The WAY to WOW Shows
Really Make Money as a Film Maker
January 26, 2022
Automatically generated from YouTube captions; names and wording may contain errors.

[0:00] okay so we are live and we're going to record as well there she is siri let us know so welcome to the way to wow show people making money uh this is our live feed every wednesday at 12 30 pacific time 3 30 p.m eastern time and my guest today is david nodowitz and i'll introduce david in just a minute i usually take a couple of minutes at the beginning of each show just to recap last week's show

[0:35] and for those of you who missed it last week i talked about the five steps you need to take in order to get either a well-paying job or start a business that you can really enjoy doing the work okay i'm not going to recap all the five points but if you go to our youtube channel the way to wow um the way to wow show on youtube you can watch a replay of that show and i would encourage you to watch all the shows this we're in our third season now and especially if you like cocktails take a

[1:10] look at some of the shows from the first two seasons we were doing a bit of a different format and you'll see some of the best bartenders in los angeles mixing up uh classic cocktails and and even some of their original creations that they made based on uh a particular guest or segment that we were doing it was a lot a lot of fun and uh hopefully uh at some point we will get back to doing that so for today um i i have a guest and that i've been looking forward to speaking to for a long long time i've known david

[1:45] for gosh what have we known each other for at least 20 years right a long time yeah a long time yeah yeah since we were two exactly um and david uh has one of the most interesting career progressions of of anyone that i know and here in los angeles yeah he's not into hyperbole here in los angeles you know every i think you know second or third person you meet wants to be involved in the film business and yet uh it is in a notoriously difficult business to make it in so

[2:20] you know the the streets of of los angeles are littered with people you know would-be writers and actors and directors and and even producers and they're all homeless right [Laughter] you can go interview them and they'll tell you you know i i had a my picture was set up at paramount and then they put it in turn around and here i am you know kind of thing that's that's all entertainment speak we won't we won't uh we won't translate for now uh so you know oftentimes they uh they have to find something else to do and usually it's not anything related to

[2:56] what they really love um i i have one friend who um wanted to make it in live theater um and ended up uh as a brand manager for a spirits company and and she's terrific at what she does and she can use her skills but it's not the same as you know she doesn't get the same kind of performance um uh you know kick that that one gets when when when you're on the stage so david has found a way to um do very well um at doing what he loves and so um i'm gonna let david tell you the uh the

[3:33] details of his story um of how he went from uh you know starting out trying to get involved in the sort of traditional film business and ending up as one of the foremost forensic video experts in the world um it's it's a it's a it's a like i said a fascinating career arc but so david just start us out what led you to want to be involved in film what where did the spark of that interest come from oh it's a good question um most people don't ask that question when they interview me but i started off with uh doing a lot of still photography

[4:09] honestly i loved it when i was i would travel with my parents in the summers and we'd go in motorhomes and i'd see beautiful sites and take pictures and i'd write journals about the pictures and about my travels and i loved meeting people that were unusual and interacting with them and just writing about them so i wrote about them and took pictures so then when i went into college at i was at santa cruz and one of the classes they took on the side not to be the main class was something called the film experience and the film experience

[4:45] was eye-opening for me because we they showed films that i had never seen in my local theater you know like the local i didn't know that they were these films that existed and they broke the rules of filmmaking i won't go into details but they broke a lot of the rules and they black and white and old-time films i just i was blown away and i started thinking i could make maybe documentaries because i worked you know i was enjoyed meeting people i learned enjoyed learning from people from other people and i enjoyed taking pictures and composing the shots and everything so

[5:20] i i tried right away to i'm not going to go in again into all the details but i joined the class did documentaries in santa cruz and thought i would continue doing that and also narrative films and working on them my love was really editing i loved the technical side of it and editing and i'd be alone for many hours in the dark in these booths in this in santa cruz so i went and met people when i was shooting and then i'd go back and be all alone in the dark for many hours many days in this booth

[5:55] and i just enjoyed the whole process of creating and shifting stories and you know removing things that were less interesting to create a flowing completed story so just to digress for a moment what were some of those movies that inspired you because i think people may want to check them out um i would say the i'll just name one one is called the stunt man and the stuntman broke the rules of filmmaking all throughout and but it was a narrative story um uh i think peter o'toole starred in

[6:31] if i'm not mistaken the one that said at the hotel del coronado oh now you're asking questions i don't know okay i think yeah i think that how how tall is king kong right from the movie yeah okay yeah that's a fantastic move um so it and there's other many other movies too but the stuntman sticks in my mind is something that really influenced me and being interested in filmmaking yeah i mean it's it's a great uh story for for people just like to watch movies but for people i remember because i was involved with filmmaking back then myself with with my my partner who

[7:07] directs the show and and we we probably saw that movie five times or something because it's a great filmmakers movie as well yeah so so you're in college you're making documentaries okay and now you know as as a lot of college students find eventually you've got to get out of college right and you've got to do something so what was that transition like going from college out into you know the so-called real world yeah so i had to find a job of course i wanted as i said my expertise my technical expertise was editing and so i i kept and i enjoy editing even

[7:43] today um so i stayed focused as that's my skill that's what i have to offer i'm not going to say i want to be a director you know like i didn't see myself saying that although maybe at some point i would do that but i didn't claim that so i also found a connection which is really interesting i found a person who does television news in a very specific topic which my dad's business was in and so i learned all about my dad's business and that is rare coins and this guy did a two and a half minute segment on the financial news network

[8:19] and i could be his producer like i knew i could help him with you know with questions with editing with you know shooting footage and i did that for i don't know a year i think a year and a half financial news network and through that met other people at financial news network that asked me to help them with their shows with editing and started editing half hour shows for them and then a friend of mine asked me to help him edit his feature film that he was putting together

[8:55] which i would have to do for free um so you know or very little i can't remember i think it was free and i kept my eyes open i kept looking around for other editing opportunities so that's how i kind of merged into doing other kinds of video productions and films and corporate videos down here in la and i supported myself i did uh i live with three of the guys in an apartment and uh in the beginning and all kinds of production jobs it was a lot of fun probably 10 years of that

[9:31] wow so you mentioned you met a particular person at the financial news network how did you meet him well it was a series of people i met um it was just you know honestly when you're doing good work hopefully you get you know when i'm editing something and they like the results and they need an editor and they talk to their friends at the financial news network and who's a good editor and they pointed me out [Music] so really knowing all the ins and outs of your your skill and and and

[10:06] pursuing it to the absolute best of your ability that sounds like that's what opened up the initial doors for you yeah yeah exactly um i also knew that when i saw this opportunity at the financial news network about rare coins it dawned on me i had this other skill that i never thought would be of use you know to anyone but when i when i was interested in editing and then i saw this really niche subject you know they didn't even interview anyone else i don't think it was like oh my gosh you know rare coins and you know video production you know editing

[10:42] and you graduated from you know you actually have a lot of skills and you can show us projects from college and so i just got the job it was and i knew it was perfect for me too like i knew that that i could help them a lot i was working for an anchor who had to have this show every day two and a half minutes every day on the air and had it be ready and so i was responsible for that wow so a lot of pressure yeah it was a lot of pressure actually and i forget when but it was in the morning time like you know 9 30 or so it had to be running on the air live you know so

[11:17] all the piece all the pieces had to be together and so you're building you're building um projects throughout the week for you know multiple projects that you're getting ready um i remember there was fascinating you know shipwrecks with coins on them and they would be discovered in the news and then i would get all the archival try to get as much i could from them of their footage and then edit it together and create a story about the rare coins that was like my favorite story but oh wow there was times when uh my anchor's back went out my another

[11:54] second another really amazing story was uh his back went out and he was about to go to washington dc to actually meet but senators interview them about investing in gold and silver and rare coins at a whole conference and he sent me there to be the anchor to be the reporter when i didn't want to be the reporter it wasn't something i had ever wanted to be as a reporter but they sent me with the cameraman and the cameraman's telling me what to do okay you're going to stand here you're going to say this and a couple times we

[12:29] went or maybe only once we went live which was really made me panic like i'm going to have to go live you know a national audience financial news network audience it was cable station but it was a lot of people would watch this thing back then um it got bought by cnbc the amount of jealousy from that i heard existed in that newsroom because a lot of the news people like you know the ones who write the news they want to be reporters and they rarely get the opportunity to do it because i know the subject matter about rare coins again

[13:05] they sent me to washington dc to report this stuff it's a fun memory i didn't want to continue it you know to be a reporter but the the news director i remember told everyone the whole room i was told later okay guys you won't believe this david's going live we all have to stop and watch so then it was it was a funny uh do you have a film clip of it i i have somewhere yeah yeah i have it's probably in store somewhere i haven't seen it for many many many years i bought a trench coat

[13:40] to make myself look like a reporter and had a hat i don't know if i wore the hat but i know i wore the trench coat and i was like they told me how to say it like reporting live from washington dc this is david notice for the financial news network like i didn't memorize that and i still now saying it now i haven't said that you know in 20 years or something but i had to remember all those details about what is this is what like the 1990s or something yeah yeah it would have been the early 90s like 1990s

[14:18] so so now you're you know you you've you spent sort of 10 years in the trenches of you know film production and and you know the the sort of constant needing to turn over a show every day so well the the finance news network job i kept for about a year and a half okay so after that um i went in doing all kinds of other things they they moved to new jersey financial news network i can't remember which year but i was there for about a year and a half so i didn't go to new jersey they gave me the option they said you know we're moving you can stay with us if you want but you got to move to new jersey and i was like let's see la

[14:56] new jersey i stuck with la at the time i was like no i want to be involved in film and you know stay in that world so and i had enough you know other little jobs on the side that were kind of building up and again i was looking at four other guys it was very low rent i had very low i don't have any responsibilities of a family or anything like that so i just did that and i was okay and i stayed here um so yeah i did corporate videos i did whatever i looked around on the trade magazines like daily variety and

[15:31] hollywood a reporter they had the classified sections you know before you know crazy internet so much um where you could look stuff online so you looked in the newspapers you called people it's a very uncomfortable very difficult situation when you're always looking for new work and that's what this job is like in l.a that's what job you know filmmaking is like i'd work for someone and even on the job other people cameramen or sound guys or on the phone looking for their next job so it's it's a very tense thing and i i

[16:08] haven't been involved in that for a lot of years but i still remember saying wow the successful guys they're still looking for jobs while they're on another job and i i didn't like that idea so and how how did you handle that i mean again it's a lot of stress right because you know your jobs i imagine in most cases aren't for a very long period of time right so that's why they're constantly on the phone with you know trying to line up their next gig so how how do you deal with the uncertainty the pressure the stress yeah i

[16:44] yeah you know i i did get some other side jobs like marketing writing once in a while as well because i love writing and even today in my work i i do marketing writing for my own company um so the stress was pretty you know it's a pretty real thing i love going to film so i go to film festivals and meet directors and try to you know meet them and say look your editing was okay but you could have a better editing job and i would explain that i say next film you should be hiring me free editing so i'd be you know i'd say things like that i'd

[17:19] go to the festival so but i'm always thinking about the next job and yeah it was a different way of um you know you're constantly marketing yourself it's uncomfortable it was definitely uncomfortable at times but i love films so i go to lots of films probably three films a week if not more in the theaters like i said festivals and just meet everyone i could even other people in the audience who are coming to see the director you know um and and how how did it feel constantly being having to market yourself

[17:54] because i think for a lot of people i know for a lot of people like for example in the military that's one of the biggest things they struggle with is this idea that they have to promote themselves it feels very strange because you never well i shouldn't say never but it seems like you don't really have to do that in the military and i think that's true for a lot of people in or out of the military so how did you how did that feel and how did you if you had any reluctance how did you overcome it yeah it's a good question i i wasn't so good at marketing myself at first and in fact as an editor you're in the back seat often with projects

[18:30] so what happens is you're editing a film and the film's done and then the director gets all the uh glory and all the publicity because that's you know it's his project which he just he made the decisions on in the final decisions often on the editing so your name is like not even mentioned in publicity or in marketing or even online often you know online wasn't around back then actually but yeah you know the any kind of situation the director's getting all the pr and everything so i'd be like oh i direct i edited this

[19:05] film or this project people were like oh really cool that's if i'm trying to look for new jobs so they knew the project you know and that was fine it is uncomfortable i'm a lot over that now and i enjoy the marketing but i try to find marketing that matches my personality so like give an example right now and we're going chronologically but i'm jumping ahead for a moment uh i really enjoy teaching people i enjoy the conversations i have with people so i learned that a great way i can market my company now is meeting at bar associations

[19:42] and teaching people meeting with them and speaking in front of them and showing them samples of our work it's not a marketing directly although that's what it ends up doing but it's teaching them about what we do and showing them examples that will teach them how to do their job better and in result they see how i present in person because they want someone who can testify in court if necessary and they see me teaching and they see that i can testify well so that's a great way that i found for me personally i love that it's stressful but i also love it

[20:18] and that's a good way to market myself so i think if people think about different ways that can be marketing um and find out what's best match their personality and what they like to do yeah great great point great point so you you're you know churning the you know the the short gigs for for years and years you know living with uh your you know your roommates so you know after a while it sounds like you kind of got tired of the grind was there a precipitating event that

[20:53] that you know kind of said i have to stop doing this i need to be doing something else or what what sort of spurred the transition to move to into uh you know a different direction well i wanted to get married and i wanted to have kids and i wanted to support my family and it didn't make sense even though at that point i had moved into my own apartment which was great to have my own place finally um but that still wasn't enough with all this work that i was doing documentaries feature documentaries i mean prominent

[21:29] stuff that of course documentaries don't make a lot of money necessarily but you know was making some and a lot of other projects related to that um but not enough to support a family so i a friend of mine got married and they said to me you know would you shoot my wedding i was like i'm below that you know i can't i can't shoot weddings um but they said okay well i didn't say it that way i just said no i want to enjoy your wedding like i want to enjoy your wedding they said well we have a videographer now but would you shoot the first part of the wedding just this first section um it's called like the bedeck and the tish

[22:05] it's this jew and a jewish wedding i said sure i'll shoot that part and i use my documentary skills and interviewed people and really i actually enjoyed it a lot um meeting people again meeting people learning about them asking them questions and capturing someone's really intense day like in a day that they want to capture and they they don't want to forget if they can so um they afterwards my friends said to me you did like an astounding job it was the best part of our video compared to all the other video we had

[22:40] and so it dawned on me maybe i can do this as another part of my living so i started going into that more and i did a lot of wedding videos after that a lot of bar mitzvah videos event family videos and yes it wasn't documentary filmmaking but i ended up really doing an exceptional job on these videos in fact too much in a way like i worked too hard and i perfected it too much but i started getting these higher end jobs of doing weddings i started getting the higher end clients the higher end clients

[23:15] and that was fun and i could get you know three cameras at the when they took over the hilton or whatever like the whole hotel or whatever so things that were a lot bigger and people but not everyone recognized the quality of work that i was doing and they didn't appreciate it so and i was a perfectionist which i've always been like i want everything done precisely so i did that for a lot of years too these wedding videos because i wanted to support a family i wanted my wife not to have to work outside the home and i wanted to be able to support that whole pro the whole lifestyle

[23:51] um at some point the next transition was a friend of mine who's a lawyer and i was still doing corporate stuff too but um a friend of mine who's a lawyer asked me he said i have this video and i need some help with it would you mind looking at it it's for a case i said well i've never worked on cases before you know i don't know what it's involved i'm not a legal expert i don't know what's involved he said well just look at it and see so he brought me the video it was on vhs tape i won't go into all the details except

[24:26] that it was super uh for today's standards like you know super low resolution and involves security footage and i worked on the case ended up having to testify which freaked me out completely like i was so nervous but he said just be yourself just tell the truth and you'll be fine you know so the judge asked you know how do we know that you didn't manipulate the video to to benefit your client they asked me that in court and the judge asked me i said because they tell the truth

[25:03] like i don't lie and you know i don't know what else to answer like how do i prove that i don't manipulate the data yeah it's true i could manipulate stuff i could take out frames i could change the order frames so that was a big hit actually we won the case my client might was my friend i was actually his best man at his wedding so he trusted me and i'd do a good job he gave me you know high five in the courtroom aisle you know outside the um the tunnel or whatever you know they he gave me a high five and said he answered perfectly that was the

[25:39] perfect answer i said oh okay great i don't know like i'm just so that was my first foray and then i didn't do any more with courts for another five years after that not another court case but five years later same friend calls me up because he has a super high profile case and he needed a guy he could trust who could work on it and he said i have some footage i want you to look at see if you can help me with this and it was i was like oh no i'm nervous again it's high profile i mean this is high press you know press recovering it

[26:15] and when he came he brought his part not his partner but his boss his boss was like you're asking a bar mitzvah video guy to work on your case like this is you know a national case and you're asking and i i didn't know that that was the issue but he brought him to my office they met with me and he showed me the footage and i said right off the bat i said would you like to see this section more clear it was a handheld video camera and the guy had shot footage at night and he pushed the wrong button and i

[26:51] knew because of all my experience doing camera work that he had pushed a filter on his camera it was a consumer camera it was a high-end consumer camera but it made things it changed the image and i said and i knew i had a filter that could do the negative of that i knew it could reverse the filter and this stuff had been given to the fbi and they hadn't done it they didn't reverse that section because they didn't know what they're doing the fbi sounds all fancy the fbi but really it's lower than average technology most the time and it depends on the person

[27:26] running the equipment if he knows what he's doing so i pushed the button live on my editing system for those clients and it turned around the footage and they oh my gosh they were like blown away and they said you know this looks like it could work out after that case which was a two years basically of work on a case or a year and a half and i test did i testify no i don't think i testified but i was in the courtroom for like a month operating the equipment helping the attorney with all kinds of evidence i decided i could go forward with this

[28:01] side of my business and this is what i wanted to pursue i i thought it was fascinating i got an interview with the press at that time they asked me questions after the trial was over and it was just really interesting and pretty you know um it was intense because it involved someone's life you're we're working for the defense of a police officer that could have faced 20 years in jail you know he's facing the loss of his freedom the loss of his family his income his reputation

[28:36] everything was on the line and so i really enjoyed him he was a nice guy and i enjoyed helping him so was it it was at that point then that you started i believe your company is called the national forensic video center it's the national center for audio and video forensics okay ncavf and it's a long acronym i did that on purpose to attract government agencies and attorneys that would like the fact that it's the long name it sounds more important than the acronym we've become a national center for item video forensics but we weren't that when

[29:11] i started with the name but we became that now um yeah i was since 2007 when that case that second case went to verdict i was focusing on this as my business and so at that point you stopped doing weddings and bar mitzvahs and family events and such and corporate events i did a transition i did i kept i created a new website create a new identity ncaa and i kept doing all the wedding stuff and that transition took three and a half years i think so from 2007 to 2010

[29:48] i was doing both i was a one-man band with the ncavf and a one-man band somewhat i had other people helping me with the wedding stuff always with editing and shooting and all that so i did have help with the wedding environments and stuff but it was a transition where i kept saying yes to both and and i i i think i assume by then you were married and you had children right so you're working essentially two jobs both your own companies basically yeah how did it work because

[30:24] weddings typically are in the evenings and and i'm assuming the the forensic work was you know during the day so it's like you're working day and night and yet you've you've got a wife and children so how did you deal with that dynamic um you know as your life got grew and became more complex etc it was honestly the the what the wedding stuff was what was complex and what was time consuming and overwhelming and not paying enough and dealing with the mother-in-laws and dealing with the the crazy brides and it was it really was way more stressful to deal with that stuff

[31:00] um you're right late nights coming home at two in the morning after shooting a wedding it's not pleasant at all um and you know climbing up to get a high shot on a ladder overlooking people who are dancing around and pounding and you're worried about them tripping you um i got special shoes that had hard tops to them because people would step on your feet while you're dancing and you know so i protected my feet that way so yeah it was stressful and i i i loved being again i love being at their special events because everyone's dressed up and

[31:35] looking beaut their best and you know just wonderful food and um i got to enjoy that somewhat and i got to see them enjoy it i got to interview people who are in their best behavior and i get great stories from them in their weddings but i faded it out yes i wanted that the the stuff with the courts was so nice because i'm dealing with attorneys and they never say to me what you charge that much an hour because we're talking to attorneys and they charge that much an hour so and and

[32:10] um so i love that and i left and it was during the day normal hours not on weekends although i could work on stuff on the weekends it wasn't the courts aren't open on the weekends and attorneys for the most part they want to enjoy their life too although they work really hard they understand they seem go on vacation or they understand i'm not available from friday night till saturday night you know i can talk with you saturday night no problem and it was fine no big deal they just planned their day around that they planned their time around meeting me and i could meet with them on sunday i'd come into the office no problem come in the office and say so

[32:46] it was really nice to be able to control my own and my own schedule a lot more even more now there are court dates and those are set and it's hard to get you know you really need to be available for those testimony times but but you give them parameters and you say i'm not available this day this day i'm in court this day i'm going to be in hawaii or israel or whatever and they understand and they work with me on that so it was really good and again i was running my own business so

[33:21] i'm not employable i don't think at all i mean i guess if it came to emergency i could be but i don't see myself being a good employee i like being able to determine my surroundings i like to design my office i like to write my own marketing and i like to have my own schedule and decide what i want to do at any one time because i keep changing you know i like to mix it up for myself in my life so one of the things that i think is interesting i know when i was uh in the real estate business before i joined the navy

[33:56] um you know i think like a lot of people i grew up with this you know image of attorneys were you know or they're they're horrible people they only want to cheat you you know this sort of baggage that that lawyers care and what i found was um my best clients uh were attorneys um their their level of professionalism was very high um their level of they they accorded me a great deal of professional respect um as as well which which is gratifying because a lot of you know private individuals did not they just you know

[34:31] looked at me and it it was all based on price you know from their perspective right so i'm wondering um you know for for people who are thinking about getting into a particular line of work a particular industry and they they they're you know concerned about well gosh i'll have to work with and we'll pick on lawyers just because we've been talking about them um i have to work with lawyers and and lawyers are horrible how i mean was that your perspective you know going in did you have to change that or or how did that aspect sort of um evolve as you you know as you developed

[35:08] your business and and grew your business yeah interesting question i like that um i've always found attorneys to be really good to work with for the most part there are your bad apples and you gotta be ready for that and be concerned about that um people that i learned quite early that i wanted to manage my business like a law firm i decided to use their software and ask for retainers up front all kinds of things that would mimic what a lawyer would

[35:43] expect and respect and so that was nice and like i said they never asked rarely did they ask wow your rate's so high or whatever per hour they want to be careful with the money but because it's often clients money too but they they respected our work a lot and our job is so different from theirs in terms of lawyers are very book focused and law focused for the most part they went to school that way they had to

[36:18] study and pass tests and learn all the laws they're not technically the best usually they're not good at computers and software and understanding the intricacies let's say of a piece of electronics or software or like video to take it apart so that was good that they could rely on our expertise and i could guide them and even guide them in terms of court what questions to ask the other experts what to look for in the videos and what to be ready for if the other side asks it of them

[36:56] so i enjoyed that i would say attorneys are really good to work for so if whoever you are if you can work work out a way to work for attorneys you know build a business that way towards attorneys that's a great opportunity but no matter who it is make sure you research that group if you're going into a business that's going to be interacting a lot with a certain group of people make sure your target audience is someone you want to deal with on a regular basis you know if it's uh i'm not going to yeah i was thinking like if you know you're a doctor you're going to be dealing with sick people a lot so do you like dealing

[37:32] with sick people you know you know or kind of doctors so if you're a medical expert like you're going to deal with athletes so would you like dealing with let's say uh athletes all the time if you deal with injuries to athletes maybe that's great maybe you're into athletics so i'm just giving you very specific examples but i enjoyed working with attorneys because it was such a good trust trusting interaction and on a professional level as you said it was wonderful to work with them and that's that's actually great advice to to really know you know

[38:09] the group of people that you're you're you know i had clerked for an attorney before i started my company and so i knew how law firms worked and and i i you know i had a lot i had experience interacting with lawyers and maybe that's why i found it so uh you know easy to work with them because i came out of that environment um and but you know it is that brings up an interesting point and that is we many of us have prior experiences working in in whatever area and there may be another way for us to work with that same group of people that will give us greater professional satisfaction um since we know those

[38:45] people already the key becomes that how can we serve them what can we do that will make their work easier or better for their clients et cetera et cetera which is why because you like what you did right if you like them you know you like those groups so figure out a way to deal with them i i enjoyed the interaction with my first you know my friend in court it was fascinating and yeah they the other side actually on that second high profile thing even the other side called me that bar mitzvah video guy they tried to you know try to denigrate what i was doing

[39:20] because it did because it hurt their case so badly they had to try to attack me in the work as opposed to the evidence but that happens sometimes but yeah i enjoyed working with the attorneys it's funny sometimes they they go at you like crazy in the courtroom in front of the jury and then afterwards like in the hall when the jury's not looking they're like you're best you know they're friendly with you and that was very hard for me to understand that that part of it was the hardest was like sorry you're not my friend anymore if you attacked me like that we're done

[39:56] so you know that it's interesting um and i i kind of learned the reverse lesson when i was in real estate i was like to do um expert witness work um and i was the i was the you know new kid on the block and um we were doing i was doing a case for a friend of mine who was a lawyer um i was his expert and i caught the other expert with a major error in what he had done and he'd been he'd been an expert witness for literally decades everybody knew this guy and i was pretty nervous going up against him right right and basically my lawyer nailed him

[40:34] and and and he had to admit he had overlooked an important feature you know in front of the in this case was an arbitration but it was from the arbitrator right and i thought to myself i've just made you know a lifelong enemy right because i you know here i am this nobody right who so um after we were done testifying they the they took a break and they excused both of us and we ended up walking to the elevator together and i'm thinking about i'm just standing there going i'm waiting for the you know the the blowback right and and he he turns to me and he says he says you know what

[41:11] that was a good job you did he said it was colossally stupid of me to overlook that point and and you you served your client well he says really congratulations and i realized you know this is somebody who actually was dedicated to doing good work and so when he saw what you know when somebody did good work he could respect it even if it meant that you know he he kind of got blasted and so i think in many cases that's where for lawyers that's kind of where it's coming from i mean they're going to do the best they can for their clients but

[41:47] on but when it comes down with they they respect good work you know they respect a client you know well well represented so um yeah we've had we've had like working with them yeah we had um many times when someone on the other side of us on a case will end up hiring us later so like the attorney on the other side will be realizing oh shoot you know like we really missed a lot of stuff here so the next time they get video evidence or audio evidence or cell phone evidence they'll call us but that's and that's really makes me feel good when someone on the other side who you've you know you've lost they've lost to you now

[42:23] calls you up to for help right great yeah yeah tremendous validation right yeah but the other thing is you got experts on the other side this is talking specifics about what we do but for just for a moment you get experts on ours on the other side of us video experts who i totally don't respect you know it's very frustrating to me that they're just doing it for the money whatever they they get paid a lot of money they'll say whatever the client wants and that's extremely frustrating to us so where is your business at now you know here you've been you've been at

[42:58] this now for i guess what about 12 years 11 12 years um i think you said 2010 you started your company so where where are you at now and and and what have you done over the last you know decade or so to to grow your business to get where you are yeah so one of the things that most business owners forget to do or don't know to do at all and that is you want to grow your business that means that you have to give up something to someone else you have to let someone else you have to hire people to do your job and it's very hard for people to to take apart what they do

[43:34] and give it over in little pieces to other people and say okay now you're gonna do this i'm gonna do this and it's hard to let go because they won't care so much about your business as you do because you're just paying them an hourly wage and they'll get it no matter what they do you know until you fire them if they don't if they do a really bad job so that's a very hard thing to do so the first thing i did was really easy i gave someone a reception job answer the phones for me take messages and i realized right i was like oh that's great well i don't have to answer the phone anymore but it was like an obvious

[44:09] thing the harder thing was what other pieces of my job can i break off and so i made after about i think after three years so 2007 2010 in that time i started writing up you know i looked at business plans online i tried to figure out how can i grow this business more than just me and i in 2010 i wrote up a very specific plan and all the different jobs all the different positions that i've been doing

[44:45] that i wanted i could maybe give out to other people so i broke it apart very carefully and i wrote it all up with in a paragraph form each job and what they did and i kept manipulating it and changing it and adding and taking away taking from once one job to another job and i ended up with something like 16 different jobs and i was doing a lot of them myself but i realized once i did that it was really helpful to break that apart i could then what do i like least to do what am i worst at doing

[45:21] what can i give to other people and so i started hiring more than just receptions i started i heard other people to be not just the receptionist but maybe to give them other pieces of those jobs can you do this job you just what is this person that i just hired good at besides answering the phones they're good with computers okay well let's give them some computer related work forensic related work that i could i could charge a lot more per hour but pay them a lot less you know pay them their hourly but then charge the company that i'm working for a lot more per hour to do that job i

[45:57] would oversee it i would check it but so that's what i did and i broke apart the jobs and then i hired another person to help me with editing so i'd hire in my specific case film editors video editors production people that i could oversee and i knew the language because i worked in that and i knew to look for people who did documentaries or feature films as an editor that was my next step i hired editors because i was an editor i could talk their language i put them in a separate room i said okay work on this convert this footage prepare it for me and then i'll do this next step myself

[46:32] [Music] yeah so go ahead go ahead just there was a lot of jobs like that and it's very hard because they're not going to do the job as well as you do and you need to let go a little bit and that's okay they won't do the perfect job they'll do because i said i was a perfectionist that even today i'm still am and that's good for what i do because i charge a lot more now and attorneys want perfection in a way they want to know everything about that could come about in a case they could show up in their trial because it could be used against them

[47:07] the other side might come up with this detail and it will they don't want those kind of damaging facts come out without them being ready for it so if they're ready for it fine but and if it doesn't come out in the court great it didn't come out but at least they're ready for it and my perfectionism demanded that but the people you hire they're not perfectionists necessarily and they're not as you know uh they don't have the reasons for being as careful so you really have to be on them so yeah i'm i'm a little bit of a um

[47:42] you know looking over their shoulder you know i'm a little bit of that uh in my business but i'm not gonna apologize for it yeah so and at this point um i'm gonna get some tea hold on i need to drink something with all this talking i'm not used to talking so much yeah yeah oh we're we're actually um we just have a few more minutes so oh and there you go here's your commercial show your there you go ncab f there you go yeah the national center for audio visual and visual uh forensics very nice thank you

[48:19] uh so at this point um you know where is where is the size of your firm and what are the plans for the future so i have five full-time employees now um right now and uh one of them two of them are off-site now so they um are working remotely that wasn't that was a hard thing for me but everyone's personality is different and and one of the guys is just really i trust him he does a good job and so working remotely as possible and he's just very precise he is like me in that

[48:54] way and i and i see mistakes and what he does when he sends stuff just but he is trustworthy and he does the work and i can review it and i can make changes here in the office so that works out remotely um i didn't ever expect that i could do that with new technology better and better for this i've just it's been great um but growing further i could see op if you're saying what's going to be in the future i never know i really don't know i'm just i try to adapt and grow as best i can try to see new opportunities right now

[49:30] we added on cell phones to the to our what we offer people over the last many years we've been getting better and better um handling cell phone extraction recovery of data analysis of cell phones that is something that is a new aspect to the business that i saw coming also we do a lot of 3d modeling now which was a new thing that not a new thing but we've done it i added to the business as well thinking we could do this for clients it's a natural outcome you know we scan a

[50:05] location and 3d scanner we can determine on the footage that we get what is someone's height how fast a car is going um how far people from each other when something happens things like that that are very helpful to a case um so we really i always keep my eye out for new technology and new ways to help the clients new ways to analyze the evidence i could see opening up a new office possibly outside of la because even though we work in nationally and even internationally but

[50:40] mostly nationally um clients still sometimes feel more comfortable with people locally to them but we have cases all over the country new york and i mean all the big cities and even small cities we work for police we work for da's we work for public defenders private attorneys for civil cases and criminal cases so all kinds of variety of cases we worked attorney general's office even uh for major cases so we've had a lot of stuff so i i could see opening up in one more office somewhere around the country

[51:15] to expand and you have to get a corporate jet to fly between the two yeah right sure um i uh i don't even fly first class you know i'm i'm like trying to save money all the time but but uh you know i enjoy the work we do i could see continuing to grow but um you know i have to always be up on my skills too and improve my skills personally so because i'm testifying about video evidence but video evidence is always changing like right now a lot of videos come from phones before this it was on a dvr and someone's a box

[51:52] in someone's office and we still get those but a lot of evidence now is digital on chips from the nest cameras and ring cameras and so technology is always changing and you have to be up on it you have to be educating yourself all the time and that applies to everyone so let me see in the last few minutes we have let me see if i can distill some of the the key points that you made i think first of all one of the things you you said was you need to market in a way that fits with your own personality and your own way of of dealing with things and and um i think

[52:28] that's that's a that's a great that's a great lesson whether you know a person has a business or whether they're um you know looking for that that job that they want you know these days job hunting is a marketing self-marketing function um and it's uncomfortable at first but you know if you keep doing it and do it in a way that's authentic to yourself so then you can overcome it so that that seems like that's that's number one is important number two it seems to me like you were you were willing to move out of your comfort zone when when asked to do you know that first

[53:03] bit of uh forensic video work um and i think we shouldn't underestimate that if if we want to take that next step in our professional lives we're almost for sure going to have to step out of our comfort zone um not without letting people know uh that this is what we're doing but but you know look for those opportunities i love that i do love that i do love stepping out of my comfort zone saying yes knowing my skill levels but knowing i can learn what i need to learn and knowing i can help the client and i i love those challenges so yeah i enjoy

[53:39] the challenges it's a good way to grow in your life and personally and also professionally [Music] um and so let's see you also there was another point i wanted to uh remember i probably should start writing these things down um uh oh find a group of people that you like to interact with and and make make them your clients or i would add for those people who wanna want a job make them the people that you're going to work with that make that your you know your work environment your work culture that seems to be crucial you

[54:16] know when i would coach uh people coming out of the military i would say you know the military has a very strong culture yeah most people who stay in the military for any length of time they like that culture um and and we need to look at the culture of an industry as well as an individual company uh to know whether it's going to be a good fit um and and a lot of people overlook that and there's there's there's a lot of churn in in first and second jobs out you know as people transition from windows industry to another or one area to another yeah and it's very important yes and even like you know when i meet police officers and

[54:51] most of them have been in the military it's a very similar feel to it and i could see why you know why soldiers want to be police officers it makes sense yeah for sure um i've got one last question to ask you um and and we've got about four minutes left here so what do you think is the most important quality that you have that has um helped you get to the place where you really enjoy what you're doing as well as doing well you know financially what do you think that is

[55:27] so i think you know it's a fair question talking about myself though makes me a little uncomfortable but that's what i've been doing a lot of but um it's i think uh i'm very authentic with who i am i think so i think that people see that and they resonate with that i'm just who i am i'm not trying to fake something be someone else when i prepare for trial i am completely crazily careful with all the details to understand everything about the trial i don't have the best memory so if you ask me about trial from like a year ago i

[56:02] might forget most the details but right before the trial i'm going to be crazily needing time to review everything so that when it comes to trial i can be myself i can answer the questions straightforwardly and it come and be real with the jury too so i can throw out a joke or be funny just be myself and and they feel comfortable with me and trust me i think that's very important is just when you come off slimy which i've seen experts just i wouldn't trust them you know i just feel it that's important so you want to

[56:37] look be authentic to who you are so i think that's important and when i meet clients and make put them at ease here or if i'm teaching at a bar association meeting or in someone's law firm i think that comes through as well well that and that's great and i think i i agree with you 100 we have to be authentic to ourselves or i think we're not no matter what we're doing we're not going to enjoy doing it because we're constantly worried about playing a role rather than being immersed in in whatever our profession is asking us to do so i just i just want to say say thank

[57:12] you so much for for coming on the way to wow uh people making money fascinating career that you built for yourself um and and i i wish you you know continued enormous success um i i have no doubt that that you will will continue to find that and and thank you for sharing with all of us you know your thoughts about how you got there these are things we can all replicate i was talking with someone last night i was saying you know i i'm not this is not a knock on you know elon musk or or people like that but most of

[57:48] us are not going to be that person but we can all replicate the kind of success that you've had um by following you know what usually comes down to a few simple principles and you've i think you've really highlighted those for us today so thank you very much you got it you got it i i think that people should know their weaknesses too they have to know what they're not good at and be honest with that and i am honest as much as i can to know this is not my skill this is my skill and when you do that you'll be following the path of success for sure absolutely absolutely

[58:24] so we're going to wrap things up here i just want to say for those of you viewing um if you uh want to tell somebody else about this what we're doing here on the show i'd certainly appreciate it if you want to subscribe to our youtube channel that would be terrific of course we're looking to grow and help ever more people each week and if you know of someone who has a remarkable way of making a living please let us know go to the way to wow show.com you can send us a message through there or you can put it in a comment on any of the social media platforms that we're streaming on

[58:59] linkedin facebook twitter and youtube we also promote on instagram and uh so just want to close by thanking you all for watching thank you especially for those of you who who stay with us every week and just know that we will be back here again next week at 12 30 p.m 3 30 p.m easter 12 30 p.m pacific time 3 30 p.m eastern time and thanks so much for watching and david thanks for being our guest today thank you so much kevin really appreciate being here it was a lot of fun