches were were very very popular collectibles during the the the sort of COVID pandemic and from what I've been hearing lately

[12:27] >> [clears throat]

[12:28] >> maybe they've lost some of their desirability as collectibles. So so that if if that's the case then that could cause a drop in in the value of watches. So that that you know that's another aspect of it is sort of the trends if you will in in this case collectibles you know being able to establish the provenance the source of a particular item very very important. So you may have something you may have what you absolutely believe to be you know a

[13:04] Stradivarius violin right but if that provenance cannot be conclusively established the value of that violin would be you know significantly impaired. Same is true of artwork. So any anything like that where the the the creator of it may be in doubt that that can change the value dramatically. So all of these create a lot of uncertainty

[13:39] in the handling of hard to value assets and they make you know one's job as a fiduciary much more difficult. So I'm going to talk about three three well two categories really art and collectibles and closely held businesses and then go back to some some general thoughts about dealing with hard to value assets. So arts and collectibles first of all most of their value comes from a combination of factors including their beauty their rarity

[14:16] their the condition all of these things play into how much these are worth and in some cases the complexity. So it's important to use qualified appraisers. So whereas with real estate where appraisers are licensed in each state that is not the case for what personal property appraisers. So artwork collectibles even business interests those are personal property okay so

[14:51] there is no licensing regime for that category. However there are appraisal professional organizations such as the American Society of Appraisers and they they offer certifications to appraisers in a wide variety of assets. So if you're looking to value art or collectibles one of the things to look for is someone who has a credential from an organization like the American Society of Appraisers. If you're looking

[15:27] at jewelry gems especially you might find someone for the Gemnology Institute where again they receive special training and get a certification in that okay. So now if you're using artwork then you can use an ASA not certified an ASA credentialed appraiser but you also depending on the the what you think is the value of it you may go to one of the big art auction houses Christie's or Butterfields and

[16:02] because of their standing in the marketplace they they will be recognized as being qualified to render an appraisal or an opinion of value on on artwork or also with respect to furniture for example uh antique furniture in particular. Okay so first and foremost you want to make sure you have a qualified individual to do the valuation.

[16:36] >> [snorts]

[16:36] >> Second of all you want to collect up as thoroughly as possible documentation on the provenance of the work. So you may have a prior appraisal of it. Maybe that appraisal was done 5 10 20 even 30 or 40 years ago. Okay it doesn't matter how old it is if that appraisal documents the provenance of the piece. So the even you can hand that over to the

[17:12] current appraiser and they can use that to establish that indeed the article is genuine right because as I mentioned a moment ago if provenance cannot be conclusively established that can essentially destroy the value of that that artwork overnight. Okay so when we talk about art and collectibles in some cases the crucial factor or well the most crucial factor I know that's

[17:47] somewhat redundant is being able to prove that it's authentic. So if you're dealing with with coins or stamps so especially in the very high end of that market there are forgeries out there okay there are counterfeit coins right and so being able to establish that a particular coin or stamp that you have is genuine is critical to being able to get an accurate valuation especially if you think it is particularly valuable. Okay so so number two

[18:24] search through the documents of the decedent to see what is there that can be used to establish the provenance and authenticity of a particular item that needs to be valued. Next [snorts] there are there are issues of liquidity right so this is in fact kind of the core financial issue when dealing with hard to value assets is because they tend to be relatively illiquid meaning there's not a ready market for them it's very

[19:01] hard to determine their value right that's the difference between uh some kind of print that's widely sold and a unique piece of art right so for if a print is widely sold you know you can go on to art.com and see what it sold for it's probably not much but you can pretty readily get a get a value or at least a price for it. Whereas a Picasso or a Kandinsky or something like that while there are markets for these they're not particularly liquid often times they're

[19:38] sold through auction houses or private dealers they can take months or and sometimes even years and they can involve pretty large selling commissions in order to sell such a work. And by the way, if a large collection uh I should say if someone dies who has a large collection of artwork, for example, so trying to sell all of it at the same time could potentially depress the prices for for that those works of art uh because there's so many coming on

[20:15] and there's a limited number of buyers, and so, you know, they will the the you know, the buyers may reduce their their prices in order to compensate for kind of the flood that's the flood of of of art that's coming on the market, right? And so, again, that all has to be taken into account in order to get an accurate valuation. Finally, if if you have a a for example, a piece of art where the estate owns only part part of the work of art, maybe it owns

[20:51] uh 25% it's part of a syndicate that owns that piece of art. So, now, not only do you have the difficulty of valuing the work of art itself, but then what is what is the value of a partial interest? So, let's say you've got a a work of art and you establish uh let's say it's a painting and you establish that it's worth a million dollars, but the estate owns only 25% of it. Is that partial interest worth $250,000? Generally, that would not be the case

[21:26] because if that partial interest has to be sold while the other 75% of ownership is retained, someone buying that 25% interest is likely to consider, "Hey, no matter what happens, I'm going to be voted out or voted down by the other 75%. So, I want some kind of discount in order to take on the risk that what happens with this investment is going to be completely or at least largely out of my control. So, you know, a a 25% interest

[22:03] that you know, that would be otherwise $250,000, someone might only agree to pay $200,000 for it or $175,000 or something like that. So, there that's another aspect of valuation that needs to be dealt with. And as as illiquid as, you know, fine pieces of fine art are or collectibles, partial interests are even less liquid because they change hands even less frequently than selling an entire work. Okay? So, those are some of the

[22:38] complexities underlying art and collectibles specifically. Now, with uh closely held businesses, again, the issue is illiquidity. So, let's say somebody owns a business, make it a simple manufacturing business. Uh let's say it has gross sales of $10 million a year. Well, it would appear that that business is fair pretty valuable, right? And let's say that uh $10 million a year

[23:13] in sales and and it's been consistently generating about a $500,000 a year in net profit. Okay, but still, it's a privately held business, there's no stock being traded for it. And if that business is going to be sold, again, it's going to be sold through a business broker, an investment banker, something like that. Um not exactly the same thing as an art dealer, but probably more but but not probably, but more similar to an art dealer than it would be to, you know, somebody just

[23:49] saying, "Hey, I want to buy a thousand shares of stock in um in Meta." Right? And so, the way the business is going to be valued uh the valuation methodologies, I should say, um are are going to have to be uh different yet credible to a publicly traded uh company. So, typically, appraisers will look at some kind of income approach, uh discounted cash flow being probably the most common. Um but they may also look

[24:24] at market comparables. So, what did similar businesses sell for? Um and they may also look at some kind of asset-based approach. Um and all three of those will probably yield a different indicated value, and then those three valuations or two of the three or whatever the the appraiser is doing are going to are going to be reconciled into a final opinion of value. In that respect, it's no different than doing a real estate appraisal where you'll you'll you may have an income approach, uh sales

[25:00] comparison approach, and a cost approach. Okay? Those are kind of those are similar methodologies to the ones I just mentioned for business appraising. Uh and and then there will be a reconciliation of of two or three indicated values, typically. Uh however, because um sales of businesses are not recorded the uh in in typically with the county recorder's office the way real estate is. So, business sales are not recorded, getting accurate information is more

[25:35] difficult for businesses than it is for real estate. So, with real estate uh with homes, I mean, you can go on to realtor.com and see what homes in a neighborhood sold for. Uh you can go to a service like CoStar to get very credible data on the sales of all types of nonresidential properties, uh be it retail, industrial, commercial, office, etc. There there is no similar database of which I'm aware anyway for the sales of businesses. Okay? So, this is why it's so important

[26:13] to to engage a qualified business appraiser who has those sources of data, probably because he's been doing it a long long time and has developed those sources. Okay? And so, if as with most appraisals, the quality appraisal is undergirded by the quality of the data that the appraiser has available. And so, this is this is very this is a crucial aspect to doing a good

[26:48] appraisal of a closely held business. Um then then again, to the extent that the decedent or the estate the decedent did not and therefore the estate does not own 100% of the business. So, let's use another example like we did with the art where the estate only owns 25% of the business. Let's say the business itself is worth a million dollars. Is the estate's share worth 25 200 I'm sorry. Is the estate's share at 25% worth $250,000? The answer is no, probably not. Okay? Uh

[27:25] there's going to again be some kind of discount because someone buying it is only getting a partial interest and is likely to have little if any control over that investment. Okay? So,

[27:40] >> [clears throat]

[27:40] >> uh that becomes another factor in making closely held business interests hard to value. Now, with business interests, especially if there are multiple owners, there may be a buy-sell agreement. Okay? And that buy-sell agreement may specify what the price at which the estate will be bought out. This the estate would be contract typically would be contractually bound to that buy-sell agreement. And so, therefore, even if it would turn out

[28:15] that the interest was worth substantially more than the price set in the buy-sell agreement, the value to the estate may be what it can get, which is the price in the buy-sell agreement. So, these have to be examined. Okay? Now, hopefully, they were properly uh structured to begin with. Okay? Um and and hopefully, all the parties are going to adhere to the buy-sell agreement, which becomes another factor in determining the value of a closely held business. Uh finally, uh there are operational dependencies.

[28:52] So, let's say, for example, that the decedent was the the sort of key person in the company, and without the decedent, the business it may not even be viable. Okay? So, if that's the case, then the value of the business may be zero now that the the the decedent is has passed away, right? Now, that can be that can be, you know, difficult to prove, uh especially if the business has ongoing contracts that can still be filled. The flip side is maybe the

[29:27] business has one major client that maybe that client accounts for 75% of the income of the business. And maybe now that the decedent is gone, the client is feels, "I don't have any loyalty to this to this business anymore. I'm taking my business out you know, I'm taking my business elsewhere." Now, all of a sudden, the income from the business goes from 100% to 25%. So, those kinds of operational dependencies need to be closely examined by the uh you know, by the business appraiser to

[30:03] make sure that they've got an accurate valuation. Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be back for more. When life brings unexpected changes, managing inherited property shouldn't add to your stress. Magnum Properties specializes in probate and trust real estate management. We handle the complexities while you focus on what matters most. From property maintenance to tenant relations, from legal compliance to maximizing value, we're your trusted partner through every

[30:38] step.

[30:39] >> [clears throat]

[30:39] >> Magnum Properties Inc., turning property challenges into peace of mind. Call us today at 213-264-4396 or visit magnumprops.com. Okay. So, let's go back now to just some general issues, okay? So, uh timing in valuations matters. So, typically assets will be uh valued as of date of death, right? And unless there's some kind of wild

[31:15] coincidence where it just so happens, right? That that that an appraisal appraiser was working on an appraisal at you know, as of the time the decedent passed away, this adds another layer of complexity. Now, this is the case not just for hard-to-value assets, it's the case for all assets. So, even with real estate, which is relatively easy to value, uh but the appraisals may not be ordered until 3 6 9 months after the decedent has died, and so they're going to have to be done on a retrospective basis. Okay, so

[31:51] uh you know, that that can make it uh even for real estate, that can make it more difficult to get an accurate value because you're you're having to dig up retrospective data. Uh but but for uh for a a hard-to-value asset, uh again, the the need for a qualified appraisal appraiser becomes uh evident because the person has to be able to uh accurately determine what was the state of the market at a at a point, you know, back in time,

[32:28] right? And that can be more difficult to do than than gauging the state of the market currently, right? And so all of that needs to be taken into account. Now, there's a fundamental question that personal representatives need to decide, and that is are they going to use an alternative valuating valuation date, 6 months after death? Because the the Internal Revenue Code uh allows that to be done, and it may lower uh um estate taxes to use that that

[33:04] alternative valuation date, okay? Uh now, maybe two appraisals need to be done, one a you know, as of the date of death, and another one 6 months after death. If there's a lot of money at stake, a lot of estate taxes to be paid, it may make sense to pay two appraisal fees in order to see how much um how much the difference in tax in estate tax liability might be. Okay. So, this becomes uh this this becomes uh

[33:40] um an issue to examine in light of market movement considerations. So, if a market is particularly volatile or hard to peg, uh you may it it you may end up, you know, as a matter of fiduciary duty, having to do two appraisals because it's just not possible to know uh you know, sort of anecdotally, I hate to say it, but just you know, know well what was really happening with the market at these two

[34:15] specific points in time, right? Whereas with the stock market, we can go we can see that. With real estate, markets tend not to change particularly rapidly. Sometimes they do, but but usually not. But some of these for the the marketplace for hard-to-value assets, they can have lots of nuances in them and lots of rapid shifts that aren't particularly evident, sometimes even to experts, and so uh those market movement considerations need to be considered and appropriate decisions made as to what

[34:52] really needs to be done. Uh now, the fact of the matter is this this valuation date has

[35:41] [snorts]

[36:49] [clears throat]

[37:43] to be applied consistently. So, Make sure you get written appraisals, okay? Verbal appraisals just aren't going to cut it, okay? So, they may need to be in writing. All of the methodology needs to be documented, okay? So, whereas in certain limited circumstances, what's called a limited report uh um may be okay, generally speaking, if it's going to go to the IRS, you you want uh you know, a a a a report that can that contains all

[38:20] the methodol- methodologies used, all the calculations, that that fully explains how the experts derived their opinions, okay? While those that while the a broad scope of report like that will cost more, almost inevitably, it it's going to uh save you money if you avoid more entanglement with the IRS. Okay. Next, you want to engage a multidisciplinary team. So, in addition to valuation

[38:55] experts, you're going to want legal and tax advice by practitioners who know this, who practice specifically in this area. So, to have an you know, the for example, a business may have a lawyer who handles the you know, the the legal end of the business's affairs. That lawyer though may not have much or any experience in dealing it with trusts and estates. And so, it would not make sense to rely on that lawyer, rather you

[39:30] need someone who specializes in trusts and estates to be advising you as as the personal representative on those aspects of it, probably in conjunction with the lawyer for the business, okay? I have an estate right now where I have where that's the case and it's worked out very, very well because the the lawyers can talk kind of lawyer to them to each other and come up with the best solution. I mean, fortunately I I was a law clerk in a previous life, so I understand most of

[40:05] what they're talking about, but on the one hand we've got the the corporate lawyer for for the business who handled its legal affairs for I believe 30 years or more, right? So he knows all those aspects of the company and then you I've got the you know, the probate attorney who understands that area of the law and they work together. Okay, um same with the the tax and accounting um aspect of this this estate. I've got the long-term accountant for the company, but I also

[40:41] have a an accountant who specializes in trusts and estates and they they work together to come up with the best solution to the various issues that I face. Okay. With these hard-to-value assets especially, especially with a company if there's multiple owners. So pre-death planning is very, very important. Okay, it you will save your executor, your personal representative a huge headache and also save your estate a lot of money

[41:16] if you develop a proper buy-sell agreement for a business. Okay, and then rather while it's still that buy-sell agreement may still require an appraisal okay, if the whole process is outlined in the buy-sell agreement, okay, so then you your personal representative just works that process and there's there's not a lot of finagling that that could go on and it's just taken care of very simply and straightforwardly. Now in the case of other things like art, collectibles, those sorts of things, so

[41:53] if they're owned in in partial interests, so again having a buy-sell agreement with the co-owners would would make sense. Having said that, again the determining the actual value of the asset at the time that that one of the owners dies, that probably has to be done at that point, but it could specify, you know, who is considered competent to do that valuation, right? So let's say that there's a a syndicate that owns a you know, I don't know a valuable Picasso. I've been using

[42:28] Picasso cuz I heard someone talking about him yesterday, right? So let's say you've got a Picasso that's worth I don't know, $10 million. So there there you know, there could be a buy-sell agreement among the co-owners, number one. And number two, that buy-sell agreement it might it might specify that, okay, you know, Christie's is going to be brought in to do the valuation and that all the co-owners have agreed that Christie's is uh you know, an appropriate appraisal appraiser to to handle that valuation.

[43:03] So it reduces the chances of disputes, it reduces the chances of litigation, etc. Okay, as the personal representative you want to communicate with the beneficiaries. So I know for in my practice, generally speaking, I put out some kind of progress report once a month. Okay, in some cases I'll do it more frequently if there's a lot going on and so things are changing more rapidly, I may do them as frequently as once a week, but typically once a month. Now

[43:38] I may report directly to the beneficiaries, I may report to their lawyers, okay? In some cases I may I may on my own volition or because the court has ordered it, I may report to the court and then the beneficiaries are getting the benefit of that uh court-submitted communication, but in any in any event, uh and you can also use um NOPAs, notice of proposed actions in order if you know, if a step is going to be taken and you think there might be some controversy to that step, so then

[44:14] you can kind of get ahead of it by issuing a notice of proposed action that gives beneficiaries and their counsel an opportunity to object um and if they don't, then down the road any objection they might make might be foreclosed by the court. The court might say, well you knew this was happening, you should have said something, you know, back back when the NOPA was was issued, you know sit on it as we used to say and I think it was Laugh-In, some some show like that back in the '70s, right? So you're out of luck, right? Um finally

[44:51] prepare for audits and challenges. Assume that any hard-to-value asset is going to be reviewed and maybe challenged and so build defensibility from day one, okay? And and even if in the end you don't have to defend it still you're better off making sure that everything is carefully documented and that people are kept apprised of what's going on and everything is properly properly organized in your file, whether

[45:27] it's a paper file. I'm I'm mostly back here cuz I have my my files down there, my paper ones. Or on on your computer. I keep, you know, 99.5% of my files electronically. Okay, and that that just makes it easier, but keep them well organized. Don't wait for a dispute to arise to try and get all this data into some sort of form where you can respond timely to whatever might be demanded. Start, you

[46:02] know, make sure you have a a file organization system, whether it's, you know, computer-based or paper-based that is is, you know, thorough and that can allow you to deal with the issues in the proper way. All right, so that's that's my, you know, business advice as as a professional fiduciary on dealing with hard-to-value assets. You know, I I leave the as the as the crawl at the bottom of the screen says, there's no legal or accounting advice being given here. I leave that to the

[46:38] lawyers and accountants. Maybe I'll I'll I'll get someone on the show to talk about this particular subject from a legal and accounting standpoint, but but for now these are the issues that I encourage you to think about and to deal with when you have hard-to-value assets. So, let's see. Show slate of shows, Monday, like today, 10:00 a.m. Pacific time, Trusts and Estates weekly. Tuesdays at 10:00 a.m. Pacific time, Business Lessons from the Military. Wednesdays 10:00 a.m. Pacific time, People Making Money. And

[47:14] then every other Thursday at 5:00 p.m. Pacific time is my show Jiggers' Place where we have a cocktail and a smooze, talk about things unrelated to financing. Coming up on People Making Money starting in about a little over a month, I'm doing a mini-series called Money in Motion with my my Navy colleague and close friend John Rabino and a colleague of John's, John Clark. It's going to be John, John and Kevin. So stay tuned for that. A

[47:49] tremendous amount of information from two long-time and and very, very knowledgeable professionals in in in wealth building. So I thank you very much for joining me today. Wish you a wonderful rest of the day and signing off as I always do, Marie Darling, you're my bell.